July Meeting Minutes

[Colin Finck]

Hello all,

Today's planned meeting has been postponed to the 25th August (the time 
of the next regular meeting) based on a voting of the participants 
present at 19:39 UTC. These were:
   * Giannis Adamopoulos
   * Javier Agustìn Fernàndez Arroyo
   * Maciej Bialas
   * Thomas Faber
   * Colin Finck
   * Ziliang Guo
   * Cameron Gutman
   * Rafal Harabien
   * Timo Kreuzer
   * Matthias Kupfer
   * Igor Paliychuk
   * Sylvain Petreolle
   * Daniel Reimer
   * Pierre Schweitzer
   * Samuel Serapion
   * Olaf Siejka

○ Result:

[19:44] <VoteBot> Question: Please vote for a date for postponing
                     this meeting.
   [19:44] <VoteBot> Answers:
   [19:44] <VoteBot>    Abstention - 7 votes
   [19:44] <VoteBot>    11th August (in 2 weeks) - 3 votes
   [19:44] <VoteBot>    25th August (in 4 weeks, regular next meeting) -
                        6 votes
   [19:44] <VoteBot> Total number of votes: 16

○ Main reasons were that the following people were still not present
   at the time of voting:
     * Aleksey Bragin (supposed meeting leader and key person in the
       Arwinss and Release preparation agenda points)
     * Amine Khaldi (supposed backup meeting leader and key person in the
       CMake agenda point)
     * Ged Murphy (key person in the GSoC and Driver Signing agenda
       points)

○ Unfortunately, nobody has been prepared for this kind of situation,
   so a lot of time has been wasted and confusing decisions might have
   been made.

○ Postponing the points also gives Aleksey time to prepare a new
   Arwinss build and the Build Environment guys (Daniel, me, anybody
   wants to join?) time to prepare a final CMake version of RosBE, which
   might be a factor when deciding about doing the migration to CMake.

○ The IRC Server has been closed at 20:03 UTC.

To allow the participants to get an unbiased idea about today's meeting, 
I will post the original IRC log by the server to ros-priv. Would 
actually like to make it public on ros-dev as well, but will abstain 
from doing so until Ged's confusion about the openness of our meetings 
is cleared.

If people have already prepared texts for this meeting (status updates, 
whatever else you wanted to say), please send them to my E-Mail address 
within the next 3 days and I'll compose a summary out of them, which I 
will send to ros-dev.
If you think that these texts don't just deserve a simple summary, keep 
them for the next meeting or do whatever you want about them.

And finally a personal note: Please keep in mind that it was not an easy 
decision for me to just close the IRC Server after I believed that main 
discussions were over. If I had left it running, it would have 
invalidated the voting (again) and participants would have treated the 
meeting even more as a joke. By closing it, I obviously received 
complaints from people who had prepared stuff for this meeting and 
wanted to revive it.

In good hopes,

Colin

[Ged Murphy]

It's sad to hear that the meeting didn't work out and I apologise if my not attending played a part in that.

My reasons for not attending mainly 2 fold:

I'm not happy with the public nature in which the meetings are held. Internal meetings are an internal matter and should be held 'offline'.
To this point, the  main issue I wanted to discuss was sensitive and involved not just reactos' internal operations, but that of other projects too.
Therefore, as I said in my previous email, the driver signing issue was no longer on the agenda.

Secondly, the meetings seem to have turned into a bit of a joke, for want of a better word.
It's basically #reactos-dev with a voting feature. It takes far too long and gets very little done.
The only interesting part for me is the GSoC updates, but this is something that can (and probably should) be shared on the ros-dev mailing list anyway.
If anyone is truly interested in the cool stuff our GSoC guys are working on, all they need to do is ask, they're all in IRC pretty much 24/7 anyway.

I therefore deemed the meeting rather pointless, and I'm a little busy with my own work to sit in IRC for 3-4 hours watching streams of text flow up the screen.

Ged.

