Dear ReactOS Developers,
I apologize for taking these extra ordinary steps in this matter but I could not locate another way of bringing this issue to attention on your site.
I was in the IRC channel on the 11th July '06 from about 3am to 5am GMT... I was posing some very interesting and fundamental questions about how the project began, it's direction. I was pleased that after a few minutes most of the users had agreed that ReactOS is intending to be much more than just NT compatible but in a sense 'Windows + Better'.
After this there was many hours of discussion of how to make it more than just a windows clone, many of such involving the idea of ReactOS being similar to Linux in some senses and how to get a Linux feel while maintaining windows compatibility.
Near the end of the log (I hope these are saved, I have no copies myself) an 'Alex_Ionescu' joined in on the conversation. He had many interesting views that greatly heightened the debate to whether ReactOS should intend to be more than windows now, or at a later date. I was for the view that in order to gain a user base quicker that it must at least intent to be more than a clone and was trying to illustrate why. I first tried to illustrate this and got shot down due to my poor phrasing of what I meant.
I tried to rephrase my point, and I began with a sentence talking about firefox as a metaphor of another great piece of floss software. I was interrupted by Alex_Ionescu (whom is an op in that channel) who told me i 'must' state my reason using a single statement only and began quoting regulations of the English language and structuring a proper argument... so many regulations in fact i feel even if I did comply it would be difficult to fit it in one statement.
I decided to wait until Alex_Ionescu had given up on such a silly and clear attempt at limiting my free speech in this matter. However he persisted to want to know what my point was on this matter, when trying again... he shut me down. Eventually he set the entire channel to moderated status only so only those he selected could discuss the matter. Apparently this was until I could phrase my argument using just one statement.
I waited until this was lifted and it was not, eventually I came back... spoke Spanish and under another nick! Granted this was to yet again give my point across... instead of this they knew who I was and quickly identified me. A silly tactic I know, but having done this I was quickly misquoted in the channel from my conversation with Alex_Ionescu about things I was trying to explain to him as well as very childish remarks as tho I had said "I love cock". I have high hopes for this project and wish it every success, I had a very enlightened experience up until meeting this person with the arguments put and listened and responded to them well. Alex_Ionescu on the other hand obviously has no understanding of what it means to express oneself freely, and it would seem has a childish nature too.
I ask that the decision to give this person power of the level of communication about the project in the channel be reviewed as quickly as possible in light of these or other past events.
Thank you,
Hello Mr. Maddox, thanks for your good opinion about ReactOS project!
Unfortunately I am not able to persist in IRC 24h a day, and I am not able to read up the logs, and even more I would spend my time on judging who is right in some irc-discussion.
This is IRC. It's an informal way of communication. People have personalities there, and everyone has different personality. This night (day for you probably) you learned the Alex's personality. Nothing really bad happened, I'm sure.
However, when using mailing lists, and making this kind of statements:
I ask that the decision to give this person power of the level of communication about the project in the channel be reviewed as quickly as possible in light of these or other past events.
is a little bit not very smart. I will outline the reasons for you: 1. I don't alter mailing list postings. So if someone said "Wine devs should go .... themselves", it's really bad, and the one who said it already understood that saying so in mailing lists is not an option. 2. I don't alter or control IRC. People say what they think there - it is The Freedom (and it's called Freenode too). People can say "Fireball sux" there, and I won't be offended, because it's either a joke or a sign that someone wished I do something differently. 3. Furthermore, I will hardly limit Alex's or any other developer's power level due to this incident, and you know this. No offence, but I trust my whole team more, and thus I'm subjective here.
And finally, isn't coming back to irc under different nickname, trying to make others believe that you are a different user, etc - isn't it a childish behaviour too? :-)
So, Steven, please get used to IRC - it's the most free way to express yourself, but be aware that everyone else is free to express himself too. And don't take everything so close to your heart.
With the best regards, Aleksey Bragin. ReactOS Project Coordinator.
On Jul 11, 2006, at 8:48 AM, Steven Maddox (Cyorxamp) wrote:
Dear ReactOS Developers,
I apologize for taking these extra ordinary steps in this matter but I could not locate another way of bringing this issue to attention on your site.
I was in the IRC channel on the 11th July '06 from about 3am to 5am GMT... I was posing some very interesting and fundamental questions about how the project began, it's direction. I was pleased that after a few minutes most of the users had agreed that ReactOS is intending to be much more than just NT compatible but in a sense 'Windows + Better'.
After this there was many hours of discussion of how to make it more than just a windows clone, many of such involving the idea of ReactOS being similar to Linux in some senses and how to get a Linux feel while maintaining windows compatibility.
Near the end of the log (I hope these are saved, I have no copies myself) an 'Alex_Ionescu' joined in on the conversation. He had many interesting views that greatly heightened the debate to whether ReactOS should intend to be more than windows now, or at a later date. I was for the view that in order to gain a user base quicker that it must at least intent to be more than a clone and was trying to illustrate why. I first tried to illustrate this and got shot down due to my poor phrasing of what I meant.
