Bugzilla is crowded with untouched bugs for so long, and you HAVE to add more crud to it? Bugs like no.6214, very usefull as we can see below:
"1)Download ClickToDesktop 2)Run in ReactOS 3)Click on the desktop to hide. It doesn't work. Apps just lost the focus.
Nothing appears in the DebugLog."
Now that is informative... Why dont you get back doing something useful for a change?
Olaf, I understand your frustration with this kind of stuff, but we do not need this kind of antagonistic language. I consider both of you to be good friends, and I would prefer not to see you two go at each other like this or let it spiral out of control.
On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 4:41 PM, Olaf Siejka caemyr@gmail.com wrote:
Bugzilla is crowded with untouched bugs for so long, and you HAVE to add more crud to it? Bugs like no.6214, very usefull as we can see below:
"1)Download ClickToDesktop 2)Run in ReactOS 3)Click on the desktop to hide. It doesn't work. Apps just lost the focus.
Nothing appears in the DebugLog."
Now that is informative... Why dont you get back doing something useful for a change?
Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
Although Olaf does indeed have a point. And vicmarcal was on IRC for a few hours going on about this as well; even when I was trying to have conversations with other developers regarding another issue.
Not that I have anything against vicmarcal, but such interruptions do not help. And the reports seem like the "It doesn't work" reports you may see from end users who do not know what the problem is.
On Fri, 06 May 2011 10:03:11 +1000, Zachary Gorden drakekaizer666@gmail.com wrote:
Olaf, I understand your frustration with this kind of stuff, but we do not need this kind of antagonistic language. I consider both of you to be good friends, and I would prefer not to see you two go at each other like this or let it spiral out of control.
On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 4:41 PM, Olaf Siejka caemyr@gmail.com wrote:
Bugzilla is crowded with untouched bugs for so long, and you HAVE to add more crud to it? Bugs like no.6214, very usefull as we can see below:
"1)Download ClickToDesktop 2)Run in ReactOS 3)Click on the desktop to hide. It doesn't work. Apps just lost the focus.
Nothing appears in the DebugLog."
Now that is informative... Why dont you get back doing something useful for a change?
Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
@Olaf, yes, i agree that devs need useful bug reports, with debug logs, and regress tests if possible.... but, its always better to have a bug report than to not to have them, isnt it?
On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 2:23 AM, Adam geekdundee@gmail.com wrote:
Although Olaf does indeed have a point. And vicmarcal was on IRC for a few hours going on about this as well; even when I was trying to have conversations with other developers regarding another issue.
Not that I have anything against vicmarcal, but such interruptions do not help. And the reports seem like the "It doesn't work" reports you may see from end users who do not know what the problem is.
On Fri, 06 May 2011 10:03:11 +1000, Zachary Gorden < drakekaizer666@gmail.com> wrote:
Olaf, I understand your frustration with this kind of stuff, but we do not
need this kind of antagonistic language. I consider both of you to be good friends, and I would prefer not to see you two go at each other like this or let it spiral out of control.
On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 4:41 PM, Olaf Siejka caemyr@gmail.com wrote:
Bugzilla is crowded with untouched bugs for so long, and you HAVE to add
more crud to it? Bugs like no.6214, very usefull as we can see below:
"1)Download ClickToDesktop 2)Run in ReactOS 3)Click on the desktop to hide. It doesn't work. Apps just lost the focus.
Nothing appears in the DebugLog."
Now that is informative... Why dont you get back doing something useful for a change?
Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
-- Using Opera's revolutionary email client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
I do not know about you but I would rather spend time dealing with reports that are detailed and concise than waste time dealing with a very vague report; whether or not the report is from a developer. Wasting time is not good. Sure better to have *concise* bug report than no bug report, but no bug report is better than *vage-and-not-explanatory* bug report IMO
Just my opinion.
On Fri, 06 May 2011 17:56:46 +1000, Javier Agustìn Fernàndez Arroyo elhoir@gmail.com wrote:
@Olaf, yes, i agree that devs need useful bug reports, with debug logs, and regress tests if possible.... but, its always better to have a bug report than to not to have them, isnt it?
On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 2:23 AM, Adam geekdundee@gmail.com wrote:
Although Olaf does indeed have a point. And vicmarcal was on IRC for a few hours going on about this as well; even when I was trying to have conversations with other developers regarding another issue.
Not that I have anything against vicmarcal, but such interruptions do not help. And the reports seem like the "It doesn't work" reports you may see from end users who do not know what the problem is.
On Fri, 06 May 2011 10:03:11 +1000, Zachary Gorden < drakekaizer666@gmail.com> wrote:
Olaf, I understand your frustration with this kind of stuff, but we do not
need this kind of antagonistic language. I consider both of you to be good friends, and I would prefer not to see you two go at each other like this or let it spiral out of control.
On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 4:41 PM, Olaf Siejka caemyr@gmail.com wrote:
Bugzilla is crowded with untouched bugs for so long, and you HAVE to add
more crud to it? Bugs like no.6214, very usefull as we can see below:
"1)Download ClickToDesktop 2)Run in ReactOS 3)Click on the desktop to hide. It doesn't work. Apps just lost the focus.
Nothing appears in the DebugLog."
Now that is informative... Why dont you get back doing something useful for a change?
Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
-- Using Opera's revolutionary email client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
Hi Caemyr!
I am quite worried you didnt notice my mental status before, as I have been around for almost 3 years now. I am trying to get over this small handicap. Meanwhile, maybe you can begin looking yourself, reflect on your overreacted email and apologize.
I am pretty easy to find on IRC so sending this kind of email is just unnecessary spam to a list that has not been created for this kind of stuff. Do you know that premise about "Talk and Share in Private before moving to Public". If not, please, learn about it.I am sure it'll help in your real life too and it is really needed when working in a project with other mates.
Now let me reply your suggestions/opinions:
Bugzilla is crowded with untouched bugs for so long, and you HAVE to add more crud to it?
I'll ignore the "crud" word in this sentence(as I'll talk about the report you pointed later). Do you mean you prefer not sending bugreports to Bugzilla? Of course I can ignore bugs when testing and not reporting to Bugzilla, but THE Tester work is reporting anything wrong. So I'll keep sending bugreports even if they get totally ignored.
Bugs like no.6214, very usefull as we can see below: "1)Download ClickToDesktop 2)Run in ReactOS
3)Click on the desktop to hide. It doesn't work. Apps just lost the focus. Nothing appears in the DebugLog."
Could you quote my WHOLE bugreport and not just a "piece of it"? http://www.reactos.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=6214 You will see not just the replication method but also: the ReactOS revision tested, a link to download the app, the Source code of the App and information about How it works. No, I am not going to make easy jokes about visual impairment because these guys have all my respect:
"r51583 ClickToDesktop: http://www.donationcoder.com/Software/Skrommel/ClickToDesktop/ClickToDesktop...
Click on the desktop to hide all windows,
Features:
- Or click at the middle part of the top of the screen.
- Click again to unhide.
SourceCode: http://www.donationcoder.com/Software/Skrommel/ClickToDesktop/ClickToDesktop...
1)Download ClickToDesktop
2)Run in ReactOS
3)Click on the desktop to hide. It doesn't work. Apps just lost the focus.
Nothing appears in the DebugLog."
And now we can talk about "how bad the bugreport is" or in your words "crud report" because not following the Wiki way of reporting it: (Paragraph extracted from our Wiki)
Reproduction method using step by step instructions.
DONE
Hardware or virtual machine configuration.
DONE
Tested ReactOS version (verify also that it does happen on nightly builds)
DONE
The version of the application tested (if any) and a download link (URL).
DONE
Screenshot of the problem if it's a graphical bug (add the attachment in Bugzilla).
It is not a graphical bug. DONE
Debug log for crashes, freezes and application errors. See Debugging to see how to obtain a high quality debug output.
There is nothing in the DEBUG LOG. Nothing as NO NEW LINE in putty after launching the app. DONE.
Choose a concise bug title.
DONE
Do not post more than one issue in a single bug report.
DONE
Plus I have added a link to the SourceCode of the app. So, Caemyr, may you tell me which guideline/s I am not following? Again, even if my bugreport is not good enough(I am open to criticism and Dev pointing me to add any useful debugchannels to obtain extra debugging), there are ways to tell it. And no, you don't know how to tell things. I am pretty offended by the way you said it, not by the content. Don't use ReactOS to help you in your personal attacks.
PD: Considering I am Spanish, that my blood is much hotter than any European around, I has been quite polite.
Its not the point of testing every random app there is. Such tests are useless, if they do not provide any precise error or in any other way show precisely any bug/deficiency in ROS. What are those for? What is the point of passing report same as in my afforementioned example (AKA app doesnt work, nothing in debug log).
You ask what is wrong with such reports?
1. No precise error; 2. No info regarding the app in gathered debug log; 3. App is not of priority list (which includes major apps, as such would not be affected by points 1 and 2);
To have such report fixed, one would first research the bug, something what you ommited, feeling content with simply stating that app doesnt work... I would understand if someone from outside of our project had reported such bugs, but for the fuck sake, you admitt you are within the project for so long. You should know well already, how bugs should be reported! Its not the first time i point out the quality of bugs reported by you, and my previous attempts to reason with you have failed. Please treat this as official warning from me then.
As for my arguments being a personal attack? Please... You seem to think too well of yourself if you think this is personal. I am simply tired of cleaning up bugzilla, to endure such garbage reports as you pasted.
2011/5/6 victor martinez vicmarcal@hotmail.com
Hi Caemyr!
As a humble follower of the ReactOS project since 2007, I have seen many arguments on the ROSDEV mailing list and IRC, as well as the official forums. Please, remember that these information channels are all public, and flaming, trolling, or whatever you call it is completely exposed to the public.
If I was to look at jojning the ROS project as a developer, and i saw these kinds of arguments on the mailing list, I would be horrified, and probably just give up and move on to another project. Please, try and keep it professional.
As to the bugreport, as a simple non-developer, i can't see anything particularly wrong with it... It clearly shows what is wrong, supplies sourcecode, which could be used to diagnose the problem, and it shows clear methods of reproduction. It also describes a clear bug in the handling of windows, which could manifest itself in the behaviour of other apps. Sure, it's not the best bug report, but it's definately better than nothing.
Yours Sincerely
Joshua Rice
On 6 May 2011, at 09:43, Olaf Siejka wrote:
Its not the point of testing every random app there is. Such tests are useless, if they do not provide any precise error or in any other way show precisely any bug/deficiency in ROS. What are those for? What is the point of passing report same as in my afforementioned example (AKA app doesnt work, nothing in debug log).
You ask what is wrong with such reports?
- No precise error;
- No info regarding the app in gathered debug log;
- App is not of priority list (which includes major apps, as such would not be affected by points 1 and 2);
To have such report fixed, one would first research the bug, something what you ommited, feeling content with simply stating that app doesnt work... I would understand if someone from outside of our project had reported such bugs, but for the fuck sake, you admitt you are within the project for so long. You should know well already, how bugs should be reported! Its not the first time i point out the quality of bugs reported by you, and my previous attempts to reason with you have failed. Please treat this as official warning from me then.
As for my arguments being a personal attack? Please... You seem to think too well of yourself if you think this is personal. I am simply tired of cleaning up bugzilla, to endure such garbage reports as you pasted.
2011/5/6 victor martinez vicmarcal@hotmail.com Hi Caemyr!
Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
Hi Sir Caemyr! Please I am still waiting your public apologies because your offensive email.
Its not the point of testing every random app there is. Such tests are useless, if they do not provide any precise error or in any other way show precisely any bug/deficiency in ROS. What >are those for? What is the point of passing report same as in my afforementioned example (AKA app doesnt work, nothing in debug log).
The error is quite precise. The app has just one functionality: "Click on the desktop to hide all windows". And the app doesnt work. So if you mix both statements (or if you just read the bugreport Title) you'll discover that the bug is: "ClickToDesktop is not hidding/unhidding the Windows in ReactOS". About defining it as a "every random app", I disagree. This one is about message handling, and iirc, jimtabor is now quite focused in message handling. Even more, most of my yesterday bugreports are about keyboard message handling.So maybe these "random (opensource) apps" could be of any help for Jim. But of course you have tested the app before overreacting.Haven't you?
Now the interesting points:
- No precise error;
Disagree. I have been as precise as I can. Caemyr, maybe you can tell me if the bug is in "Desktop doesn't recive my mouse click so the app doesn't send the messages to minimize recursively the windows" or if the bug is "directly in Minimizing/Maximizing message handling"? I can't,so I prefer to not mislead the Dev letting him to decide where is the bug.
- No info regarding the app in gathered debug log;
There is no DebugLog as there isn't any new line in Putty, as I said in the bugreport.
- App is not of priority list (which includes major apps, as such would not be affected by points 1 and 2);
Could you point me to that "priority list"?Do you mean you prefer a bugreport of "MSWord2007 not installing" instead a bugreport of a small opensource app (or better said, a script) which tests 2 or 3 Win32 combined functionalities?
Evenmore, where is that 3rd point about "App is not of priority list" in the File bugs guideline?
Summing up: Invalid bugreports are those which doesn't follow the Wiki guidelines, not your "own" guidelines or your "own" priorities.
To have such report fixed, one would first research the bug, something what you ommited, feeling content with simply stating that app doesnt work...
Could you pointed me where in "wiki" it's said that the bug should be "researched"?And what do you mean with "research"? Should I find which API is failing?Researching a bug is optionally if it is not then we can begin closing most of the bugreports as Invalid.
Its not the first time i point out the quality of bugs reported by you, and my previous attempts to reason with you have failed.
Please show me my "Invalid" bugs until yesterday. Could you describe mi un-quality bugs?I can: 1)You TOLD me to modify "regressions" to "REGRESSION" in 7 or 8 bugreports titles so they can be found by the Wiki Regressions Buglist script. I DID the changes in most of them after your request, I just missed a couple (damn Bugzilla search) and you modify them. Is that a failed "attempt to reason"?
2)You TOLD me to modify "User32:msg regression" to "User32_winetest:msg". I DID in 7 or 8 bugreport titles too.I didn't change all because my Internet reliability, when I was able to reconnect I found that you have changed the missing ones.Thanks. Is that a failed "attempt to reason"?
Any other?Please links, not words.
Please treat this as official warning from me then.
Official warning??Lol. No comments. To avoid a second one I have added a "Sir" in the greetings. But I am curious, what happens after the 2nd Official Caemyr warning? Can I give you an Official warning because your overreacted offending email?
Yours faithfully,
Vicmarcal
vicmarcal - I have a lot of mental conditions and a disability. In fact these affect me enough (as well as other work) that I find it difficult to make real contributions to ROS other than the occasional patch here and there. If there is a problem it may be worth letting people know about it - at least in IRC - so that this sort of thing does not happen again.
After all how can one help if one does not understand the problem.
On Fri, 06 May 2011 18:23:22 +1000, victor martinez vicmarcal@hotmail.com wrote:
Hi Caemyr!
I am quite worried you didnt notice my mental status before, as I have been around for almost 3 years now. I am trying to get over this small handicap. Meanwhile, maybe you can begin looking yourself, reflect on your overreacted email and apologize.
I am pretty easy to find on IRC so sending this kind of email is just unnecessary spam to a list that has not been created for this kind of stuff. Do you know that premise about "Talk and Share in Private before moving to Public". If not, please, learn about it.I am sure it'll help in your real life too and it is really needed when working in a project with other mates.
Now let me reply your suggestions/opinions:
Bugzilla is crowded with untouched bugs for so long, and you HAVE to add more crud to it?
I'll ignore the "crud" word in this sentence(as I'll talk about the report you pointed later). Do you mean you prefer not sending bugreports to Bugzilla? Of course I can ignore bugs when testing and not reporting to Bugzilla, but THE Tester work is reporting anything wrong. So I'll keep sending bugreports even if they get totally ignored.
Bugs like no.6214, very usefull as we can see below: "1)Download ClickToDesktop 2)Run in ReactOS
3)Click on the desktop to hide. It doesn't work. Apps just lost the focus. Nothing appears in the DebugLog."
