Win32 subsystem in 2013

[Aleksey Bragin]

Hi,
this message is a bit provocative, but please don't be offended by it. 
You all did a wonderful work during this year. Thank you!

It's very good to see the work is going on. Just for fun, when I had 
spare 15 minutes, I decided to check, what was done in the win32 
subsystem during this year by the major, respectable and very old time 
ReactOS developer, and whether my proposal with Arwinss still stands or not.

Here is what I found: (analyzing ~ 62 commits by jimtabor):

- 25 revisions: Fixes/hacks of our code (ReactOS-specific bug, works in 
Wine, sometimes says in comments "//// ReactOS : Justin Case something 
goes wrong.") (revs 58528, 58562, 58563, 58633, 58773, 58999, 59000, 
59201, 60054, 60587, 60590, 60592, 60622, 60626, 60659, 60676, 60677, 
60881, 61078, 61079, 61142, 61250, 61251, 61292, 61458)

- 13 revisions: Syncs with Wine (revs 59157, 59158, 59159, 60763, 60784, 
60807, 60820, 60858, 60863, 60865, 60867, 61244, 61422)

- 14 revisions: Own code development or rewriting old code, some of 
which might have been derived from ancient versions of Wine.
(60387, 60389, 60394, 60539, 60599, 60602, 60660, 60682, 60683, 60684, 
60718, 60883, 60976, 60992)

- 1 revision: attempt to fix a bug found in Wine (revision 60054, issue 
CORE-6024)

You don't need to be a scientist to see that 61% of the changes went 
into fixing ReactOS specific bugs or just bringing in newer Wine code to 
fix old Wine bugs. Remaining 22% of efforts was spent on actually 
developing our own, assumingly better code, and just 1 revision was 
spent on such a glorious thing as fixing Wine's bug.

ReactOS is a just for fun type of project, so I highly appreciate that 
efforts were put into all of the above!
However, I still think that it would be beneficial if someone would put 
similar efforts into Arwinss to eliminate the need to bring in hacks and 
fix stuff which works in Wine for years already, and focus on developing 
only those parts which we obviously can't share (GDI, hardware 
accelerated graphics, whatever else).

I lack time to do this myself, but if anyone volunteers I would be glad 
to help, share my experience and think up of interesting tasks. Like, 
getting Arwinss to work in Windows 2003 instead of its native subsystem, 
which would be a nice test.

Regards,
Aleksey Bragin

[Timo Kreuzer]

Well, some people prefer working on Arwinss, some people prefer working
on the old win32 subsystem, some people prefer working on a C++ memory
manager ... ;-)


Am 28.12.2013 21:52, schrieb Aleksey Bragin:
>   Hi,
>  this message is a bit provocative, but please don't be offended by it.
>  You all did a wonderful work during this year. Thank you!
>
>  It's very good to see the work is going on. Just for fun, when I had
>  spare 15 minutes, I decided to check, what was done in the win32
>  subsystem during this year by the major, respectable and very old time
>  ReactOS developer, and whether my proposal with Arwinss still stands
>  or not.
>
>  Here is what I found: (analyzing ~ 62 commits by jimtabor):
>
>  - 25 revisions: Fixes/hacks of our code (ReactOS-specific bug, works
>  in Wine, sometimes says in comments "//// ReactOS : Justin Case
>  something goes wrong.") (revs 58528, 58562, 58563, 58633, 58773,
>  58999, 59000, 59201, 60054, 60587, 60590, 60592, 60622, 60626, 60659,
>  60676, 60677, 60881, 61078, 61079, 61142, 61250, 61251, 61292, 61458)
>
>  - 13 revisions: Syncs with Wine (revs 59157, 59158, 59159, 60763,
>  60784, 60807, 60820, 60858, 60863, 60865, 60867, 61244, 61422)
>
>  - 14 revisions: Own code development or rewriting old code, some of
>  which might have been derived from ancient versions of Wine.
>  (60387, 60389, 60394, 60539, 60599, 60602, 60660, 60682, 60683, 60684,
>  60718, 60883, 60976, 60992)
>
>  - 1 revision: attempt to fix a bug found in Wine (revision 60054,
>  issue CORE-6024)
>
>  You don't need to be a scientist to see that 61% of the changes went
>  into fixing ReactOS specific bugs or just bringing in newer Wine code
>  to fix old Wine bugs. Remaining 22% of efforts was spent on actually
>  developing our own, assumingly better code, and just 1 revision was
>  spent on such a glorious thing as fixing Wine's bug.
>
>  ReactOS is a just for fun type of project, so I highly appreciate that
>  efforts were put into all of the above!
>  However, I still think that it would be beneficial if someone would
>  put similar efforts into Arwinss to eliminate the need to bring in
>  hacks and fix stuff which works in Wine for years already, and focus
>  on developing only those parts which we obviously can't share (GDI,
>  hardware accelerated graphics, whatever else).
>
>  I lack time to do this myself, but if anyone volunteers I would be
>  glad to help, share my experience and think up of interesting tasks.
>  Like, getting Arwinss to work in Windows 2003 instead of its native
>  subsystem, which would be a nice test.
>
>  Regards,
>  Aleksey Bragin
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  Ros-dev mailing list
>  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
>  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>

