Re: [ros-dev] 1294 [dreimer] Fix clean for cmake trees. ...

[Adam]

On Sun, 05 Jun 2011 06:28:56 +1000, Alex Ionescu <ionucu(a)videotron.ca>  
wrote:

>  
>  On 2011-06-04, at 3:43 PM, Adam wrote:
>
> >   Many got it pre-installed with their machines.
> > Sure Windows 7 may run  
> >  on pre-2007 machines if you bought it for over six thousand bucks, but  
> >  that still doesn't resolve another issue (which i forgot to mention) -  
> >  compatibility. 
>  Windows 7 has about the same requirements as Windows XP if you do  
>  feature parity on both installs. Starting to refer to "over six thousand  
>  bucks" is absurd. 
Had no idea. I thoght it needed at least 1GB RAM and 16GB HDD space  
etcetera? That is well beyond the requirements for Windows XP isn't it?

>  
>  A P4 could run Win 7 fine, and those have been around since 2000....
>
> >  
> >  Gotta love that philosophy "who cares about 2.5GB or 8GB" - the  
> >  operating system starts doing it, and then all the programs follow.  
> >  Remember MSN Messenger 1.0? That was only a few hundred kilobytes to  
> >  few megabytes to install. Now its over 180MB to install. 
>  That includes the size of the .NET framework and many other components  
>  -- the actual install is much smaller. Much of that is bitmap, picture  
>  data as well. Also, MSN Messenger 1.0 did not do things like webcam  
>  support, file transfers, etc... so I don't understand the point of the  
>  comparison? 
MSN Messenger 1.0 did not include things like a ridiculous skin which  
cannot be changed, advertisements, etcetera either. The MSN installer does  
not include the .NET framework.

And is 180MB really needed for text chat AND webcam support? Windows  
Messenger 5.1 also had webcam support. NetMeeting had it too. They sure as  
hell weren't even 30MB large.

Here's another example: Adobe Reader - latest version has a 46MB  
installer! It does fundamentally the same stuff as its predecessors, in  
fact pretty much the same stuff as Adobe Reader 4.0 - yet the installer is  
ginormous! You can do similar stuff with Evince for example.

And a classic example: Microsoft Internet Explorer - is very large  
compared to many other browsers.

What I am trying to get at is that when developers get this attitude that  
"ah 1.5GB doesn't hurt since you can buy 1.5TB hard drives for ten bucks!" 

then the software bloat begins.

>  
> >  
> >  Which application do you want to bloat today?
> >
> >  <ps... i think the thread has been derailed> 
>  Yes, it has, I demonstrated how "upgrade to Win7" is not such a strange  
>  thing to ask, and instead of accepting defeat to my arguments, you are  
>  talking about 6000$ computers and MSN Messenger 1.0. 
Why should I accept defeat for an argument when I have not been defeated?  
How is it not a strange thing to ask? So basically you are suggesting that  
people should keep upgrading even if they do not want to? What about  
enterprise users? They will indeed run into issues when upgrading.

Given all these 'arguments' of yours then, there really is very little, if  
any, point of having ReactOS around in the first place, since according to  
you everybody is capable of shelling $$$ into Windows licenses  
unnecessarily.

Next when Windows 8 comes out will you be suggesting to drop Windows 7  
support and upgrade to Windows 8 because it supports XYZ feature?

The talk about MSN messenger 1.0 and $6000 computers - I was attempting to  
point out the attitude of a lot of developers today. "Oh lets make the  
software big, since it doesn't matter if the user has to download all  
100+MB of our installer even though our program doesn't do anything, and  
lets use all these cool frameworks and runtime libraries to make our apps  
sound cool even though they are not needed" and all that which is becoming  
more prevalent these days, compared to back then.

A great motto then for you may be "Which of the users' resources do you  
want to waste today?"