Could you quote my WHOLE bugreport and not just a "piece of it"? http://www.reactos.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=6214 You will see not just the replication method but also: the ReactOS revision tested, a link to download the app, the Source code of the App and information about How it works. No, I am not going to make easy jokes about visual impairment because these guys have all my respect:
"r51583 ClickToDesktop: http://www.donationcoder.com/Software/Skrommel/ClickToDesktop/ClickToDesktop...
Click on the desktop to hide all windows,
Features:
Or click at the middle part of the top of the screen.
Click again to unhide.
SourceCode: http://www.donationcoder.com/Software/Skrommel/ClickToDesktop/ClickToDesktop...
1)Download ClickToDesktop
2)Run in ReactOS
3)Click on the desktop to hide. It doesn't work. Apps just lost the focus.
Nothing appears in the DebugLog."
And now we can talk about "how bad the bugreport is" or in your words "crud report" because not following the Wiki way of reporting it: (Paragraph extracted from our Wiki)
Reproduction method using step by step instructions.
DONE
Hardware or virtual machine configuration.
DONE
Tested ReactOS version (verify also that it does happen on nightly builds)
DONE
The version of the application tested (if any) and a download link (URL).
DONE
Screenshot of the problem if it's a graphical bug (add the attachment in Bugzilla).
It is not a graphical bug. DONE
Debug log for crashes, freezes and application errors. See Debugging to see how to obtain a high quality debug output.
There is nothing in the DEBUG LOG. Nothing as NO NEW LINE in putty after launching the app. DONE.
Choose a concise bug title.
DONE
Do not post more than one issue in a single bug report.
DONE
Plus I have added a link to the SourceCode of the app. So, Caemyr, may you tell me which guideline/s I am not following? Again, even if my bugreport is not good enough(I am open to criticism and Dev pointing me to add any useful debugchannels to obtain extra debugging), there are ways to tell it. And no, you don't know how to tell things. I am pretty offended by the way you said it, not by the content. Don't use ReactOS to help you in your personal attacks.
PD: Considering I am Spanish, that my blood is much hotter than any European around, I has been quite polite.
In case of anyone having any doubt, my reference to craziness/madness in initial message was purely a figure of speech.
Please take this offline, this is not a discussion for ros-dev.
Thanks.
From: ros-dev-bounces@reactos.org [mailto:ros-dev-bounces@reactos.org] On Behalf Of victor martinez Sent: 06 May 2011 11:35 To: ros-dev@reactos.org Subject: Re: [ros-dev] Vicmarcal - are you mad?
In case of anyone having any doubt, my reference to craziness/madness in
initial message was purely a figure of speech.
In case of anyone having any doubt, his reference to craziness/madness in initial message was purely a way to offend.
Yours faithfully, Sir Caemyr.
Okay guys... Enough of it, not need to give such an image of the ReactOS project.
Victor, you've already been said several times (and not from Olaf only) that some of your bug reports were lacking consistency, details, interest, whatever. Or even some of your answers (let's think about bug #5657). So now, it may be understandable that such a bug report which is not that good produces such reaction.
Talking for me, and for me only, I would be assigned this bug, I would close it immediately. Not enough material, nothing really concrete. Typically, that's kind of stuff it's better to discuss with developers instead of writing a bug report. It's a really specific issue, without any debug output, and with source available. Be sure developer will do their own tests to get more information and the report won't be that useful. The idea of a bug report is to point the issue to the developers without *that much* investigations. Here, all the stuff is to be done. That's why a bug report seems not to be appropriate in the way it doesn't bring anything more than just: "Oops, it doesn't work".
Finally, try to keep the mailing-list out of personal conflicts and childish stuff. It's not its purpose. Just insulting each other won't help the project in any way. If you know you are tempted to overreact, then, take a deep breath, go outside and finally write answer when you are back and cool. We are currently in Google Summer of Code period for the ReactOS project. Many new comers eyes are watching us and I definitely don't think that's a good idea to offer them such show. Show instead how both you are involved in the project by posting nice mails, doing great job, offering beers to students (and eventually helping them).
Regards, P. Schweitzer
-
Adam -
Ged Murphy -
Javier Agustìn Fernàndez Arroyo -
Josh -
Olaf Siejka -
Pierre Schweitzer -
victor martinez -
Zachary Gorden