Re: [ros-dev] New ideas added to GSoC Ideas list

[Ștefan Fulea]

Marți, 14 martie 2017 12:00:02 +0000, Mark Jansen
[e-mail] a scris:
> How about a better way to translate ros?
> For example integrating .po files with our rc files (possibly needs a
> preprocess step or something tho),
> Or creating a resource editor that allows multiple files to be edited
> at once?

Please don't push for .po resources, for these are not better. As for
improving the process, I doubt it'd repay the investment. After the
initial translation effort, the further maintenance requires very
little.

[Rafał Harabień]

In my opinion it's very sensible proposal. I remember changing  dialog
layout in resources was a big pain because of amount of repeated work
for all languages (and error prone). It was demotivating.
On the other hand there are free translation platforms making project
translation more organized and easier than editing raw resources. WINE
is using PO for years and ReactOS IMO should do it as well.
Just my two cents...

W dniu 14.03.2017 o 14:31, Ștefan Fulea pisze:
> Marți, 14 martie 2017 12:00:02 +0000, Mark Jansen
> [e-mail] a scris:
> > How about a better way to translate ros?
> > For example integrating .po files with our rc files (possibly needs a
> > preprocess step or something tho),
> > Or creating a resource editor that allows multiple files to be edited
> > at once?
>
> Please don't push for .po resources, for these are not better. As for
> improving the process, I doubt it'd repay the investment. After the
> initial translation effort, the further maintenance requires very
> little.
>
> Ros-dev mailing list
> [e-mail]
> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev

[David Quintana (gigaherz)]

Gettext-style translations are really really bad, because they use the
original text (usually in english) as a translation key, which means they
simply can not handle situations where the same english text needs
different translations depending on where the text is used. And yes, I have
come across that issue once upon a time.

You are right that editing a dialog is annoying, but due to the way win32
resource dialogs work, it's unavoidable. Even if we could have a serpate
file for reaching the translations, there's often the situation where
certain languages need different layouts, or at least different control
sizes, to accomodate for longer / taller text, or RTL. So even if we
switched to a different system, that annoyance wouldn't go away.

I do agree that it would be nice to have some nicer tool for translators,
but IMO, .po files are not it.

On 14 March 2017 at 23:14, Rafał Harabień [e-mail] wrote:
> In my opinion it's very sensible proposal. I remember changing  dialog
> layout in resources was a big pain because of amount of repeated work
> for all languages (and error prone). It was demotivating.
> On the other hand there are free translation platforms making project
> translation more organized and easier than editing raw resources. WINE
> is using PO for years and ReactOS IMO should do it as well.
> Just my two cents...
>
> W dniu 14.03.2017 o 14:31, Ștefan Fulea pisze:
> > Marți, 14 martie 2017 12:00:02 +0000, Mark Jansen
> > [e-mail] a scris:
> > > How about a better way to translate ros?
> > > For example integrating .po files with our rc files (possibly needs a
> > > preprocess step or something tho),
> > > Or creating a resource editor that allows multiple files to be edited
> > > at once?
> >
> > Please don't push for .po resources, for these are not better. As for
> > improving the process, I doubt it'd repay the investment. After the
> > initial translation effort, the further maintenance requires very
> > little.
> >
> > Ros-dev mailing list
> > [e-mail]
> > http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>
> Ros-dev mailing list
> [e-mail]
> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev

[Rafał Harabień]

PO files supports "context" markers to make it possible to differentiate
usage of the same string in different contexts.
About different layout - yes, we would have only one layout but IMO for
project like this with human resource problems its more important to
make development less boring and easier to maintain than to customize
dialogs for every locale without significant profit. If project treats
pixel-perfect layout compatibility with windows as requirement it would
be a problem but I don't think ROS needs it.  We already import multiple
dialogs from Wine...

