Time has come, a call to developers

[Aleksey Bragin]

	Hello,
this message is inspired by a lot of thinking, and yesterdays talk in  
#reactos, when Magnus Olsen's proposition to add support for more  
than one graphic adapter was a last drop into my cup of tolerancy.

Thus I want to say, one very important idea. But what I want even  
more, for our developers to understand it. The key idea is that our  
work on the project now MUST be aimed at bugfixing, not at adding  
even more nice features. There are already quite enough of them  
(features)!

As I said 1000 times, our general "users" don't care about ability to  
insert 3 graphic cards into their PC, and get ReactOS using them!  
They care about ReactOS crashing after closing regedit. Or during  
Office 2003 installation. And if it continues to crash this way, I'm  
sorry, but noone could feel the pleasure of multiple graphic cards  
support, or any other feature which is useless for 99% of potential  
users.

Moreover, I don't understand why noone ever bothered to work through  
the winetests for reactos-specific parts of the system, like GDI,  
user32/win32k testing, kernel32 testing. There are lots of failures,  
and wine test results show APIs which are used for REAL, and by REAL  
applications, not some historic APIs implemented by Magnus (no  
offence, I'm just using him as an example, please excuse me if I  
sound harsh anywhere) which are unused by any real application nowadays.

I clearly want to stress, that there is a strong misconcept in  
ReactOS way of development of its Win32 subsystem. There were a lot  
of positive events happening (win32k native tests library, great work  
by Timo at fixing various small issues, handles, memory leaks, etc).  
But it must be continued!

Ged Murphy said very right about the problem: small problems prevent  
big apps from working. Wine already supports Office 2003 for years,  
and noone except me was trying to make support it better. The same  
applies to everywhere, there is no need to have some special skills  
to improve ReactOS. You know, there are not that many people who  
*really* worked on win32k in Microsoft, and they obviously can't code  
for us anyway, so everyone had to learn how to develop one or another  
part of the system. Look at Stefan Ginsberg - a guy who didn't know  
anything about C development 3 months ago, but learnt just by reading  
ros-diffs (well, and constant private messaging me in IRC asking  
questions, but that doesn't count), and yesterday spotted a couple of  
important real problems.

Especially that counts for Win32-subsystem (the kernel must stay as  
strict NT-alike as legally possible, so it takes time to read all  
available literature), but for Win32-subsystem, just maintaining its  
code would result in a hundred less crashes now! I don't even say  
about rewriting bad written parts. Or just simply, very-very simply,  
syncing Wine's changes back into ReactOS!

But nobody cares to do that.

I especially delay the 0.3.5 release, because I want people to  
concentrate more on bugfixes. We could easily release in the  
beginning of may, there are enough of good changes for a usual  
reactos release. But I want this particular release to be *unusual*.

If ReactOS wants to hit beta this year, developers must concentrate  
on a boring work first, believe me, there will be lots more fun when  
amount of people trying out reactos increases at least 100x.

And if no beta this year, I'm sorry to say, but it may be too late.


Thanks for thorough reading. Comments are welcome.


With the best regards,
Aleksey Bragin.

[Daniel Reimer]

