Re: [ros-dev] 1296 [dreimer] Get the cmake path from a system variable called _ROSBE_CMAKEPATH. Hard coding is eeevul!

[Colin Finck]

[e-mail] wrote:
> Get the cmake path from a system variable called _ROSBE_CMAKEPATH.

I hope we're not thinking about requiring the user to install RosBE and 
CMake separately.
This would pretty much kill the point of RosBE if people are forced to 
get random versions of their build tools from multiple sources again..

- Colin

[Zachary Gorden]

I object highly to the idea of bundling cmake with the BE.  Most platforms
already have binaries built of cmake, either by the distro or for Windows,
the people who make cmake provide an installer.  We provide the compilers
and linkers and we provided rbuild because it was our own thing, but cmake
is not and has its own environment.

On Thu, Jun 2, 2011 at 4:53 PM, Colin Finck [e-mail] wrote:
> [e-mail] wrote:
> > Get the cmake path from a system variable called _ROSBE_CMAKEPATH.
>
> I hope we're not thinking about requiring the user to install RosBE and
> CMake separately.
> This would pretty much kill the point of RosBE if people are forced to get
> random versions of their build tools from multiple sources again..
> Colin
>
> Ros-dev mailing list
> [e-mail]
> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev

[Jérôme Gardou]

Fact is that we currently use the bleeding edge fersion of cmake, and we 
may be ahead of it. And it's not that big actually.

Le 03/06/2011 00:01, Zachary Gorden a écrit :
> I object highly to the idea of bundling cmake with the BE.  Most 
> platforms already have binaries built of cmake, either by the distro 
> or for Windows, the people who make cmake provide an installer.  We 
> provide the compilers and linkers and we provided rbuild because it 
> was our own thing, but cmake is not and has its own environment.
>
> On Thu, Jun 2, 2011 at 4:53 PM, Colin Finck <[e-mail] 
> mailto:[e-mail]> wrote:
> [e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]> wrote:
> > Get the cmake path from a system variable called _ROSBE_CMAKEPATH.
>
> I hope we're not thinking about requiring the user to install
> RosBE and CMake separately.
> This would pretty much kill the point of RosBE if people are
> forced to get random versions of their build tools from multiple
> sources again..
>
>
> - Colin
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ros-dev mailing list
> [e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>
> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>
>
>
> Ros-dev mailing list
> [e-mail]
> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev

[Zachary Gorden]

Bleeding edge?  As far as I'm aware of on Windows we just tell people to go
install the latest stable version.  If the situation on Linux is different
then you have a reason to need to bundle.  On Windows we don't.

2011/6/2 Jérôme Gardou [e-mail]
> Fact is that we currently use the bleeding edge fersion of cmake, and we
> may be ahead of it. And it's not that big actually.
>
> Le 03/06/2011 00:01, Zachary Gorden a écrit :
>
> I object highly to the idea of bundling cmake with the BE.  Most platforms
> already have binaries built of cmake, either by the distro or for Windows,
> the people who make cmake provide an installer.  We provide the compilers
> and linkers and we provided rbuild because it was our own thing, but cmake
> is not and has its own environment.
>
> On Thu, Jun 2, 2011 at 4:53 PM, Colin Finck [e-mail] wrote:
> > [e-mail] wrote:
> > > Get the cmake path from a system variable called _ROSBE_CMAKEPATH.
> >
> > I hope we're not thinking about requiring the user to install RosBE and
> > CMake separately.
> > This would pretty much kill the point of RosBE if people are forced to get
> > random versions of their build tools from multiple sources again..
> > Colin
> >
> > Ros-dev mailing list
> > [e-mail]
> > http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>
> Ros-dev mailing [e-mail]://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>
> Ros-dev mailing list
> [e-mail]
> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev

[Colin Finck]

Zachary Gorden wrote:
> I object highly to the idea of bundling cmake with the BE.  Most
> platforms already have binaries built of cmake, either by the distro or
> for Windows, the people who make cmake provide an installer.