W dniu 14.03.2017 o 23:29, David Quintana (gigaherz) pisze:
> Gettext-style translations are really really bad, because they use the
> original text (usually in english) as a translation key, which means
> they simply can not handle situations where the same english text
> needs different translations depending on where the text is used. And
> yes, I have come across that issue once upon a time.
>
> You are right that editing a dialog is annoying, but due to the way
> win32 resource dialogs work, it's unavoidable. Even if we could have a
> serpate file for reaching the translations, there's often the
> situation where certain languages need different layouts, or at least
> different control sizes, to accomodate for longer / taller text, or
> RTL. So even if we switched to a different system, that annoyance
> wouldn't go away.
>
> I do agree that it would be nice to have some nicer tool for
> translators, but IMO, .po files are not it.
>
> On 14 March 2017 at 23:14, Rafał Harabień <[e-mail]
> mailto:[e-mail]> wrote:
> In my opinion it's very sensible proposal. I remember changing  dialog
> layout in resources was a big pain because of amount of repeated work
> for all languages (and error prone). It was demotivating.
> On the other hand there are free translation platforms making project
> translation more organized and easier than editing raw resources. WINE
> is using PO for years and ReactOS IMO should do it as well.
> Just my two cents...
>
> W dniu 14.03.2017 o 14:31, Ștefan Fulea pisze:
> > Marți, 14 martie 2017 12:00:02 +0000, Mark Jansen
> > <[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>> a
> scris:
> >> How about a better way to translate ros?
> >> For example integrating .po files with our rc files (possibly
> needs a
> >> preprocess step or something tho),
> >> Or creating a resource editor that allows multiple files to be
> edited
> >> at once?
> >>
> > Please don't push for .po resources, for these are not better.
> As for
> > improving the process, I doubt it'd repay the investment. After the
> > initial translation effort, the further maintenance requires very
> > little.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Ros-dev mailing list
> > [e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>
> > http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> <http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ros-dev mailing list
> [e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>
> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> <http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev>
>
>
>
>
> Ros-dev mailing list
> [e-mail]
> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev

[Hermès BÉLUSCA-MAÏTO]

I’m sorry but I should remind you that we *already* have *MANY* apps & dlls (not from Wine) where dialog layouts are already different for different locales, examples being for French and German languages (amongst others) where having adapted sizes for buttons, static text controls, … are mandatory, because these languages use frequently long words, etc… . So it’s clear we will never go back to a single layout that is shared between different locales.

I should reassure you however, that we don’t care at all about “pixel-perfect layout compatibility with windows”.

A suggestion then, would be to have a resource editor, that can display nicely, for a given dialog ID, all the (possibly only the selected ones) different dialogs of the different languages, in e.g. mosaic positioning, which should help the translator to easily see whether he needs to adapt a layout for a given language, or whether he can just copy/paste an existing layout.

Hermès.

De : Ros-dev [mailto:[e-mail]] De la part de Rafal Harabien
Envoyé : mardi 14 mars 2017 23:44
À : ReactOS Development List
Objet : Re: [ros-dev] New ideas added to GSoC Ideas list

PO files supports "context" markers to make it possible to differentiate usage of the same string in different contexts.
About different layout - yes, we would have only one layout but IMO for project like this with human resource problems its more important to make development less boring and easier to maintain than to customize dialogs for every locale without significant profit. If project treats pixel-perfect layout compatibility with windows as requirement it would be a problem but I don't think ROS needs it.  We already import multiple dialogs from Wine...

W dniu 14.03.2017 o 23:29, David Quintana (gigaherz) pisze:

Gettext-style translations are really really bad, because they use the original text (usually in english) as a translation key, which means they simply can not handle situations where the same english text needs different translations depending on where the text is used. And yes, I have come across that issue once upon a time.

You are right that editing a dialog is annoying, but due to the way win32 resource dialogs work, it's unavoidable. Even if we could have a serpate file for reaching the translations, there's often the situation where certain languages need different layouts, or at least different control sizes, to accomodate for longer / taller text, or RTL. So even if we switched to a different system, that annoyance wouldn't go away.

I do agree that it would be nice to have some nicer tool for translators, but IMO, .po files are not it.

On 14 March 2017 at 23:14, Rafał Harabień [e-mail] wrote:

In my opinion it's very sensible proposal. I remember changing  dialog
layout in resources was a big pain because of amount of repeated work
for all languages (and error prone). It was demotivating.
On the other hand there are free translation platforms making project
translation more organized and easier than editing raw resources. WINE
is using PO for years and ReactOS IMO should do it as well.
Just my two cents...

W dniu 14.03.2017 o 14:31, Ștefan Fulea pisze:
> Marți, 14 martie 2017 12:00:02 +0000, Mark Jansen
> <[e-mail] mailto:[e-mail] > a scris:
> > How about a better way to translate ros?
> > For example integrating .po files with our rc files (possibly needs a
> > preprocess step or something tho),
> > Or creating a resource editor that allows multiple files to be edited
> > at once?
>
> Please don't push for .po resources, for these are not better. As for
> improving the process, I doubt it'd repay the investment. After the
> initial translation effort, the further maintenance requires very
> little.
>
> Ros-dev mailing list
> [e-mail]
> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev

_______________________________________________
Ros-dev mailing list
[e-mail]
http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev

_______________________________________________
Ros-dev mailing list
[e-mail]
http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev

[Mark Jansen]

Well,

I was thinking a sort of 'hybrid' approach:
We have a generic resource 'template' file (english?), that is used
for strings / dialogs.
Then each translation will have it's .po file.
Translations that need a different dialog layout create a new 'template' file.

To build this, we will need an extra pre-process step (like we do for
utf16 .inf files), to combine the resource template and .po file into
a real resource file.

This saves developers from having to edit 30 resource files when
altering one dialog.

On Wed, Mar 15, 2017 at 1:52 AM, Hermès BÉLUSCA-MAÏTO
[e-mail] wrote:
> I’m sorry but I should remind you that we *already* have *MANY* apps & dlls
> (not from Wine) where dialog layouts are already different for different
> locales, examples being for French and German languages (amongst others)
> where having adapted sizes for buttons, static text controls, … are
> mandatory, because these languages use frequently long words, etc… . So it’s
> clear we will never go back to a single layout that is shared between
> different locales.
>
> I should reassure you however, that we don’t care at all about
> “pixel-perfect layout compatibility with windows”.
>
> A suggestion then, would be to have a resource editor, that can display
> nicely, for a given dialog ID, all the (possibly only the selected ones)
> different dialogs of the different languages, in e.g. mosaic positioning,
> which should help the translator to easily see whether he needs to adapt a
> layout for a given language, or whether he can just copy/paste an existing
> layout.
>
> Hermès.
>
> De : Ros-dev [mailto:[e-mail]] De la part de Rafal
> Harabien
> Envoyé : mardi 14 mars 2017 23:44
> À : ReactOS Development List
> Objet : Re: [ros-dev] New ideas added to GSoC Ideas list
>
> PO files supports "context" markers to make it possible to differentiate
> usage of the same string in different contexts.
> About different layout - yes, we would have only one layout but IMO for
> project like this with human resource problems its more important to make
> development less boring and easier to maintain than to customize dialogs for
> every locale without significant profit. If project treats pixel-perfect
> layout compatibility with windows as requirement it would be a problem but I
> don't think ROS needs it.  We already import multiple dialogs from Wine...
>
> W dniu 14.03.2017 o 23:29, David Quintana (gigaherz) pisze:
>
> Gettext-style translations are really really bad, because they use the
> original text (usually in english) as a translation key, which means they
> simply can not handle situations where the same english text needs different
> translations depending on where the text is used. And yes, I have come
> across that issue once upon a time.
>
> You are right that editing a dialog is annoying, but due to the way win32
> resource dialogs work, it's unavoidable. Even if we could have a serpate
> file for reaching the translations, there's often the situation where
> certain languages need different layouts, or at least different control
> sizes, to accomodate for longer / taller text, or RTL. So even if we
> switched to a different system, that annoyance wouldn't go away.
>
> I do agree that it would be nice to have some nicer tool for translators,
> but IMO, .po files are not it.
>
> On 14 March 2017 at 23:14, Rafał Harabień [e-mail] wrote:
>
> In my opinion it's very sensible proposal. I remember changing  dialog
> layout in resources was a big pain because of amount of repeated work
> for all languages (and error prone). It was demotivating.
> On the other hand there are free translation platforms making project
> translation more organized and easier than editing raw resources. WINE
> is using PO for years and ReactOS IMO should do it as well.
> Just my two cents...
>
> W dniu 14.03.2017 o 14:31, Ștefan Fulea pisze:
> > Marți, 14 martie 2017 12:00:02 +0000, Mark Jansen
> > [e-mail] a scris:
> > > How about a better way to translate ros?
> > > For example integrating .po files with our rc files (possibly needs a
> > > preprocess step or something tho),
> > > Or creating a resource editor that allows multiple files to be edited
> > > at once?
> >
> > Please don't push for .po resources, for these are not better. As for
> > improving the process, I doubt it'd repay the investment. After the
> > initial translation effort, the further maintenance requires very
> > little.
> >
> > Ros-dev mailing list
> > [e-mail]
> > http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>
> Ros-dev mailing list
> [e-mail]
> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>
> Ros-dev mailing list
>
> [e-mail]
>
> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>
> Ros-dev mailing list
> [e-mail]
> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev

[Rafał Harabień]

Do we really need custom layouts for languages? Wine is handling it
somehow by making labels/buttons big enough. Cant we do it the same way
if we don't need pixel perfect positioning?

W dniu 15.03.2017 o 21:21, Mark Jansen pisze:
> Well,
>
> I was thinking a sort of 'hybrid' approach:
> We have a generic resource 'template' file (english?), that is used
> for strings / dialogs.
> Then each translation will have it's .po file.
> Translations that need a different dialog layout create a new 'template' file.
>
> To build this, we will need an extra pre-process step (like we do for
> utf16 .inf files), to combine the resource template and .po file into
> a real resource file.
>
> This saves developers from having to edit 30 resource files when
> altering one dialog.
>
> On Wed, Mar 15, 2017 at 1:52 AM, Hermès BÉLUSCA-MAÏTO
> [e-mail] wrote:
> > I’m sorry but I should remind you that we *already* have *MANY* apps & dlls
> > (not from Wine) where dialog layouts are already different for different
> > locales, examples being for French and German languages (amongst others)
> > where having adapted sizes for buttons, static text controls, … are
> > mandatory, because these languages use frequently long words, etc… . So it’s
> > clear we will never go back to a single layout that is shared between
> > different locales.
> >
> > I should reassure you however, that we don’t care at all about
> > “pixel-perfect layout compatibility with windows”.
> >
> > A suggestion then, would be to have a resource editor, that can display
> > nicely, for a given dialog ID, all the (possibly only the selected ones)
> > different dialogs of the different languages, in e.g. mosaic positioning,
> > which should help the translator to easily see whether he needs to adapt a
> > layout for a given language, or whether he can just copy/paste an existing
> > layout.
> >
> > Hermès.
> >
> > De : Ros-dev [mailto:[e-mail]] De la part de Rafal
> > Harabien
> > Envoyé : mardi 14 mars 2017 23:44
> > À : ReactOS Development List
> > Objet : Re: [ros-dev] New ideas added to GSoC Ideas list
> >
> > PO files supports "context" markers to make it possible to differentiate
> > usage of the same string in different contexts.
> > About different layout - yes, we would have only one layout but IMO for
> > project like this with human resource problems its more important to make
> > development less boring and easier to maintain than to customize dialogs for
> > every locale without significant profit. If project treats pixel-perfect
> > layout compatibility with windows as requirement it would be a problem but I
> > don't think ROS needs it.  We already import multiple dialogs from Wine...
> >
> > W dniu 14.03.2017 o 23:29, David Quintana (gigaherz) pisze:
> >
> > Gettext-style translations are really really bad, because they use the
> > original text (usually in english) as a translation key, which means they
> > simply can not handle situations where the same english text needs different
> > translations depending on where the text is used. And yes, I have come
> > across that issue once upon a time.
> >
> > You are right that editing a dialog is annoying, but due to the way win32
> > resource dialogs work, it's unavoidable. Even if we could have a serpate
> > file for reaching the translations, there's often the situation where
> > certain languages need different layouts, or at least different control
> > sizes, to accomodate for longer / taller text, or RTL. So even if we
> > switched to a different system, that annoyance wouldn't go away.
> >
> > I do agree that it would be nice to have some nicer tool for translators,
> > but IMO, .po files are not it.
> >
> > On 14 March 2017 at 23:14, Rafał Harabień [e-mail] wrote:
> >
> > In my opinion it's very sensible proposal. I remember changing  dialog
> > layout in resources was a big pain because of amount of repeated work
> > for all languages (and error prone). It was demotivating.
> > On the other hand there are free translation platforms making project
> > translation more organized and easier than editing raw resources. WINE
> > is using PO for years and ReactOS IMO should do it as well.
> > Just my two cents...
> >
> > W dniu 14.03.2017 o 14:31, Ștefan Fulea pisze:
> > > Marți, 14 martie 2017 12:00:02 +0000, Mark Jansen
> > > [e-mail] a scris:
> > > > How about a better way to translate ros?
> > > > For example integrating .po files with our rc files (possibly needs a
> > > > preprocess step or something tho),
> > > > Or creating a resource editor that allows multiple files to be edited
> > > > at once?
> > >
> > > Please don't push for .po resources, for these are not better. As for
> > > improving the process, I doubt it'd repay the investment. After the
> > > initial translation effort, the further maintenance requires very
> > > little.
> > >
> > > Ros-dev mailing list
> > > [e-mail]
> > > http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> >
> > Ros-dev mailing list
> > [e-mail]
> > http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> >
> > Ros-dev mailing list
> >
> > [e-mail]
> >
> > http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> >
> > Ros-dev mailing list
> > [e-mail]
> > http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>
> Ros-dev mailing list
> [e-mail]
> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev