Re: [ros-svn] [mbosma] 20952: Delete libjpeg because sedwards and greatlord thought we should wait with jpeg support until the patent expired. If someone got a different opinion please take the issue to ros-dev.

[mf]

Hi folks,

>   Delete libjpeg because sedwards and greatlord thought
> we should wait  
with jpeg support until the patent expired. If someone got a
different 
opinion please take the issue to ros-dev.
>  
>
>  Deleted files:
>  vendor/libjpeg/ 
I hereby "take the issue to ros-dev", because I have a different 
opinion. ReactOS is filled with patented (to more and lesser extent, 
ranging from SEH to scrollbars, I kid you not) features, and I believe 
it is hypocritical to simply remove one of them. I don't know the 
details on the libjpeg patent, but I do know that linux distributions 
use libjpeg as well, and I haven't seen them remove it yet. I officially 
request a vote to revert this commit.

Thanks for reading,

mf.

[Magnus Olsen]

HI
I am sick of this talk in ros
this question alwasy comes back each month about seh, jpg and some other
pantent

SEH panrtet is not affect ros, we handler it diffent.

jpg pentent will end at end of oct this hear first then we can implement jpg
support in ros

scrobars pantent was first pantent by apple and later it was invaild,

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "mf" <mf(a)mufunyo.net>
To: "ReactOS Development List" <ros-dev(a)reactos.org>
Sent: den 20 January 2006 18:05
Subject: [ros-dev] Re: [ros-svn] [mbosma] 20952: Delete libjpeg because
sedwards and greatlord thought we should wait with jpeg support until the
patent expired. If someone got a different opinion please take the issue to
ros-dev.


>   Hi folks,
>
> >   Delete libjpeg because sedwards and greatlord
> > thought we should wait 
>  with jpeg support until the patent expired. If someone got a
> different
>  opinion please take the issue to ros-dev.
> >  
> >
> >  Deleted files:
> >  vendor/libjpeg/ 
>  I hereby "take the issue to ros-dev", because I have a different
>  opinion. ReactOS is filled with patented (to more and lesser extent,
>  ranging from SEH to scrollbars, I kid you not) features, and I believe
>  it is hypocritical to simply remove one of them. I don't know the
>  details on the libjpeg patent, but I do know that linux distributions
>  use libjpeg as well, and I haven't seen them remove it yet. I officially
>  request a vote to revert this commit.
>
>  Thanks for reading,
>
>  mf.
>  _______________________________________________
>  Ros-dev mailing list
>  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
>  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev

[art yerkes]

On Fri, 20 Jan 2006 18:05:11 +0100
mf <mf(a)mufunyo.net> wrote:

>   Hi folks,
>  
> >   Delete libjpeg because sedwards and greatlord
> > thought we should wait  
>  with jpeg support until the patent expired. If someone got
> a different 
>  opinion please take the issue to ros-dev.
> >  
> >
> >  Deleted files:
> >  vendor/libjpeg/ 
>  
>  I hereby "take the issue to ros-dev", because I have a different 
>  opinion. ReactOS is filled with patented (to more and lesser extent, 
>  ranging from SEH to scrollbars, I kid you not) features, and I believe 
>  it is hypocritical to simply remove one of them. I don't know the 
>  details on the libjpeg patent, but I do know that linux distributions 
>  use libjpeg as well, and I haven't seen them remove it yet. I officially 
>  request a vote to revert this commit. 
There's a lot of FUD going on here.

For one thing, our SEH method is not patented.  It is a novel method
devised by KJK which doesn't use compiler support as claimed by the
borland patent.
-- 
Here's a simple experiment. Stand on a train track between two
locomotives which are pushing on you with equal force in opposite
directions. You will exhibit no net motion. None the less, you may
soon begin to notice that something important is happening.
-- Robert Stirniman

[Casper Hornstrup]

>   There's a lot of FUD going on here.
>  
>  For one thing, our SEH method is not patented.  It is a novel method
>  devised by KJK which doesn't use compiler support as claimed by the
>  borland patent.
>  --
>  Here's a simple experiment. Stand on a train track between two
>  locomotives which are pushing on you with equal force in opposite
>  directions. You will exhibit no net motion. None the less, you may
>  soon begin to notice that something important is happening. 
The OS-level SEH does use frames on a stack.

Casper

[mf]

art yerkes wrote:
>   There's a lot of FUD going on here. 
I agree
wholeheartedly.
>   
>  For one thing, our SEH method is not patented. 
For another thing, the patent
appears to be this:

<==
The JPEG spec defines two different "back end" modules for the final 
output of compressed data: either Huffman coding or arithmetic coding is 
allowed. The choice has no impact on image quality, but arithmetic 
coding usually produces a smaller compressed file.  On typical images, 
arithmetic coding produces a file 5 to 10 percent smaller than Huffman 
coding.  (All the file-size numbers previously cited are for Huffman 
coding.)

Unfortunately, the particular variant of arithmetic coding specified by 
the JPEG standard is subject to patents owned by IBM, AT&T, and 
Mitsubishi. Thus *you cannot legally use JPEG arithmetic coding* unless 
you obtain licenses from these companies.  (Patent law's "experimental 
use" exception allows people to test a patented method in the context of 
scientific research, but any commercial or routine personal use is 
infringement.)

I recommend that people not use JPEG arithmetic coding; the space 
savings isn't great enough to justify the potential legal hassles.  In 
particular, arithmetic coding *should not* be used for any images to be 
exchanged on the Internet.  Even if you don't care about US patent law, 
other folks do.
/==>

I believe that something like that is easily commented out, and does not 
require a removal of the entire lib. *sings the FUD song*

mf

[Casper Hornstrup]

I hereby "take the issue to ros-dev", because I have a different 
opinion. ReactOS is filled with patented (to more and lesser extent, 
ranging from SEH to scrollbars, I kid you not) features, and I believe 
it is hypocritical to simply remove one of them. I don't know the 
details on the libjpeg patent, but I do know that linux distributions 
use libjpeg as well, and I haven't seen them remove it yet. I officially 
request a vote to revert this commit.

Thanks for reading,

mf.


I agree. Make the support optional instead and let the user choose which
features to enable. ReactOS frame-based exception handling is also covered
by a patent. Of course, if you disable that feature then ReactOS is
practically unusable ;-( But my point is, let the user choose. The user can
buy a license for these patent covered features if they need one.

Casper

[Maarten Bosma]

Hi,

>   I believe that something like that is easily commented
> out, and does 
>  not require a removal of the entire lib. 

No, that is already disabled by default as far as I know, we are talking 
about another patent: U.S. Patent 4,698,672 
<http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?patentnumber=4,698,672> that 
will expire on *October 27, 2006.*

Also I'd also like to explain that this lib was never used. It did only 
import it into /vendor and not into /trunk/reactos/lib, so a revert of 
my delete would be pointless if none wants to write code that uses it. I 
do have imported it in my working copy, together with a almost done 
patch for jpeg-wallpaper loading, but I have decided not to commit it 
until *October 27, 2006.

*Here is a quote from interesting quote from wikipedia:

>   In 2002 <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002>
> Forgent Networks 
>  <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forgent_Networks> asserted that it owns 
>  and will enforce patent <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patent> rights 
>  on the JPEG technology, arising from a patent that had been filed in 
>  1986 <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986> (U.S. Patent 4,698,672 
>  <http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?patentnumber=4,698,672>). 
>  The announcement has created a furor reminiscent of Unisys 
>  <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unisys>' attempts to assert its rights 
>  over the GIF <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GIF> image compression 
>  standard.
>
>  The JPEG committee investigated the patent claims in 2002 and are of 
>  the opinion that they were invalidated by prior art. Others have also 
>  concluded that Forgent doesn't have a patent that covers JPEG. 
>  Nevertheless, between 2002 <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002> and 
>  2004 <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004> Forgent was able to obtain 
>  about $90 million by licensing their patent to some 30 companies. In 
>  April 2004 Forgent sued 31 other companies to enforce further license 
>  payments. In July of the same year, a consortium of 21 large computer 
>  companies filed a countersuit, with the goal of invalidating the 
>  patent. However, as of July 2005, the battle is still ongoing ). 
>  Surprisingly, in contrast to the other major computer companies such 
>  as Sony and Philips, Microsoft has launched a major lawsuit against 
>  Forgent. In principle, the Forgent patent will expire in 2006.
>
>  The JPEG committee has as one of its explicit goals that their 
>  standards (in particular their baseline methods) be implementable 
>  without payment of license fees, and they have secured appropriate 
>  license rights for their upcoming JPEG 2000 
>  <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JPEG_2000> standard from over 20 large 
>  organizations.
>  
PS: I did already write to mailing list once because of this. topic is 
"[ros-dev] libjpeg"

Best regards,

Maarten Bosma