I don't see the point here, you could say exactly the same about every 
tool we bundle.
> We provide the compilers and linkers and we provided rbuildbecause it was our own
> thing, but cmake is not and has its own environment.

There are also easily installable third-party MinGW environments, but 
this is not the point.
RosBE started as a project to bundle all build tools (always including 
GNU Make by the way), even when we didn't need our own specially patched 
versions yet. This is precisely why ReactOS is one of the easiest 
operating systems to compile and we can have 5-minute tutorials like 
this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnt7s2zEZFo

On top of this, it allows us to have comparable builds between all 
developers, because we can be sure that they use the very same tools.
I don't want to spend nights of debugging if problems are suddenly 
caused by using different CMake versions.

I'm very reluctant to drop these fundamental ideas behind RosBE. They 
have certainly saved every ReactOS developer much time.

- Colin

[victor martinez]

I am agree with Colin.
The idea of having a Build Environment is not just to make the life easier to our devs, but also to have ISOs which we can compare. 
If the Environment doesnt bundle *ALL* the tools, then we can have devs/testers with different Tools combinations...it can lead to break walls with our head.
Also we should try to do the compilation as easier as possible, why not creating RosBE 2.0 with GUI frontend? :3

[Adam]

I wonder if the CMake Gui can be used here. Have had a bit of a play with  
it but I'm not sure how it is possible to make it friendly for RosBE users  
so they don't have to linux around with the config and all that.

On Fri, 03 Jun 2011 20:26:58 +1000, victor martinez  
[e-mail] wrote:
> I am agree with Colin.
> The idea of having a Build Environment is not just to make the life  
> easier to our devs, but also to have ISOs which we can compare.
> If the Environment doesnt bundle *ALL* the tools, then we can have  
> devs/testers with different Tools combinations...it can lead to break  
> walls with our head.
> Also we should try to do the compilation as easier as possible, why not  
> creating RosBE 2.0 with GUI frontend? :3
>  	   		
-- 
Using Opera's revolutionary email client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

[Timo Kreuzer]

Am 03.06.2011 12:31, schrieb Adam:
> I wonder if the CMake Gui can be used here. Have had a bit of a play 
> with it but I'm not sure how it is possible to make it friendly for 
> RosBE users so they don't have to linux around with the config and all 
> that.

I've been using the cmake gui quite often (especially before the 
configure script was there, and of course certain persons were telling 
me how lame I was, using a gui tool ;-)) and it works like a charm. Its 
also very useful, if you want to change configuration settings without 
changing cmake files in the sources or editing a huge config file.

For the initial configuration, I think the configure script is the easiest.

[Jérôme Gardou]

Guess what...

Cmake provides such a GUI

Le 03/06/2011 12:26, victor martinez a écrit :
> I am agree with Colin.
> The idea of having a Build Environment is not just to make the life 
> easier to our devs, but also to have ISOs which we can compare.
> If the Environment doesnt bundle *ALL* the tools, then we can have 
> devs/testers with different Tools combinations...it can lead to break 
> walls with our head.
> Also we should try to do the compilation as easier as possible, why 
> not creating RosBE 2.0 with GUI frontend? :3
>
> Ros-dev mailing list
> [e-mail]
> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev

[victor martinez]

Does Cmake provide a GUI which:
1)Updates the local copy to any desired revision?
2)Which changes the Architecture to build ReactOS for the current session?
3)Fully clean the source directory/logs?

:)

Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2011 12:32:41 +0200
From: [e-mail]
To: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: [ros-dev] 1296 [dreimer] Get the cmake path from a system variable called _ROSBE_CMAKEPATH. Hard coding is eeevul!

Guess what...

Cmake provides such a GUI

Le 03/06/2011 12:26, victor martinez a écrit :

I am agree with Colin.