>   So I'll quit now.
>
>  --
>  Best regards,
>  Alex Ionescu
>
> >  
> >  On Sun, 05 Jun 2011 05:34:20 +1000, Alex Ionescu &lt;ionucu(a)videotron.ca&gt;  
> >  wrote:
> >
> > >   Windows 7 runs on pre-2007 computers just fine,
> > > so that's irrelevant.
> > >
> > >  Windows 7 is available as a trial, and also for free for students, and  
> > >  also for only 99$ as an upgrade to XP, which came out a decade ago. So  
> > >  there's people who don't have 99$/10 years? How did they get XP then?
> > >
> > >  Windows 7 does not take up 15GB of disk space. A fresh install of  
> > >  Ultimate uses 8.64GB.
> > >
> > >  If 8.64GB is too much, you can use Windows 7 for Thin PCs, which is in  
> > >  CTP right now. It uses ~2.7GB of space for a fresh install, only  
> > >  slightly higher than XP's 1.5.
> > >
> > >  (Also, who the cares about 2.5 or 8GB when you can get a 1TB disk for  
> > >  100$ these days?)
> > >
> > >  --
> > >  Best regards,
> > >  Alex Ionescu
> > >
> > >  On 2011-06-04, at 3:03 PM, Adam wrote:
> > >
> > > >   I am aware of that. I was talking about Microsoft
> > > > Windows and not  
> > > >  ReactOS - and was responding to someone who suggested "Update to  
> > > >  Windows Vista+, which has KTM."
> > > >
> > > >  Please read the messages that are being replied to as well, other  
> > > >  than just the replies.
> > > >
> > > >  On Sun, 05 Jun 2011 04:53:43 +1000, Javier Agustìn Fernàndez Arroyo  
> > > >  &lt;elhoir(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Adam... ReactOS will not be Win Vista/7 ;)
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Sat, Jun 4, 2011 at 8:05 PM, Adam &lt;geekdundee(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >> And what about people with computers older than 2007 and/or people  
> > > > >> who do
> > > > >> not want to (and/or cannot) pay $$$ for an upgrade and/or people  
> > > > >> who do not
> > > > >> want to install an operating system that takes up 15GB of disk  
> > > > >> space?
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> On Sun, 05 Jun 2011 03:59:46 +1000, Alex Ionescu  
> > > > >> &lt;ionucu(a)videotron.ca&gt;
> > > > >> wrote:
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Update to Windows Vista+, which has KTM.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> --
> > > > >>> Best regards,
> > > > >>> Alex Ionescu
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> On 2011-06-04, at 10:21 AM, Adam wrote:
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> A number of times (eg. .NET install/AV install) I have had it  
> > > > >>> happen at
> > > > >>>> the end of the install. Then when I attempt to uninstall it there  
> > > > >>>> are errors
> > > > >>>> produced regarding it (often not just after a fresh install of  
> > > > >>>> Windows; I
> > > > >>>> mean after using the computer for some time - particularly after  
> > > > >>>> updating
> > > > >>>> Windows Installer) then it makes the product difficult (if not  
> > > > >>>> impossible)
> > > > >>>> to uninstall.
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> On Sun, 05 Jun 2011 00:07:44 +1000, Zachary Gorden <
> > > > >>>> drakekaizer666(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> And how many times does the database get corrupted?  I've never  
> > > > >>>> run into
> > > > >>>>> it
> > > > >>>>> and the conditions that would cause a corruption would equally  
> > > > >>>>> screw any
> > > > >>>>> other installer, since it would have to be a run that got  
> > > > >>>>> interrupted
> > > > >>>>> mid-install.
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> On Sat, Jun 4, 2011 at 8:58 AM, Adam &lt;geekdundee(a)gmail.com&gt;  
> > > > >>>>> wrote:
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> Next will you be suggesting for people to use MMC snapins as  
> > > > >>>>> opposed to
> > > > >>>>>> writing standalone applications, because it is shitty standalone
> > > > >>>>>> applications that do things and not MMC?
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>> You can use WIX/MSI to write shitty installers too if I am not
> > > > >>>>>> mistaken.
> > > > >>>>>> I've seen brilliant NSIS/InstallShield installers and shitty
> > > > MSI
> > > > >>>>>> installers.
> > > > >>>>>> And vice versa.
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>> As an end-user I must say MSI also tends to piss me off,  
> > > > >>>>>> particularly
> > > > >>>>>> when
> > > > >>>>>> the database gets corrupted and what not. Good concept though,  
> > > > >>>>>> but I
> > > > >>>>>> question the way it is implemented. I have written about what I 
> > > >
> > > > >>>>>> think
> > > > >>>>>> about
> > > > >>>>>> MSI in another mail so no need for me to repeat myself.
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>> But what I am trying to suggest is that shitty installers will  
> > > > >>>>>> be
> > > > >>>>>> shitty
> > > > >>>>>> installers. You can write shitty installers in
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > SuperDuperUltraInstallerLanguageSoGoodItIsGuaranteedToMakeOtherInstallersShitTheirPantsAndGoBankrupt
> > > > >>>>>> and they will still be shitty installers.
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>> On Sat, 04 Jun 2011 23:49:26 +1000, Alex Ionescu  
> > > > >>>>>> &lt;ionucu(a)videotron.ca&gt;
> > > > >>>>>> wrote:
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>> Oh, I do believe shitty software/installers do this.
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>> Microsoft's technologies do not, however.
> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>> So use WIX/MSI, not NSI/InstallShield.
> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>> --
> > > > >>>>>>> Best regards,
> > > > >>>>>>> Alex Ionescu
> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>> On 2011-06-04, at 9:23 AM, Kamil Hornicek wrote:
> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>> I'm in charge of 40+ PCs running mostly XP at work.
> > > > Believe me  
> > > > >>>>>>> when I
> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>> tell you people do write their own code (or use the
> > > > available  
> > > > >>>>>>>> API
> > > > >>>>>>>> incorrectly) for installers or some online activation  
> > > > >>>>>>>> bullshit. I
> > > > >>>>>>>> came
> > > > >>>>>>>> across several installers/apps that were unable to detect
> > > > or  
> > > > >>>>>>>> use our
> > > > >>>>>>>> proxy
> > > > >>>>>>>> (we also use wpad for proxy autodiscovery via dns) and I 
> > > >
> > > > >>>>>>>> always had
> > > > >>>>>>>> to
> > > > >>>>>>>> connect that PC directly to our gateway to make stuff
> > > > install  
> > > > >>>>>>>> which
> > > > >>>>>>>> is
> > > > >>>>>>>> annoying as hell. I am not making this up, pay me a visit
> > > > if  
> > > > >>>>>>>> you
> > > > >>>>>>>> think
> > > > >>>>>>>> otherwise.
> > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>> K.
> > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alex
> > > > Ionescu" <
> > > > >>>>>>>> ionucu(a)videotron.ca&gt;
> > > > >>>>>>>> To: "ReactOS Development List"
