Re: [ros-dev] Pale Moon drops ReactOS support

[Ged Murphy]

Okay, considering no other devs are chiming in on this, and Alex and I had a similar view,
I'd like to propose that we move towards a more hybrid system and remove the rule that
APIs that weren’t in 2k3 shouldn't be added.

Proposal:
  1) Add all user mode APIs directly into the code base, and do away with the
'kernel32_vista' libraries we have.
  2) Start to add kernel APIs which aren’t reliant on a particular feature. Rtl APIs are
the  obvious one as Alex highlighted, missing syscalls or enums for 'get/set info'
APIs are another obvious one.
  3) Features from later versions of NT can be added (e.g. IO cancelation, UEFI, ASLR,
etc). The supporting APIs should only be added when the underlying support is in place.
(i.e. don't stub NT6 APIs)
  4) Continue to report as NT5.2/win2k3 for now. We can consider bumping usermode to
report something newer at a later stage.
  5) In the short term add a simple compatibility mode which can provide a different OS
version for whitelisted processes. The front end could be similar Win7's '
compatibility tab in the file properties, however it wouldn't use shimeng.dll,
apphelp.dll, etc, it would just modify the versioning APIs.

IMO the above is a quick win to get newer apps running. Apps that check for OS version by
looking for APIs should now be happy due to #1. Apps which call VerifyVersionInfo /
GetVersion / etc can be tricked into thinking they're running on a later OS due to #5

David mentioned a compatibility shim would open the doors to NT6, but I don't think we
should be using it for this purpose. A compatibility shim should behave more like the
Windows one, that is it should provide 'hacks' to a more modern codebase to get
older apps to work (e.g. 9x APIs, missing flags, bugs some apps rely on, etc).
I do think the compatibility shim is worthwhile technology to add, but I think we should
use it as intended instead of trying to make it look into the future as well as the past.
(btw, didn't Alex write a tool for dumping the shim db in Windows which shows all the
'hacks' MS apply??)

Comments please.

Ged.


-----Original Message-----
From: Ros-dev [mailto:[e-mail]] On Behalf Of Alex Ionescu
Sent: 17 May 2016 19:05
To: ReactOS Development List <ros-dev(a)reactos.org>
Subject: Re: [ros-dev] Pale Moon drops ReactOS support

The project doesn't have to be hard-coded to NT5. For example, I am building a UEFI
loader/bootmgr based on Windows 10, because 2003 doesn't boot on UEFI systems.

That being said, I don't see any good reason for us not to still mainly focus on 2003
for the kernel. The kernel is NOT what's preventing apps from working, or hardware
from working. What's preventing that from working is:

1) Lacking user-mode APIs, and in some cases Rtl APIs (sure, implement Win 10 ones!)
2) Lacking hardware support for things like UEFI (I'm working on it), AHCI (we have a
student working on it), USB 3 (someone can implement this...but USB 2 barely works),
etc..etc..etc..

Find me a single device driver that *only* works on NT 6... Server
2003 is still a support MS OS, so by definition there's still drivers for it.
Best regards,
Alex Ionescu


On Tue, May 17, 2016 at 4:44 PM, Javier Agustìn Fernàndez Arroyo <elhoir(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
>   "companies and such support NT5?"
>
>  where "support NT5", i meant "drop support for NT5", sorry
>
>  On Tue, May 17, 2016 at 4:43 PM, Javier Agustìn Fernàndez Arroyo 
>  <elhoir(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> >  
> >  And why does few developers, companies and such support NT5? Because 
> >  MS dropped support for those systems. But if ReactOS revives that 
> >  support, maybe companies will support us.
> >
> >  On Mon, May 16, 2016 at 10:22 PM, Riccardo Paolo Bestetti 
> >  <riccardo.kyogre(a)live.it> wrote:
> > >  
> > >  I'd like to drop my two cents, just because I really believe in this 
> > >  project's filosofy. Since things have gotten pretty hot in the past, 
> > >  especially when someone who is not a developer intervened in a 
> > >  discussion, let me apprise you that my only intention it to bring in 
> > >  the point of view of a potential user that really wants to see 
> > >  ReactOS happen and isn't emotionally attached to the work that has been done.
> > >
> > >  The reality is that very very few manufacturers and developers still 
> > >  support NT5 and all of them are going to drop support in the next few years.
> > >  This is just a fact. NT5 is legacy software and there's nothing no 
> > >  one can do about that.
> > >
> > >  I've followed this project and this mailing list for the past five 
> > >  years and in this time I've upgraded all of the computer systems of 
> > >  my father's business to Windows 7 and then to Windows 10, because 
> > >  all the pieces of software they run dropped support for NT5, one 
> > >  after another. They still have a single machine in the whole 
> > >  building running Windows XP, for legacy software, and honestly they 
> > >  don't use it very often. In my school, pretty much the same. And 
> > >  even if someone, for whatever reason, intends to run NT5 for 10 more 
> > >  years, why should (s)he re-setup all the systems again to run ReactOS instead of keeping
> > > Windows XP?
> > >
> > >  The point is, you can either implement the architecture that runs 
> > >  all of the computer in building, or the architecture that runs that 
> > >  one legacy machine. And even that would happen if and only if you 
> > >  can achieve 100% compatibility with all of NT5 and Windows XP bugs 
> > >  and quirks and give people a really good reason to reinstall the OS 
> > >  on such machines, and sorry that's just not gonna happen.
> > >
> > >  I get why some of you may want to stick to NT5, but you have to be 
> > >  aware that if you do that ReactOS will never be used in the real 
> > >  world. No reason to stick to NT5 is good enough, since no one out there needs or wants
> > > NT5.
> > >  Hell, it would probably be easier for a business to switch from NT6 
> > >  to GNU/Linux than to go back to NT5.
> > >
> > >  Again, these are just the two cents of a guy that works in the field.
> > >
> > >  Best regards,
> > >  --- Riccardo Paolo Bestetti
> > >
> > >
> > >  Il 16/05/2016 16:42, Ged Murphy ha scritto:
> > >
> > >  But you’re missing the point. The problem is that modern software is 
> > >  leaving XP behind and focusing on Win7 as a minimum recommended requirement.
> > >
> > >  What use is ReactOS if none of the modern browsers or applications 
> > >  will run on it? It limits the OS to being a compatibility solution 
> > >  for older software, or a POS device. No one really wants to see that.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >  I think the best solution to start with is to keep reporting as 5.2 
> > >  in the kernel, but allowing developers to start moving to the NT6 
> > >  model. An mish-mash of NT5 and NT6 can co-exist as long things are done sensibly. e.g.
> > >  adding IO cancelation to our NT5 kernel isn’t going to make us 
> > >  incompatible for XP’s drivers, but it allows us to implement an NT6 
> > >  feature which hugely benefits the OS. Other obvious candidates are 
> > >  unimplemented areas such as the fltmgr . Why implement the 2k3 
> > >  fltmgr when we can implement a later fltmgr model which still loads older filter
> > > drivers.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >  Usermode should also still report as win2k3 (at least in the short 
> > >  term), but start to add NT6 APIs directly into the codebase instead 
> > >  of using a shim. We then maintain a whitelist of processes that 
> > >  don’t run on ros due to a minimum requirement issue, and they get a 
> > >  modified result from VerifyVersionInfo (and friends) to a later OS version.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >  The above changes keep things pretty simple to start with, and allow 
> > >  us to move forward almost immediately with very little infrastructure work.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >  Ged.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >  From: Ros-dev [mailto:[e-mail]] On Behalf Of 
> > >  Javier Agustìn Fernàndez Arroyo
> > >  Sent: 15 May 2016 22:55
> > >  To: ReactOS Development List <ros-dev(a)reactos.org>
> > >  Subject: Re: [ros-dev] Pale Moon drops ReactOS support
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >  "Being runnable only on old computers"
> > >
> > >  I think this is a bad understanding of the problem....
> > >
> > >  By such statement, it seems that ReactOS will only work on old computers.
> > >  And thats not true.
> > >
> > >  ReactOS may work in any computer where there is hardware drivers for.
> > >  And, as such, any software written for XP/2k3/ReactOS will work in 
> > >  that computer.
> > >
> > >  And afaik, manufacturers are still releasing drivers compatible with 
> > >  XP
> > >  :) (nVidia, for example....)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >  _______________________________________________
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> > >  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
> > >  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >  _______________________________________________
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> > >  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev 
> >  
>
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