I tried to rephrase my point, and I began with a sentence talking about firefox as a metaphor of another great piece of floss software. I was interrupted by Alex_Ionescu (whom is an op in that channel) who told me i 'must' state my reason using a single statement only and began quoting regulations of the English language and structuring a proper argument... so many regulations in fact i feel even if I did comply it would be difficult to fit it in one statement.
I decided to wait until Alex_Ionescu had given up on such a silly and clear attempt at limiting my free speech in this matter. However he persisted to want to know what my point was on this matter, when trying again... he shut me down. Eventually he set the entire channel to moderated status only so only those he selected could discuss the matter. Apparently this was until I could phrase my argument using just one statement.
I waited until this was lifted and it was not, eventually I came back... spoke Spanish and under another nick! Granted this was to yet again give my point across... instead of this they knew who I was and quickly identified me. A silly tactic I know, but having done this I was quickly misquoted in the channel from my conversation with Alex_Ionescu about things I was trying to explain to him as well as very childish remarks as tho I had said "I love cock". I have high hopes for this project and wish it every success, I had a very enlightened experience up until meeting this person with the arguments put and listened and responded to them well. Alex_Ionescu on the other hand obviously has no understanding of what it means to express oneself freely, and it would seem has a childish nature too.
I ask that the decision to give this person power of the level of communication about the project in the channel be reviewed as quickly as possible in light of these or other past events.
Thank you,
-- Steven Maddox (Cyorxamp)
Thank you everyone for 'skimming' over my email...
Alex Bragin: "you learned the Alex's personality. Nothing really bad happened, I'm sure."
I disagree, if you had read my email you would have found that something did happen and I was no amused by it.
Alex Bragin: "it's the most free way to express yourself, but be aware that everyone else is free to express himself too"
And that means some have to freedom to limit the freedom for others to speak whenever it suits them for no valid reason?
Alex Bragin: "and thus I'm subjective here"
No kidding
For the record, I understand the diversities of IRC... I have even on occasion ran a channel or two myself with a great deal of people to deal with. Stopping someone from speaking because they are insulting or not following the rules is one thing... stopping them because you don't like 'how they structure an argument' is just pretentious.
WaxDragon: "Don't let him shake ya, he has his days like all of us"
Sure, I get that.. however this was not a problem with him 'not agreeing'... this was an issue with his silly attempts to limit how I can put my point across. If one day is not his day, I'll be more than willing to talk to him about all this.
Alex Ionescu: " some of the developers got angry on why I didn't ban him sooner"
What? Another point of view, another angle on things isn't respected nor tolerated in that channel? I was not at any point that channel someone who could be considered a 'troll' by hammering a sentence over and over. Every point I made had some evidence or theory that was different. I swear you think your god Alex.
Daniel Reimer: "dont rephrase your stuff all again"
I am not rephrasing simply to say the exact same in another way. I was rephrasing to include more information and examples to put the issue in perspective. As to you other 'tips' on IRC, they do not apply.
Steven Maddox (Cyorxamp)
Cyorxamp http://www.cyorxamp.info
Okay, seriously I don't want to sound rude, but here is what I think. Please remember this is just an opinion.
Coming into an IRC channel and telling us that we need to completely rethink our project is the height of stupidity and thoughtlessness. And, on top of that, you suggest these changes but seem to have no concept of what would actually be possible and what would not be possible for an Operating System to perform. And, in addition, you didn't offer to help at all, you simply started telling us that our project would be crap if we didn't do what you wanted us to.
I don't mind good, constructive suggestions, but a 2-3 hour argument which serves no purpose whatsoever just seems to be a little bit too much. Also, I would hardly call what you received "mistreatment". In my opinion, you should have been kicked/banned from the channel long before you were. Not for making a suggestion, but for trolling the channel and flaming those who didn't agree.
I suggest you read this: http://www.onlinenetiquette.com/netiquette_101.html
Again, this is just my opinion, but I believe that most of the people that were on the channel at that time would agree.
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"I don't mind good, constructive suggestions, but a 2-3 hour argument which serves no purpose whatsoever just seems to be a little bit too much. Also, I would hardly call what you received "mistreatment". In my opinion, you should have been kicked/banned from the channel long before you were. Not for making a suggestion, but for trolling the channel and flaming those who didn't agree."
lol, true. And when he contines to flame in ML.... Can someone be banned from here, too?
Nathan.......
Coming into an IRC channel and telling us that we need to completely rethink our project is the height of stupidity and thoughtlessness.
If you had read the log properly you will see that I suggest any 'cross kernel' idea to be an after thought that could perhaps be tried separately
on top of that, you suggest these changes but seem to have no concept of what would actually be possible and what would not be possible for an Operating System to perform.
Your opinion, not mine
And, in addition, you didn't offer to help at all
I did, I need to brush up on a few things, but I would be more than willing
you simply started telling us that our project would be crap if we didn't do what you wanted us to.
Show me where I said that
I don't mind good, constructive suggestions, but a 2-3 hour argument which serves no purpose whatsoever just seems to be a little bit too much.
