5 May
2011
5 May
'11
9:41 p.m.
Bugzilla is crowded with untouched bugs for so long, and you HAVE to add
more crud to it? Bugs like no.6214, very usefull as we can see below:
"1)Download ClickToDesktop
2)Run in ReactOS
3)Click on the desktop to hide. It doesn't work. Apps just lost the focus.
Nothing appears in the DebugLog."
Now that is informative... Why dont you get back doing something useful for
a change?
6 May
6 May
12:03 a.m.
Olaf, I understand your frustration with this kind of stuff, but we do not
need this kind of antagonistic language. I consider both of you to be good
friends, and I would prefer not to see you two go at each other like this or
let it spiral out of control.
On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 4:41 PM, Olaf Siejka <caemyr(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Bugzilla is crowded with untouched bugs for so long,
and you HAVE to add
more crud to it? Bugs like no.6214, very usefull as we can see below:
"1)Download ClickToDesktop
2)Run in ReactOS
3)Click on the desktop to hide. It doesn't work. Apps just lost the focus.
Nothing appears in the DebugLog."
Now that is informative... Why dont you get back doing something useful for
a change?
_______________________________________________
Ros-dev mailing list
Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
12:23 a.m.
Although Olaf does indeed have a point. And vicmarcal was on IRC for a few
hours going on about this as well; even when I was trying to have
conversations with other developers regarding another issue.
Not that I have anything against vicmarcal, but such interruptions do not
help. And the reports seem like the "It doesn't work" reports you may see
from end users who do not know what the problem is.
On Fri, 06 May 2011 10:03:11 +1000, Zachary Gorden
<drakekaizer666(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Olaf, I understand your frustration with this kind of
stuff, but we do
not
need this kind of antagonistic language. I consider both of you to be
good
friends, and I would prefer not to see you two go at each other like
this or
let it spiral out of control.
On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 4:41 PM, Olaf Siejka <caemyr(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> Bugzilla is crowded with untouched bugs for so long, and you HAVE to add
> more crud to it? Bugs like no.6214, very usefull as we can see below:
>
> "1)Download ClickToDesktop
> 2)Run in ReactOS
> 3)Click on the desktop to hide. It doesn't work. Apps just lost the
> focus.
>
> Nothing appears in the DebugLog."
>
> Now that is informative... Why dont you get back doing something useful
> for
> a change?
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ros-dev mailing list
> Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>
--
Using Opera's revolutionary email client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
7:56 a.m.
@Olaf,
yes, i agree that devs need useful bug reports, with debug logs, and regress
tests if possible.... but, its always better to have a bug report than to
not to have them, isnt it?
On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 2:23 AM, Adam <geekdundee(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Although Olaf does indeed have a point. And vicmarcal
was on IRC for a few
hours going on about this as well; even when I was trying to have
conversations with other developers regarding another issue.
Not that I have anything against vicmarcal, but such interruptions do not
help. And the reports seem like the "It doesn't work" reports you may see
from end users who do not know what the problem is.
On Fri, 06 May 2011 10:03:11 +1000, Zachary Gorden <
drakekaizer666(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Olaf, I understand your frustration with this kind of stuff, but we do not
need this kind of antagonistic language. I
consider both of you to be
good
friends, and I would prefer not to see you two go at each other like this
or
let it spiral out of control.
On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 4:41 PM, Olaf Siejka <caemyr(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Bugzilla is crowded with untouched bugs for so long, and you HAVE to add
> more crud to it? Bugs like no.6214, very usefull as we can see below:
>
> "1)Download ClickToDesktop
> 2)Run in ReactOS
> 3)Click on the desktop to hide. It doesn't work. Apps just lost the
> focus.
>
> Nothing appears in the DebugLog."
>
> Now that is informative... Why dont you get back doing something useful
> for
> a change?
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ros-dev mailing list
> Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>
>
--
Using Opera's revolutionary email client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
_______________________________________________
Ros-dev mailing list
Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
8 a.m.
I do not know about you but I would rather spend time dealing with reports
that are detailed and concise than waste time dealing with a very vague
report; whether or not the report is from a developer. Wasting time is not
good. Sure better to have *concise* bug report than no bug report, but no
bug report is better than *vage-and-not-explanatory* bug report IMO
Just my opinion.
On Fri, 06 May 2011 17:56:46 +1000, Javier Agustìn Fernàndez Arroyo
<elhoir(a)gmail.com> wrote:
@Olaf,
yes, i agree that devs need useful bug reports, with debug logs, and
regress
tests if possible.... but, its always better to have a bug report than to
not to have them, isnt it?
On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 2:23 AM, Adam <geekdundee(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> Although Olaf does indeed have a point. And vicmarcal was on IRC for a
> few
> hours going on about this as well; even when I was trying to have
> conversations with other developers regarding another issue.
>
> Not that I have anything against vicmarcal, but such interruptions do
> not
> help. And the reports seem like the "It doesn't work" reports you may
> see
> from end users who do not know what the problem is.
>
>
> On Fri, 06 May 2011 10:03:11 +1000, Zachary Gorden <
> drakekaizer666(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Olaf, I understand your frustration with this kind of stuff, but we do
> not
>> need this kind of antagonistic language. I consider both of you to be
>> good
>> friends, and I would prefer not to see you two go at each other like
>> this
>> or
>> let it spiral out of control.
>>
>> On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 4:41 PM, Olaf Siejka <caemyr(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Bugzilla is crowded with untouched bugs for so long, and you HAVE to
>> add
>>> more crud to it? Bugs like no.6214, very usefull as we can see below:
>>>
>>> "1)Download ClickToDesktop
>>> 2)Run in ReactOS
>>> 3)Click on the desktop to hide. It doesn't work. Apps just lost the
>>> focus.
>>>
>>> Nothing appears in the DebugLog."
>>>
>>> Now that is informative... Why dont you get back doing something
>>> useful
>>> for
>>> a change?
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Ros-dev mailing list
>>> Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
>>> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>>>
>>>
>
> --
> Using Opera's revolutionary email client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ros-dev mailing list
> Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>
--
Using Opera's revolutionary email client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
8:23 a.m.
Hi Caemyr!
I am quite worried you didnt notice my mental status before, as I have been around for
almost 3 years now. I am trying to get over this small handicap.
Meanwhile, maybe you can begin looking yourself, reflect on your overreacted email and
apologize.
I am pretty easy to find on IRC so sending this kind of email is just unnecessary spam to
a list that has not been created for this kind of stuff.
Do you know that premise about "Talk and Share in Private before moving to
Public". If not, please, learn about it.I am sure it'll help in your real life
too and it is really needed when working in a project with other mates.
Now let me reply your suggestions/opinions:
Bugzilla is crowded with untouched bugs for so long,
and you HAVE to add more crud to it?
I'll ignore the "crud" word in
this sentence(as I'll talk about the report you pointed later). Do you mean you prefer
not sending bugreports to Bugzilla?
Of course I can ignore bugs when testing and not reporting to Bugzilla, but THE Tester
work is reporting anything wrong. So I'll keep sending bugreports even if they get
totally ignored.
Bugs like no.6214, very usefull as we can see below:
"1)Download ClickToDesktop
2)Run in ReactOS
3)Click on the desktop to hide. It doesn't work.
Apps just lost the focus.
Nothing appears in the DebugLog."
Could you quote my WHOLE bugreport and not
just a "piece of it"? http://www.reactos.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=6214
You will see not just the replication method but also: the ReactOS revision tested, a link
to download the app, the Source code of the App and information about How it works.
No, I am not going to make easy jokes about visual impairment because these guys have all
my respect:
"r51583
ClickToDesktop:
http://www.donationcoder.com/Software/Skrommel/ClickToDesktop/ClickToDeskto…
Click on the desktop to hide all windows,
Features:
- Or click at the middle part of the top of the screen.
- Click again to unhide.
SourceCode:
http://www.donationcoder.com/Software/Skrommel/ClickToDesktop/ClickToDeskto…
1)Download ClickToDesktop
2)Run in ReactOS
3)Click on the desktop to hide. It doesn't work. Apps just lost the focus.
Nothing appears in the DebugLog."
And now we can talk about "how bad the bugreport is" or in your words "crud
report" because not following the Wiki way of reporting it:
(Paragraph extracted from our Wiki)
Reproduction method using step by step instructions.
DONE
Hardware or virtual machine configuration.
DONE
Tested ReactOS version (verify also that it does happen
on nightly builds)
DONE
The version of the application tested (if any) and a
download link (URL).
DONE
Screenshot of the problem if it's a graphical bug
(add the attachment in Bugzilla).
It is not a graphical bug. DONE
Debug log for crashes, freezes and application errors.
See Debugging to see how to obtain a high quality debug output.
There is nothing in the DEBUG LOG. Nothing as NO NEW LINE in putty after launching the
app. DONE.
Choose a concise bug title.
DONE
Do not post more than one issue in a single bug report.