Aleksey Bragin schrieb:
>   	Hello,
>  this message is inspired by a lot of thinking, and yesterdays talk in  
>  #reactos, when Magnus Olsen's proposition to add support for more  
>  than one graphic adapter was a last drop into my cup of tolerancy.
>
>  Thus I want to say, one very important idea. But what I want even  
>  more, for our developers to understand it. The key idea is that our  
>  work on the project now MUST be aimed at bugfixing, not at adding  
>  even more nice features. There are already quite enough of them  
>  (features)!
>
>  As I said 1000 times, our general "users" don't care about ability to  
>  insert 3 graphic cards into their PC, and get ReactOS using them!  
>  They care about ReactOS crashing after closing regedit. Or during  
>  Office 2003 installation. And if it continues to crash this way, I'm  
>  sorry, but noone could feel the pleasure of multiple graphic cards  
>  support, or any other feature which is useless for 99% of potential  
>  users.
>
>  Moreover, I don't understand why noone ever bothered to work through  
>  the winetests for reactos-specific parts of the system, like GDI,  
>  user32/win32k testing, kernel32 testing. There are lots of failures,  
>  and wine test results show APIs which are used for REAL, and by REAL  
>  applications, not some historic APIs implemented by Magnus (no  
>  offence, I'm just using him as an example, please excuse me if I  
>  sound harsh anywhere) which are unused by any real application nowadays.
>
>  I clearly want to stress, that there is a strong misconcept in  
>  ReactOS way of development of its Win32 subsystem. There were a lot  
>  of positive events happening (win32k native tests library, great work  
>  by Timo at fixing various small issues, handles, memory leaks, etc).  
>  But it must be continued!
>
>  Ged Murphy said very right about the problem: small problems prevent  
>  big apps from working. Wine already supports Office 2003 for years,  
>  and noone except me was trying to make support it better. The same  
>  applies to everywhere, there is no need to have some special skills  
>  to improve ReactOS. You know, there are not that many people who  
>  *really* worked on win32k in Microsoft, and they obviously can't code  
>  for us anyway, so everyone had to learn how to develop one or another  
>  part of the system. Look at Stefan Ginsberg - a guy who didn't know  
>  anything about C development 3 months ago, but learnt just by reading  
>  ros-diffs (well, and constant private messaging me in IRC asking  
>  questions, but that doesn't count), and yesterday spotted a couple of  
>  important real problems.
>
>  Especially that counts for Win32-subsystem (the kernel must stay as  
>  strict NT-alike as legally possible, so it takes time to read all  
>  available literature), but for Win32-subsystem, just maintaining its  
>  code would result in a hundred less crashes now! I don't even say  
>  about rewriting bad written parts. Or just simply, very-very simply,  
>  syncing Wine's changes back into ReactOS!
>
>  But nobody cares to do that.
>
>  I especially delay the 0.3.5 release, because I want people to  
>  concentrate more on bugfixes. We could easily release in the  
>  beginning of may, there are enough of good changes for a usual  
>  reactos release. But I want this particular release to be *unusual*.
>
>  If ReactOS wants to hit beta this year, developers must concentrate  
>  on a boring work first, believe me, there will be lots more fun when  
>  amount of people trying out reactos increases at least 100x.
>
>  And if no beta this year, I'm sorry to say, but it may be too late.
>
>
>  Thanks for thorough reading. Comments are welcome.
>
>
>  With the best regards,
>  Aleksey Bragin.
>  _______________________________________________
>  Ros-dev mailing list
>  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
>  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>
>
>     
I think concentrating to new Features is a good idea, but as long as 
ReactOS hangs on 2/3 of tries to install it, these should go into some 
branches. As long as ROS is unstable the main concentration should be in 
fixing the bugs which cause the instability. I more than second 
Aleksey's Mail. I got a mail from a guy some minutes ago which clearly 
shows, what ppl want and expect:

Are you a programmer on the ReactOS team? If yes, can you explain why Reactos can not be
run or installed? I keep reading use Vbox, also, is Reactos dos? The most important
question I have is, is the base stable and it's more about getting the apps made for
windows  working on ReactOS? 


I answered him with the same nice argument we all use all the time: Its 
Alpha etcetc blablabla.

[gedmurphy]

Aleksey Bragin wrote:

>   I especially delay the 0.3.5 release, because I want
> people
>  to concentrate more on bugfixes 
>   And if no beta this year, I'm sorry to say, but it
> may be 
>  too late. 
I couldn't agree more.

The development process of ReactOS has always been 'work on whatever you
want', however I don't think this is a viable method any longer.
This method leads people to work on pretty useless stuff, and only partially
finish other stuff.

At this stage, the important stuff is bug fixing important core components.
There's little point in having 5% of directx running if 95% of Windows
applications don't run. It's the core components which 3rd party software
heavily relies on to run. Ignoring these components is damaging to ReactOS
as it will hugely prolong the time span to Beta, and possibly lead to
eventual failure to ever become stable and mainstream,. As Aleksey said, if
people focused in bugfixing and other important stuff, we could hit beta
this year ... I just don't see that happening with the current development
model.

I therefore propose that a tighter leash needs to be kept on development,
and how this should work needs careful consideration.
This doesn't and shouldn't move towards some sort of commercial
dictatorship, but I do think a small amount of fun needs to be traded in for
some proper organization. If the project wants to start becoming serious, it
needs to start acting a little more serious in its development cycle.

One idea I had was to have focus days, whereby a component is chosen, lets
say user32, and everyone spends time bugfixing that. Brownie points are
handed out to the person with the most, or best fix. Another idea to try to
keep the fun is to everyone to pick an application from a list and see who
can get it running first.

However, these are just some fun and game ideas, not to be confused with the
fact that ReactOS needs to start getting tougher and what people should and
shouldn't be working on.
When ReactOS works, the world will adopt it, avenues of work and money will
flow!!

Regards,
Ged.

[Heis Spiter]

Hi,

I mostly agree with the ideas developed in that mail. I've just a problem 
with one of them. Make bugfixing a priority before implementing new features 
is a great idea; it could avoid some really bad releases such as ReactOS 
0.3.4. BUT asking people to learn how some Windows parts works in order to 
fix bugs is a bad idea. In my opinion, fixing bug is easier when the dev 
know code on which he is working especially when it looks like Win32k 
subsystem. Other way, it's easier to implement bug than fixing them...

So, we should focus our work on fixing bugs in branches of the OS we're 
working on usually and not trying to learn how something works to fix bug 
whereas there's a hundred times more skilled developer working on. We should 
keep the "you work on what you like" motto.
I'd like also add something that always made uneasy. I don't know how you, 
others devs, are working, but I really don't understand why build can be 
broken after a patch. It should be tested (so build!) before being 
committed. Committing a patch that broke build shows a lack of tests and 
potentials bugs.

About "And if no beta this year, I'm sorry to say, but it may be too late.",

I'm afraid to say I agree. But we aim to make a WinXP OS like or WinXP is 
about to be retired by Microsoft to leave Vista taking his place. And in my 
opinion, copying  dead OS have no sense. So, indeed, we should hurry, and 
that leads to the last point I wanted to speak about. We don't have enough 
devs. Getting new and skilled ones should be really great for us... That's 
really hard to find!

Anyway, until 0.3.5 comes out, I'll try (as far as I can code) to fix bugs 
I'll find.

Aleksey, do not give up!

Best regards,
P. Schweitzer.

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Aleksey Bragin" <aleksey(a)reactos.org>
Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2008 3:46 PM
To: "ReactOS Development List" <ros-dev(a)reactos.org>
Subject: [ros-dev] Time has come, a call to developers

>   Hello,
>  this message is inspired by a lot of thinking, and yesterdays talk in
>  #reactos, when Magnus Olsen's proposition to add support for more
>  than one graphic adapter was a last drop into my cup of tolerancy.
>
>  Thus I want to say, one very important idea. But what I want even
>  more, for our developers to understand it. The key idea is that our
>  work on the project now MUST be aimed at bugfixing, not at adding
>  even more nice features. There are already quite enough of them
>  (features)!
>
>  As I said 1000 times, our general "users" don't care about ability to
>  insert 3 graphic cards into their PC, and get ReactOS using them!
>  They care about ReactOS crashing after closing regedit. Or during
>  Office 2003 installation. And if it continues to crash this way, I'm
>  sorry, but noone could feel the pleasure of multiple graphic cards
>  support, or any other feature which is useless for 99% of potential
>  users.
>
>  Moreover, I don't understand why noone ever bothered to work through
>  the winetests for reactos-specific parts of the system, like GDI,
>  user32/win32k testing, kernel32 testing. There are lots of failures,
>  and wine test results show APIs which are used for REAL, and by REAL
>  applications, not some historic APIs implemented by Magnus (no
>  offence, I'm just using him as an example, please excuse me if I
>  sound harsh anywhere) which are unused by any real application nowadays.
>
>  I clearly want to stress, that there is a strong misconcept in
>  ReactOS way of development of its Win32 subsystem. There were a lot
>  of positive events happening (win32k native tests library, great work
>  by Timo at fixing various small issues, handles, memory leaks, etc).
>  But it must be continued!
>
>  Ged Murphy said very right about the problem: small problems prevent
>  big apps from working. Wine already supports Office 2003 for years,
>  and noone except me was trying to make support it better. The same
>  applies to everywhere, there is no need to have some special skills
>  to improve ReactOS. You know, there are not that many people who
>  *really* worked on win32k in Microsoft, and they obviously can't code
>  for us anyway, so everyone had to learn how to develop one or another
>  part of the system. Look at Stefan Ginsberg - a guy who didn't know
>  anything about C development 3 months ago, but learnt just by reading
>  ros-diffs (well, and constant private messaging me in IRC asking
>  questions, but that doesn't count), and yesterday spotted a couple of
>  important real problems.
>
>  Especially that counts for Win32-subsystem (the kernel must stay as
>  strict NT-alike as legally possible, so it takes time to read all
>  available literature), but for Win32-subsystem, just maintaining its
>  code would result in a hundred less crashes now! I don't even say
>  about rewriting bad written parts. Or just simply, very-very simply,
>  syncing Wine's changes back into ReactOS!
>
>  But nobody cares to do that.
>
>  I especially delay the 0.3.5 release, because I want people to
>  concentrate more on bugfixes. We could easily release in the
>  beginning of may, there are enough of good changes for a usual
>  reactos release. But I want this particular release to be *unusual*.
>
>  If ReactOS wants to hit beta this year, developers must concentrate
>  on a boring work first, believe me, there will be lots more fun when
>  amount of people trying out reactos increases at least 100x.
>
>  And if no beta this year, I'm sorry to say, but it may be too late.
>
>
>  Thanks for thorough reading. Comments are welcome.
>
>
>  With the best regards,
>  Aleksey Bragin.
>  _______________________________________________
>  Ros-dev mailing list
>  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
>  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>

[gedmurphy]

I don't mean to sound harsh, but any dev should be able to fix bugs in most
parts of the OS without knowing how it works.
This is especially true in usermode, if a dev can't fix usermode bugs, then
they shouldn't have commit access in the first place.

Ged.


-----Original Message-----
From: ros-dev-bounces(a)reactos.org [mailto:[e-mail]] On
Behalf Of Heis Spiter
Sent: 08 May 2008 20:43
To: ReactOS Development List
Subject: Re: [ros-dev] Time has come, a call to developers

Hi,

I mostly agree with the ideas developed in that mail. I've just a problem 
with one of them. Make bugfixing a priority before implementing new features

is a great idea; it could avoid some really bad releases such as ReactOS 
0.3.4. BUT asking people to learn how some Windows parts works in order to 
fix bugs is a bad idea. In my opinion, fixing bug is easier when the dev 
know code on which he is working especially when it looks like Win32k 
subsystem. Other way, it's easier to implement bug than fixing them...

So, we should focus our work on fixing bugs in branches of the OS we're 
working on usually and not trying to learn how something works to fix bug 
whereas there's a hundred times more skilled developer working on. We should

keep the "you work on what you like" motto.
I'd like also add something that always made uneasy. I don't know how you, 
others devs, are working, but I really don't understand why build can be 
broken after a patch. It should be tested (so build!) before being 
committed. Committing a patch that broke build shows a lack of tests and 
potentials bugs.

About "And if no beta this year, I'm sorry to say, but it may be too
late.",

I'm afraid to say I agree. But we aim to make a WinXP OS like or WinXP is 
about to be retired by Microsoft to leave Vista taking his place. And in my 
opinion, copying  dead OS have no sense. So, indeed, we should hurry, and 
that leads to the last point I wanted to speak about. We don't have enough 
devs. Getting new and skilled ones should be really great for us... That's 
really hard to find!

Anyway, until 0.3.5 comes out, I'll try (as far as I can code) to fix bugs 
I'll find.

Aleksey, do not give up!

Best regards,
P. Schweitzer.

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Aleksey Bragin" <aleksey(a)reactos.org>
Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2008 3:46 PM
To: "ReactOS Development List" <ros-dev(a)reactos.org>
Subject: [ros-dev] Time has come, a call to developers

>   Hello,
>  this message is inspired by a lot of thinking, and yesterdays talk in
>  #reactos, when Magnus Olsen's proposition to add support for more
>  than one graphic adapter was a last drop into my cup of tolerancy.
>
>  Thus I want to say, one very important idea. But what I want even
>  more, for our developers to understand it. The key idea is that our
>  work on the project now MUST be aimed at bugfixing, not at adding
>  even more nice features. There are already quite enough of them
>  (features)!
>
>  As I said 1000 times, our general "users" don't care about ability to
>  insert 3 graphic cards into their PC, and get ReactOS using them!
>  They care about ReactOS crashing after closing regedit. Or during
>  Office 2003 installation. And if it continues to crash this way, I'm
>  sorry, but noone could feel the pleasure of multiple graphic cards
>  support, or any other feature which is useless for 99% of potential
>  users.
>
>  Moreover, I don't understand why noone ever bothered to work through
>  the winetests for reactos-specific parts of the system, like GDI,
>  user32/win32k testing, kernel32 testing. There are lots of failures,
>  and wine test results show APIs which are used for REAL, and by REAL
>  applications, not some historic APIs implemented by Magnus (no
>  offence, I'm just using him as an example, please excuse me if I
>  sound harsh anywhere) which are unused by any real application nowadays.
>
>  I clearly want to stress, that there is a strong misconcept in
>  ReactOS way of development of its Win32 subsystem. There were a lot
>  of positive events happening (win32k native tests library, great work
>  by Timo at fixing various small issues, handles, memory leaks, etc).
>  But it must be continued!
>
>  Ged Murphy said very right about the problem: small problems prevent
>  big apps from working. Wine already supports Office 2003 for years,
>  and noone except me was trying to make support it better. The same
>  applies to everywhere, there is no need to have some special skills
>  to improve ReactOS. You know, there are not that many people who
>  *really* worked on win32k in Microsoft, and they obviously can't code
>  for us anyway, so everyone had to learn how to develop one or another
>  part of the system. Look at Stefan Ginsberg - a guy who didn't know
>  anything about C development 3 months ago, but learnt just by reading
>  ros-diffs (well, and constant private messaging me in IRC asking
>  questions, but that doesn't count), and yesterday spotted a couple of
>  important real problems.
>
>  Especially that counts for Win32-subsystem (the kernel must stay as
>  strict NT-alike as legally possible, so it takes time to read all
>  available literature), but for Win32-subsystem, just maintaining its
>  code would result in a hundred less crashes now! I don't even say
>  about rewriting bad written parts. Or just simply, very-very simply,
>  syncing Wine's changes back into ReactOS!
>
>  But nobody cares to do that.
>
>  I especially delay the 0.3.5 release, because I want people to
>  concentrate more on bugfixes. We could easily release in the
>  beginning of may, there are enough of good changes for a usual
>  reactos release. But I want this particular release to be *unusual*.
>
>  If ReactOS wants to hit beta this year, developers must concentrate
>  on a boring work first, believe me, there will be lots more fun when
>  amount of people trying out reactos increases at least 100x.
>
>  And if no beta this year, I'm sorry to say, but it may be too late.
>
>
>  Thanks for thorough reading. Comments are welcome.
>
>
>  With the best regards,
>  Aleksey Bragin.
>  _______________________________________________
>  Ros-dev mailing list
>  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
>  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>   
_______________________________________________
Ros-dev mailing list
Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev

[Aleksey Bragin]

Actually I didn't tell that any housewife could become a president  
(or however the saying tells). I told that in order to try to find  
and fix bugs, nothing extraordinary is needed, except brain and C  
syntax knowledge. Everything else in source code, in open form.
The committer (who already has experience with reactos, by  
definition) reviews such a patch, and notices problems if it improper  
fix.

What Ged said also underlines the idea.

Every part of the OS may have its own complex points, but one must  
not miss the most important thing: you have access to everything.  
ReactOS is made from whatever you checkout as trunk/reactos, and  
there are no hidden, closed parts.

Another example is that many things could have been done and tested  
in Windows when ReactOS was not ready enough yet, but that's another  
story, about the history. But let's talk about the future. The future  
we can change. The history is the history.


WBR,
Aleksey Bragin.


On May 8, 2008, at 11:52 PM, gedmurphy wrote:

>   I don't mean to sound harsh, but any dev should be
> able to fix bugs  
>  in most
>  parts of the OS without knowing how it works.
>  This is especially true in usermode, if a dev can't fix usermode  
>  bugs, then
>  they shouldn't have commit access in the first place.
>
>  Ged.
>
>
>  -----Original Message-----
>  From: ros-dev-bounces(a)reactos.org [mailto:ros-dev- 
>  bounces(a)reactos.org] On
>  Behalf Of Heis Spiter
>  Sent: 08 May 2008 20:43
>  To: ReactOS Development List
>  Subject: Re: [ros-dev] Time has come, a call to developers
>
>  Hi,
>
>  I mostly agree with the ideas developed in that mail. I've just a  
>  problem
>  with one of them. Make bugfixing a priority before implementing new  
>  features
>
>  is a great idea; it could avoid some really bad releases such as  
>  ReactOS
>  0.3.4. BUT asking people to learn how some Windows parts works in  
>  order to
>  fix bugs is a bad idea. In my opinion, fixing bug is easier when  
>  the dev
>  know code on which he is working especially when it looks like Win32k
>  subsystem. Other way, it's easier to implement bug than fixing them...
>
>  So, we should focus our work on fixing bugs in branches of the OS  
>  we're
>  working on usually and not trying to learn how something works to  
>  fix bug
>  whereas there's a hundred times more skilled developer working on.  
>  We should
>
>  keep the "you work on what you like" motto.
>  I'd like also add something that always made uneasy. I don't know  
>  how you,
>  others devs, are working, but I really don't understand why build  
>  can be
>  broken after a patch. It should be tested (so build!) before being
>  committed. Committing a patch that broke build shows a lack of  
>  tests and
>  potentials bugs.
>
>  About "And if no beta this year, I'm sorry to say, but it may be  
>  too late.",
>
>  I'm afraid to say I agree. But we aim to make a WinXP OS like or  
>  WinXP is
>  about to be retired by Microsoft to leave Vista taking his place.  
>  And in my
>  opinion, copying  dead OS have no sense. So, indeed, we should  
>  hurry, and
>  that leads to the last point I wanted to speak about. We don't have  
>  enough
>  devs. Getting new and skilled ones should be really great for us...  
>  That's
>  really hard to find!
>
>  Anyway, until 0.3.5 comes out, I'll try (as far as I can code) to  
>  fix bugs
>  I'll find.
>
>  Aleksey, do not give up!
>
>  Best regards,
>  P. Schweitzer.

[James Tabor]

Hi!

On Thu, May 8, 2008 at 8:46 AM, Aleksey Bragin <aleksey(a)reactos.org> wrote:
>          Hello,
>  this message is inspired by a lot of thinking, and yesterdays talk in
>  #reactos, when Magnus Olsen's proposition to add support for more
>  than one graphic adapter was a last drop into my cup of tolerancy.
>  
Its was a fix idea that would include the addition of support for more
than one display device. Why stop at a NEAR DO WELL fix when it would
fix the rest of the install display device issues. Just one days work,
it would have taken~ Lack of power has issued a HALT instruction
waiting for power on interrupt..

>   Ged Murphy said very right about the problem: small
> problems prevent
>  big apps from working. Wine already supports Office 2003 for years,
>  and noone except me was trying to make support it better. 
Okay,,,,, Hax (wine) aside,,, Can we do this in small testing steps? I
just thought of it, can we download the viewers for Office 2003: Word,
Excel and Office 2007 Powerpoint and test them? I have Office 2003 and
do not have time to fuction with CD issues but instead copy the viewer
Exe install files to the ros  install cd. This would manage the
testing better, if anyone is reading this. After this, we can test the
big one after cleaning up the small ones. I have ID'ed one hax by m$
and it lite my fuse! That noone has brought this up with the USDOJ TC.
If you dont know, Dont ask.

>   With the best regards,
>  Aleksey Bragin. 

Thanks,
James

[Alex Ionescu]

My two cents:

You guys shouldn't even release 0.3.5 until *all* Winetests give the
same results as testing on WinXP/2003.

I've never understood why such critical/useful tests have always been
ignored -- I remember fixing a lot of the ntdll regressions (thousands
of them) and it took me less than a week. Mostly looking at Wine code
and looking for bugs in functions that were being tested.

On Fri, May 9, 2008 at 5:44 AM, James Tabor <jimtabor.rosdev(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>   Hi!
>
>  On Thu, May 8, 2008 at 8:46 AM, Aleksey Bragin <aleksey(a)reactos.org> wrote:
> >          Hello,
> >  this message is inspired by a lot of thinking, and yesterdays talk in
> >  #reactos, when Magnus Olsen's proposition to add support for more
> >  than one graphic adapter was a last drop into my cup of tolerancy.
> >  
>  Its was a fix idea that would include the addition of support for more
>  than one display device. Why stop at a NEAR DO WELL fix when it would
>  fix the rest of the install display device issues. Just one days work,
>  it would have taken~ Lack of power has issued a HALT instruction
>  waiting for power on interrupt..
>
> >   Ged Murphy said very right about the problem:
> > small problems prevent
> >  big apps from working. Wine already supports Office 2003 for years,
> >  and noone except me was trying to make support it better. 
>  Okay,,,,, Hax (wine) aside,,, Can we do this in small testing steps? I
>  just thought of it, can we download the viewers for Office 2003: Word,
>  Excel and Office 2007 Powerpoint and test them? I have Office 2003 and
>  do not have time to fuction with CD issues but instead copy the viewer
>  Exe install files to the ros  install cd. This would manage the
>  testing better, if anyone is reading this. After this, we can test the
>  big one after cleaning up the small ones. I have ID'ed one hax by m$
>  and it lite my fuse! That noone has brought this up with the USDOJ TC.
>  If you dont know, Dont ask.
>
> >   With the best regards,
> >  Aleksey Bragin. 
>
>  Thanks,
>  James
>  _______________________________________________
>  Ros-dev mailing list
>  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
>  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>  


-- 
Best regards,
Alex Ionescu

[James Tabor]

Hi!
Good advice worth more than a few cents!

Wow! I'm still using wine tests for this rewrite. It's hard work and
going over my notes I see the use one test for over a year. Yes that
DCE thing! The way we use it hasn't changed and we still do not pass
all the tests. I haven't over looked anything. I'm still working on
gdi handle management and this will fix the issue but adds more
questions. What is published is not correct based on what is evident
points of discovery.

Thanks,
James

Ref:
http://svn.reactos.org/svn/reactos/trunk/reactos/include/reactos/win32k/ntg…

On Fri, May 9, 2008 at 6:59 PM, Alex Ionescu <ionucu(a)videotron.ca> wrote:
>   My two cents:
>
>  You guys shouldn't even release 0.3.5 until *all* Winetests give the
>  same results as testing on WinXP/2003.
>
>  I've never understood why such critical/useful tests have always been
>  ignored -- I remember fixing a lot of the ntdll regressions (thousands
>  of them) and it took me less than a week. Mostly looking at Wine code
>  and looking for bugs in functions that were being tested.
>

[Magnus Olsen]

Hi
CreateBitmap inside gdi32.dll should not leak any handle now when
you trying create a bitmap with CreateBitmap(0,0,x,x,x);
it is a GetStockObject(21) we getting back with this call
and that mean we do not need delete it etiher, this should
take care of few gdi handle leaks we have with some program
I did implemeted it in win32k now this object it is 1x1 1bpp Bitmap
you getting back. we still have bug on the syscall part for
NtGdiCreateBitmap if I fix thuse bugs we breaking downtotop
bitmap support, it seam something miss use CreateBitmap or
or NtGdiCreateBitmap or IntGdiCreateBitmap in reactos
I was force remove the correct bugfix for IntGdiCreateBitmap
until we figout who does send down negtive with or height
that is forbien todo that in NtGdiCreateBitmap and CreateBitmap
and IntGdiCreateBitmap.



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "James Tabor" <jimtabor.rosdev(a)gmail.com>
To: "ReactOS Development List" <ros-dev(a)reactos.org>
Sent: Saturday, May 10, 2008 9:13 PM
Subject: Re: [ros-dev] Time has come, a call to developers


>   Hi!
>  Good advice worth more than a few cents!
>
>  Wow! I'm still using wine tests for this rewrite. It's hard work and
>  going over my notes I see the use one test for over a year. Yes that
>  DCE thing! The way we use it hasn't changed and we still do not pass
>  all the tests. I haven't over looked anything. I'm still working on
>  gdi handle management and this will fix the issue but adds more
>  questions. What is published is not correct based on what is evident
>  points of discovery.
>
>  Thanks,
>  James
>
>  Ref:
>
> http://svn.reactos.org/svn/reactos/trunk/reactos/include/reactos/win32k/ntg…
>
>  On Fri, May 9, 2008 at 6:59 PM, Alex Ionescu <ionucu(a)videotron.ca> wrote:
> >   My two cents:
> >
> >  You guys shouldn't even release 0.3.5 until *all* Winetests give the
> >  same results as testing on WinXP/2003.
> >
> >  I've never understood why such critical/useful tests have always been
> >  ignored -- I remember fixing a lot of the ntdll regressions (thousands
> >  of them) and it took me less than a week. Mostly looking at Wine code
> >  and looking for bugs in functions that were being tested.
> >  
>  _______________________________________________
>  Ros-dev mailing list
>  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
>  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev

[Steven Edwards]

On Fri, May 9, 2008 at 7:59 PM, Alex Ionescu <ionucu(a)videotron.ca> wrote:
>   You guys shouldn't even release 0.3.5 until *all*
> Winetests give the
>  same results as testing on WinXP/2003. 
Also the Wine developer who works on MSI, James Hawkins has been
busting his chops to make sure all of the Wine tests past on
WinXP/2003. The test suite is getting pretty close, I think the
failure rate is around 10%. If you guys manage to get networking
working on ReactOS for the tests and not have the system crash then
you can even use the latest mingw build of the framework from here

http://www.astro.gla.ac.uk/users/paulm/WRT/CrossBuilt/winetest-latest.exe

And have it report to http://test.winehq.org. The Wine team has not
raised an objection to having ReactOS report there as long as your
reports are clearly marked so they don't get confused with other
platforms.