The idea of having a Build Environment is not just to make the
      life easier to our devs, but also to have ISOs which we can
      compare.

If the Environment doesnt bundle *ALL* the tools, then we can have
      devs/testers with different Tools combinations...it can lead to
      break walls with our head.

Also we should try to do the compilation as easier as possible,
      why not creating RosBE 2.0 with GUI frontend? :3

_______________________________________________
Ros-dev mailing list
[e-mail]
http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev

_______________________________________________
Ros-dev mailing list
[e-mail]
http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev

[Colin Finck]

victor martinez [e-mail] wrote:
> Does Cmake provide a GUI which:
> 1)Updates the local copy to any desired revision?
> 2)Which changes the Architecture to build ReactOS for the current session?
> 3)Fully clean the source directory/logs?

I fear we would attract too many people from the sandbox if we ship 
RosBE with such a GUI. If you want to try or develop ReactOS, you simply 
need some skills. Just requiring basic command line skills for building 
a whole OS is already better than what similar projects offer.

In any case, something like this shouldn't be considered for the very 
first CMake release of RosBE.
We could maybe bundle the already available CMake GUI if there are more 
votes for it. But to be honest, I don't think it's that hard to use the 
command line for setting the few options we have. The rest of the 
building process happens there anyway.

- Colin

[Daniel Reimer]

After the chat with zwabbit yesterday i feared exactly this will happen. 
I think we have two ways to add cmake to RosBE.

1. Let the Installer load the setup and run it silently in the background.
2. Bundle a minimal Version.

I dont really like the idea to make users be forced to load cmake from 
an external link and install it afterwards. So lets choose between these 
two ways. I agree, some ppl have a cmake version already installed, but 
this does not stop us to provide it for the rest in one or another way.

Am 03.06.2011 13:16, schrieb Colin Finck:
> victor martinez [e-mail] wrote:
> > Does Cmake provide a GUI which:
> > 1)Updates the local copy to any desired revision?
> > 2)Which changes the Architecture to build ReactOS for the current 
> > session?
> > 3)Fully clean the source directory/logs?
>
> I fear we would attract too many people from the sandbox if we ship 
> RosBE with such a GUI. If you want to try or develop ReactOS, you 
> simply need some skills. Just requiring basic command line skills for 
> building a whole OS is already better than what similar projects offer.
>
> In any case, something like this shouldn't be considered for the very 
> first CMake release of RosBE.
> We could maybe bundle the already available CMake GUI if there are 
> more votes for it. But to be honest, I don't think it's that hard to 
> use the command line for setting the few options we have. The rest of 
> the building process happens there anyway.
> Colin
>
> Ros-dev mailing list
> [e-mail]
> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev

[Zachary Gorden]

@Ged The user is able to choose which BEs they want to install, so if they
only want the x86 BE, they can deselect the x64 or ARM "features."  That's a
pretty standard functionality of MSI after all.

@Daniel If that's the route being taken, you're going to have to go with #2.
 You can't run 2 MSIs at the same time and figuring out a way of keeping
track of the latest version of cmake is not worth the effort.  And if we are
going with #2, I'm going to insist it's a separate install "feature" so that
does of us who already have cmake can avoid duplicate installs.  I still
object to cmake being bundled at all, especially if we go with some
"minimalist" version.  That basically severely limits the usage of cmake
while in the BE environment to what we happen to have included, which is a
step backward for the idea of using the BE as the foundation of a full
fledged SDK.

I highly doubt cmake, at least on different versions of their Windows
release, will be the determining factor for reproducible builds.  We're
using different versions of cmake on different OSes at work here and
generally cmake is not the cause of any build problems.

