RE: [ros-dev] Microsoft Office files in the trunk

[Murphy, Ged (Bolton)]

Mike Swanson wrote:

>   In the branch of press-media, there are two documents
> currently. An MS
>  Word and MS PowerPoint document.
>  
>  I'm calling for SVN committers for _no more_ MS Office documents. They
>  are a proprietary format, of which not all the features are currently
>  known. I recommend instead the use of OASIS OpenDocument. Not only
>  does it save much space, but it also does not contain any secrets in
>  which need to be reverse engineered to discover.
>   
[...]
>   
>  Please, for the good of the project, use the free OpenDocument format.
>  If not for the reason of being open or free, but simply for the fact
>  that it ensures that everybody will be able to view such documents (no
>  need to buy any pricey office suites here!). 
I disagree with this. I don't know how to use oo.o or variants, and I don't
intend on learning something I have no interest in. 
I'm currently putting together a presentation for the speeches I have coming
up on ReactOS. If a rule was put in place where we could only commit
OpenDocument files, I would simply not put it into the repository and would
instead share it with anyone who wanted it via email.

This isn't because I'm being awkward, it's because I have no time or
interest to learn a new office suite .... and I certainly don't want to
install oo.o on my machine.

I suppose it's this attitude which keeps MS Office up as a monopoly, which
now make me realise why they don't want to support OpenDocument.


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Exide Technologies is an industrial and transportation battery
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Further information can be found at www.exide.com

[Michael B. Trausch]

Murphy, Ged (Bolton) wrote:
>   
>  I disagree with this. I don't know how to use oo.o or variants, and I don't
>  intend on learning something I have no interest in. 
>  I'm currently putting together a presentation for the speeches I have coming
>  up on ReactOS. If a rule was put in place where we could only commit
>  OpenDocument files, I would simply not put it into the repository and would
>  instead share it with anyone who wanted it via email.
>  
>  This isn't because I'm being awkward, it's because I have no time or
>  interest to learn a new office suite .... and I certainly don't want to
>  install oo.o on my machine.
>  
>  I suppose it's this attitude which keeps MS Office up as a monopoly, which
>  now make me realise why they don't want to support OpenDocument.
>   
I don't know what "learning" there is.  You may have to find something
lurking a few items up or down in a menu; however, the things that it
can do over that of what Office can do, is pretty amazing.  It's
intuitive, and unless you're a heavy VBScript programmer, you wouldn't
be disappointed.

	- Mike

-- 
Michael B. Trausch                                      fd0man(a)gmail.com
AIM: MB Trausch                             Jabber:  mtrausch(a)jabber.com

[Nate DeSimone]

Time to Load (sec)
------------------
OpenOffice.org 2-----5.5
Office 2003----------1.2

Memory Usage after Loading
--------------------------
OpenOffice.org 2------41.7 MB
Office 2003-----------15.9 MB

    Also the argument that office "hides" its memory usage since it uses 
Windows code doesn't seem to have much bearing, if you look at the 
memory use of it running under crossover in Linux its ~20MB used by all 
the wine processes, I personally could see wine using 5MB for itself.  
I'm sorry to say it but OpenOffice is an absolute hog, it makes Office 
look lean!  Now I really do like open source software, don't get me wrong. 

    Thankfully the OpenOffice project is not the rule for the open 
source community, it is the exception.  The problem with OpenOffice is 
they inherited a horrible codebase from Sun (which was developed in a 
closed source fashion btw), and unlike the Mozilla project they did not 
attempt to fix the underlying codebase before jumping right in.  If you 
look at old versions of StarOffice you may notice that it loads up a 
unified suite, where one app does word processing, spreadsheet... 
everything.  While OpenOffice has separated the apps from each other, it 
doesn't appear all of the tightly integrated code has been unwound yet.  
When you add all that old code with Java it becomes big.  Then when you 
consider that the OpenOffice "community" is made up of mostly Sun 
employees I'm not suprised about the memory requirements *cough* Java 
*cough*.  At least google is getting involved with the intention of 
leaning it down a bit.

    Anyway my point is I personally still see good reason to stick with 
Office, and I hope that the open product becomes up to par in the future.



Michael B. Trausch wrote:

>  Murphy, Ged (Bolton) wrote:
>   
>
> >  I disagree with this. I don't know how to use
> > oo.o or variants, and I don't
> > intend on learning something I have no interest in. 
> > I'm currently putting together a presentation for the speeches I have coming
> > up on ReactOS. If a rule was put in place where we could only commit
> > OpenDocument files, I would simply not put it into the repository and would
> > instead share it with anyone who wanted it via email.
> >
> > This isn't because I'm being awkward, it's because I have no time or
> > interest to learn a new office suite .... and I certainly don't want to
> > install oo.o on my machine.
> >
> > I suppose it's this attitude which keeps MS Office up as a monopoly, which
> > now make me realise why they don't want to support OpenDocument.
> >
> >     
> >  
> I don't know what "learning" there is.  You may have to find something
> lurking a few items up or down in a menu; however, the things that it
> can do over that of what Office can do, is pretty amazing.  It's
> intuitive, and unless you're a heavy VBScript programmer, you wouldn't
> be disappointed.
>
> 	- Mike
>
>   
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ros-dev mailing list
> Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>

[Richard Campbell]

The rule not the exception?  Several open source projects out there have 
a problem with bloat....Firefox (opera is 5.15 mb on disk, Firefox is 
15.7 MB)  I'm not against open source (I wouldn't be on this list if i 
were.) but bloat is something open source developers really need to pay 
more attention to.

Nate DeSimone wrote:

>   Time to Load (sec)
>  ------------------
>  OpenOffice.org 2-----5.5
>  Office 2003----------1.2
>
>  Memory Usage after Loading
>  --------------------------
>  OpenOffice.org 2------41.7 MB
>  Office 2003-----------15.9 MB
>
>     Also the argument that office "hides" its memory usage since it 
>  uses Windows code doesn't seem to have much bearing, if you look at 
>  the memory use of it running under crossover in Linux its ~20MB used 
>  by all the wine processes, I personally could see wine using 5MB for 
>  itself.  I'm sorry to say it but OpenOffice is an absolute hog, it 
>  makes Office look lean!  Now I really do like open source software, 
>  don't get me wrong.
>     Thankfully the OpenOffice project is not the rule for the open 
>  source community, it is the exception.  The problem with OpenOffice is 
>  they inherited a horrible codebase from Sun (which was developed in a 
>  closed source fashion btw), and unlike the Mozilla project they did 
>  not attempt to fix the underlying codebase before jumping right in.  
>  If you look at old versions of StarOffice you may notice that it loads 
>  up a unified suite, where one app does word processing, spreadsheet... 
>  everything.  While OpenOffice has separated the apps from each other, 
>  it doesn't appear all of the tightly integrated code has been unwound 
>  yet.  When you add all that old code with Java it becomes big.  Then 
>  when you consider that the OpenOffice "community" is made up of mostly 
>  Sun employees I'm not suprised about the memory requirements *cough* 
>  Java *cough*.  At least google is getting involved with the intention 
>  of leaning it down a bit.
>
>     Anyway my point is I personally still see good reason to stick with 
>  Office, and I hope that the open product becomes up to par in the future.
>
>
>
>  Michael B. Trausch wrote:
>
> >   Murphy, Ged (Bolton) wrote:
> >   
> >
> > >   I disagree with this. I don't know how to use
> > > oo.o or variants, and 
> > >  I don't
> > >  intend on learning something I have no interest in. I'm currently 
> > >  putting together a presentation for the speeches I have coming
> > >  up on ReactOS. If a rule was put in place where we could only commit
> > >  OpenDocument files, I would simply not put it into the repository 
> > >  and would
> > >  instead share it with anyone who wanted it via email.
> > >
> > >  This isn't because I'm being awkward, it's because I have no time or
> > >  interest to learn a new office suite .... and I certainly don't want to
> > >  install oo.o on my machine.
> > >
> > >  I suppose it's this attitude which keeps MS Office up as a monopoly, 
> > >  which
> > >  now make me realise why they don't want to support OpenDocument.
> > >
> > >     
> >
> >  I don't know what "learning" there is.  You may have to find something
> >  lurking a few items up or down in a menu; however, the things that it
> >  can do over that of what Office can do, is pretty amazing.  It's
> >  intuitive, and unless you're a heavy VBScript programmer, you wouldn't
> >  be disappointed.
> >
> >      - Mike
> >
> >   
> >
> >  ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >  _______________________________________________
> >  Ros-dev mailing list
> >  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
> >  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> >  
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  Ros-dev mailing list
>  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
>  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>

[Michael B. Trausch]

Nate DeSimone wrote:
[snip: OO.o uses more VM then Office]
>   
>  Anyway my point is I personally still see good reason to stick with 
>  Office, and I hope that the open product becomes up to par in the
>  future.
>   
Yes, it is a bit hoggish.  I am looking forward to the reduction in its
run-time consumption requirements, too, but it's well-to-do enough that
I use it for *everything*.  While there are some people that have
Microsoft's Office, I do not have it; I simply cannot afford to purchase
it.  I use OpenOffice for everything that I do outside of work and most
things that I do *at* work.  The only things that I don't use OO.o for
are the sheets and documents at work that we use that require the use of
VBScript, which isn't terribly often, and I'm working on porting those
documents over when I have the time, as well.  We can save loads on
licensing fees if we use OpenOffice, and they have vastly improved its
capability to read documents written by other suites (such as
Microsoft's Office).  It's not perfect when reading from other suites,
but when used to save something in MS Word or MS Excel format, the
person on the other end sees what you've wrote, and it's just fine.

Add to that, the fact that it is portable, and all of a sudden, we don't
see a need to use Windows in the environments that are moving to more
and more standards-compliant web based applications.  And there are more
license fees to be saved.

All of that aside, it's only partially relevant to this conversation.
This is an open project; it only makes sense to use an open format to
document it.  Many of those who use free, open, software do not have the
ability to license programs from others due to financial constraints.
If they can't afford a license to run Windows, what makes you think that
they're going to afford a license to use MS Office?  Why not just stick
to what is supported?  Everyone can legally obtain and use
OpenOffice.org, but not everyone can legally obtain and use Microsoft
Office.

It sounds like maybe there need to be some standards created within the
project to clearly define what is and is not acceptable in the way of
document formats?  That's just an idea.

-- 
Michael B. Trausch                                      fd0man(a)gmail.com
AIM: MB Trausch                             Jabber:  mtrausch(a)jabber.com

[Sarocet]

I'm unsure about how did you measured it, but i remember MS Office had some 
tricks to be faster. It adds on windows start OSA.EXE to load prematurely 
its libraries so when you called the Office programs they were already 
half-loaded. That could also show the memory less for having the DLL loaded?


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Nate DeSimone" <desimn(a)rpi.edu>
Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2005 5:46 PM
Subject: Re: [ros-dev] Microsoft Office files in the trunk


>   Time to Load (sec)
>  ------------------
>  OpenOffice.org 2-----5.5
>  Office 2003----------1.2
>
>  Memory Usage after Loading
>  --------------------------
>  OpenOffice.org 2------41.7 MB
>  Office 2003-----------15.9 MB
>
>     Also the argument that office "hides" its memory usage since it uses 
>  Windows code doesn't seem to have much bearing, if you look at the memory 
>  use of it running under crossover in Linux its ~20MB used by all the wine 
>  processes, I personally could see wine using 5MB for itself.  I'm sorry to 
>  say it but OpenOffice is an absolute hog, it makes Office look lean!  Now 
>  I really do like open source software, don't get me wrong.
>     Thankfully the OpenOffice project is not the rule for the open source 
>  community, it is the exception.  The problem with OpenOffice is they 
>  inherited a horrible codebase from Sun (which was developed in a closed 
>  source fashion btw), and unlike the Mozilla project they did not attempt 
>  to fix the underlying codebase before jumping right in.  If you look at 
>  old versions of StarOffice you may notice that it loads up a unified 
>  suite, where one app does word processing, spreadsheet... everything. 
>  While OpenOffice has separated the apps from each other, it doesn't appear 
>  all of the tightly integrated code has been unwound yet.  When you add all 
>  that old code with Java it becomes big.  Then when you consider that the 
>  OpenOffice "community" is made up of mostly Sun employees I'm not suprised
>
>  about the memory requirements *cough* Java *cough*.  At least google is 
>  getting involved with the intention of leaning it down a bit.
>
>     Anyway my point is I personally still see good reason to stick with 
>  Office, and I hope that the open product becomes up to par in the future.
>
>
>
>  Michael B. Trausch wrote:
>
> >  Murphy, Ged (Bolton) wrote:
> >
> > >  I disagree with this. I don't know how to use
> > > oo.o or variants, and I 
> > > don't
> > > intend on learning something I have no interest in. I'm currently putting 
> > > together a presentation for the speeches I have coming
> > > up on ReactOS. If a rule was put in place where we could only commit
> > > OpenDocument files, I would simply not put it into the repository and 
> > > would
> > > instead share it with anyone who wanted it via email.
> > >
> > > This isn't because I'm being awkward, it's because I have no time or
> > > interest to learn a new office suite .... and I certainly don't want to
> > > install oo.o on my machine.
> > >
> > > I suppose it's this attitude which keeps MS Office up as a monopoly, 
> > > which
> > > now make me realise why they don't want to support OpenDocument.
> > >
> > >  
> > I don't know what "learning" there is.  You may have to find something
> > lurking a few items up or down in a menu; however, the things that it
> > can do over that of what Office can do, is pretty amazing.  It's
> > intuitive, and unless you're a heavy VBScript programmer, you wouldn't
> > be disappointed.
> >
> >  - Mike
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Ros-dev mailing list
> > Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
> > http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> >  
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  Ros-dev mailing list
>  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
>  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev

[Nate DeSimone]

I measured via the windows task manager, under linux I summed the memory 
use by all the wine processes.


Sarocet wrote:

>   I'm unsure about how did you measured it, but i
> remember MS Office had 
>  some tricks to be faster. It adds on windows start OSA.EXE to load 
>  prematurely its libraries so when you called the Office programs they 
>  were already half-loaded. That could also show the memory less for 
>  having the DLL loaded?
>
>
>  ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nate DeSimone" <desimn(a)rpi.edu>
>  Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2005 5:46 PM
>  Subject: Re: [ros-dev] Microsoft Office files in the trunk
>
>
> >   Time to Load (sec)
> >  ------------------
> >  OpenOffice.org 2-----5.5
> >  Office 2003----------1.2
> >
> >  Memory Usage after Loading
> >  --------------------------
> >  OpenOffice.org 2------41.7 MB
> >  Office 2003-----------15.9 MB
> >
> >     Also the argument that office "hides" its memory usage since it 
> >  uses Windows code doesn't seem to have much bearing, if you look at 
> >  the memory use of it running under crossover in Linux its ~20MB used 
> >  by all the wine processes, I personally could see wine using 5MB for 
> >  itself.  I'm sorry to say it but OpenOffice is an absolute hog, it 
> >  makes Office look lean!  Now I really do like open source software, 
> >  don't get me wrong.
> >     Thankfully the OpenOffice project is not the rule for the open 
> >  source community, it is the exception.  The problem with OpenOffice 
> >  is they inherited a horrible codebase from Sun (which was developed 
> >  in a closed source fashion btw), and unlike the Mozilla project they 
> >  did not attempt to fix the underlying codebase before jumping right 
> >  in.  If you look at old versions of StarOffice you may notice that it 
> >  loads up a unified suite, where one app does word processing, 
> >  spreadsheet... everything. While OpenOffice has separated the apps 
> >  from each other, it doesn't appear all of the tightly integrated code 
> >  has been unwound yet.  When you add all that old code with Java it 
> >  becomes big.  Then when you consider that the OpenOffice "community" 
> >  is made up of mostly Sun employees I'm not suprised about the memory 
> >  requirements *cough* Java *cough*.  At least google is getting 
> >  involved with the intention of leaning it down a bit.
> >
> >     Anyway my point is I personally still see good reason to stick 
> >  with Office, and I hope that the open product becomes up to par in 
> >  the future.
> >
> >
> >
> >  Michael B. Trausch wrote:
> >
> > >   Murphy, Ged (Bolton) wrote:
> > >
> > > >   I disagree with this. I don't know how to use
> > > > oo.o or variants, and 
> > > >  I don't
> > > >  intend on learning something I have no interest in. I'm currently 
> > > >  putting together a presentation for the speeches I have coming
> > > >  up on ReactOS. If a rule was put in place where we could only commit
> > > >  OpenDocument files, I would simply not put it into the repository 
> > > >  and would
> > > >  instead share it with anyone who wanted it via email.
> > > >
> > > >  This isn't because I'm being awkward, it's because I have no time or
> > > >  interest to learn a new office suite .... and I certainly don't 
> > > >  want to
> > > >  install oo.o on my machine.
> > > >
> > > >  I suppose it's this attitude which keeps MS Office up as a 
> > > >  monopoly, which
> > > >  now make me realise why they don't want to support OpenDocument.
> > > >
> > > >  
> > >  I don't know what "learning" there is.  You may have to find something
> > >  lurking a few items up or down in a menu; however, the things that it
> > >  can do over that of what Office can do, is pretty amazing.  It's
> > >  intuitive, and unless you're a heavy VBScript programmer, you wouldn't
> > >  be disappointed.
> > >
> > >  - Mike
> > >
> > >
> > >  ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
> > >
> > >
> > >  _______________________________________________
> > >  Ros-dev mailing list
> > >  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
> > >  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> > >  
> >
> >  _______________________________________________
> >  Ros-dev mailing list
> >  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
> >  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev  
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  Ros-dev mailing list
>  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
>  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>
>

[Magnus Olsen]

It is up each person which format he like to use.
I need ppt and doc.
and some time pdf


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Murphy, Ged (Bolton)" <MurphyG(a)cmpbatteries.co.uk>
To: "'ReactOS Development List'" <ros-dev(a)reactos.org>
Sent: den 10 November 2005 09:27
Subject: RE: [ros-dev] Microsoft Office files in the trunk


>   Mike Swanson wrote:
>
> >   In the branch of press-media, there are two
> > documents currently. An MS
> >  Word and MS PowerPoint document.
> >
> >  I'm calling for SVN committers for _no more_ MS Office documents. They
> >  are a proprietary format, of which not all the features are currently
> >  known. I recommend instead the use of OASIS OpenDocument. Not only
> >  does it save much space, but it also does not contain any secrets in
> >  which need to be reverse engineered to discover.
> >  
>  [...]
> >  
> >  Please, for the good of the project, use the free OpenDocument format.
> >  If not for the reason of being open or free, but simply for the fact
> >  that it ensures that everybody will be able to view such documents (no
> >  need to buy any pricey office suites here!). 
>  I disagree with this. I don't know how to use oo.o or variants, and I
don't
>   intend on learning something I have no interest in.
>  I'm currently putting together a presentation for the speeches I have 
coming
>   up on ReactOS. If a rule was put in place where we
> could only commit
>  OpenDocument files, I would simply not put it into the repository and 
would
>   instead share it with anyone who wanted it via email.
>
>  This isn't because I'm being awkward, it's because I have no time or
>  interest to learn a new office suite .... and I certainly don't want to
>  install oo.o on my machine.
>
>  I suppose it's this attitude which keeps MS Office up as a monopoly, which
>  now make me realise why they don't want to support OpenDocument.
>
>
>  ************************************************************************
>  The information contained in this message or any of its
>  attachments is confidential and is intended for the exclusive
>  use of the addressee. The information may also be legally
>  privileged. The views expressed may not be company policy,
>  but the personal views of the originator. If you are not the
>  addressee, any disclosure, reproduction, distribution or other
>  dissemination or use of this communication is strictly prohibited.
>  If you have received this message in error, please contact
>  postmaster(a)exideuk.co.uk
>  <mailto:[e-mail]> and then delete this message.
>
>  Exide Technologies is an industrial and transportation battery
>  producer and recycler with operations in 89 countries.
>  Further information can be found at www.exide.com
>
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  Ros-dev mailing list
>  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
>  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>
>
>  -- 
>  No virus found in this incoming message.
>  Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>  Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.12.8/165 - Release Date: 2005-11-09
>
>