-----Original Message-----
From: [e-mail] [mailto:[e-mail]] On Behalf Of Colin Finck
Sent: 28 July 2011 22:16
To: ReactOS Development List
Subject: [ros-dev] July Meeting Minutes

Hello all,

Today's planned meeting has been postponed to the 25th August (the time of the next regular meeting) based on a voting of the participants present at 19:39 UTC. These were:
   * Giannis Adamopoulos
   * Javier Agustìn Fernàndez Arroyo
   * Maciej Bialas
   * Thomas Faber
   * Colin Finck
   * Ziliang Guo
   * Cameron Gutman
   * Rafal Harabien
   * Timo Kreuzer
   * Matthias Kupfer
   * Igor Paliychuk
   * Sylvain Petreolle
   * Daniel Reimer
   * Pierre Schweitzer
   * Samuel Serapion
   * Olaf Siejka

○ Result:

[19:44] <VoteBot> Question: Please vote for a date for postponing
                     this meeting.
   [19:44] <VoteBot> Answers:
   [19:44] <VoteBot>    Abstention - 7 votes
   [19:44] <VoteBot>    11th August (in 2 weeks) - 3 votes
   [19:44] <VoteBot>    25th August (in 4 weeks, regular next meeting) -
                        6 votes
   [19:44] <VoteBot> Total number of votes: 16

○ Main reasons were that the following people were still not present
   at the time of voting:
     * Aleksey Bragin (supposed meeting leader and key person in the
       Arwinss and Release preparation agenda points)
     * Amine Khaldi (supposed backup meeting leader and key person in the
       CMake agenda point)
     * Ged Murphy (key person in the GSoC and Driver Signing agenda
       points)

○ Unfortunately, nobody has been prepared for this kind of situation,
   so a lot of time has been wasted and confusing decisions might have
   been made.

○ Postponing the points also gives Aleksey time to prepare a new
   Arwinss build and the Build Environment guys (Daniel, me, anybody
   wants to join?) time to prepare a final CMake version of RosBE, which
   might be a factor when deciding about doing the migration to CMake.

○ The IRC Server has been closed at 20:03 UTC.

To allow the participants to get an unbiased idea about today's meeting, I will post the original IRC log by the server to ros-priv. Would actually like to make it public on ros-dev as well, but will abstain from doing so until Ged's confusion about the openness of our meetings is cleared.

If people have already prepared texts for this meeting (status updates, whatever else you wanted to say), please send them to my E-Mail address within the next 3 days and I'll compose a summary out of them, which I will send to ros-dev.
If you think that these texts don't just deserve a simple summary, keep them for the next meeting or do whatever you want about them.

And finally a personal note: Please keep in mind that it was not an easy decision for me to just close the IRC Server after I believed that main discussions were over. If I had left it running, it would have invalidated the voting (again) and participants would have treated the meeting even more as a joke. By closing it, I obviously received complaints from people who had prepared stuff for this meeting and wanted to revive it.

In good hopes,

Colin

_______________________________________________
Ros-dev mailing list
[e-mail]
http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev

The presence should be counted at the start of the meeting, with up to 10 minutes for delays. After that, the quorum should be counted by the number of participants who have shown up at the meeting.

Repeating the vote once or twice just because bunch of people had joined like 40-50 minutes late is simply unacceptable.

On Fri, 29 Jul 2011 09:14 +0100, "Ged Murphy" [e-mail] wrote:
> It's sad to hear that the meeting didn't work out and I apologise if my
> not attending played a part in that.
>
> My reasons for not attending mainly 2 fold:
>
> I'm not happy with the public nature in which the meetings are held.
> Internal meetings are an internal matter and should be held 'offline'.
> To this point, the  main issue I wanted to discuss was sensitive and
> involved not just reactos' internal operations, but that of other
> projects too.
> Therefore, as I said in my previous email, the driver signing issue was
> no longer on the agenda.
>
> Secondly, the meetings seem to have turned into a bit of a joke, for want
> of a better word.
> It's basically #reactos-dev with a voting feature. It takes far too long
> and gets very little done.
> The only interesting part for me is the GSoC updates, but this is
> something that can (and probably should) be shared on the ros-dev mailing
> list anyway.
> If anyone is truly interested in the cool stuff our GSoC guys are working
> on, all they need to do is ask, they're all in IRC pretty much 24/7
> anyway.
>
> I therefore deemed the meeting rather pointless, and I'm a little busy
> with my own work to sit in IRC for 3-4 hours watching streams of text
> flow up the screen.
>
> Ged.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [e-mail] [mailto:[e-mail]] On
> Behalf Of Colin Finck
> Sent: 28 July 2011 22:16
> To: ReactOS Development List
> Subject: [ros-dev] July Meeting Minutes
>
> Hello all,
>
> Today's planned meeting has been postponed to the 25th August (the time
> of the next regular meeting) based on a voting of the participants
> present at 19:39 UTC. These were:
> Giannis Adamopoulos
> Javier Agustìn Fernàndez Arroyo
> Maciej Bialas
> Thomas Faber
> Colin Finck
> Ziliang Guo
> Cameron Gutman
> Rafal Harabien
> Timo Kreuzer
> Matthias Kupfer
> Igor Paliychuk
> Sylvain Petreolle
> Daniel Reimer
> Pierre Schweitzer
> Samuel Serapion
> Olaf Siejka
>
> ○ Result:
>
> [19:44] <VoteBot> Question: Please vote for a date for postponing
>                      this meeting.
>    [19:44] <VoteBot> Answers:
>    [19:44] <VoteBot>    Abstention - 7 votes
>    [19:44] <VoteBot>    11th August (in 2 weeks) - 3 votes
>    [19:44] <VoteBot>    25th August (in 4 weeks, regular next meeting) -
>                         6 votes
>    [19:44] <VoteBot> Total number of votes: 16
>
> ○ Main reasons were that the following people were still not present
>    at the time of voting:
>      * Aleksey Bragin (supposed meeting leader and key person in the
>        Arwinss and Release preparation agenda points)
>      * Amine Khaldi (supposed backup meeting leader and key person in the
>        CMake agenda point)
>      * Ged Murphy (key person in the GSoC and Driver Signing agenda
>        points)
>
> ○ Unfortunately, nobody has been prepared for this kind of situation,
>    so a lot of time has been wasted and confusing decisions might have
>    been made.
>
> ○ Postponing the points also gives Aleksey time to prepare a new
>    Arwinss build and the Build Environment guys (Daniel, me, anybody
>    wants to join?) time to prepare a final CMake version of RosBE, which
>    might be a factor when deciding about doing the migration to CMake.
>
> ○ The IRC Server has been closed at 20:03 UTC.
>
> To allow the participants to get an unbiased idea about today's meeting,
> I will post the original IRC log by the server to ros-priv. Would
> actually like to make it public on ros-dev as well, but will abstain from
> doing so until Ged's confusion about the openness of our meetings is
> cleared.
>
> If people have already prepared texts for this meeting (status updates,
> whatever else you wanted to say), please send them to my E-Mail address
> within the next 3 days and I'll compose a summary out of them, which I
> will send to ros-dev.
> If you think that these texts don't just deserve a simple summary, keep
> them for the next meeting or do whatever you want about them.
>
> And finally a personal note: Please keep in mind that it was not an easy
> decision for me to just close the IRC Server after I believed that main
> discussions were over. If I had left it running, it would have
> invalidated the voting (again) and participants would have treated the
> meeting even more as a joke. By closing it, I obviously received
> complaints from people who had prepared stuff for this meeting and wanted
> to revive it.
>
> In good hopes,
>
> Colin
>
> Ros-dev mailing list
> [e-mail]
> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>
> Ros-dev mailing list
> [e-mail]
> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev

With best regards
Caemyr

[Conan Kudo (ニール・ゴンパ)]

If you want private meetings, use teleconferencing. That's not that hard of
a concept, is it? And there definitely needs to be a record of any
"internal" matters. Whether those records are immediately public or not is
up to the leaders of the ReactOS Project. However, I strongly advise against
keeping records permanently sealed private. It's a bad idea for a project
that relies largely on goodwill to survive.

I'm honestly surprised that this is an issue for you all. Even in my own
projects, I log everything, including private conversations. I don't plan on
releasing those logs anytime soon, but if I'm requested to do so, I'll
sanitize any sensitive information out.

And there's no such thing as truly internal matters in a public open source
project, unless they have something to do with the legal side of things. If
it has to do with legal issues, then by all means, use some sort of private
conferencing system. Legal issues are delicate enough as it is without
everyone else chipping in. Of course, I assume that the ReactOS Project
hasn't gotten itself into legal trouble since it moved the Foundation to
Russia...

On Fri, Jul 29, 2011 at 3:14 AM, Ged Murphy
[e-mail]:
> It's sad to hear that the meeting didn't work out and I apologise if my not
> attending played a part in that.
>
> My reasons for not attending mainly 2 fold:
>
> I'm not happy with the public nature in which the meetings are held.
> Internal meetings are an internal matter and should be held 'offline'.
> To this point, the  main issue I wanted to discuss was sensitive and
> involved not just reactos' internal operations, but that of other projects
> too.
> Therefore, as I said in my previous email, the driver signing issue was no
> longer on the agenda.
>
> Secondly, the meetings seem to have turned into a bit of a joke, for want
> of a better word.
> It's basically #reactos-dev with a voting feature. It takes far too long
> and gets very little done.
> The only interesting part for me is the GSoC updates, but this is something
> that can (and probably should) be shared on the ros-dev mailing list anyway.
> If anyone is truly interested in the cool stuff our GSoC guys are working
> on, all they need to do is ask, they're all in IRC pretty much 24/7 anyway.
>
> I therefore deemed the meeting rather pointless, and I'm a little busy with
> my own work to sit in IRC for 3-4 hours watching streams of text flow up the
> screen.
>
> Ged.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [e-mail] [mailto:[e-mail]] On
> Behalf Of Colin Finck
> Sent: 28 July 2011 22:16
> To: ReactOS Development List
> Subject: [ros-dev] July Meeting Minutes
>
> Hello all,
>
> Today's planned meeting has been postponed to the 25th August (the time of
> the next regular meeting) based on a voting of the participants present at
> 19:39 UTC. These were:
> Giannis Adamopoulos
> Javier Agustìn Fernàndez Arroyo
> Maciej Bialas
> Thomas Faber
> Colin Finck
> Ziliang Guo
> Cameron Gutman
> Rafal Harabien
> Timo Kreuzer
> Matthias Kupfer
> Igor Paliychuk
> Sylvain Petreolle
> Daniel Reimer
> Pierre Schweitzer
> Samuel Serapion
> Olaf Siejka
>
> ○ Result:
>
> [19:44] <VoteBot> Question: Please vote for a date for postponing
>                     this meeting.
>   [19:44] <VoteBot> Answers:
>   [19:44] <VoteBot>    Abstention - 7 votes
>   [19:44] <VoteBot>    11th August (in 2 weeks) - 3 votes
>   [19:44] <VoteBot>    25th August (in 4 weeks, regular next meeting) -
>                        6 votes
>   [19:44] <VoteBot> Total number of votes: 16
>
> ○ Main reasons were that the following people were still not present
>   at the time of voting:
>     * Aleksey Bragin (supposed meeting leader and key person in the
>       Arwinss and Release preparation agenda points)
>     * Amine Khaldi (supposed backup meeting leader and key person in the
>       CMake agenda point)
>     * Ged Murphy (key person in the GSoC and Driver Signing agenda
>       points)
>
> ○ Unfortunately, nobody has been prepared for this kind of situation,
>   so a lot of time has been wasted and confusing decisions might have
>   been made.
>
> ○ Postponing the points also gives Aleksey time to prepare a new
>   Arwinss build and the Build Environment guys (Daniel, me, anybody
>   wants to join?) time to prepare a final CMake version of RosBE, which
>   might be a factor when deciding about doing the migration to CMake.
>
> ○ The IRC Server has been closed at 20:03 UTC.
>
> To allow the participants to get an unbiased idea about today's meeting, I
> will post the original IRC log by the server to ros-priv. Would actually
> like to make it public on ros-dev as well, but will abstain from doing so
> until Ged's confusion about the openness of our meetings is cleared.
>
> If people have already prepared texts for this meeting (status updates,
> whatever else you wanted to say), please send them to my E-Mail address
> within the next 3 days and I'll compose a summary out of them, which I will
> send to ros-dev.
> If you think that these texts don't just deserve a simple summary, keep
> them for the next meeting or do whatever you want about them.
>
> And finally a personal note: Please keep in mind that it was not an easy
> decision for me to just close the IRC Server after I believed that main
> discussions were over. If I had left it running, it would have invalidated
> the voting (again) and participants would have treated the meeting even more
> as a joke. By closing it, I obviously received complaints from people who
> had prepared stuff for this meeting and wanted to revive it.
>
> In good hopes,
>
> Colin
>
> Ros-dev mailing list
> [e-mail]
> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>
> Ros-dev mailing list
> [e-mail]
> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev

[Aleksey Bragin]

On Jul 29, 2011, at 1:15 AM, Colin Finck wrote:
> And finally a personal note: Please keep in mind that it was not an  
> easy decision for me to just close the IRC Server after I believed  
> that main discussions were over.

It's sad to hear meeting didn't went good, and that the irc server  
was so unexpectedly closed. Next time if I'm not able to participate,  
I would call for shifting the meeting to another date.

WBR,
Aleksey.