[James Tabor]

Well.
Moving forwarded is hard for the weak heart. We strive to survive.

Arwiness will fail.

Testing so far proves this. Without X11 wine could not do the things
it can. Seems also, Mac OS does the same thing, filling in those holes
that wine lacks. Hacking X11 is the same, you need to know where to
place the traces. Stay actively focus there is still more to come into
the foreground.

Everyone all around say, "2014 is their year". Let this be ReactOS year!

Happy New Year ReactOS,
James


On 12/29/13, Timo Kreuzer <timo.kreuzer(a)web.de> wrote:
>  
>  Well, some people prefer working on Arwinss, some people prefer working
>  on the old win32 subsystem, some people prefer working on a C++ memory
>  manager ... ;-)
>
>
>  Am 28.12.2013 21:52, schrieb Aleksey Bragin:
> >   Hi,
> >  this message is a bit provocative, but please don't be offended by it.
> >  You all did a wonderful work during this year. Thank you!
> >
> >  It's very good to see the work is going on. Just for fun, when I had
> >  spare 15 minutes, I decided to check, what was done in the win32
> >  subsystem during this year by the major, respectable and very old time
> >  ReactOS developer, and whether my proposal with Arwinss still stands
> >  or not.
> >
> >  Here is what I found: (analyzing ~ 62 commits by jimtabor):
> >
> >  - 25 revisions: Fixes/hacks of our code (ReactOS-specific bug, works
> >  in Wine, sometimes says in comments "//// ReactOS : Justin Case
> >  something goes wrong.") (revs 58528, 58562, 58563, 58633, 58773,
> >  58999, 59000, 59201, 60054, 60587, 60590, 60592, 60622, 60626, 60659,
> >  60676, 60677, 60881, 61078, 61079, 61142, 61250, 61251, 61292, 61458)
> >
> >  - 13 revisions: Syncs with Wine (revs 59157, 59158, 59159, 60763,
> >  60784, 60807, 60820, 60858, 60863, 60865, 60867, 61244, 61422)
> >
> >  - 14 revisions: Own code development or rewriting old code, some of
> >  which might have been derived from ancient versions of Wine.
> >  (60387, 60389, 60394, 60539, 60599, 60602, 60660, 60682, 60683, 60684,
> >  60718, 60883, 60976, 60992)
> >
> >  - 1 revision: attempt to fix a bug found in Wine (revision 60054,
> >  issue CORE-6024)
> >
> >  You don't need to be a scientist to see that 61% of the changes went
> >  into fixing ReactOS specific bugs or just bringing in newer Wine code
> >  to fix old Wine bugs. Remaining 22% of efforts was spent on actually
> >  developing our own, assumingly better code, and just 1 revision was
> >  spent on such a glorious thing as fixing Wine's bug.
> >
> >  ReactOS is a just for fun type of project, so I highly appreciate that
> >  efforts were put into all of the above!
> >  However, I still think that it would be beneficial if someone would
> >  put similar efforts into Arwinss to eliminate the need to bring in
> >  hacks and fix stuff which works in Wine for years already, and focus
> >  on developing only those parts which we obviously can't share (GDI,
> >  hardware accelerated graphics, whatever else).
> >
> >  I lack time to do this myself, but if anyone volunteers I would be
> >  glad to help, share my experience and think up of interesting tasks.
> >  Like, getting Arwinss to work in Windows 2003 instead of its native
> >  subsystem, which would be a nice test.
> >
> >  Regards,
> >  Aleksey Bragin
> >
> >  _______________________________________________
> >  Ros-dev mailing list
> >  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
> >  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> >  
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  Ros-dev mailing list
>  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
>  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>

[Aleksey Bragin]

Thanks, I thought I would end up talking to myself :-)

Well, I totally eliminated X11 out of Wine. It was not that hard really, 
nearly all good code was in place already, the only thing which I had to 
develop was a very small "window manager". Literally, which would manage 
list of windows in the current window station and desktop, and issue 
redraw messages when certain window gets focus.

"A little flame never killed nobody"

Regards,
Aleksey

On 30.12.2013 8:17, James Tabor wrote:
>   Well.
>  Moving forwarded is hard for the weak heart. We strive to survive.
>
>  Arwiness will fail.
>
>  Testing so far proves this. Without X11 wine could not do the things
>  it can. Seems also, Mac OS does the same thing, filling in those holes
>  that wine lacks. Hacking X11 is the same, you need to know where to
>  place the traces. Stay actively focus there is still more to come into
>  the foreground.
>
>  Everyone all around say, "2014 is their year". Let this be ReactOS year!
>
>  Happy New Year ReactOS,
>  James
>
>
>  On 12/29/13, Timo Kreuzer <timo.kreuzer(a)web.de> wrote:
> > Well, some people prefer working on Arwinss, some people prefer working
> > on the old win32 subsystem, some people prefer working on a C++ memory
> > manager ... ;-)
> >
> >
> > Am 28.12.2013 21:52, schrieb Aleksey Bragin:
> >> Hi,
> >> this message is a bit provocative, but please don't be offended by it.
> >> You all did a wonderful work during this year. Thank you!
> >>
> >> It's very good to see the work is going on. Just for fun, when I had
> >> spare 15 minutes, I decided to check, what was done in the win32
> >> subsystem during this year by the major, respectable and very old time
> >> ReactOS developer, and whether my proposal with Arwinss still stands
> >> or not.
> >>
> >> Here is what I found: (analyzing ~ 62 commits by jimtabor):
> >>
> >> - 25 revisions: Fixes/hacks of our code (ReactOS-specific bug, works
> >> in Wine, sometimes says in comments "//// ReactOS : Justin Case
> >> something goes wrong.") (revs 58528, 58562, 58563, 58633, 58773,
> >> 58999, 59000, 59201, 60054, 60587, 60590, 60592, 60622, 60626, 60659,
> >> 60676, 60677, 60881, 61078, 61079, 61142, 61250, 61251, 61292, 61458)
> >>
> >> - 13 revisions: Syncs with Wine (revs 59157, 59158, 59159, 60763,
> >> 60784, 60807, 60820, 60858, 60863, 60865, 60867, 61244, 61422)
> >>
> >> - 14 revisions: Own code development or rewriting old code, some of
> >> which might have been derived from ancient versions of Wine.
> >> (60387, 60389, 60394, 60539, 60599, 60602, 60660, 60682, 60683, 60684,
> >> 60718, 60883, 60976, 60992)
> >>
> >> - 1 revision: attempt to fix a bug found in Wine (revision 60054,
> >> issue CORE-6024)
> >>
> >> You don't need to be a scientist to see that 61% of the changes went
> >> into fixing ReactOS specific bugs or just bringing in newer Wine code
> >> to fix old Wine bugs. Remaining 22% of efforts was spent on actually
> >> developing our own, assumingly better code, and just 1 revision was
> >> spent on such a glorious thing as fixing Wine's bug.
> >>
> >> ReactOS is a just for fun type of project, so I highly appreciate that
> >> efforts were put into all of the above!
> >> However, I still think that it would be beneficial if someone would
> >> put similar efforts into Arwinss to eliminate the need to bring in
> >> hacks and fix stuff which works in Wine for years already, and focus
> >> on developing only those parts which we obviously can't share (GDI,
> >> hardware accelerated graphics, whatever else).
> >>
> >> I lack time to do this myself, but if anyone volunteers I would be
> >> glad to help, share my experience and think up of interesting tasks.
> >> Like, getting Arwinss to work in Windows 2003 instead of its native
> >> subsystem, which would be a nice test.
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >> Aleksey Bragin
> >>

[Steven Edwards]

Hi,
Having a version of Wine that could run on top of Windows could have some
interesting commercial uses.

If one we were able to take the window manager that Arwinss uses and have
it link to the Windows version of the X11 libraries and were be able to
display Win32 applications over an X11 session to other clients, it would
have the advantage of working better than RDP for Linux and MacOS Thin
Clients and be much more compatible with existing applications than a
Linux+Wine solution. I would love to have a Linux Terminal Server solution
that didn't suck for Windows apps.

Right now using something like LTSP+Wine still sucks, where if we could
drop a ReactOS VM or Windows instance to host only those apps that are
needed, I know of several people that would use it instead of Wine for
their thin-clients.

I think this effort really needs to be done outside of ReactOS itself until
it is viable on it's own. I mean if Arwinss is able to independently run on
Windows, then certainly ReactOS should run it, however I think for various
reasons it is going to be viewed as an extra project outside of the core of
ReactOS until it is finished. At least that is the vibe I get from everyone
I've ever spoken with about it.

Thanks
Steven


On Mon, Dec 30, 2013 at 3:33 AM, Aleksey Bragin <aleksey(a)reactos.org> wrote:

>   Thanks, I thought I would end up talking to myself
> :-)
>
>  Well, I totally eliminated X11 out of Wine. It was not that hard really,
>  nearly all good code was in place already, the only thing which I had to
>  develop was a very small "window manager". Literally, which would manage
>  list of windows in the current window station and desktop, and issue redraw
>  messages when certain window gets focus.
>
>  "A little flame never killed nobody"
>
>  Regards,
>  Aleksey
>
>
>  On 30.12.2013 8:17, James Tabor wrote:
>
> >   Well.
> >  Moving forwarded is hard for the weak heart. We strive to survive.
> >
> >  Arwiness will fail.
> >
> >  Testing so far proves this. Without X11 wine could not do the things
> >  it can. Seems also, Mac OS does the same thing, filling in those holes
> >  that wine lacks. Hacking X11 is the same, you need to know where to
> >  place the traces. Stay actively focus there is still more to come into
> >  the foreground.
> >
> >  Everyone all around say, "2014 is their year". Let this be ReactOS year!
> >
> >  Happy New Year ReactOS,
> >  James
> >
> >
> >  On 12/29/13, Timo Kreuzer <timo.kreuzer(a)web.de> wrote:
> >
> > > Well, some people prefer working on Arwinss, some people prefer working
> > > on the old win32 subsystem, some people prefer working on a C++ memory
> > > manager ... ;-)
> > >
> > >
> > > Am 28.12.2013 21:52, schrieb Aleksey Bragin:
> > >
> > >> Hi,
> > >> this message is a bit provocative, but please don't be offended by it.
> > >> You all did a wonderful work during this year. Thank you!
> > >>
> > >> It's very good to see the work is going on. Just for fun, when I had
> > >> spare 15 minutes, I decided to check, what was done in the win32
> > >> subsystem during this year by the major, respectable and very old time
> > >> ReactOS developer, and whether my proposal with Arwinss still stands
> > >> or not.
> > >>
> > >> Here is what I found: (analyzing ~ 62 commits by jimtabor):
> > >>
> > >> - 25 revisions: Fixes/hacks of our code (ReactOS-specific bug, works
> > >> in Wine, sometimes says in comments "//// ReactOS : Justin Case
> > >> something goes wrong.") (revs 58528, 58562, 58563, 58633, 58773,
> > >> 58999, 59000, 59201, 60054, 60587, 60590, 60592, 60622, 60626, 60659,
> > >> 60676, 60677, 60881, 61078, 61079, 61142, 61250, 61251, 61292, 61458)
> > >>
> > >> - 13 revisions: Syncs with Wine (revs 59157, 59158, 59159, 60763,
> > >> 60784, 60807, 60820, 60858, 60863, 60865, 60867, 61244, 61422)
> > >>
> > >> - 14 revisions: Own code development or rewriting old code, some of
> > >> which might have been derived from ancient versions of Wine.
> > >> (60387, 60389, 60394, 60539, 60599, 60602, 60660, 60682, 60683, 60684,
> > >> 60718, 60883, 60976, 60992)
> > >>
> > >> - 1 revision: attempt to fix a bug found in Wine (revision 60054,
> > >> issue CORE-6024)
> > >>
> > >> You don't need to be a scientist to see that 61% of the changes went
> > >> into fixing ReactOS specific bugs or just bringing in newer Wine code
> > >> to fix old Wine bugs. Remaining 22% of efforts was spent on actually
> > >> developing our own, assumingly better code, and just 1 revision was
> > >> spent on such a glorious thing as fixing Wine's bug.
> > >>
> > >> ReactOS is a just for fun type of project, so I highly appreciate that
> > >> efforts were put into all of the above!
> > >> However, I still think that it would be beneficial if someone would
> > >> put similar efforts into Arwinss to eliminate the need to bring in
> > >> hacks and fix stuff which works in Wine for years already, and focus
> > >> on developing only those parts which we obviously can't share (GDI,
> > >> hardware accelerated graphics, whatever else).
> > >>
> > >> I lack time to do this myself, but if anyone volunteers I would be
> > >> glad to help, share my experience and think up of interesting tasks.
> > >> Like, getting Arwinss to work in Windows 2003 instead of its native
> > >> subsystem, which would be a nice test.
> > >>
> > >> Regards,
> > >> Aleksey Bragin
> > >>
> > >> 
>  _______________________________________________
>  Ros-dev mailing list
>  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
>  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>  


-- 
Steven Edwards

"There is one thing stronger than all the armies in the world, and that is
an idea whose time has come." - Victor Hugo

[James Tabor]

Not a flame war....

Missing pieces, like ATI, window positioning, focus, more, more and
the big killer!!! ALT-TAB no where to be seen in wine! So technically
you will wind up developing a full blown subsystem anyway. Keeping up
with current bug reports this would have been obvious to see. Back to
holes in the code which ReactOS eliminated too because it was calling
into X11, these missing pieces is why ReactOS fails some tests and
more evident application testing. Example, run Click to Send AHK test
for notepad on wine. Same results as before with ReactOS. Now with the
new patch, it works on ReactOS. Notepad writes and saves to the
desktop.

It does seem for me at least, to be a wast of time to push something
knowing it will wind up at the very same place one had started. Those
holes are big.

Wine is not enough,
James


On 12/30/13, Aleksey Bragin <aleksey(a)reactos.org> wrote:
>   Thanks, I thought I would end up talking to myself
> :-)
>
>  Well, I totally eliminated X11 out of Wine. It was not that hard really,
>  nearly all good code was in place already, the only thing which I had to
>  develop was a very small "window manager". Literally, which would manage
>  list of windows in the current window station and desktop, and issue
>  redraw messages when certain window gets focus.
>
>  "A little flame never killed nobody"
>
>  Regards,
>  Aleksey
>
>  On 30.12.2013 8:17, James Tabor wrote:
> >   Well.
> >  Moving forwarded is hard for the weak heart. We strive to survive.
> >
> >  Arwiness will fail.
> >
> >  Testing so far proves this. Without X11 wine could not do the things
> >  it can. Seems also, Mac OS does the same thing, filling in those holes
> >  that wine lacks. Hacking X11 is the same, you need to know where to
> >  place the traces. Stay actively focus there is still more to come into
> >  the foreground.
> >
> >  Everyone all around say, "2014 is their year". Let this be ReactOS year!
> >
> >  Happy New Year ReactOS,
> >  James
> >
> >
> >  On 12/29/13, Timo Kreuzer <timo.kreuzer(a)web.de> wrote:
> > > Well, some people prefer working on Arwinss, some people prefer working
> > > on the old win32 subsystem, some people prefer working on a C++ memory
> > > manager ... ;-)
> > >
> > >
> > > Am 28.12.2013 21:52, schrieb Aleksey Bragin:
> > >> Hi,
> > >> this message is a bit provocative, but please don't be offended by it.
> > >> You all did a wonderful work during this year. Thank you!
> > >>
> > >> It's very good to see the work is going on. Just for fun, when I had
> > >> spare 15 minutes, I decided to check, what was done in the win32
> > >> subsystem during this year by the major, respectable and very old time
> > >> ReactOS developer, and whether my proposal with Arwinss still stands
> > >> or not.
> > >>
> > >> Here is what I found: (analyzing ~ 62 commits by jimtabor):
> > >>
> > >> - 25 revisions: Fixes/hacks of our code (ReactOS-specific bug, works
> > >> in Wine, sometimes says in comments "//// ReactOS : Justin Case
> > >> something goes wrong.") (revs 58528, 58562, 58563, 58633, 58773,
> > >> 58999, 59000, 59201, 60054, 60587, 60590, 60592, 60622, 60626, 60659,
> > >> 60676, 60677, 60881, 61078, 61079, 61142, 61250, 61251, 61292, 61458)
> > >>
> > >> - 13 revisions: Syncs with Wine (revs 59157, 59158, 59159, 60763,
> > >> 60784, 60807, 60820, 60858, 60863, 60865, 60867, 61244, 61422)
> > >>
> > >> - 14 revisions: Own code development or rewriting old code, some of
> > >> which might have been derived from ancient versions of Wine.
> > >> (60387, 60389, 60394, 60539, 60599, 60602, 60660, 60682, 60683, 60684,
> > >> 60718, 60883, 60976, 60992)
> > >>
> > >> - 1 revision: attempt to fix a bug found in Wine (revision 60054,
> > >> issue CORE-6024)
> > >>
> > >> You don't need to be a scientist to see that 61% of the changes went
> > >> into fixing ReactOS specific bugs or just bringing in newer Wine code
> > >> to fix old Wine bugs. Remaining 22% of efforts was spent on actually
> > >> developing our own, assumingly better code, and just 1 revision was
> > >> spent on such a glorious thing as fixing Wine's bug.
> > >>
> > >> ReactOS is a just for fun type of project, so I highly appreciate that
> > >> efforts were put into all of the above!
> > >> However, I still think that it would be beneficial if someone would
> > >> put similar efforts into Arwinss to eliminate the need to bring in
> > >> hacks and fix stuff which works in Wine for years already, and focus
> > >> on developing only those parts which we obviously can't share (GDI,
> > >> hardware accelerated graphics, whatever else).
> > >>
> > >> I lack time to do this myself, but if anyone volunteers I would be
> > >> glad to help, share my experience and think up of interesting tasks.
> > >> Like, getting Arwinss to work in Windows 2003 instead of its native
> > >> subsystem, which would be a nice test.
> > >>
> > >> Regards,
> > >> Aleksey Bragin
> > >> 
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  Ros-dev mailing list
>  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
>  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>

[James Tabor]

Things I like about arwinss...

I call SWM winman.c window manager, SWiM, due to it reminds me of
swimming through a list of windows. Studding this code for months,
leaving no stone unturned.

On 12/30/13, Aleksey Bragin <aleksey(a)reactos.org> wrote:
>   Thanks, I thought I would end up talking to myself
> :-)
>
>  Well, I totally eliminated X11 out of Wine. It was not that hard really,
>  nearly all good code was in place already, the only thing which I had to
>  develop was a very small "window manager". Literally, which would manage
>  list of windows in the current window station and desktop, and issue
>  redraw messages when certain window gets focus.
>
>  "A little flame never killed nobody"
>
>  Regards,
>  Aleksey

[BinSys]

I have always insisted that ReactOS should be fully compatible with WINDOWS and work
towards, rather than the introduction of other things. ReactOS This is my concern and
willingness to contribute rather than the sole reason of other open-source items like
WINE.
Even I think that the introduction of WINE is not a right decision. (By Google Translate)


Regards,
BinSys

At 2013-12-31 01:05:07,"James Tabor" <jimtabor.rosdev(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>  Things I like about arwinss...
>
> I call SWM winman.c window manager, SWiM, due to it reminds me of
> swimming through a list of windows. Studding this code for months,
> leaving no stone unturned.
>
> On 12/30/13, Aleksey Bragin <aleksey(a)reactos.org> wrote:
> >   Thanks, I thought I would end up talking to
> > myself :-)
> >
> >  Well, I totally eliminated X11 out of Wine. It was not that hard really,
> >  nearly all good code was in place already, the only thing which I had to
> >  develop was a very small "window manager". Literally, which would manage
> >  list of windows in the current window station and desktop, and issue
> >  redraw messages when certain window gets focus.
> >
> >  "A little flame never killed nobody"
> >
> >  Regards,
> >  Aleksey 
> _______________________________________________
> Ros-dev mailing list
> Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
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[Richard Campbell]

I'll go out on a limb here and agree with James Tabor to some extent.  I've
been saying this for quite a while.  While ARWINSS is technically
interesting, i feel that with limited developer choices, ReactOS should be
focused on developing a usable, stable platform.  Focus on any target!
 Windows XP, Windows 7 (7 is typically a good target as app support won't
be going away for a while, however Windows XP is good as well), etc. and
make it work..and look... great.  Make it usable for the every day user,
even if it's still alpha quality.  You do that, you'll not only get
developer backing, but have the satisfaction of having been a part of one
of the biggest achievements an open source project has ever accomplished.

Note that the statement I have previously mentioned doesn't technically
EXCLUDE ARWINSS...but rather I'm saying to zero in on a specific version of
Wine, fork it, optimize it for ReactOS, plug it in, and focus on the bigger
problems...like the fact that AMD Catalyst drivers won't install/run.

As some of you well know i've been following (and in some instances in the
long past, contributing to) ReactOS.  I just want to see it work.  I want
to see it succeed sometime in my lifetime.  The journey has been
incredible, but i'd like to see it really take off.  The only way it's
going to get there is to draw in user interest.  Do any of you know exactly
how long this project has been under development?  I do...i've been with
it...and following it...for a VERY long time.  Hell, when i first started
following this project, i was on dialup and a 386!  I was a teenage for
crying out loud!  Now i am am 31 years old, I have a wife and two daughters
and this project still continues forward.  Incredible stuff!

If ReactOS were to get to that 'usable' phase, it wouldn't be that hard to
get REAL funding to tackle some of the hard stuff...like staying up to date
with the latest versions of Windows.

Thanks for reading my rant!
Richard Campbell


On Mon, Dec 30, 2013 at 8:21 PM, BinSys <binsys(a)163.com> wrote:

>  
>  I have always insisted that ReactOS should be fully compatible with
>  WINDOWS and work towards, rather than the introduction of other things.
>  ReactOS This is my concern and willingness to contribute rather than the
>  sole reason of other open-source items like WINE.
>  Even I think that the introduction of WINE is not a right decision. (By
>  Google Translate)
>
>  Regards,
>  BinSys
>
>
>  At 2013-12-31 01:05:07,"James Tabor" <jimtabor.rosdev(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> >  Things I like about arwinss...
> >
> > I call SWM winman.c window manager, SWiM, due to it reminds me of
> > swimming through a list of windows. Studding this code for months,
> > leaving no stone unturned.
> >
> > On 12/30/13, Aleksey Bragin <aleksey(a)reactos.org> wrote:
> > >   Thanks, I thought I would end up talking to
> > > myself :-)
> > >
> > >  Well, I totally eliminated X11 out of Wine. It was not that hard really,
> > >  nearly all good code was in place already, the only thing which I had to
> > >  develop was a very small "window manager". Literally, which would manage
> > >  list of windows in the current window station and desktop, and issue
> > >  redraw messages when certain window gets focus.
> > >
> > >  "A little flame never killed nobody"
> > >
> > >  Regards,
> > >  Aleksey 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Ros-dev mailing list
> > Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
> > http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev 
>
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>

[Aleksey Bragin]

Hey Richard!
Nice to see your reply here, and I didn't know that we are nearly same 
age (I'm turning 31 in approximately twenty four days).

What you are saying actually makes sense. And that's exactly why I did 
it this way. Present win32 subsystem is a mess consisting from own good 
code (mainly in win32k - GRE, and some other parts written by 
Timo/James/Giannis/etc), our own bad code (historical parts derived from 
ancient Wine, which was/is full of bugs), and just old Wine code which 
gets adapted into user32/gdi32 pretending to be "proper".

We don't have manpower to even maintain that (as updating that old Wine 
code involves quite a bit of work, to re-port new Wine code, to backport 
fixes, etc), and some parts are just unmaintainable (like ported ancient 
Wine code which just needs to be rewritten). Not to say about doing a 
proper, full blown win32 subsystem (which is even hard to define because 
win32ss in Windows is far from being as beautiful as NT kernel is).

Hence I decided to do exactly what you say. I took a Wine version which 
works, ported it preserving as much arch as possible (thankfully Wine 
code matured to be good enough for that) and created a new subsystem 
which is VERY simple to maintain (updating to new Wine versions is a 
usually few minutes of work and few hours of testing :-) ), and where we 
utilize rather big manpower behind Wine. And where we don't have hassle 
with Linux being the underlying layer, we just do it all natively, like 
Wine's dream.

Understanding all this, and actually seeing how good Arwinss performs 
already, it would be great to get more people to work on it, as the 
result of such work is substantially more noticeable than just a few 
fixes here and there in the present win32ss.

If Reactos continues to be in such unusable state, then it's going to 
remain in the history as "an os which never took off due to its 
complexity". I don't want that to happen. Too many people invested their 
efforts in it to fail so easily.

So let's think, it's just about time.

Regards,
Aleksey Bragin


On 31.12.2013 11:03, Richard Campbell wrote:
>   I'll go out on a limb here and agree with James
> Tabor to some extent. 
>   I've been saying this for quite a while.  While ARWINSS is 
>  technically interesting, i feel that with limited developer choices, 
>  ReactOS should be focused on developing a usable, stable platform. 
>   Focus on any target!  Windows XP, Windows 7 (7 is typically a good 
>  target as app support won't be going away for a while, however Windows 
>  XP is good as well), etc. and make it work..and look... great.  Make 
>  it usable for the every day user, even if it's still alpha quality. 
>   You do that, you'll not only get developer backing, but have the 
>  satisfaction of having been a part of one of the biggest achievements 
>  an open source project has ever accomplished.
>
>  Note that the statement I have previously mentioned doesn't 
>  technically EXCLUDE ARWINSS...but rather I'm saying to zero in on a 
>  specific version of Wine, fork it, optimize it for ReactOS, plug it 
>  in, and focus on the bigger problems...like the fact that AMD Catalyst 
>  drivers won't install/run.
>
>  As some of you well know i've been following (and in some instances in 
>  the long past, contributing to) ReactOS.  I just want to see it work. 
>   I want to see it succeed sometime in my lifetime.  The journey has 
>  been incredible, but i'd like to see it really take off.  The only way 
>  it's going to get there is to draw in user interest.  Do any of you 
>  know exactly how long this project has been under development?  I 
>  do...i've been with it...and following it...for a VERY long time. 
>   Hell, when i first started following this project, i was on dialup 
>  and a 386!  I was a teenage for crying out loud!  Now i am am 31 years 
>  old, I have a wife and two daughters and this project still continues 
>  forward.  Incredible stuff!
>
>  If ReactOS were to get to that 'usable' phase, it wouldn't be that 
>  hard to get REAL funding to tackle some of the hard stuff...like 
>  staying up to date with the latest versions of Windows.
>
>  Thanks for reading my rant!
>  Richard Campbell
>
>
>  On Mon, Dec 30, 2013 at 8:21 PM, BinSys <binsys(a)163.com 
>  <mailto:[e-mail]>> wrote:
>
>
>      I have always insisted that ReactOS should be fully compatible
>      with WINDOWS and work towards, rather than the introduction of
>      other things. ReactOS This is my concern and willingness to
>      contribute rather than the sole reason of other open-source items
>      like WINE.
>      Even I think that the introduction of WINE is not a right
>      decision. (By Google Translate)
>
>      Regards,
>      BinSys
>
>      At2013-12-31 01  <tel:2013-12-31%C2%A001>:05:07,"James Tabor"
> &lt;jimtabor.rosdev(a)gmail.com  <mailto:[e-mail]>> wrote:
> >  Things I like about arwinss...
> >
> > I call SWM winman.c window manager, SWiM, due to it reminds me of
> > swimming through a list of windows. Studding this code for months,
> > leaving no stone unturned.
> >
> > On 12/30/13, Aleksey Bragin &lt;aleksey(a)reactos.org 
> > <mailto:[e-mail]>> wrote:
> > > Thanks, I thought I would end up talking to myself :-)
> > >
> > > Well, I totally eliminated X11 out of Wine. It was not that hard really,
> > > nearly all good code was in place already, the only thing which I had to
> > > develop was a very small "window manager". Literally, which would manage
> > > list of windows in the current window station and desktop, and issue
> > > redraw messages when certain window gets focus.
> > >
> > > "A little flame never killed nobody"
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > > Aleksey 
>