On Fri, Jun 3, 2011 at 9:33 AM, Daniel Reimer [e-mail]:
> After the chat with zwabbit yesterday i feared exactly this will happen. I
> think we have two ways to add cmake to RosBE.
> Let the Installer load the setup and run it silently in the background.
> Bundle a minimal Version.
>
> I dont really like the idea to make users be forced to load cmake from an
> external link and install it afterwards. So lets choose between these two
> ways. I agree, some ppl have a cmake version already installed, but this
> does not stop us to provide it for the rest in one or another way.
>
> Am 03.06.2011 13:16, schrieb Colin Finck:
>
> victor martinez [e-mail] wrote:
> > > Does Cmake provide a GUI which:
> > > 1)Updates the local copy to any desired revision?
> > > 2)Which changes the Architecture to build ReactOS for the current
> > > session?
> > > 3)Fully clean the source directory/logs?
> >
> > I fear we would attract too many people from the sandbox if we ship RosBE
> > with such a GUI. If you want to try or develop ReactOS, you simply need some
> > skills. Just requiring basic command line skills for building a whole OS is
> > already better than what similar projects offer.
> >
> > In any case, something like this shouldn't be considered for the very
> > first CMake release of RosBE.
> > We could maybe bundle the already available CMake GUI if there are more
> > votes for it. But to be honest, I don't think it's that hard to use the
> > command line for setting the few options we have. The rest of the building
> > process happens there anyway.
> > Colin
> >
> > Ros-dev mailing list
> > [e-mail]
> > http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>
> Ros-dev mailing list
> [e-mail]
> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev

[Timo Kreuzer]

Am 03.06.2011 16:46, schrieb Zachary Gorden:
> @Ged The user is able to choose which BEs they want to install, so if 
> they only want the x86 BE, they can deselect the x64 or ARM 
> "features."  That's a pretty standard functionality of MSI after all.

Just to be clear, we are talking about 1,5 hours download time for 
people with a 56k modem.

[Zachary Gorden]

The only developer I know who would be majorly impacted by increased BE
download size is Eric.  Eric, any comments on this topic?

On Fri, Jun 3, 2011 at 10:03 AM, Timo Kreuzer [e-mail] wrote:
> Am 03.06.2011 16:46, schrieb Zachary Gorden:
>
> @Ged The user is able to choose which BEs they want to install, so if they
> > only want the x86 BE, they can deselect the x64 or ARM "features."  That's a
> > pretty standard functionality of MSI after all.
> >
> > Just to be clear, we are talking about 1,5 hours download time for people
>
> with a 56k modem.
>
> Ros-dev mailing list
> [e-mail]
> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev

[Aleksey Bragin]

For reference, I'm often located at the place where I only have 512  
kbit/s internet connection. So please don't bloat the stuff too much.  
Thanks.

Aleksey.

On Jun 3, 2011, at 7:12 PM, Zachary Gorden wrote:
> The only developer I know who would be majorly impacted by  
> increased BE download size is Eric.  Eric, any comments on this topic?
>
> On Fri, Jun 3, 2011 at 10:03 AM, Timo Kreuzer [e-mail]  
> wrote:
> Am 03.06.2011 16:46, schrieb Zachary Gorden:
>
> @Ged The user is able to choose which BEs they want to install, so  
> if they only want the x86 BE, they can deselect the x64 or ARM  
> "features."  That's a pretty standard functionality of MSI after all.
>
> Just to be clear, we are talking about 1,5 hours download time for  
> people with a 56k modem.

[Adam]

Same here.

On Sun, 05 Jun 2011 06:28:32 +1000, Aleksey Bragin [e-mail]  
wrote:
> For reference, I'm often located at the place where I only have 512
> kbit/s internet connection. So please don't bloat the stuff too much.
> Thanks.
>
> Aleksey.
>
> On Jun 3, 2011, at 7:12 PM, Zachary Gorden wrote:
> > The only developer I know who would be majorly impacted by
> > increased BE download size is Eric.  Eric, any comments on this topic?
> >
> > On Fri, Jun 3, 2011 at 10:03 AM, Timo Kreuzer [e-mail]
> > wrote:
> > Am 03.06.2011 16:46, schrieb Zachary Gorden:
> >
> > @Ged The user is able to choose which BEs they want to install, so
> > if they only want the x86 BE, they can deselect the x64 or ARM
> > "features."  That's a pretty standard functionality of MSI after all.
> >
> > Just to be clear, we are talking about 1,5 hours download time for
> > people with a 56k modem.
-- 
Using Opera's revolutionary email client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

[Javier Agustìn Fernàndez Arroyo]

10 MB downstream ADSL right now, and will have a 50 MB downstream/5MB
upstream optical fiber in a month

I wanted to ask if i could take this bandwidth for ReactOS in some way.....

On Sun, Jun 5, 2011 at 4:55 AM, Adam [e-mail] wrote:
> Same here.
>
> On Sun, 05 Jun 2011 06:28:32 +1000, Aleksey Bragin [e-mail]
> wrote:
>
> For reference, I'm often located at the place where I only have 512
> > kbit/s internet connection. So please don't bloat the stuff too much.
> > Thanks.
> >
> > Aleksey.
> >
> > On Jun 3, 2011, at 7:12 PM, Zachary Gorden wrote:
> >
> > The only developer I know who would be majorly impacted by
> > > increased BE download size is Eric.  Eric, any comments on this topic?
> > >
> > > On Fri, Jun 3, 2011 at 10:03 AM, Timo Kreuzer [e-mail]
> > > wrote:
> > > Am 03.06.2011 16:46, schrieb Zachary Gorden:
> > >
> > > @Ged The user is able to choose which BEs they want to install, so
> > > if they only want the x86 BE, they can deselect the x64 or ARM
> > > "features."  That's a pretty standard functionality of MSI after all.
> > >
> > > Just to be clear, we are talking about 1,5 hours download time for
> > > people with a 56k modem.
>
> --
> Using Opera's revolutionary email client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
>
> Ros-dev mailing list
> [e-mail]
> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev

[Jan Blomqvist Kinander]

For all not-so-techie guys who want to start building and possibly develop ReactOS and for many testers it's important to keep it super-simple, RosBE is just so simple anyone can get started and it's not threatning at all. This is really important in my opinion.

I also follow the Contiki OS, they also have a development suite, but it is a VMware Player image of the size of more then 2GB To include Ubuntu + build tools and utilities, that is heavy and mega crippled.

I also insist on one RosBE including all needed portions of the building environment. I also would like to see some util for translators to make that easy.

I would like something like RosTE too, a one installation package including a Test Environment with VM automatic iso downloader, debug-tools and such.

ReactOS is supposed to be easy, keep it that way.

/Jaix Bly
Jan Blomqvist Kinander

"ReactOS Development List" [e-mail] wrote on Fri, June 3rd, 2011, 9:42 AM:
> Zachary Gorden wrote:
> > I object highly to the idea of bundling cmake with the BE.  Most
> > platforms already have binaries built of cmake, either by the distro or
> > for Windows, the people who make cmake provide an installer.
>
> I don't see the point here, you could say exactly the same about every 
> tool we bundle.
> > We provide the compilers and linkers and we provided rbuildbecause it was our own
> > thing, but cmake is not and has its own environment.
>
> There are also easily installable third-party MinGW environments, but 
> this is not the point.
> RosBE started as a project to bundle all build tools (always including 
> GNU Make by the way), even when we didn't need our own specially patched 
> versions yet. This is precisely why ReactOS is one of the easiest 
> operating systems to compile and we can have 5-minute tutorials like 
> this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnt7s2zEZFo
>
> On top of this, it allows us to have comparable builds between all 
> developers, because we can be sure that they use the very same tools.
> I don't want to spend nights of debugging if problems are suddenly 
> caused by using different CMake versions.
>
> I'm very reluctant to drop these fundamental ideas behind RosBE. They 
> have certainly saved every ReactOS developer much time.
> Colin
>
> Ros-dev mailing list
> [e-mail]
> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev