What Happened

[Rick Langschultz]

I have a question:

Where is everyone on the list. I have only received a few mailing  
list posts in the past couple of days. I know that there has been a  
scandle as of late, but does that stop mailing list posting? What is  
the deal?

[Maarten Bosma]

Rick Langschultz wrote:
> I have a question:
>
> Where is everyone on the list. I have only received a few mailing  list 
> posts in the past couple of days. I know that there has been a  scandle 
> as of late, but does that stop mailing list posting? What is  the deal?

I think I can solve that puzzle. Since that scandal we got a private 
mailing list just for developers. ;)

Maarten Bosma

[Rick Langschultz]

I don't think that is fair. Since ReactOS is a community project, the  
community (world) should be allowed to at least view that mailing  
list archive.

My support for reactos went out the window I think...
On Feb 8, 2006, at 12:27 PM, Maarten Bosma wrote:
> Rick Langschultz wrote:
> > I have a question:
> > Where is everyone on the list. I have only received a few mailing   
> > list posts in the past couple of days. I know that there has been  
> > a  scandle as of late, but does that stop mailing list posting?  
> > What is  the deal?
>
> I think I can solve that puzzle. Since that scandal we got a  
> private mailing list just for developers. ;)
>
> Maarten Bosma
> _______________________________________________
> Ros-dev mailing list
> [e-mail]
> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev

[James Hawkins]

On 2/8/06, Rick Langschultz [e-mail] wrote:
> I don't think that is fair. Since ReactOS is a community project, the
> community (world) should be allowed to at least view that mailing
> list archive.
>
> My support for reactos went out the window I think...

Agreed.  If the project is moving away from illegal practices, using a
private mailing list looks suspicious.  What do you have to hide now
that all the ghosts are out of the closet?  It also comes off as
elitist, which turns away would-be developers.

--
James Hawkins

[Rick Langschultz]

My point exactly, i want to develop great programs and add-ons to  
ReactOS, but creating a non-public mailing list is wrong. I was  
working on an NT VFS for the FAT implementation. Maybe I will  
contribute down the road, but I am a bit put off by the whole private  
mailing list thing...
On Feb 8, 2006, at 1:57 PM, James Hawkins wrote:
> On 2/8/06, Rick Langschultz [e-mail] wrote:
> > I don't think that is fair. Since ReactOS is a community project, the
> > community (world) should be allowed to at least view that mailing
> > list archive.
> >
> > My support for reactos went out the window I think...
>
> Agreed.  If the project is moving away from illegal practices, using a
> private mailing list looks suspicious.  What do you have to hide now
> that all the ghosts are out of the closet?  It also comes off as
> elitist, which turns away would-be developers.
>
> --
> James Hawkins
>
> Ros-dev mailing list
> [e-mail]
> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev

[art yerkes]

On Wed, 8 Feb 2006 14:04:27 -0600
Rick Langschultz [e-mail] wrote:
> My point exactly, i want to develop great programs and add-ons to  
> ReactOS, but creating a non-public mailing list is wrong. I was  
> working on an NT VFS for the FAT implementation. Maybe I will  
> contribute down the road, but I am a bit put off by the whole private  
> mailing list thing...
> On Feb 8, 2006, at 1:57 PM, James Hawkins wrote:
> > On 2/8/06, Rick Langschultz [e-mail] wrote:
> > > I don't think that is fair. Since ReactOS is a community project, the
> > > community (world) should be allowed to at least view that mailing
> > > list archive.
> > >
> > > My support for reactos went out the window I think...
> >
> > Agreed.  If the project is moving away from illegal practices, using a
> > private mailing list looks suspicious.  What do you have to hide now
> > that all the ghosts are out of the closet?  It also comes off as
> > elitist, which turns away would-be developers.

The purpose of the private list is to keep questions posed therein from
escalating into problems of their own through rumor and accusation.  We
need to be able to post questions and answer honestly without alarmism.
-- 
Discordant is the murmur at such treading down of lovely things while
god's most lordly gift to man is decency of mind.  Call that man only
blest who has in sweet tranquility brought his life to close.
If only I could act as such, my hope is good.
-- Aeschylus' Agamemnon (translated by H. W. Smyth)

[Rick Langschultz]

"The ReactOS(r) project is dedicated to making Free Software  
available to everyone by providing a ground-up implementation of a  
Microsoft Windows(r) XP compatible operating system." Why not say I  
am sorry ReactOS is off limits to you, the community, because people  
steal, cheat and lie. It is said that good programmers steal code,  
and great programmers know whose code to steal... Stealing M$ code is  
obviously not the wisest choice...

I will continue to develop my own personal ReactOS code but I don't  
think I will contribute it to ReactOS. My implementation of the NT  
VFS over FAT will be rolled into a new project. And be able to be  
downloaded by ROS developers and community members.

Ridiculous...

[Brandon Turner]

Rick Langschultz wrote:
> "The ReactOS(r) project is dedicated to making Free Software  
> available to everyone by providing a ground-up implementation of a  
> Microsoft Windows(r) XP compatible operating system." Why not say I  
> am sorry ReactOS is off limits to you, the community, because people  
> steal, cheat and lie. It is said that good programmers steal code,  
> and great programmers know whose code to steal... Stealing M$ code is  
> obviously not the wisest choice...
>
> I will continue to develop my own personal ReactOS code but I don't  
> think I will contribute it to ReactOS. My implementation of the NT  
> VFS over FAT will be rolled into a new project. And be able to be  
> downloaded by ROS developers and community members.
>
> Ridiculous...
> _______________________________________________
> Ros-dev mailing list
> [e-mail]
> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev

Do you also suggest that we also should not talk on AIM, IRC private 
messages, and skype?

Brandon

[Brian]

Hello Reactos Devs,

I haven't been checking my ROS-DEV labled stuff in a while, and after
reading all my back-emails, i wish i haden't. I am very upset that I was
defending a pearson who was guilty, but i guess that just goes to show you,
black and white are just shades of gray.
> Do you also suggest that we also should not talk on AIM, IRC private
> messages, and skype?

Come on, lets be serious. Having the one public dev list is the no. 1 way to
keep new devs interested in the project, and to help expose problems such as
the hole dirty reversing' , and helps discurage devs from doing such,
because everyone will know if they do. On top of that, It provides a place
for people to ask things (a rather good place) about the code, and the devs
are paying attention to it (kinda).

brian
friend of ReactOS

[Ged Murphy]

Brian wrote:
> Come on, lets be serious. Having the one public dev list is the no. 1 
> way to keep new devs interested in the project, and to help expose 
> problems such as the hole dirty reversing' , and helps discurage devs 
> from doing such, because everyone will know if they do. On top of 
> that, It provides a place for people to ask things (a rather good 
> place) about the code, and the devs are paying attention to it (kinda).

Ros-Dev hasn't been removed. 
It's quiet because the whole project is quiet, no development work is 
currently taking place.
Not only is ros-dev quiet, but so is IRC, as is the private mailing list.

This isn't anything to do with the developers all chatting secretly 
underground, it's due to the fact that the project is currently lying 
dormant.

Once the devs have taken a break and taken the time to work out where to 
go next, activity should resume :)

Ged.

[Brian]

On 2/8/06, Ged Murphy [e-mail] wrote:
> Brian wrote:
> > Come on, lets be serious. Having the one public dev list is the no. 1
> > way to keep new devs interested in the project, and to help expose
> > problems such as the hole dirty reversing' , and helps discurage devs
> > from doing such, because everyone will know if they do. On top of
> > that, It provides a place for people to ask things (a rather good
> > place) about the code, and the devs are paying attention to it (kinda).
>
> Ros-Dev hasn't been removed.
> It's quiet because the whole project is quiet, no development work is
> currently taking place.
> Not only is ros-dev quiet, but so is IRC, as is the private mailing list.
>
> This isn't anything to do with the developers all chatting secretly
> underground, it's due to the fact that the project is currently lying
> dormant.
>
> Once the devs have taken a break and taken the time to work out where to
> go next, activity should resume :)
>
> Ged.
>
> Ros-dev mailing list
> [e-mail]
> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev

Thanks Ged, i thought i was gonna have to call in a corener, and call it
dead.

brian
friend of ReactOS

[Ged Murphy]

Rick Langschultz wrote:
> "The ReactOS(r) project is dedicated to making Free Software available 
> to everyone by providing a ground-up implementation of a Microsoft 
> Windows(r) XP compatible operating system." Why not say I am sorry 
> ReactOS is off limits to you, the community, because people steal, 
> cheat and lie. It is said that good programmers steal code, and great 
> programmers know whose code to steal... Stealing M$ code is obviously 
> not the wisest choice...
>
> I will continue to develop my own personal ReactOS code but I don't 
> think I will contribute it to ReactOS. My implementation of the NT VFS 
> over FAT will be rolled into a new project. And be able to be 
> downloaded by ROS developers and community members.
>
> Ridiculous...

As is your attitude ...

The ReactOS developers have spent thousands upon thousands of hours 
writing a free operating system for the world to use.
It has become so large now, that the inner workings are becoming 
business like, and measures must be put into place to deal with this.
If you can't accept that developers need a place where they can discuss 
topics, have arguments and sort out issues, out of the public eye then 
that's your problem. I'm positive Linux and BSD have somewhere where 
developers can discuss issues, as do most other large (and even small) 
projects  Maybe we should take minutes of any telephone conversations we 
have and post those too?

I for one am glad you won't be committing any code. You attitude sounds 
like it would generate more problems than it's worth.

[Rick Langschultz]

Don't get me wrong, reactos is a great programming idea. The way some  
people do things is not necessarily what the community would want. As  
a long term web developer I had an interest in VFS implementation of  
NTFS over FAT or other filesystem. Creating a private mailing list  
not available to the community restricts information from getting to  
developers that want to continue to develop reactos, whether they  
commit or not. Everyone has the right to develop what they think  
ReactOS needs. Personally I think ReactOS needs stable Networking, a  
more stable and secure filesystem, and service implementation. I also  
think that building a universal install disk would be great --  
install on PowerPC, intel, arm, all on one cd would be great. I am  
not willing to give up on programming projects so I will continue  
developing code, but when the audit is complete I just hope 99% of  
the community is there to back ReactOS up...

On Feb 8, 2006, at 4:05 PM, Ged Murphy wrote:
> Rick Langschultz wrote:
> > "The ReactOS(r) project is dedicated to making Free Software  
> > available to everyone by providing a ground-up implementation of a  
> > Microsoft Windows(r) XP compatible operating system." Why not say  
> > I am sorry ReactOS is off limits to you, the community, because  
> > people steal, cheat and lie. It is said that good programmers  
> > steal code, and great programmers know whose code to steal...  
> > Stealing M$ code is obviously not the wisest choice...
> >
> > I will continue to develop my own personal ReactOS code but I  
> > don't think I will contribute it to ReactOS. My implementation of  
> > the NT VFS over FAT will be rolled into a new project. And be able  
> > to be downloaded by ROS developers and community members.
> >
> > Ridiculous...
>
> As is your attitude ...
>
> The ReactOS developers have spent thousands upon thousands of hours  
> writing a free operating system for the world to use.
> It has become so large now, that the inner workings are becoming  
> business like, and measures must be put into place to deal with this.
> If you can't accept that developers need a place where they can  
> discuss topics, have arguments and sort out issues, out of the  
> public eye then that's your problem. I'm positive Linux and BSD  
> have somewhere where developers can discuss issues, as do most  
> other large (and even small) projects  Maybe we should take minutes  
> of any telephone conversations we have and post those too?
>
> I for one am glad you won't be committing any code. You attitude  
> sounds like it would generate more problems than it's worth.
> _______________________________________________
> Ros-dev mailing list
> [e-mail]
> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev

[Brandon Turner]

Rick Langschultz wrote:
> Don't get me wrong, reactos is a great programming idea. The way some  
> people do things is not necessarily what the community would want.

I 100% agree with both those statements.  Sadly this is the point in 
your email agree with.
> As  a long term web developer I had an interest in VFS implementation 
> of  NTFS over FAT or other filesystem. Creating a private mailing 
> list  not available to the community restricts information from 
> getting to  developers that want to continue to develop reactos, 
> whether they  commit or not.

We arent withholding information that would even be considered 
"somewhat" useful to new developers.
> Everyone has the right to develop what they think  ReactOS needs.

How are we preventing this with a private mailing list?  Bugzilla is 
still open, the svn is still open.  We are still active on ros-dev, and 
in IRC.
> Personally I think ReactOS needs stable Networking, a  more stable and 
> secure filesystem, and service implementation. I also  think that 
> building a universal install disk would be great --  install on 
> PowerPC, intel, arm, all on one cd would be great. I am  not willing 
> to give up on programming projects so I will continue  developing 
> code, but when the audit is complete I just hope 99% of  the community 
> is there to back ReactOS up...

No one asked you to give up on working with ROS. You somehow took a 
simple comment someone made about a private mailing list that only has 
commiters on it to mean that we banished others from working on ROS.

Brandon

[Magnus Olsen]

The priv mailing list we are talking about sentive stuff.
on publuc list we do not talk about sentive stuff.

And it is good for us and for the public.

prv-list  it do not create rumus or miss intrepet stuff untill we all are
agreed
 then we go public with the info.  and I think it is good idea.

we are not baning the dev-list we talking alot of stuff there.
as well

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Rick Langschultz" [e-mail]
To: "ReactOS Development List" [e-mail]
Sent: den 8 February 2006 20:39
Subject: Re: [ros-dev] What Happened
> I don't think that is fair. Since ReactOS is a community project, the
> community (world) should be allowed to at least view that mailing
> list archive.
>
> My support for reactos went out the window I think...
> On Feb 8, 2006, at 12:27 PM, Maarten Bosma wrote:
> > Rick Langschultz wrote:
> > > I have a question:
> > > Where is everyone on the list. I have only received a few mailing
> > > list posts in the past couple of days. I know that there has been
> > > a  scandle as of late, but does that stop mailing list posting?
> > > What is  the deal?
> >
> > I think I can solve that puzzle. Since that scandal we got a
> > private mailing list just for developers. ;)
> >
> > Maarten Bosma
> > _______________________________________________
> > Ros-dev mailing list
> > [e-mail]
> > http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>
> Ros-dev mailing list
> [e-mail]
> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev