Grievous and unwarranted mistreatment by a senior operator of the IRC channel

[Steven Maddox (Cyorxamp)]

Dear ReactOS Developers,

I apologize for taking these extra ordinary steps in this matter but I 
could not locate another way of bringing this issue to attention on your 
site.

I was in the IRC channel on the 11th July '06 from about 3am to 5am 
GMT... I was posing some very interesting and fundamental questions 
about how the project began, it's direction.  I was pleased that after a 
few minutes most of the users had agreed that ReactOS is intending to be 
much more than just NT compatible but in a sense 'Windows + Better'.

After this there was many hours of discussion of how to make it more 
than just a windows clone, many of such involving the idea of ReactOS 
being similar to Linux in some senses and how to get a Linux feel while 
maintaining windows compatibility.

Near the end of the log (I hope these are saved, I have no copies 
myself) an 'Alex_Ionescu' joined in on the conversation.  He had many 
interesting views that greatly heightened the debate to whether ReactOS 
should intend to be more than windows now, or at a later date.  I was 
for the view that in order to gain a user base quicker that it must at 
least intent to be more than a clone and was trying to illustrate why. 
I first tried to illustrate this and got shot down due to my poor 
phrasing of what I meant.

I tried to rephrase my point, and I began with a sentence talking about 
firefox as a metaphor of another great piece of floss software.  I was 
interrupted by Alex_Ionescu (whom is an op in that channel) who told me 
i 'must' state my reason using a single statement only and began quoting 
regulations of the English language and structuring a proper argument... 
so many regulations in fact i feel even if I did comply it would be 
difficult to fit it in one statement.

I decided to wait until Alex_Ionescu had given up on such a silly and 
clear attempt at limiting my free speech in this matter.  However he 
persisted to want to know what my point was on this matter, when trying 
again... he shut me down.  Eventually he set the entire channel to 
moderated status only so only those he selected could discuss the 
matter.  Apparently this was until I could phrase my argument using just 
one statement.

I waited until this was lifted and it was not, eventually I came back... 
spoke Spanish and under another nick!  Granted this was to yet again 
give my point across... instead of this they knew who I was and quickly 
identified me.  A silly tactic I know, but having done this I was 
quickly misquoted in the channel from my conversation with Alex_Ionescu 
about things I was trying to explain to him as well as very childish 
remarks as tho I had said "I love cock".  I have high hopes for this 
project and wish it every success, I had a very enlightened experience 
up until meeting this person with the arguments put and listened and 
responded to them well.  Alex_Ionescu on the other hand obviously has no 
understanding of what it means to express oneself freely, and it would 
seem has a childish nature too.

I ask that the decision to give this person power of the level of 
communication about the project in the channel be reviewed as quickly as 
possible in light of these or other past events.

Thank you,

-- 
Steven Maddox
(Cyorxamp)

Cyorxamp
http://www.cyorxamp.info

[Aleksey Bragin]

Hello Mr. Maddox,
thanks for your good opinion about ReactOS project!

Unfortunately I am not able to persist in IRC 24h a day, and I am not  
able to read up the logs, and even more I would spend my time on  
judging who is right in some irc-discussion.

This is IRC. It's an informal way of communication. People have  
personalities there, and everyone has different personality. This  
night (day for you probably) you learned the Alex's personality.  
Nothing really bad happened, I'm sure.

However, when using mailing lists, and making this kind of statements:
>   I ask that the decision to give this person power of
> the level of
>  communication about the project in the channel be reviewed as  
>  quickly as
>  possible in light of these or other past events. 
is a little bit not very smart. I will outline the reasons for you:
1. I don't alter mailing list postings. So if someone said "Wine devs  
should go .... themselves", it's really bad, and the one who said it  
already understood that saying so in mailing lists is not an option.
2. I don't alter or control IRC. People say what they think there -  
it is The Freedom (and it's called Freenode too). People can say  
"Fireball sux" there, and I won't be offended, because it's either a  
joke or a sign that someone wished I do something differently.
3. Furthermore, I will hardly limit Alex's or any other developer's  
power level due to this incident, and you know this. No offence, but  
I trust my whole team more, and thus I'm subjective here.

And finally, isn't coming back to irc under different nickname,  
trying to make others believe that you are a different user, etc -  
isn't it a childish behaviour too? :-)


So, Steven, please get used to IRC - it's the most free way to  
express yourself, but be aware that everyone else is free to express  
himself too. And don't take everything so close to your heart.


With the best regards,
Aleksey Bragin.
ReactOS Project Coordinator.


On Jul 11, 2006, at 8:48 AM, Steven Maddox (Cyorxamp) wrote:

> Dear ReactOS Developers,
>
> I apologize for taking these extra ordinary steps in this matter but I
> could not locate another way of bringing this issue to attention on  
> your
> site.
>
> I was in the IRC channel on the 11th July '06 from about 3am to 5am
> GMT... I was posing some very interesting and fundamental questions
> about how the project began, it's direction.  I was pleased that  
> after a
> few minutes most of the users had agreed that ReactOS is intending  
> to be
> much more than just NT compatible but in a sense 'Windows + Better'.
>
> After this there was many hours of discussion of how to make it more
> than just a windows clone, many of such involving the idea of ReactOS
> being similar to Linux in some senses and how to get a Linux feel  
> while
> maintaining windows compatibility.
>
> Near the end of the log (I hope these are saved, I have no copies
> myself) an 'Alex_Ionescu' joined in on the conversation.  He had many
> interesting views that greatly heightened the debate to whether  
> ReactOS
> should intend to be more than windows now, or at a later date.  I was
> for the view that in order to gain a user base quicker that it must at
> least intent to be more than a clone and was trying to illustrate why.
> I first tried to illustrate this and got shot down due to my poor
> phrasing of what I meant.
>
> I tried to rephrase my point, and I began with a sentence talking  
> about
> firefox as a metaphor of another great piece of floss software.  I was
> interrupted by Alex_Ionescu (whom is an op in that channel) who  
> told me
> i 'must' state my reason using a single statement only and began  
> quoting
> regulations of the English language and structuring a proper  
> argument...
> so many regulations in fact i feel even if I did comply it would be
> difficult to fit it in one statement.
>
> I decided to wait until Alex_Ionescu had given up on such a silly and
> clear attempt at limiting my free speech in this matter.  However he
> persisted to want to know what my point was on this matter, when  
> trying
> again... he shut me down.  Eventually he set the entire channel to
> moderated status only so only those he selected could discuss the
> matter.  Apparently this was until I could phrase my argument using  
> just
> one statement.
>
> I waited until this was lifted and it was not, eventually I came  
> back...
> spoke Spanish and under another nick!  Granted this was to yet again
> give my point across... instead of this they knew who I was and  
> quickly
> identified me.  A silly tactic I know, but having done this I was
> quickly misquoted in the channel from my conversation with  
> Alex_Ionescu
> about things I was trying to explain to him as well as very childish
> remarks as tho I had said "I love cock".  I have high hopes for this
> project and wish it every success, I had a very enlightened experience
> up until meeting this person with the arguments put and listened and
> responded to them well.  Alex_Ionescu on the other hand obviously  
> has no
> understanding of what it means to express oneself freely, and it would
> seem has a childish nature too.
>
>   I ask that the decision to give this person power of
> the level of
>  communication about the project in the channel be reviewed as  
>  quickly as
>  possible in light of these or other past events. 
>
> Thank you,
>
> -- 
> Steven Maddox
> (Cyorxamp)

[Steven Maddox (Cyorxamp)]

Thank you everyone for 'skimming' over my email...



Alex Bragin: "you learned the Alex's personality.   Nothing really bad 
happened, I'm sure."

	I disagree, if you had read my email you would have found that 
something did happen and I was no amused by it.


Alex Bragin: "it's the most free way to express yourself, but be aware 
that everyone else is free to express himself too"

	And that means some have to freedom to limit the freedom for others to 
speak whenever it suits them for no valid reason?


Alex Bragin: "and thus I'm subjective here"

	No kidding


For the record, I understand the diversities of IRC... I have even on 
occasion ran a channel or two myself with a great deal of people to deal 
with.  Stopping someone from speaking because they are insulting or not 
following the rules is one thing... stopping them because you don't like 
'how they structure an argument' is just pretentious.


WaxDragon: "Don't let him shake ya, he has his days like all of us"

	Sure, I get that.. however this was not a problem with him 'not 
agreeing'... this was an issue with his silly attempts to limit how I 
can put my point across.  If one day is not his day, I'll be more than 
willing to talk to him about all this.


Alex Ionescu: " some of the developers got angry on why I didn't ban him 
sooner"

	What?  Another point of view, another angle on things isn't respected 
nor tolerated in that channel?  I was not at any point that channel 
someone who could be considered a 'troll' by hammering a sentence over 
and over.  Every point I made had some evidence or theory that was 
different.  I swear you think your god Alex.


Daniel Reimer: "dont rephrase your stuff all again"

	I am not rephrasing simply to say the exact same in another way.  I was 
rephrasing to include more information and examples to put the issue in 
perspective.  As to you other 'tips' on IRC, they do not apply.


Steven Maddox
(Cyorxamp)

Cyorxamp
http://www.cyorxamp.info

[Nathan Davidson]

Okay, seriously I don't want to sound rude, but here is what I think. Please remember
this is just an opinion.

Coming into an IRC channel and telling us that we need to completely rethink our project
is the height of stupidity and thoughtlessness. And, on top of that, you suggest these
changes but seem to have no concept of what would actually be possible and what would not
be possible for an Operating System to perform. And, in addition, you didn't offer to
help at all, you simply started telling us that our project would be crap if we didn't
do what you wanted us to.

I don't mind good, constructive suggestions, but a 2-3 hour argument which serves no
purpose whatsoever just seems to be a little bit too much. Also, I would hardly call what
you received "mistreatment". In my opinion, you should have been kicked/banned
from the channel long before you were. Not for making a suggestion, but for trolling the
channel and flaming those who didn't agree.

I suggest you read this:
http://www.onlinenetiquette.com/netiquette_101.html

Again, this is just my opinion, but I believe that most of the people that were on the
channel at that time would agree.

 		
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs.Try it free.

[Daniel Reimer]

"I don't mind good, constructive suggestions, but a 2-3 hour argument 
which serves no purpose whatsoever just seems to be a little bit too 
much. Also, I would hardly call what you received "mistreatment". In my 
opinion, you should have been kicked/banned from the channel long before 
you were. Not for making a suggestion, but for trolling the channel and 
flaming those who didn't agree."

lol, true. And when he contines to flame in ML.... Can someone be banned 
from here, too?

[Steven Maddox (Cyorxamp)]

Nathan.......

>   Coming into an IRC channel and telling us that we need
> to completely 
>  rethink our project is the height of stupidity and thoughtlessness.  
If you had read the log properly you will see that I suggest any 'cross 
kernel' idea to be an after thought that could perhaps be tried separately


>   on top of that, you suggest these changes but seem to
> have no concept of 
>  what would actually be possible and what would not be possible for an 
>  Operating System to perform. 
Your opinion, not mine

>   And, in addition, you didn't offer to help 
>  at all 
I did, I need to brush up on a few things, but I would be more than willing

>   you simply started telling us that our project would
> be crap if 
>  we didn't do what you wanted us to. 
Show me where I said that

>   I don't mind good, constructive suggestions, but a
> 2-3 hour argument 
>  which serves no purpose whatsoever just seems to be a little bit too 
>  much.  
Not an argument, a debate... one I found quite constructive

>   Also, I would hardly call what you received
> "mistreatment". In my 
>  opinion, you should have been kicked/banned from the channel long before 
>  you were. Not for making a suggestion, but for trolling the channel and 
>  flaming those who didn't agree. 
I was not trolling, I was discussing... go learn the difference

>   I suggest you read this:
>  http://www.onlinenetiquette.com/netiquette_101.html 
Not thank you, your advise seems quite biased


The same points apply to you Daniel Reimer



Steven Maddox
(Cyorxamp)

Cyorxamp
http://www.cyorxamp.info

[Coviti]

>   I was not trolling, I was discussing... go learn the
>  difference 
Okay, here's the difference. Tell Wikipedia they're
wrong.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flaming

Read the entire first section of each page, and you'll
soon understand how you were both trolling and
flaming.

This discussion does not even belong here, as it is
intended to cause anger and disruption (thus
trolling). Alex Ionescu will not be relieved of his
position in #reactos, and you should drop even the
faintest notion that it will happen. Since I don't
want to "feed the troll", and because this discussion
is terribly out of place, I will withdraw from this
discussion. Feel free to post to your heart's content,
but do not expect any action to be taken.

P.S. If you don't like ReactOS, you have 3 options:

1) Customize it to your needs
2) Deal with it
3) Leave

It's your choice, do whichever one you want. I would
hate for it to have to come to option 3, but it is
entirely up to you and your behavior.


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com

[Maarten Bosma]

Please keep this discussion off ros-*dev*.


Maarten Bosma


Coviti wrote:
> >  I was not
> > trolling, I was discussing... go learn the
> > difference 
>  
>  
>  Okay, here's the difference. Tell Wikipedia they're
>  wrong.
>  
>  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll
>  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flaming
>  
>  Read the entire first section of each page, and you'll
>  soon understand how you were both trolling and
>  flaming.
>  
>  This discussion does not even belong here, as it is
>  intended to cause anger and disruption (thus
>  trolling). Alex Ionescu will not be relieved of his
>  position in #reactos, and you should drop even the
>  faintest notion that it will happen. Since I don't
>  want to "feed the troll", and because this discussion
>  is terribly out of place, I will withdraw from this
>  discussion. Feel free to post to your heart's content,
>  but do not expect any action to be taken.
>  
>  P.S. If you don't like ReactOS, you have 3 options:
>  
>  1) Customize it to your needs
>  2) Deal with it
>  3) Leave
>  
>  It's your choice, do whichever one you want. I would
>  hate for it to have to come to option 3, but it is
>  entirely up to you and your behavior.
>  
>  
>  __________________________________________________
>  Do You Yahoo!?
>  Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
>  http://mail.yahoo.com 
>  _______________________________________________
>  Ros-dev mailing list
>  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
>  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev

[Daniel Reimer]

"I am not rephrasing simply to say the exact same in another way.  I was
rephrasing to include more information and examples to put the issue in
perspective.  As to you other 'tips' on IRC, they do not apply."

And as I said. "This is generalized, I watched your talk in IRC and 
those stuff above does not fit to your messages generally."

My good friend, you are strange... (Pursuit illusion???) I tried to give 
you some advice and get a very kind answer, thx. Thats the reasons they 
started making fun of you in IRC. Sry, but this is true.

[Aleksey Bragin]

On Jul 11, 2006, at 7:49 PM, Steven Maddox (Cyorxamp) wrote:

>   Thank you everyone for 'skimming' over my
> email...
>
>
>
>  Alex Bragin: "you learned the Alex's personality.   Nothing really bad
>  happened, I'm sure."
>
>  	I disagree, if you had read my email you would have found that
>  something did happen and I was no amused by it. 
I'm the highest instance and the highest force in this project. So  
disagreeing with me is like knocking into a stone wall with your head.

I already reviewed your reasons and did not find anything which would  
require my intervention, or some kind of punishment to the team members.

Furthermore, it's simply offtopic for this mailing list.


With the best regards,
Aleksey Bragin
ReactOS Project Coordinator.

P.S. I'm always open to suggestions, and I have met a lot of troubles  
and problems in this project, but let me say that award for the most  
silly complain ever goes to Steven Maddox.

[WaxDragon]

On 7/11/06, Steven Maddox (Cyorxamp) <s.maddox(a)cyorxamp.info> wrote:
>   I tried to rephrase my point, and I began with a
> sentence talking about
>  firefox as a metaphor of another great piece of floss software.  I was
>  interrupted by Alex_Ionescu (whom is an op in that channel) who told me
>  i 'must' state my reason using a single statement only and began quoting
>  regulations of the English language and structuring a proper argument...
>  so many regulations in fact i feel even if I did comply it would be
>  difficult to fit it in one statement. 
Ah, I see you have met Alex.  Don't let him shake ya, he has his days
like all of us.  You will meet an extremely diverse group in #reactos,
but we don't always agree on everything.  That is what makes this
project great.


WD
-- 
<GedMurphy> why does the size matter?

[Daniel Reimer]

Alex is really friendly most of the time. And if he's not, here 
reasons/solutions:

- try later again
- dont write in n00b language
- dont rephrase your stuff all again
- dont say anything bad about his coding/commit style
- dont tell him its his fault that trunk does not work anymore ;-)
- dont revert 100 revs full of good code just because trunk does not run 
anymore (Hey GL ;-) )

P.S. This is generalized, I wathcged your talk in IRC and those stuff 
above does not fit to your messages generally.

[Alex Ionescu]

WaxDragon wrote:

>   
>  Ah, I see you have met Alex.  Don't let him shake ya, he has his days
>  like all of us.  You will meet an extremely diverse group in #reactos,
>  but we don't always agree on everything.   
Hmm no, I think we were all agreeing to ban him and some of the
developers got angry on why I didn't ban him sooner.

Best regards,
Alex Ionescu