DONE
Plus I have added a link to the SourceCode of the app. So, Caemyr, may you tell me which
guideline/s I am not following?
Again, even if my bugreport is not good enough(I am open to criticism and Dev pointing me
to add any useful debugchannels to obtain extra debugging), there are ways to tell it. And
no, you don't know how to tell things. I am pretty offended by the way you said it,
not by the content. Don't use ReactOS to help you in your personal attacks.
PD: Considering I am Spanish, that my blood is much hotter than any European around, I has
been quite polite.
8:43 a.m.
Its not the point of testing every random app there is. Such tests are
useless, if they do not provide any precise error or in any other way show
precisely any bug/deficiency in ROS. What are those for? What is the point
of passing report same as in my afforementioned example (AKA app doesnt
work, nothing in debug log).
You ask what is wrong with such reports?
1. No precise error;
2. No info regarding the app in gathered debug log;
3. App is not of priority list (which includes major apps, as such would not
be affected by points 1 and 2);
To have such report fixed, one would first research the bug, something what
you ommited, feeling content with simply stating that app doesnt work...
I would understand if someone from outside of our project had reported such
bugs, but for the fuck sake, you admitt you are within the project for so
long. You should know well already, how bugs should be reported! Its not the
first time i point out the quality of bugs reported by you, and my previous
attempts to reason with you have failed. Please treat this as official
warning from me then.
As for my arguments being a personal attack? Please... You seem to think too
well of yourself if you think this is personal.
I am simply tired of cleaning up bugzilla, to endure such garbage reports as
you pasted.
2011/5/6 victor martinez <vicmarcal(a)hotmail.com>
Hi Caemyr!
9:08 a.m.
As a humble follower of the ReactOS project since 2007, I have seen many arguments on the
ROSDEV mailing list and IRC, as well as the official forums. Please, remember that these
information channels are all public, and flaming, trolling, or whatever you call it is
completely exposed to the public.
If I was to look at jojning the ROS project as a developer, and i saw these kinds of
arguments on the mailing list, I would be horrified, and probably just give up and move on
to another project. Please, try and keep it professional.
As to the bugreport, as a simple non-developer, i can't see anything particularly
wrong with it... It clearly shows what is wrong, supplies sourcecode, which could be used
to diagnose the problem, and it shows clear methods of reproduction. It also describes a
clear bug in the handling of windows, which could manifest itself in the behaviour of
other apps. Sure, it's not the best bug report, but it's definately better than
nothing.
Yours Sincerely
Joshua Rice
On 6 May 2011, at 09:43, Olaf Siejka wrote:
Its not the point of testing every random app there
is. Such tests are useless, if they do not provide any precise error or in any other way
show precisely any bug/deficiency in ROS. What are those for? What is the point of passing
report same as in my afforementioned example (AKA app doesnt work, nothing in debug log).
You ask what is wrong with such reports?
1. No precise error;
2. No info regarding the app in gathered debug log;
3. App is not of priority list (which includes major apps, as such would not be affected
by points 1 and 2);
To have such report fixed, one would first research the bug, something what you ommited,
feeling content with simply stating that app doesnt work...
I would understand if someone from outside of our project had reported such bugs, but for
the fuck sake, you admitt you are within the project for so long. You should know well
already, how bugs should be reported! Its not the first time i point out the quality of
bugs reported by you, and my previous attempts to reason with you have failed. Please
treat this as official warning from me then.
As for my arguments being a personal attack? Please... You seem to think too well of
yourself if you think this is personal.
I am simply tired of cleaning up bugzilla, to endure such garbage reports as you pasted.
2011/5/6 victor martinez <vicmarcal(a)hotmail.com>
Hi Caemyr!
_______________________________________________
Ros-dev mailing list
Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
10:32 a.m.
Hi Sir Caemyr!
Please I am still waiting your public apologies because your offensive email.
Its not the point of testing every random app there is.
Such tests are useless, if they do not provide any precise error or in any other way show
precisely any bug/deficiency in ROS. What >are those for? What is the point of passing
report same as in my afforementioned example (AKA app doesnt work, nothing in debug log).
The error is quite precise. The app has just one functionality: "Click on the desktop
to hide all windows". And the app doesnt work. So if you mix both statements (or if
you just read the bugreport Title) you'll discover that the bug is:
"ClickToDesktop is not hidding/unhidding the Windows in ReactOS".
About defining it as a "every random app", I disagree. This one is about message
handling, and iirc, jimtabor is now quite focused in message handling. Even more, most of
my yesterday bugreports are about keyboard message handling.So maybe these "random
(opensource) apps" could be of any help for Jim. But of course you have tested the
app before overreacting.Haven't you?
Now the interesting points:
1. No precise error;
Disagree. I have been as
precise as I can. Caemyr, maybe you can tell me if the bug is in "Desktop doesn't
recive my mouse click so the app doesn't send the messages to minimize recursively the
windows" or if the bug is "directly in Minimizing/Maximizing message
handling"? I can't,so I prefer to not mislead the Dev letting him to decide where
is the bug.
2. No info regarding the app in gathered debug log;
There is no DebugLog as there isn't any new line in Putty, as I said in the
bugreport.
3. App is not of priority list (which includes major
apps, as such would not be affected by points 1 and 2);
Could you point me to that
"priority list"?Do you mean you prefer a bugreport of "MSWord2007 not
installing" instead a bugreport of a small opensource app (or better said, a script)
which tests 2 or 3 Win32 combined functionalities?
Evenmore, where is that 3rd point about "App is not of priority list" in the
File bugs guideline?
Summing up: Invalid bugreports are those which doesn't follow the Wiki guidelines, not
your "own" guidelines or your "own" priorities.
To have such report fixed, one would first research the
bug, something what you ommited, feeling content with simply stating that app doesnt
work...
Could you pointed me where in "wiki" it's said that the bug
should be "researched"?And what do you mean with "research"? Should I
find which API is failing?Researching a bug is optionally if it is not then we can begin
closing most of the bugreports as Invalid.
Its not the first time i point out the quality of bugs
reported by you, and my previous attempts to reason with you have failed.
Please show me my "Invalid" bugs until yesterday. Could you describe mi
un-quality bugs?I can:
1)You TOLD me to modify "regressions" to "REGRESSION" in 7 or 8
bugreports titles so they can be found by the Wiki Regressions Buglist script. I DID the
changes in most of them after your request, I just missed a couple (damn Bugzilla search)
and you modify them. Is that a failed "attempt to reason"?
2)You TOLD me to modify "User32:msg regression" to
"User32_winetest:msg". I DID in 7 or 8 bugreport titles too.I didn't change
all because my Internet reliability, when I was able to reconnect I found that you have
changed the missing ones.Thanks. Is that a failed "attempt to reason"?
Any other?Please links, not words.
Please treat this as official warning from me then.
Official warning??Lol. No comments. To avoid a second one I have added a
"Sir" in the greetings. But I am curious, what happens after the 2nd Official
Caemyr warning?
Can I give you an Official warning because your overreacted offending email?
Yours faithfully,
Vicmarcal
8:52 a.m.
vicmarcal - I have a lot of mental conditions and a disability. In fact
these affect me enough (as well as other work) that I find it difficult to
make real contributions to ROS other than the occasional patch here and
there. If there is a problem it may be worth letting people know about it
- at least in IRC - so that this sort of thing does not happen again.
After all how can one help if one does not understand the problem.
On Fri, 06 May 2011 18:23:22 +1000, victor martinez
<vicmarcal(a)hotmail.com> wrote:
Hi Caemyr!
I am quite worried you didnt notice my mental status before, as I have
been around for almost 3 years now. I am trying to get over this small
handicap.
Meanwhile, maybe you can begin looking yourself, reflect on your
overreacted email and apologize.
I am pretty easy to find on IRC so sending this kind of email is just
unnecessary spam to a list that has not been created for this kind of
stuff.
Do you know that premise about "Talk and Share in Private before moving
to Public". If not, please, learn about it.I am sure it'll help in your
real life too and it is really needed when working in a project with
other mates.
Now let me reply your suggestions/opinions:
--
Using Opera's revolutionary email client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
Bugzilla is crowded with untouched bugs for so
long, and you HAVE to
add more crud to it?
I'll ignore the "crud" word in this sentence(as
I'll talk about the
report you pointed later). Do you mean you prefer not sending bugreports
to Bugzilla?
Of course I can ignore bugs when testing and not reporting to Bugzilla,
but THE Tester work is reporting anything wrong. So I'll keep sending
bugreports even if they get totally ignored.
Bugs like no.6214, very usefull as we can see
below:
"1)Download ClickToDesktop
2)Run in ReactOS
3)Click on the desktop to hide. It doesn't
work. Apps just lost the
focus.
Nothing appears in the DebugLog."
Could you quote my WHOLE bugreport and not
just a "piece of it"?
http://www.reactos.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=6214
You will see not just the replication method but also: the ReactOS
revision tested, a link to download the app, the Source code of the App
and information about How it works.
No, I am not going to make easy jokes about visual impairment because
these guys have all my respect:
"r51583
ClickToDesktop:
http://www.donationcoder.com/Software/Skrommel/ClickToDesktop/ClickToDeskto…
Click on the desktop to hide all windows,
Features:
- Or click at the middle part of the top of the screen.
- Click again to unhide.
SourceCode:
http://www.donationcoder.com/Software/Skrommel/ClickToDesktop/ClickToDeskto…
1)Download ClickToDesktop
2)Run in ReactOS
3)Click on the desktop to hide. It doesn't work. Apps just lost the
focus.
Nothing appears in the DebugLog."
And now we can talk about "how bad the bugreport is" or in your words
"crud report" because not following the Wiki way of reporting it:
(Paragraph extracted from our Wiki)
Reproduction method using step by step
instructions.
DONE
Hardware or virtual machine configuration.
DONE
Tested ReactOS version (verify also that it does
happen on nightly
builds)
DONE
The version of the application tested (if any)
and a download link
(URL).
DONE
Screenshot of the problem if it's a graphical
bug (add the attachment
in Bugzilla).
It is not a graphical bug. DONE
Debug log for crashes, freezes and application
errors. See Debugging to
see how to obtain a high quality debug output.
There is nothing in the DEBUG LOG. Nothing as NO NEW LINE in putty after
launching the app. DONE.
Choose a concise bug title.
DONE
Do not post more than one issue in a single bug
report.
DONE
Plus I have added a link to the SourceCode of the app. So, Caemyr, may
you tell me which guideline/s I am not following?
Again, even if my bugreport is not good enough(I am open to criticism
and Dev pointing me to add any useful debugchannels to obtain extra
debugging), there are ways to tell it. And no, you don't know how to
tell things. I am pretty offended by the way you said it, not by the
content. Don't use ReactOS to help you in your personal attacks.
PD: Considering I am Spanish, that my blood is much hotter than any
European around, I has been quite polite.
9 a.m.
In case of anyone having any doubt, my reference to craziness/madness in
initial message was purely a figure of speech.
10:58 a.m.
Please take this offline, this is not a discussion for ros-dev.
Thanks.
From: ros-dev-bounces(a)reactos.org [mailto:ros-dev-bounces@reactos.org] On
Behalf Of victor martinez
Sent: 06 May 2011 11:35
To: ros-dev(a)reactos.org
Subject: Re: [ros-dev] Vicmarcal - are you mad?
In case of anyone having any doubt, my reference to
craziness/madness in
initial message was purely a figure of speech.
In case of anyone having any doubt, his reference to craziness/madness in
initial message was purely a way to offend.
Yours faithfully, Sir Caemyr.
11:06 a.m.
Okay guys...
Enough of it, not need to give such an image of the ReactOS project.
Victor, you've already been said several times (and not from Olaf only) that some of
your bug reports were lacking consistency, details, interest, whatever. Or even some of
your answers (let's think about bug #5657).
So now, it may be understandable that such a bug report which is not that good produces
such reaction.
Talking for me, and for me only, I would be assigned this bug, I would close it
immediately. Not enough material, nothing really concrete. Typically, that's kind of
stuff it's better to discuss with developers instead of writing a bug report. It's
a really specific issue, without any debug output, and with source available. Be sure
developer will do their own tests to get more information and the report won't be that
useful.
The idea of a bug report is to point the issue to the developers without *that much*
investigations. Here, all the stuff is to be done. That's why a bug report seems not
to be appropriate in the way it doesn't bring anything more than just: "Oops, it
doesn't work".
Finally, try to keep the mailing-list out of personal conflicts and childish stuff.
It's not its purpose. Just insulting each other won't help the project in any way.
If you know you are tempted to overreact, then, take a deep breath, go outside and finally
write answer when you are back and cool.
We are currently in Google Summer of Code period for the ReactOS project. Many new comers
eyes are watching us and I definitely don't think that's a good idea to offer them
such show.
Show instead how both you are involved in the project by posting nice mails, doing great
job, offering beers to students (and eventually helping them).
Regards,
P. Schweitzer
4885
days inactive
4886
days old
13 comments
8 participants
participants (8)
-
Adam -
Ged Murphy -
Javier Agustìn Fernàndez Arroyo -
Josh -
Olaf Siejka -
Pierre Schweitzer -
victor martinez -
Zachary Gorden