Hi, I did not receive anny replies about my question to make reactos accessible for the blind. I would really suggest to do that while building the os, instead of doign it when the whole system is fully built.
Jumping in here with a quick reply as a *lurker*, not a developer:
Don't think anyone would mind if you supplied patches :). You have to understand, with people still working on kernel things, making applications actually work, stop crashing, hardware support...
Most that would interface with screenreaders would *probably* be handled by WINE anyway. Is there something specific you have a problem with not working? If so, do file a bug report! But first check that the same fault doesn't pop up with wine under linux.
On Wed, 14 Nov 2018, 15:39 Dick <dick@deds.nl wrote:
Hi, I did not receive anny replies about my question to make reactos accessible for the blind. I would really suggest to do that while building the os, instead of doign it when the whole system is fully built.
Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
The installer itself needs to be accessible enough. WINE does not use a Windows style installer by itself.
14.11.2018 17:51 tarihinde Magnus Johnsson yazdı:
Jumping in here with a quick reply as a *lurker*, not a developer:
Don't think anyone would mind if you supplied patches :). You have to understand, with people still working on kernel things, making applications actually work, stop crashing, hardware support...
Most that would interface with screenreaders would *probably* be handled by WINE anyway. Is there something specific you have a problem with not working? If so, do file a bug report! But first check that the same fault doesn't pop up with wine under linux.
On Wed, 14 Nov 2018, 15:39 Dick <dick@deds.nl mailto:dick@deds.nl wrote:
Hi, I did not receive anny replies about my question to make reactos accessible for the blind. I would really suggest to do that while building the os, instead of doign it when the whole system is fully built. _______________________________________________ Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org <mailto:Ros-dev@reactos.org> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
Hi magnus, unfortunately this is not how screenreaders work. screenreaders rely on accessibility libraries built into the operating system. running a windows screenreader in linux will not work, you need to use orc(the linux screenreader). fortunately some realy helpfull packages are already ported to windows(brltty to use braille displays and espeak to give speech output). but these applications are just part of the proces. for example when running brltty in graphic mode it will just show lines filled with the ? symbol. the main problem of screenreaders is they have to find out what developers had done to make an app accessible. for example, when a screenreader give access to firefox version 40 that same version will probably run into problems when running version 60, the screen reader needs to be updated and adjusted to the changes made in the app. Reactos is an os built from the ground. what i think would be helpfull is to do it the other way this time: built functionality into the os to display just text on braille displays instead of graphics for example. when the accessibility is fully built into the os updated apps will have much less influence because the os itself is doing the tasks needed to make everythign accessible. I think it is a much harder job to build this into a fully finished os than to include such features in an os that is still in heavy development.
On Wed, 14 Nov 2018, Magnus Johnsson wrote:
Jumping in here with a quick reply as a *lurker*, not a developer:
Don't think anyone would mind if you supplied patches :). You have to understand, with people still working on kernel things, making applications actually work, stop crashing, hardware support... Most that would interface with screenreaders would *probably* be handled by WINE anyway. Is there something specific you have a problem with not working? If so, do file a bug report! But first check that the same fault doesn't pop up with wine under linux.
On Wed, 14 Nov 2018, 15:39 Dick <dick@deds.nl wrote: Hi, I did not receive anny replies about my question to make reactos accessible for the blind. I would really suggest to do that while building the os, instead of doign it when the whole system is fully built.
_______________________________________________ Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
the main problem of screenreaders is they have to find out what developers had done to make an app accessible. for example, when a screenreader give access to firefox version 40 that same version will probably run into problems when running version 60, the screen reader needs to be updated and adjusted to the changes made in the app. Reactos is an os built from the ground. what i think would be helpfull is to do it the other way this time: built functionality into the os to display just text on braille displays instead of graphics for example. when the accessibility is fully built into the os updated apps will have much less influence because the os itself is doing the tasks needed to make everythign accessible. I think it is a much harder job to build this into a fully finished os than to include such features in an os that is still in heavy development.
Some software will not work that way because they supply UI not text, just images. That kind of software will not work with screenreaders nor hi-contrast unless it is explicitly programmed for.
of course, you are right. but like in linux, much software can be ran headless without graphics.
On Wed, 14 Nov 2018, Erkin Alp Güney wrote:
the main problem of screenreaders is they have to find out what developers had done to make an app accessible. for example, when a screenreader give access to firefox version 40 that same version will probably run into problems when running version 60, the screen reader needs to be updated and adjusted to the changes made in the app. Reactos is an os built from the ground. what i think would be helpfull is to do it the other way this time: built functionality into the os to display just text on braille displays instead of graphics for example. when the accessibility is fully built into the os updated apps will have much less influence because the os itself is doing the tasks needed to make everythign accessible. I think it is a much harder job to build this into a fully finished os than to include such features in an os that is still in heavy development.
Some software will not work that way because they supply UI not text, just images. That kind of software will not work with screenreaders nor hi-contrast unless it is explicitly programmed for.
Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
This is not Linux, Windows software can NOT run with no graphics ;)
El mié., 14 nov. 2018 17:36, Dick dick@deds.nl escribió:
of course, you are right. but like in linux, much software can be ran headless without graphics.
On Wed, 14 Nov 2018, Erkin Alp Güney wrote:
the main problem of screenreaders is they have to find out what developers had done to make an app accessible. for example, when a screenreader give access to firefox version 40 that same version will probably run into problems when running version 60, the screen reader needs to be updated and adjusted to the changes made in the app. Reactos is an os built from the ground. what i think would be helpfull is to do it the other way this time: built functionality into the os to display just text on braille displays instead of graphics for example. when the accessibility is fully built into the os updated apps will have much less influence because the os itself is doing the tasks needed to make everythign accessible. I think it is a much harder job to build this into a fully finished os than to include such features in an os that is still in heavy development.
Some software will not work that way because they supply UI not text, just images. That kind of software will not work with screenreaders nor hi-contrast unless it is explicitly programmed for.
Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
The console itself is still a graphical user mode app; it or a DOS box simply uses a DefConsoleProc (sic) instead of DefWindowProc behind the scenes to manage the GUI aspects and system menu, and may use an OEM code page instead of an ANSI one in full screen mode. Windows may eventually be able to boot to a native mode full screen console instead of explorer, but that is real low on the priorities list, afaik.
The primary bar to using braille in the installer, that I see, is that it requires at least two code pages to represent various text and line delimeters and the 8 dots of graphics defined for it, or G0, G1 and G2 charmaps for systems that support ISO-2022, and the installer is only designed to use one code page, that maps to one defined GL and GR charmaps as inputs, for ANSI code pages. This is because no video card or terminal I'm aware of currently supports multi-byte encodings at power up / boot time as a hardware limitation, not software; at most a BIOS may use additional graphics for chars that index into the C0 and C1 charmaps on output, like with VGA/VESA's support for CP437.
The assumption has been boot time applications like installers would limit themselves to ISO-646 variants like ASCII, to make writing BIOS ROMs easier. People needing special peripherals like braille bump printers or bump scanners would have these supported once a sighted person configured their system for them.
------ Original message------ From: Erkin Alp Güney Date: Wed, Nov 14, 2018 12:49 PM To: ros-dev@reactos.org; Cc: Subject:Re: [ros-dev] no replies about making reactos accessible for the blind
You can if you implement a Win32 to console translator. Nothing is impossible.
14.11.2018 20:13 tarihinde Javier Agustìn Fernàndez Arroyo yazdı:
This is not Linux, Windows software can NOT run with no graphics ;)
_______________________________________________ Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Freactos.org...
Braille will not be output by GPU, it will be output by CPU onto either USB or serial Braille bumper. Two different output channels may use two different codepages. If they were somewhat dependent as in multi-monitor situation, you would need to drive both via GPU. However they are independent output channels, which just happen to share contents. Commonly used Braille is a six dot encoding and most letters and numbers are encoded by this encoding. Eight dot encoding is used for music and mathematical notations.
I'm not saying it isn't possible to support the hardware, just I have not seen any pre-boot environment that the installer might need to communicate with attempt to provide this support, so it is also available to whatever gets installed, after reboot. The installer may be fine using only 6-dot combinations, but I'd consider it likely some varieties of applications will assume all 8 dots may be input or output over the single channels most compilers support.
------ Original message------ From: Erkin Alp Güney Date: Thu, Nov 15, 2018 1:04 AM To: ros-dev@reactos.org; Cc: Subject:Re: [ros-dev] no replies about making reactos accessible for the blind
Braille will not be output by GPU, it will be output by CPU onto either USB or serial Braille bumper. Two different output channels may use two different codepages. If they were somewhat dependent as in multi-monitor situation, you would need to drive both via GPU. However they are independent output channels, which just happen to share contents. Commonly used Braille is a six dot encoding and most letters and numbers are encoded by this encoding. Eight dot encoding is used for music and mathematical notations.
_______________________________________________ Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Freactos.org...
You unset the lower line of a 8-bit matrix and you get 6-bit display. This is simple bit masking and will not require complex driver operations.
15.11.2018 09:59 tarihinde M. Ziggyesque yazdı:
I'm not saying it isn't possible to support the hardware, just I have not seen any pre-boot environment that the installer might need to communicate with attempt to provide this support, so it is also available to whatever gets installed, after reboot. The installer may be fine using only 6-dot combinations, but I'd consider it likely some varieties of applications will assume all 8 dots may be input or output over the single channels most compilers support.
------ Original message------ *From: *Erkin Alp Güney *Date: *Thu, Nov 15, 2018 1:04 AM *To: *ros-dev@reactos.org; *Cc: * *Subject:*Re: [ros-dev] no replies about making reactos accessible for the blind
Braille will not be output by GPU, it will be output by CPU onto either USB or serial Braille bumper. Two different output channels may use two different codepages. If they were somewhat dependent as in multi-monitor situation, you would need to drive both via GPU. However they are independent output channels, which just happen to share contents. Commonly used Braille is a six dot encoding and most letters and numbers are encoded by this encoding. Eight dot encoding is used for music and mathematical notations.
Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Freactos.org...
Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
why not just run brltty driver in the boot process? when installer is textmode the only thing would be it has to be able to detect the usb/serial braille display
Windows NT console API is based on Matrix TUI concept, not TTY serial (means you get to handle line buffering yourself). However, unlike userspace, we can modify setup however we like as long as it has the desired end result.
Yours, faithfully Erkin Alp
Hi,
you might want to take a look at the goal of ReactOS again. Out current focus should target that goal. Writing screenreader stuff should be the same task and use exactly the same OS functions as in Windows. Thus, develop screen readers for Windows (possibly replacing / extending windows' gui libraries - but that would be a completely separate project, not part of ReactOS. Once that screenreader works on Windows, put effort into fixing bugs / missing features in ReactOS to get it working.
Any other solution will not be worth the time and effort you put into it.
Just my personal opinion.
Best regards, basisbit
Am Do., 15. Nov. 2018, 10:21 hat Erkin Alp Güney erkinalp9035@gmail.com geschrieben:
Windows NT console API is based on Matrix TUI concept, not TTY serial (means you get to handle line buffering yourself). However, unlike userspace, we can modify setup however we like as long as it has the desired end result.
Yours, faithfully Erkin Alp
Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
Stefan, I know the aim of ReactOS. However, Windows XP setup lacks accessibility and this is a new functionality to ReactOS. Hence no compatibility issues. In addition, you cannot use ReactOS setup to install Windows XP nor vice versa.
15.11.2018 13:05 tarihinde Stefan L. yazdı:
Hi,
you might want to take a look at the goal of ReactOS again. Out current focus should target that goal. Writing screenreader stuff should be the same task and use exactly the same OS functions as in Windows. Thus, develop screen readers for Windows (possibly replacing / extending windows' gui libraries - but that would be a completely separate project, not part of ReactOS. Once that screenreader works on Windows, put effort into fixing bugs / missing features in ReactOS to get it working.
Any other solution will not be worth the time and effort you put into it.
Just my personal opinion.
Best regards, basisbit
Am Do., 15. Nov. 2018, 10:21 hat Erkin Alp Güney <erkinalp9035@gmail.com mailto:erkinalp9035@gmail.com> geschrieben:
Windows NT console API is based on Matrix TUI concept, not TTY serial (means you get to handle line buffering yourself). However, unlike userspace, we can modify setup however we like as long as it has the desired end result. Yours, faithfully Erkin Alp _______________________________________________ Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org <mailto:Ros-dev@reactos.org> http://reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
i think the chance ereactos has is to develop accessibility as part of the os instead of depending on a screenreader. when reactos does all accessibillity stuff itself it can make things accessibel that are not accessibel with screenreaders because the accessibility is built into the os itself, like graphics are sent to the gpu text should be sent to the braille display, maybe it should be built like a monochrome mode, everything should still work but the used screen is not capable of anny graphics so just the text should be sent to it.
On Thu, 15 Nov 2018, Stefan L. wrote:
Hi, you might want to take a look at the goal of ReactOS again. Out current focus should target that goal. Writing screenreader stuff should be the same task and use exactly the same OS functions as in Windows. Thus, develop screen readers for Windows (possibly replacing / extending windows' gui libraries - but that would be a completely separate project, not part of ReactOS. Once that screenreader works on Windows, put effort into fixing bugs / missing features in ReactOS to get it working. Any other solution will not be worth the time and effort you put into it.
Just my personal opinion.
Best regards, basisbit
Am Do., 15. Nov. 2018, 10:21 hat Erkin Alp Güney erkinalp9035@gmail.com geschrieben: Windows NT console API is based on Matrix TUI concept, not TTY serial (means you get to handle line buffering yourself). However, unlike userspace, we can modify setup however we like as long as it has the desired end result.
Yours, faithfully Erkin Alp _______________________________________________ Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
That will only work if programs adhere to UX guidelines.
15.11.2018 13:30 tarihinde Dick yazdı:
i think the chance ereactos has is to develop accessibility as part of the os instead of depending on a screenreader. when reactos does all accessibillity stuff itself it can make things accessibel that are not accessibel with screenreaders because the accessibility is built into the os itself, like graphics are sent to the gpu text should be sent to the braille display, maybe it should be built like a monochrome mode, everything should still work but the used screen is not capable of anny graphics so just the text should be sent to it.
why not? i am not a programmer myself, but maybe there is a workaround(emulating graphics mode but not displaying them for example), maybe things that are not possible in microsoft windows can be made possible in the windows-environment reactos creates
On Wed, 14 Nov 2018, Javier Agustìn Fernàndez Arroyo wrote:
This is not Linux, Windows software can NOT run with no graphics ;)
El mié., 14 nov. 2018 17:36, Dick dick@deds.nl escribió: of course, you are right. but like in linux, much software can be ran headless without graphics.
On Wed, 14 Nov 2018, Erkin Alp Güney wrote: >> the main problem of screenreaders is they have to find out what >> developers had done to make an app accessible. for example, when a >> screenreader give access to firefox version 40 that same version will >> probably run into problems when running version 60, the screen reader >> needs to be updated and adjusted to the changes made in the app. >> Reactos is an os built from the ground. what i think would be helpfull >> is to do it the other way this time: built functionality into the os >> to display just text on braille displays instead of graphics for >> example. when the accessibility is fully built into the os updated >> apps will have much less influence because the os itself is doing the >> tasks needed to make everythign accessible. I think it is a much >> harder job to build this into a fully finished os than to include such >> features in an os that is still in heavy development. > > Some software will not work that way because they supply UI not text, > just images. That kind of software will not work with screenreaders nor > hi-contrast unless it is explicitly programmed for. > > > > _______________________________________________ > Ros-dev mailing list > Ros-dev@reactos.org >http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev____________________________ ___________________ Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
WINE's accessibility stuff is handled by underlying desktop's UI kit, not by WINE itself.
14.11.2018 17:51 tarihinde Magnus Johnsson yazdı:
Jumping in here with a quick reply as a *lurker*, not a developer:
Don't think anyone would mind if you supplied patches :). You have to understand, with people still working on kernel things, making applications actually work, stop crashing, hardware support...
Most that would interface with screenreaders would *probably* be handled by WINE anyway. Is there something specific you have a problem with not working? If so, do file a bug report! But first check that the same fault doesn't pop up with wine under linux.
On Wed, 14 Nov 2018, 15:39 Dick <dick@deds.nl mailto:dick@deds.nl wrote:
Hi, I did not receive anny replies about my question to make reactos accessible for the blind. I would really suggest to do that while building the os, instead of doign it when the whole system is fully built. _______________________________________________ Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org <mailto:Ros-dev@reactos.org> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
Interesting! So I was *completely* wrong ;).
How would *you* go about making the installer accessible?
Den ons 14 nov. 2018 kl 19:10 skrev Erkin Alp Güney <erkinalp9035@gmail.com
:
WINE's accessibility stuff is handled by underlying desktop's UI kit, not by WINE itself.
14.11.2018 17:51 tarihinde Magnus Johnsson yazdı:
Jumping in here with a quick reply as a *lurker*, not a developer:
Don't think anyone would mind if you supplied patches :). You have to understand, with people still working on kernel things, making applications actually work, stop crashing, hardware support...
Most that would interface with screenreaders would *probably* be handled by WINE anyway. Is there something specific you have a problem with not working? If so, do file a bug report! But first check that the same fault doesn't pop up with wine under linux.
On Wed, 14 Nov 2018, 15:39 Dick <dick@deds.nl mailto:dick@deds.nl
wrote:
Hi, I did not receive anny replies about my question to make reactos accessible for the blind. I would really suggest to do that while building the os, instead of doign it when the whole system is fully built. _______________________________________________ Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org <mailto:Ros-dev@reactos.org> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
USETUP may be modified to implement a Braille device and display an almost identical text interface via Braille. GUI setup might either be made accessible by a Win32 open source screenreader and high-contrast and magnifier should be selectable as early as possible (see iOS welcome screen).
14.11.2018 23:03 tarihinde Magnus Johnsson yazdı:
Interesting! So I was *completely* wrong ;).
How would *you* go about making the installer accessible?
Den ons 14 nov. 2018 kl 19:10 skrev Erkin Alp Güney <erkinalp9035@gmail.com mailto:erkinalp9035@gmail.com>:
WINE's accessibility stuff is handled by underlying desktop's UI kit, not by WINE itself. 14.11.2018 17:51 tarihinde Magnus Johnsson yazdı: > Jumping in here with a quick reply as a *lurker*, not a developer: > > Don't think anyone would mind if you supplied patches :). You have to > understand, with people still working on kernel things, making > applications actually work, stop crashing, hardware support... > > Most that would interface with screenreaders would *probably* be > handled by WINE anyway. Is there something specific you have a problem > with not working? If so, do file a bug report! But first check that > the same fault doesn't pop up with wine under linux. > > On Wed, 14 Nov 2018, 15:39 Dick <dick@deds.nl <mailto:dick@deds.nl> <mailto:dick@deds.nl <mailto:dick@deds.nl>> wrote: > > Hi, > I did not receive anny replies about my question to make reactos > accessible for the blind. I would really suggest to do that while > building > the os, instead of doign it when the whole system is fully built. > > > _______________________________________________ > Ros-dev mailing list > Ros-dev@reactos.org <mailto:Ros-dev@reactos.org> <mailto:Ros-dev@reactos.org <mailto:Ros-dev@reactos.org>> > http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev > > > _______________________________________________ > Ros-dev mailing list > Ros-dev@reactos.org <mailto:Ros-dev@reactos.org> > http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev _______________________________________________ Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org <mailto:Ros-dev@reactos.org> http://reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
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Dick -
Erkin Alp Güney -
Javier Agustìn Fernàndez Arroyo -
M. Ziggyesque -
Magnus Johnsson -
Stefan L.