Re: [ros-dev] 1294 [dreimer] Fix clean for cmake trees. ...

[Alex Ionescu]

Windows 7 runs on pre-2007 computers just fine, so that's irrelevant.

Windows 7 is available as a trial, and also for free for students, and also for only 99$
as an upgrade to XP, which came out a decade ago. So there's people who don't have
99$/10 years? How did they get XP then?

Windows 7 does not take up 15GB of disk space. A fresh install of Ultimate uses 8.64GB.

If 8.64GB is too much, you can use Windows 7 for Thin PCs, which is in CTP right now. It
uses ~2.7GB of space for a fresh install, only slightly higher than XP's 1.5.

(Also, who the cares about 2.5 or 8GB when you can get a 1TB disk for 100$ these days?)

--
Best regards,
Alex Ionescu

On 2011-06-04, at 3:03 PM, Adam wrote:

>   I am aware of that. I was talking about Microsoft
> Windows and not ReactOS - and was responding to someone who suggested "Update to
> Windows Vista+, which has KTM."
>  
>  Please read the messages that are being replied to as well, other than just the replies.
>  
>  On Sun, 05 Jun 2011 04:53:43 +1000, Javier Agustìn Fernàndez Arroyo
> <elhoir(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>  
> >   Adam... ReactOS will not be Win Vista/7 ;)
> >  
> >  
> >  On Sat, Jun 4, 2011 at 8:05 PM, Adam <geekdundee(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> >  
> > > And what about people with computers older than 2007 and/or people who do
> > > not want to (and/or cannot) pay $$$ for an upgrade and/or people who do not
> > > want to install an operating system that takes up 15GB of disk space?
> > > 
> > > 
> > > On Sun, 05 Jun 2011 03:59:46 +1000, Alex Ionescu <ionucu(a)videotron.ca>
> > > wrote:
> > > 
> > > Update to Windows Vista+, which has KTM.
> > >> 
> > >> --
> > >> Best regards,
> > >> Alex Ionescu
> > >> 
> > >> On 2011-06-04, at 10:21 AM, Adam wrote:
> > >> 
> > >> A number of times (eg. .NET install/AV install) I have had it happen at
> > >>> the end of the install. Then when I attempt to uninstall it there are errors
> > >>> produced regarding it (often not just after a fresh install of Windows; I
> > >>> mean after using the computer for some time - particularly after updating
> > >>> Windows Installer) then it makes the product difficult (if not impossible)
> > >>> to uninstall.
> > >>> 
> > >>> On Sun, 05 Jun 2011 00:07:44 +1000, Zachary Gorden <
> > >>> drakekaizer666(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
> > >>> 
> > >>> And how many times does the database get corrupted?  I've never run into
> > >>>> it
> > >>>> and the conditions that would cause a corruption would equally screw any
> > >>>> other installer, since it would have to be a run that got interrupted
> > >>>> mid-install.
> > >>>> 
> > >>>> On Sat, Jun 4, 2011 at 8:58 AM, Adam &lt;geekdundee(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
> > >>>> 
> > >>>> Next will you be suggesting for people to use MMC snapins as opposed to
> > >>>>> writing standalone applications, because it is shitty standalone
> > >>>>> applications that do things and not MMC?
> > >>>>> 
> > >>>>> You can use WIX/MSI to write shitty installers too if I am not
> > >>>>> mistaken.
> > >>>>> I've seen brilliant NSIS/InstallShield installers and shitty MSI
> > >>>>> installers.
> > >>>>> And vice versa.
> > >>>>> 
> > >>>>> As an end-user I must say MSI also tends to piss me off,
> > particularly
> > >>>>> when
> > >>>>> the database gets corrupted and what not. Good concept though, but I
> > >>>>> question the way it is implemented. I have written about what I
> > think
> > >>>>> about
> > >>>>> MSI in another mail so no need for me to repeat myself.
> > >>>>> 
> > >>>>> But what I am trying to suggest is that shitty installers will be
> > >>>>> shitty
> > >>>>> installers. You can write shitty installers in
> > >>>>> 
> > >>>>>
> > SuperDuperUltraInstallerLanguageSoGoodItIsGuaranteedToMakeOtherInstallersShitTheirPantsAndGoBankrupt
> > >>>>> and they will still be shitty installers.
> > >>>>> 
> > >>>>> 
> > >>>>> On Sat, 04 Jun 2011 23:49:26 +1000, Alex Ionescu
> > &lt;ionucu(a)videotron.ca&gt;
> > >>>>> wrote:
> > >>>>> 
> > >>>>> Oh, I do believe shitty software/installers do this.
> > >>>>> 
> > >>>>>> 
> > >>>>>> Microsoft's technologies do not, however.
> > >>>>>> 
> > >>>>>> So use WIX/MSI, not NSI/InstallShield.
> > >>>>>> 
> > >>>>>> --
> > >>>>>> Best regards,
> > >>>>>> Alex Ionescu
> > >>>>>> 
> > >>>>>> On 2011-06-04, at 9:23 AM, Kamil Hornicek wrote:
> > >>>>>> 
> > >>>>>> I'm in charge of 40+ PCs running mostly XP at work. Believe
> > me when I
> > >>>>>> 
> > >>>>>>> tell you people do write their own code (or use the available
> > API
> > >>>>>>> incorrectly) for installers or some online activation
> > bullshit. I
> > >>>>>>> came
> > >>>>>>> across several installers/apps that were unable to detect or
> > use our
> > >>>>>>> proxy
> > >>>>>>> (we also use wpad for proxy autodiscovery via dns) and I
> > always had
> > >>>>>>> to
> > >>>>>>> connect that PC directly to our gateway to make stuff install
> > which
> > >>>>>>> is
> > >>>>>>> annoying as hell. I am not making this up, pay me a visit if
> > you
> > >>>>>>> think
> > >>>>>>> otherwise.
> > >>>>>>> 
> > >>>>>>> K.
> > >>>>>>> 
> > >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alex Ionescu"
> > <
> > >>>>>>> ionucu(a)videotron.ca&gt;
> > >>>>>>> To: "ReactOS Development List"
> > &lt;ros-dev(a)reactos.org&gt;
> > >>>>>>> Sent: Friday, June 03, 2011 8:20 PM
> > >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [ros-dev] 1294 [dreimer] Fix clean for cmake
> > trees. ...
> > >>>>>>> 
> > >>>>>>> 
> > >>>>>>> Again all of this is irrelevant: since I think you are a
> > Linux user,
> > >>>>>>> I
> > >>>>>>> 
> > >>>>>>>> can understand why you are confused.
> > >>>>>>>> 
> > >>>>>>>> On Windows, all HTTP communication is done by WinHTTP
> > and/or
> > >>>>>>>> WinINET,
> > >>>>>>>> nobody writes their own custom socket code.
> > >>>>>>>> 
> > >>>>>>>> WinHTTP/WinINET control the proxy settings for the
> > machine. In fact,
> > >>>>>>>> if
> > >>>>>>>> you use Google Chrome on Windows (or Safari) and go to
> > the
> > >>>>>>>> proxy/connection
> > >>>>>>>> settings, you will see "IE's" proxy
> > connection dialog --  because
> > >>>>>>>> these
> > >>>>>>>> settings/dialog are owned by the OS Library, not the
> > individual
> > >>>>>>>> applications.
> > >>>>>>>> 
> > >>>>>>>> Therefore, the installer will use 100% the same settings
> > as the web
> > >>>>>>>> browser, including the same protocol.
> > >>>>>>>> 
> > >>>>>>>> So, as I stated, if the browser can download foo.exe, so
> > will the
> > >>>>>>>> online
> > >>>>>>>> installer.
> > >>>>>>>> 
> > >>>>>>>> --
> > >>>>>>>> Best regards,
> > >>>>>>>> Alex Ionescu
> > >>>>>>>> 
> > >>>>>>>> On 2011-06-03, at 1:50 PM, Kamil Hornicek wrote:
> > >>>>>>>> 
> > >>>>>>>> whatever you use for downloading the installer has to be
> > configured
> > >>>>>>>> to
> > >>>>>>>> 
> > >>>>>>>>> connect throught the proxy and also to use its dns
> > services for
> > >>>>>>>>> host name
> > >>>>>>>>> resolving. if the installer itself isn't aware of
> > the need for
> > >>>>>>>>> proxy server
> > >>>>>>>>> (or is not able to connect through socks or whatever
> > the proxy
> > >>>>>>>>> uses) it
> > >>>>>>>>> won't be usually able to resolve the hostname
> > it's trying to
> > >>>>>>>>> connect to
> > >>>>>>>>> (depends on the exact network configuration). also
> > the default
> > >>>>>>>>> route to the
> > >>>>>>>>> internet would be missing or direct outgoing
> > connections would be
> > >>>>>>>>> blocked
> > >>>>>>>>> (which they usually are otherwise you wouldn't be
> > forced to use the
> > >>>>>>>>> proxy
> > >>>>>>>>> server in the first place) so the traffic generated
> > by the
> > >>>>>>>>> installer
> > >>>>>>>>> wouldn't have any means to reach its
> > destination.
> > >>>>>>>>> 
> > >>>>>>>>> I didn't want to derail the discussion and I
> > apologize for that.
> > >>>>>>>>> I'll
> > >>>>>>>>> shut up next time.
> > >>>>>>>>> 
> > >>>>>>>>> Kamil
> > >>>>>>>>> 
> > >>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alex
> > Ionescu" <
> > >>>>>>>>> ionucu(a)videotron.ca
> > >>>>>>>>> >
> > >>>>>>>>> To: "ReactOS Development List"
> > &lt;ros-dev(a)reactos.org&gt;
> > >>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, June 03, 2011 7:03 PM
> > >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [ros-dev] 1294 [dreimer] Fix clean for
> > cmake trees.
> > >>>>>>>>> ...
> > >>>>>>>>> 
> > >>>>>>>>> 
> > >>>>>>>>> Since online installers use HTTP, and the user got
> > the installer
> > >>>>>>>>> off
> > >>>>>>>>> 
> > >>>>>>>>>> HTTP, what would a proxy server change?
> > >>>>>>>>>> 
> > >>>>>>>>>> --
> > >>>>>>>>>> Best regards,
> > >>>>>>>>>> Alex Ionescu
> > >>>>>>>>>> 
> > >>>>>>>>>> On 2011-06-03, at 12:33 PM, Kamil Hornicek
> > wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>> 
> > >>>>>>>>>> I didn't want to spam this discussion but I
> > have to.. What every
> > >>>>>>>>>> 
> > >>>>>>>>>>> other software company also does is refusing
> > to believe someone
> > >>>>>>>>>>> might be
> > >>>>>>>>>>> behind a proxy server. If you go this way,
> > please make sure the
> > >>>>>>>>>>> installer
> > >>>>>>>>>>> doesn't need a direct connection. Also
> > online installers are
> > >>>>>>>>>>> generally a
> > >>>>>>>>>>> major pain in the ass if you don't
> > provide an offline installer
> > >>>>>>>>>>> too.
> > >>>>>>>>>>> 
> > >>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: Alex
> > Ionescu
> > >>>>>>>>>>> To: ReactOS Development List
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, June 03, 2011 5:56 PM
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [ros-dev] 1294 [dreimer] Fix
> > clean for cmake trees.
> > >>>>>>>>>>> ...
> > >>>>>>>>>>> 
> > >>>>>>>>>>> 
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Why separate installers for x64/ARM?
> > >>>>>>>>>>> 
> > >>>>>>>>>>> 
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Just do what every software company this side
> > of the century
> > >>>>>>>>>>> does: a
> > >>>>>>>>>>> 400kb installer which lets you select the
> > packages you want, and
> > >>>>>>>>>>> downloads
> > >>>>>>>>>>> them.
> > >>>>>>>>>>> 
> > >>>>>>>>>>> 
> > >>>>>>>>>>> --
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Best regards,
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Alex Ionescu
> > >>>>>>>>>>> 
> > >>>>>>>>>>> 
> > >>>>>>>>>>> On 2011-06-03, at 11:38 AM, Zachary Gorden
> > wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>>> 
> > >>>>>>>>>>> 
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Spoke with Amine and Daniel.  I've agreed
> > to the lesser evil of
> > >>>>>>>>>>> bundling the FULL cmake.  Reasons are if we
> > want the BE to be
> > >>>>>>>>>>> flexible
> > >>>>>>>>>>> enough to be used for more than just building
> > ROS, we can't gimp
> > >>>>>>>>>>> cmake with
> > >>>>>>>>>>> the belief that no one will need the things
> > we didn't include.
> > >>>>>>>>>>> This is again
> > >>>>>>>>>>> on Windows.  I remain uninvolved with
> > decisions about the Linux
> > >>>>>>>>>>> BE.
> > >>>>>>>>>>> 
> > >>>>>>>>>>> 
> > >>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Jun 3, 2011 at 10:34 AM, Colin Finck
> > &lt;colin(a)reactos.org&gt;
> > >>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>>> 
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Timo Kreuzer &lt;timo.kreuzer(a)web.de&gt;
> > wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>>> 
> > >>>>>>>>>>> My vote on this:
> > >>>>>>>>>>> CMake: bundle it, optional on installation
> > >>>>>>>>>>> x64/arm: create individual installers
> > >>>>>>>>>>> 
> > >>>>>>>>>>> 
> > >>>>>>>>>>> 
> > >>>>>>>>>>> * CMake: bundle it, go for the (minimal)
> > version without an
> > >>>>>>>>>>> installer. It's nothing
> > "exotic" to install after all, just put
> > >>>>>>>>>>> it together
> > >>>>>>>>>>> with the other utilities in RosBE.
> > >>>>>>>>>>> 
> > >>>>>>>>>>> * x64/arm: If build tool sizes are staying
> > like this, create
> > >>>>>>>>>>> individual installers. Just for testing,
> > I'll try an x86/x64
> > >>>>>>>>>>> multilib build
> > >>>>>>>>>>> of Binutils and GCC though, would be nice to
> > know how much
> > >>>>>>>>>>> smaller it is
> > >>>>>>>>>>> compared to separate x86 and x64 compilers.
> > >>>>>>>>>>> 
> > >>>>>>>>>>> So in general, I agree with Timo :-)
> > >>>>>>>>>>> 
> > >>>>>>>>>>> 
> > >>>>>>>>>>> - Colin
> > >>>>>>>>>>> 
> > >>>>>>>>>>> 
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > _______________________________________________
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Ros-dev mailing list
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> > >>>>>>>>>>> 
> > >>>>>>>>>>> 
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > _______________________________________________
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Ros-dev mailing list
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> > >>>>>>>>>>> 
> > >>>>>>>>>>> 
> > >>>>>>>>>>> 
> > >>>>>>>>>>> 
> > >>>>>>>>>>> 
> > >>>>>>>>>>> 
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > _______________________________________________
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Ros-dev mailing list
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> > >>>>>>>>>>> 
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > _______________________________________________
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> > >>>>>>>>>>> Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> > >>>>>>>>>>> 
> > >>>>>>>>>>> 
> > >>>>>>>>>> 
> > >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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> > >>>>>>>>>> Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
> > >>>>>>>>>> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> > >>>>>>>>>> 
> > >>>>>>>>>> 
> > >>>>>>>>> 
> > >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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> > >>>>>>>>> Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
> > >>>>>>>>> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> > >>>>>>>>> 
> > >>>>>>>>> 
> > >>>>>>>> 
> > >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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> > >>>>>>>> Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
> > >>>>>>>> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> > >>>>>>>> 
> > >>>>>>>> 
> > >>>>>>> 
> > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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> > >>>>>>> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> > >>>>>>> 
> > >>>>>>> 
> > >>>>>> 
> > >>>>>> _______________________________________________
> > >>>>>> Ros-dev mailing list
> > >>>>>> Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
> > >>>>>> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> > >>>>>> 
> > >>>>>> 
> > >>>>> 
> > >>>>> --
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> > >>>>> 
> > >>>>> 
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> > >>> 
> > >> 
> > >> 
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> > >> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> > >> 
> > > 
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