> > > > &lt;ros-dev(a)reactos.org&gt;
> > > > >>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, June 03, 2011 8:20 PM
> > > > >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [ros-dev] 1294 [dreimer] Fix clean for cmake
> > > >  
> > > > >>>>>>>> trees. ...
> > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>> Again all of this is irrelevant: since I think you are a 
> > > >
> > > > >>>>>>>> Linux user,
> > > > >>>>>>>> I
> > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>> can understand why you are confused.
> > > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>> On Windows, all HTTP communication is done by WinHTTP
> > > > and/or
> > > > >>>>>>>>> WinINET,
> > > > >>>>>>>>> nobody writes their own custom socket code.
> > > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>> WinHTTP/WinINET control the proxy settings for the
> > > > machine.  
> > > > >>>>>>>>> In fact,
> > > > >>>>>>>>> if
> > > > >>>>>>>>> you use Google Chrome on Windows (or Safari) and go
> > > > to the
> > > > >>>>>>>>> proxy/connection
> > > > >>>>>>>>> settings, you will see "IE's" proxy
> > > > connection dialog --   
> > > > >>>>>>>>> because
> > > > >>>>>>>>> these
> > > > >>>>>>>>> settings/dialog are owned by the OS Library, not the 
> > > >
> > > > >>>>>>>>> individual
> > > > >>>>>>>>> applications.
> > > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>> Therefore, the installer will use 100% the same
> > > > settings as  
> > > > >>>>>>>>> the web
> > > > >>>>>>>>> browser, including the same protocol.
> > > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>> So, as I stated, if the browser can download foo.exe,
> > > > so  
> > > > >>>>>>>>> will the
> > > > >>>>>>>>> online
> > > > >>>>>>>>> installer.
> > > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>> --
> > > > >>>>>>>>> Best regards,
> > > > >>>>>>>>> Alex Ionescu
> > > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>> On 2011-06-03, at 1:50 PM, Kamil Hornicek wrote:
> > > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>> whatever you use for downloading the installer has to
> > > > be  
> > > > >>>>>>>>> configured
> > > > >>>>>>>>> to
> > > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> connect throught the proxy and also to use its
> > > > dns services  
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> for
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> host name
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> resolving. if the installer itself isn't
> > > > aware of the need  
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> for
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> proxy server
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> (or is not able to connect through socks or
> > > > whatever the  
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> proxy
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> uses) it
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> won't be usually able to resolve the hostname
> > > > it's trying to
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> connect to
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> (depends on the exact network configuration).
> > > > also the  
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> default
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> route to the
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> internet would be missing or direct outgoing
> > > > connections  
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> would be
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> blocked
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> (which they usually are otherwise you
> > > > wouldn't be forced to  
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> use the
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> proxy
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> server in the first place) so the traffic
> > > > generated by the
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> installer
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> wouldn't have any means to reach its
> > > > destination.
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> I didn't want to derail the discussion and I
> > > > apologize for  
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> that.
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> I'll
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> shut up next time.
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> Kamil
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alex
> > > > Ionescu" <
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> ionucu(a)videotron.ca
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> >
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> To: "ReactOS Development List"
> > > > &lt;ros-dev(a)reactos.org&gt;
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, June 03, 2011 7:03 PM
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [ros-dev] 1294 [dreimer] Fix clean
> > > > for cmake  
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> trees.
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> ...
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> Since online installers use HTTP, and the user
> > > > got the  
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> installer
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> off
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> HTTP, what would a proxy server change?
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> --
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Best regards,
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Alex Ionescu
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> On 2011-06-03, at 12:33 PM, Kamil Hornicek
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> I didn't want to spam this discussion but
> > > > I have to.. What  
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> every
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> other software company also does is
> > > > refusing to believe  
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> someone
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> might be
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> behind a proxy server. If you go this
> > > > way, please make  
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> sure the
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> installer
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> doesn't need a direct connection.
> > > > Also online installers  
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> are
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> generally a
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> major pain in the ass if you don't
> > > > provide an offline  
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> installer
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> too.
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: Alex
> > > > Ionescu
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> To: ReactOS Development List
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, June 03, 2011 5:56 PM
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [ros-dev] 1294 [dreimer] Fix
> > > > clean for cmake  
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> trees.
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> ...
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Why separate installers for x64/ARM?
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Just do what every software company this
> > > > side of the  
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> century
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> does: a
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> 400kb installer which lets you select the
> > > > packages you  
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> want, and
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> downloads
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> them.
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> --
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Best regards,
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Alex Ionescu
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> On 2011-06-03, at 11:38 AM, Zachary
> > > > Gorden wrote:
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Spoke with Amine and Daniel.  I've
> > > > agreed to the lesser  
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> evil of
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> bundling the FULL cmake.  Reasons are if
> > > > we want the BE  
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> to be
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> flexible
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> enough to be used for more than just
> > > > building ROS, we  
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> can't gimp
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> cmake with
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> the belief that no one will need the
> > > > things we didn't  
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> include.
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> This is again
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> on Windows.  I remain uninvolved with
> > > > decisions about the  
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Linux
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> BE.
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Jun 3, 2011 at 10:34 AM, Colin
> > > > Finck  
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> &lt;colin(a)reactos.org&gt;
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Timo Kreuzer &lt;timo.kreuzer(a)web.de&gt;
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> My vote on this:
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> CMake: bundle it, optional on
> > > > installation
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> x64/arm: create individual installers
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> * CMake: bundle it, go for the (minimal)
> > > > version without  
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> an
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> installer. It's nothing
> > > > "exotic" to install after all,  
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> just put
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> it together
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> with the other utilities in RosBE.
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> * x64/arm: If build tool sizes are
> > > > staying like this,  
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> create
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> individual installers. Just for testing,
> > > > I'll try an  
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> x86/x64
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> multilib build
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> of Binutils and GCC though, would be nice
> > > > to know how much
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> smaller it is
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> compared to separate x86 and x64
> > > > compilers.
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> So in general, I agree with Timo :-)
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> - Colin
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Ros-dev mailing list
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Ros-dev mailing list
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Ros-dev mailing list
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Ros-dev mailing list
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Ros-dev mailing list
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> Ros-dev mailing list
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> > > > >>>>>>>>> Ros-dev mailing list
> > > > >>>>>>>>> Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
> > > > >>>>>>>>> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> > > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> > > > >>>>>>>> Ros-dev mailing list
> > > > >>>>>>>> Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
> > > > >>>>>>>> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> > > > >>>>>>> Ros-dev mailing list
> > > > >>>>>>> Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
> > > > >>>>>>> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>> --
> > > > >>>>>> Using Opera's revolutionary email client:  
> > > > >>>>>> http://www.opera.com/mail/
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>> _______________________________________________
> > > > >>>>>> Ros-dev mailing list
> > > > >>>>>> Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
> > > > >>>>>> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> --
> > > > >>>> Using Opera's revolutionary email client:  
> > > > >>>> http://www.opera.com/mail/
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> _______________________________________________
> > > > >>>> Ros-dev mailing list
> > > > >>>> Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
> > > > >>>> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> _______________________________________________
> > > > >>> Ros-dev mailing list
> > > > >>> Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
> > > > >>> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> --
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> > > > >>
> > > > >> _______________________________________________
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> > > >
> > > >  --
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> > > >
> > > >  _______________________________________________
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> > >
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> > >  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev 
> >
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>  

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Using Opera's revolutionary email client: http://www.opera.com/mail/