Roadmap I'm sticking to

[Aleksey Bragin]

	Hello,
yesterday we had a usual rant in #reactos-dev regarding organization,  
teaming and development issues, and I explained how I see it. I think  
explaining and discussing here would be beneficial.

I won't spend your time explaining how I came to this roadmap, I will  
go right to it. This roadmap is mainly usage-oriented and doesn't  
cover the kernel (it has its own one).

* Finish wine-based subsystem ("arwinss"), fixing all internal  
(absent in Wine and/or trunk) bugs.
Milestone 1: user32 and gdi32 known to work and support at least all  
the apps listed in the Wine app compat database.
* Test as many as possible apps known to work in Wine and determine  
those which fail.
* Fix failing components (kernel32, ntdll, kernel, CSR, non-synced  
DLLs, etc).
Milestone 2: ReactOS supporting quite wide amount of applications,  
including major apps like MS Office suites, Open Office, CAD systems,  
Adobe products.
Decision point: Because other Win32 components are proven to work, NT- 
alike user32, gdi32 and win32k development may be boosted, testing  
simplified.
* Implement filesystem drivers, using fastfat_new as a universal  
skeleton for FS drivers. Use ntfs3g library and that skeleton to  
develop an NTFS IFS driver.
Milestone 3: ReactOS with NTFS support (quite important for end  
users, thus separated into a standalone milestone).
* Total rewrite of networking, using NT's one as a model.
Milestone 4: ReactOS with a rock-stable networking. Ability to host  
database servers, web and FTP servers.
* Release 1.0 and profit ;)


So that's what I'm sticking to so far. I don't expect everyone to  
agree, but if more people are involved, achieving these milestones  
will happen faster. Also, they don't really have to go in a sequence,  
all of that may be done simulteneously (e.g. filesystem drivers must  
be developed against Windows 2003; kernel32 and ntdll could be fixed  
first using winetests without waiting for arwinss to be complete;  
networking could be again tested in existing ReactOS and Windows).

Comments, improvements are welcome.

WBR,
Aleksey Bragin.

[Ged Murphy]

I'm confused. Is this your personal roadmap or a team roadmap?

If it's a personal roadmap then this highlights one of the main problems
with reactos. Everyone works as an individual with no team spirit and most
people work on things which are at best unimportant and at worst completely
useless to the v1.0 goal.

If it's a team roadmap then aren't they supposed to be discussed and agreed
upon as a team instead of dictated?

Ged.


-----Original Message-----
From: ros-dev-bounces(a)reactos.org [mailto:[e-mail]] On
Behalf Of Aleksey Bragin
Sent: 08 April 2010 13:54
To: ReactOS Development List
Subject: [ros-dev] Roadmap I'm sticking to

	Hello,
yesterday we had a usual rant in #reactos-dev regarding organization,  
teaming and development issues, and I explained how I see it. I think  
explaining and discussing here would be beneficial.

I won't spend your time explaining how I came to this roadmap, I will  
go right to it. This roadmap is mainly usage-oriented and doesn't  
cover the kernel (it has its own one).

* Finish wine-based subsystem ("arwinss"), fixing all internal  
(absent in Wine and/or trunk) bugs.
Milestone 1: user32 and gdi32 known to work and support at least all  
the apps listed in the Wine app compat database.
* Test as many as possible apps known to work in Wine and determine  
those which fail.
* Fix failing components (kernel32, ntdll, kernel, CSR, non-synced  
DLLs, etc).
Milestone 2: ReactOS supporting quite wide amount of applications,  
including major apps like MS Office suites, Open Office, CAD systems,  
Adobe products.
Decision point: Because other Win32 components are proven to work, NT- 
alike user32, gdi32 and win32k development may be boosted, testing  
simplified.
* Implement filesystem drivers, using fastfat_new as a universal  
skeleton for FS drivers. Use ntfs3g library and that skeleton to  
develop an NTFS IFS driver.
Milestone 3: ReactOS with NTFS support (quite important for end  
users, thus separated into a standalone milestone).
* Total rewrite of networking, using NT's one as a model.
Milestone 4: ReactOS with a rock-stable networking. Ability to host  
database servers, web and FTP servers.
* Release 1.0 and profit ;)


So that's what I'm sticking to so far. I don't expect everyone to  
agree, but if more people are involved, achieving these milestones  
will happen faster. Also, they don't really have to go in a sequence,  
all of that may be done simulteneously (e.g. filesystem drivers must  
be developed against Windows 2003; kernel32 and ntdll could be fixed  
first using winetests without waiting for arwinss to be complete;  
networking could be again tested in existing ReactOS and Windows).

Comments, improvements are welcome.

WBR,
Aleksey Bragin.

_______________________________________________
Ros-dev mailing list
Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev

[Aleksey Bragin]

As the message says, it's the one I used for directing my own work  
(even the message subject says so!).

I wanted to sum it up and present for discussion for a long time, and  
yesterday's talk gave a nice reason. If more people agree with this  
plan, then it has a chance of becoming one of the project's roadmaps  
for, let's say, "usability" component of the OS. And of course, be  
completed much quicker rather than if I work alone and other would be  
adding new, minor, untested and unnecessary code (no personal  
offense, just a common example).

WBR,
Aleksey.



On Apr 8, 2010, at 5:03 PM, Ged Murphy wrote:

>   I'm confused. Is this your personal roadmap or a
> team roadmap?
>
>  If it's a personal roadmap then this highlights one of the main  
>  problems
>  with reactos. Everyone works as an individual with no team spirit  
>  and most
>  people work on things which are at best unimportant and at worst  
>  completely
>  useless to the v1.0 goal.
>
>  If it's a team roadmap then aren't they supposed to be discussed  
>  and agreed
>  upon as a team instead of dictated?
>
>  Ged.
>
>
>  -----Original Message-----
>  From: ros-dev-bounces(a)reactos.org [mailto:ros-dev- 
>  bounces(a)reactos.org] On
>  Behalf Of Aleksey Bragin
>  Sent: 08 April 2010 13:54
>  To: ReactOS Development List
>  Subject: [ros-dev] Roadmap I'm sticking to
>
>  	Hello,
>  yesterday we had a usual rant in #reactos-dev regarding organization,
>  teaming and development issues, and I explained how I see it. I think
>  explaining and discussing here would be beneficial.
>
>  I won't spend your time explaining how I came to this roadmap, I will
>  go right to it. This roadmap is mainly usage-oriented and doesn't
>  cover the kernel (it has its own one).
>
>  * Finish wine-based subsystem ("arwinss"), fixing all internal
>  (absent in Wine and/or trunk) bugs.
>  Milestone 1: user32 and gdi32 known to work and support at least all
>  the apps listed in the Wine app compat database.
>  * Test as many as possible apps known to work in Wine and determine
>  those which fail.
>  * Fix failing components (kernel32, ntdll, kernel, CSR, non-synced
>  DLLs, etc).
>  Milestone 2: ReactOS supporting quite wide amount of applications,
>  including major apps like MS Office suites, Open Office, CAD systems,
>  Adobe products.
>  Decision point: Because other Win32 components are proven to work, NT-
>  alike user32, gdi32 and win32k development may be boosted, testing
>  simplified.
>  * Implement filesystem drivers, using fastfat_new as a universal
>  skeleton for FS drivers. Use ntfs3g library and that skeleton to
>  develop an NTFS IFS driver.
>  Milestone 3: ReactOS with NTFS support (quite important for end
>  users, thus separated into a standalone milestone).
>  * Total rewrite of networking, using NT's one as a model.
>  Milestone 4: ReactOS with a rock-stable networking. Ability to host
>  database servers, web and FTP servers.
>  * Release 1.0 and profit ;)
>
>
>  So that's what I'm sticking to so far. I don't expect everyone to
>  agree, but if more people are involved, achieving these milestones
>  will happen faster. Also, they don't really have to go in a sequence,
>  all of that may be done simulteneously (e.g. filesystem drivers must
>  be developed against Windows 2003; kernel32 and ntdll could be fixed
>  first using winetests without waiting for arwinss to be complete;
>  networking could be again tested in existing ReactOS and Windows).
>
>  Comments, improvements are welcome.
>
>  WBR,
>  Aleksey Bragin.
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  Ros-dev mailing list
>  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
>  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  Ros-dev mailing list
>  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
>  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev

[Gabriel ilardi]

I think all of us should start thinking practical, we need a working OS, not a toy or a
hobby one (if we really want an OS).
I think Aleksey expressed his wish to make a useful OS. The whole team should want a
working OS, or am I missing something here?
I'd like to ask personally James and Timo, and all the rest of the team to help
Aleksey fix the remaining bugs in Arwinss, to at least
have a more 'working' ReactOS, he did a lot of things himself, I can't imagine
what could be done with your help, 
once arwinss is 'stable' you could switch back to win32ros/amd64/etc, if you
wish.
I really like ros and the philosophy behind its goals, I'd like to see it succeed, but
in order to do it we need team work here.
I've just published the latest arwinss iso, and I can tell you this, one person tried
it and he said in the main channel: 
"...yeah...i just play around, but the "real windows" feeling enhanced in
this release strong - this is my opinion"
We need applications to work, if ROS gets useful, it will attract more people, and more
people will attract more publicity and more developers, and this is
the way to go.
Just my two cents.

Gabriel.


>   From: gedmurphy(a)gmail.com
>  To: ros-dev(a)reactos.org
>  Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 14:03:07 +0100
>  Subject: Re: [ros-dev] Roadmap I'm sticking to
>  
>  I'm confused. Is this your personal roadmap or a team roadmap?
>  
>  If it's a personal roadmap then this highlights one of the main problems
>  with reactos. Everyone works as an individual with no team spirit and most
>  people work on things which are at best unimportant and at worst completely
>  useless to the v1.0 goal.
>  
>  If it's a team roadmap then aren't they supposed to be discussed and agreed
>  upon as a team instead of dictated?
>  
>  Ged.
>  
>  
>  -----Original Message-----
>  From: ros-dev-bounces(a)reactos.org [mailto:[e-mail]] On
>  Behalf Of Aleksey Bragin
>  Sent: 08 April 2010 13:54
>  To: ReactOS Development List
>  Subject: [ros-dev] Roadmap I'm sticking to
>  
>  	Hello,
>  yesterday we had a usual rant in #reactos-dev regarding organization,  
>  teaming and development issues, and I explained how I see it. I think  
>  explaining and discussing here would be beneficial.
>  
>  I won't spend your time explaining how I came to this roadmap, I will  
>  go right to it. This roadmap is mainly usage-oriented and doesn't  
>  cover the kernel (it has its own one).
>  
>  * Finish wine-based subsystem ("arwinss"), fixing all internal  
>  (absent in Wine and/or trunk) bugs.
>  Milestone 1: user32 and gdi32 known to work and support at least all  
>  the apps listed in the Wine app compat database.
>  * Test as many as possible apps known to work in Wine and determine  
>  those which fail.
>  * Fix failing components (kernel32, ntdll, kernel, CSR, non-synced  
>  DLLs, etc).
>  Milestone 2: ReactOS supporting quite wide amount of applications,  
>  including major apps like MS Office suites, Open Office, CAD systems,  
>  Adobe products.
>  Decision point: Because other Win32 components are proven to work, NT- 
>  alike user32, gdi32 and win32k development may be boosted, testing  
>  simplified.
>  * Implement filesystem drivers, using fastfat_new as a universal  
>  skeleton for FS drivers. Use ntfs3g library and that skeleton to  
>  develop an NTFS IFS driver.
>  Milestone 3: ReactOS with NTFS support (quite important for end  
>  users, thus separated into a standalone milestone).
>  * Total rewrite of networking, using NT's one as a model.
>  Milestone 4: ReactOS with a rock-stable networking. Ability to host  
>  database servers, web and FTP servers.
>  * Release 1.0 and profit ;)
>  
>  
>  So that's what I'm sticking to so far. I don't expect everyone to  
>  agree, but if more people are involved, achieving these milestones  
>  will happen faster. Also, they don't really have to go in a sequence,  
>  all of that may be done simulteneously (e.g. filesystem drivers must  
>  be developed against Windows 2003; kernel32 and ntdll could be fixed  
>  first using winetests without waiting for arwinss to be complete;  
>  networking could be again tested in existing ReactOS and Windows).
>  
>  Comments, improvements are welcome.
>  
>  WBR,
>  Aleksey Bragin.
>  
>  _______________________________________________
>  Ros-dev mailing list
>  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
>  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>  
>  
>  _______________________________________________
>  Ros-dev mailing list
>  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
>  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev 
 		 	   		  
_________________________________________________________________
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[Timo Kreuzer]

Hi,

Well, my roadmap would look quite different. You said the kernel had
it's own one, but I'm not sure how to divide that.

First I'd like to point out some random things:

* ReactOS isn't usable for *anything* atm. It doesn't matter whether app
x or app y runs, while the whole OS is unstable, not even taskmgr works
properly and everythings is fubar once the system has crashed a single
time, which still happens pretty often.

* I wouldn't mind if most apps crashed with a nice screen telling the
user that he had bad luck and then everything would continue normally.
But instead it's more normal that stuff freezes and the whole OS gets
unusable. Our failure recovery is very bad.

* Our operative range is zero. ReactOS is not usable as a desktop OS,
it's not usable as a server, it's not usable to play games or as a thin
client or even to compile itself. Maybe we should find at least one
thing that reactos can do properly.

* Our development model is based on fun. And it will stay that way. We
all do it for the fun. If there is no fun, we won't be doing it. So
trying to force people doing something is a bad idea. You can only try
to motivate them. (Unless you have a shitload of money to dispense ;-))

* All developers have their own area of expertise / interest. You can
ask me to work on file systems and I might be highly motivated to do so,
but it wouldn't be of any benefit, because I know nothing about file
system drivers.

Now my roadmap would look like this:

1.) Analyze the development process, find flaws and address them,
optimize the process as much as possible. (Builtbot, regtests, branches,
file layout, etc.)

2.) Put some effort into areas that affect the development itself.
(Crashes, freezes, can't kill processes with taskmgr, can't restart
explorer, registry corruption on crashes, failure recovery, debuggers, etc)

3.) Do a "market analysis". What are possible areas of application, what
can we do right now? What's missing exactly? What do "customers" need?

4.) Get a usable release out, even if it's only usable for a very
limited number of applications, but at least works good with those.

You might notice that while the previous roadmap looks like a
5-year-plan, mine has a much shorter time frame.

My 2 cents,
Timo


Aleksey Bragin wrote:
>       Hello,
>  yesterday we had a usual rant in #reactos-dev regarding organization,
>  teaming and development issues, and I explained how I see it. I think
>  explaining and discussing here would be beneficial.
>
>  I won't spend your time explaining how I came to this roadmap, I will
>  go right to it. This roadmap is mainly usage-oriented and doesn't
>  cover the kernel (it has its own one).
>
>  * Finish wine-based subsystem ("arwinss"), fixing all internal (absent
>  in Wine and/or trunk) bugs.
>  Milestone 1: user32 and gdi32 known to work and support at least all
>  the apps listed in the Wine app compat database.
>  * Test as many as possible apps known to work in Wine and determine
>  those which fail.
>  * Fix failing components (kernel32, ntdll, kernel, CSR, non-synced
>  DLLs, etc).
>  Milestone 2: ReactOS supporting quite wide amount of applications,
>  including major apps like MS Office suites, Open Office, CAD systems,
>  Adobe products.
>  Decision point: Because other Win32 components are proven to work,
>  NT-alike user32, gdi32 and win32k development may be boosted, testing
>  simplified.
>  * Implement filesystem drivers, using fastfat_new as a universal
>  skeleton for FS drivers. Use ntfs3g library and that skeleton to
>  develop an NTFS IFS driver.
>  Milestone 3: ReactOS with NTFS support (quite important for end users,
>  thus separated into a standalone milestone).
>  * Total rewrite of networking, using NT's one as a model.
>  Milestone 4: ReactOS with a rock-stable networking. Ability to host
>  database servers, web and FTP servers.
>  * Release 1.0 and profit ;)
>
>
>  So that's what I'm sticking to so far. I don't expect everyone to
>  agree, but if more people are involved, achieving these milestones
>  will happen faster. Also, they don't really have to go in a sequence,
>  all of that may be done simulteneously (e.g. filesystem drivers must
>  be developed against Windows 2003; kernel32 and ntdll could be fixed
>  first using winetests without waiting for arwinss to be complete;
>  networking could be again tested in existing ReactOS and Windows).
>
>  Comments, improvements are welcome.
>
>  WBR,
>  Aleksey Bragin.
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  Ros-dev mailing list
>  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
>  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>

[Alexey Komarov]

What about uniata/scsi, usb drivers and hal?


WBR, Alexey Komarov.

08.04.2010 16:54, Aleksey Bragin пишет:
>   Hello,
>  yesterday we had a usual rant in #reactos-dev regarding organization,
>  teaming and development issues, and I explained how I see it. I think
>  explaining and discussing here would be beneficial.
>
>  I won't spend your time explaining how I came to this roadmap, I will go
>  right to it. This roadmap is mainly usage-oriented and doesn't cover the
>  kernel (it has its own one).
>
>  * Finish wine-based subsystem ("arwinss"), fixing all internal (absent
>  in Wine and/or trunk) bugs.
>  Milestone 1: user32 and gdi32 known to work and support at least all the
>  apps listed in the Wine app compat database.
>  * Test as many as possible apps known to work in Wine and determine
>  those which fail.
>  * Fix failing components (kernel32, ntdll, kernel, CSR, non-synced DLLs,
>  etc).
>  Milestone 2: ReactOS supporting quite wide amount of applications,
>  including major apps like MS Office suites, Open Office, CAD systems,
>  Adobe products.
>  Decision point: Because other Win32 components are proven to work,
>  NT-alike user32, gdi32 and win32k development may be boosted, testing
>  simplified.
>  * Implement filesystem drivers, using fastfat_new as a universal
>  skeleton for FS drivers. Use ntfs3g library and that skeleton to develop
>  an NTFS IFS driver.
>  Milestone 3: ReactOS with NTFS support (quite important for end users,
>  thus separated into a standalone milestone).
>  * Total rewrite of networking, using NT's one as a model.
>  Milestone 4: ReactOS with a rock-stable networking. Ability to host
>  database servers, web and FTP servers.
>  * Release 1.0 and profit ;)
>
>
>  So that's what I'm sticking to so far. I don't expect everyone to agree,
>  but if more people are involved, achieving these milestones will happen
>  faster. Also, they don't really have to go in a sequence, all of that
>  may be done simulteneously (e.g. filesystem drivers must be developed
>  against Windows 2003; kernel32 and ntdll could be fixed first using
>  winetests without waiting for arwinss to be complete; networking could
>  be again tested in existing ReactOS and Windows).
>
>  Comments, improvements are welcome.
>
>  WBR,
>  Aleksey Bragin.
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  Ros-dev mailing list
>  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
>  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>

[Andrew Faulds]

I think USB comes under working/functional OS. Poeple need to be able
to transfer files in and out on USB memory sticks and the like,
actually run it on a PC post-2007 which lacks PS/2 Mouse and Keyboard
ports, connect their WiFi dongle...
Oh and I think uniata is very important. It'd help if you could
actually INSTALL the OS in the first place on recent PCs.
On 8 April 2010 16:10, Alexey Komarov <q4a(a)bk.ru> wrote:
>  
>  What about uniata/scsi, usb drivers and hal?
>
>
>  WBR, Alexey Komarov.
>
>  08.04.2010 16:54, Aleksey Bragin пишет:
> >  
> >  Hello,
> >  yesterday we had a usual rant in #reactos-dev regarding organization,
> >  teaming and development issues, and I explained how I see it. I think
> >  explaining and discussing here would be beneficial.
> >
> >  I won't spend your time explaining how I came to this roadmap, I will go
> >  right to it. This roadmap is mainly usage-oriented and doesn't cover the
> >  kernel (it has its own one).
> >
> >  * Finish wine-based subsystem ("arwinss"), fixing all internal (absent
> >  in Wine and/or trunk) bugs.
> >  Milestone 1: user32 and gdi32 known to work and support at least all the
> >  apps listed in the Wine app compat database.
> >  * Test as many as possible apps known to work in Wine and determine
> >  those which fail.
> >  * Fix failing components (kernel32, ntdll, kernel, CSR, non-synced DLLs,
> >  etc).
> >  Milestone 2: ReactOS supporting quite wide amount of applications,
> >  including major apps like MS Office suites, Open Office, CAD systems,
> >  Adobe products.
> >  Decision point: Because other Win32 components are proven to work,
> >  NT-alike user32, gdi32 and win32k development may be boosted, testing
> >  simplified.
> >  * Implement filesystem drivers, using fastfat_new as a universal
> >  skeleton for FS drivers. Use ntfs3g library and that skeleton to develop
> >  an NTFS IFS driver.
> >  Milestone 3: ReactOS with NTFS support (quite important for end users,
> >  thus separated into a standalone milestone).
> >  * Total rewrite of networking, using NT's one as a model.
> >  Milestone 4: ReactOS with a rock-stable networking. Ability to host
> >  database servers, web and FTP servers.
> >  * Release 1.0 and profit ;)
> >
> >
> >  So that's what I'm sticking to so far. I don't expect everyone to agree,
> >  but if more people are involved, achieving these milestones will happen
> >  faster. Also, they don't really have to go in a sequence, all of that
> >  may be done simulteneously (e.g. filesystem drivers must be developed
> >  against Windows 2003; kernel32 and ntdll could be fixed first using
> >  winetests without waiting for arwinss to be complete; networking could
> >  be again tested in existing ReactOS and Windows).
> >
> >  Comments, improvements are welcome.
> >
> >  WBR,
> >  Aleksey Bragin.
> >
> >  _______________________________________________
> >  Ros-dev mailing list
> >  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
> >  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> >  
>  _______________________________________________
>  Ros-dev mailing list
>  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
>  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev 


-- 
Andrew Faulds (andrewros)
http://ajf.me/