Not an argument, a debate... one I found quite constructive
Also, I would hardly call what you received "mistreatment". In my opinion, you should have been kicked/banned from the channel long before you were. Not for making a suggestion, but for trolling the channel and flaming those who didn't agree.
I was not trolling, I was discussing... go learn the difference
I suggest you read this: http://www.onlinenetiquette.com/netiquette_101.html
Not thank you, your advise seems quite biased
The same points apply to you Daniel Reimer
Steven Maddox (Cyorxamp)
Cyorxamp http://www.cyorxamp.info
I was not trolling, I was discussing... go learn the difference
Okay, here's the difference. Tell Wikipedia they're wrong.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flaming
Read the entire first section of each page, and you'll soon understand how you were both trolling and flaming.
This discussion does not even belong here, as it is intended to cause anger and disruption (thus trolling). Alex Ionescu will not be relieved of his position in #reactos, and you should drop even the faintest notion that it will happen. Since I don't want to "feed the troll", and because this discussion is terribly out of place, I will withdraw from this discussion. Feel free to post to your heart's content, but do not expect any action to be taken.
P.S. If you don't like ReactOS, you have 3 options:
1) Customize it to your needs 2) Deal with it 3) Leave
It's your choice, do whichever one you want. I would hate for it to have to come to option 3, but it is entirely up to you and your behavior.
__________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Please keep this discussion off ros-*dev*.
Maarten Bosma
Coviti wrote:
I was not trolling, I was discussing... go learn the difference
Okay, here's the difference. Tell Wikipedia they're wrong.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flaming
Read the entire first section of each page, and you'll soon understand how you were both trolling and flaming.
This discussion does not even belong here, as it is intended to cause anger and disruption (thus trolling). Alex Ionescu will not be relieved of his position in #reactos, and you should drop even the faintest notion that it will happen. Since I don't want to "feed the troll", and because this discussion is terribly out of place, I will withdraw from this discussion. Feel free to post to your heart's content, but do not expect any action to be taken.
P.S. If you don't like ReactOS, you have 3 options:
- Customize it to your needs
- Deal with it
- Leave
It's your choice, do whichever one you want. I would hate for it to have to come to option 3, but it is entirely up to you and your behavior.
Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
"I am not rephrasing simply to say the exact same in another way. I was rephrasing to include more information and examples to put the issue in perspective. As to you other 'tips' on IRC, they do not apply."
And as I said. "This is generalized, I watched your talk in IRC and those stuff above does not fit to your messages generally."
My good friend, you are strange... (Pursuit illusion???) I tried to give you some advice and get a very kind answer, thx. Thats the reasons they started making fun of you in IRC. Sry, but this is true.
On Jul 11, 2006, at 7:49 PM, Steven Maddox (Cyorxamp) wrote:
Thank you everyone for 'skimming' over my email...
Alex Bragin: "you learned the Alex's personality. Nothing really bad happened, I'm sure."
I disagree, if you had read my email you would have found that something did happen and I was no amused by it.
I'm the highest instance and the highest force in this project. So disagreeing with me is like knocking into a stone wall with your head.
I already reviewed your reasons and did not find anything which would require my intervention, or some kind of punishment to the team members.
Furthermore, it's simply offtopic for this mailing list.
With the best regards, Aleksey Bragin ReactOS Project Coordinator.
P.S. I'm always open to suggestions, and I have met a lot of troubles and problems in this project, but let me say that award for the most silly complain ever goes to Steven Maddox.
On 7/11/06, Steven Maddox (Cyorxamp) s.maddox@cyorxamp.info wrote:
I tried to rephrase my point, and I began with a sentence talking about firefox as a metaphor of another great piece of floss software. I was interrupted by Alex_Ionescu (whom is an op in that channel) who told me i 'must' state my reason using a single statement only and began quoting regulations of the English language and structuring a proper argument... so many regulations in fact i feel even if I did comply it would be difficult to fit it in one statement.
Ah, I see you have met Alex. Don't let him shake ya, he has his days like all of us. You will meet an extremely diverse group in #reactos, but we don't always agree on everything. That is what makes this project great.
WD
Alex is really friendly most of the time. And if he's not, here reasons/solutions:
- try later again - dont write in n00b language - dont rephrase your stuff all again - dont say anything bad about his coding/commit style - dont tell him its his fault that trunk does not work anymore ;-) - dont revert 100 revs full of good code just because trunk does not run anymore (Hey GL ;-) )
P.S. This is generalized, I wathcged your talk in IRC and those stuff above does not fit to your messages generally.
WaxDragon wrote:
Ah, I see you have met Alex. Don't let him shake ya, he has his days like all of us. You will meet an extremely diverse group in #reactos, but we don't always agree on everything.
Hmm no, I think we were all agreeing to ban him and some of the developers got angry on why I didn't ban him sooner.
Best regards, Alex Ionescu
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Aleksey Bragin -
Alex Ionescu -
Coviti -
Daniel Reimer -
Maarten Bosma -
Nathan Davidson
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Steven Maddox (Cyorxamp) -
WaxDragon