-- 
Steven Edwards

"There is one thing stronger than all the armies in the world, and
that is an idea whose time has come." - Victor Hugo

[James Tabor]

Hi!

On Thu, May 8, 2008 at 8:46 AM, Aleksey Bragin <aleksey(a)reactos.org> wrote:
>          Hello,
>  They care about ReactOS crashing after closing regedit. Or during
>  Office 2003 installation. And if it continues to crash this way, I'm
>  sorry, but noone could feel the pleasure of multiple graphic cards
>  support, or any other feature which is useless for 99% of potential
>  users.
>  
I've tried to install wdviewer.exe (Word viewer for Office 2003), here
are results.

err:(dll/win32/advapi32/service/sctrl.c:243) CreateFileW() failed (Error 231)
fixme:(dll/win32/comdlg32/filedlg.c:256) Flags 0x00800000 not yet implemented
(subsystems/win32/win32k/ntuser/message.c:1207) Attempted to post
message to window 0x30104 that is being destroyed!
fixme:(dll/win32/imm32/imm.c:802) (-1): stub
fixme:(dll/win32/msxml3/domdoc.c:67) interface
{6d5140c1-7436-11ce-8034-00aa006009fa} not implemented
(subsystems/win32/win32k/ntuser/window.c:1538) FIXME - Parent is HWND_MESSAGE
fixme:(dll/win32/msxml3/domdoc.c:67) interface
{79eac9e4-baf9-11ce-8c82-00aa004ba90b} not implemented
fixme:(dll/win32/rpcrt4/ndr_marshall.c:6456) (301C9A08, 301C9608,
1024, 0x0): stub
err:(dll/win32/advapi32/service/scm.c:1427) ROpenServiceW() failed (Error 1060)
fixme:(dll/win32/rpcrt4/ndr_marshall.c:6456) (301C9A08, 301C9608,
1024, 0x0): stub

pause

fixme:(dll/win32/msxml3/main.c:39)
err:(dll/win32/msi/package.c:830)
(subsystems/win32/win32k/objects/gdiobj.c:721) Attempted to free
global gdi handle 0xb70801d9, caller needs to get ownership first!!!
(subsystems/win32/win32k/objects/gdiobj.c:722) Type = 0xb808,
KernelData = 0x000001CD, ProcessId = 0x00000000
failed to copy package
L"C:\\DOCUME~1\\ADMINI~1.REA\\LOCAL_~1\\Temp\\IXP001.TMP\\WORDVIEW.MSI"
fixme:(dll/win32/msi/database.c:146) open failed r = 80030003 for
L"C:\\DOCUME~1\\ADMINI~1.REA\\LOCAL_~1\\Temp\\IXP001.TMP\\WORDVIEW.MSI"


Hum? It looks to me that wine does not work,,, well look where it
crashed! Are you sure you are talking about cross over and not wine?

[Steven Edwards]

On Sun, May 11, 2008 at 12:22 AM, James Tabor <jimtabor.rosdev(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>   Hum? It looks to me that wine does not work,,, well
> look where it
>  crashed! Are you sure you are talking about cross over and not wine? 
I think it should work, I know several of the viewers can be installed
under stock Wine, there is a tool called winetricks Dan Kegel
publishes to make installing extra Microsoft packages like the viewers
less of a pain, so you might want to check that script and see which
versions work.

-- 
Steven Edwards

"There is one thing stronger than all the armies in the world, and
that is an idea whose time has come." - Victor Hugo

[Aleksey Bragin]

Really it seems to have some error inside RPC (openservice, 1060  
error, etc). Similar to a full MS Office 2003 installation package,  
it behaves similar way.
Then after pause (when it tries to do an RPC connect, but fails at  
last),
>   (subsystems/win32/win32k/objects/gdiobj.c:722) Type =
> 0xb808,
>  KernelData = 0x000001CD, ProcessId = 0x00000000 
our favorite one, with messed up
KernelData pointer (which gets  
filled by something incorrectly, or is not initialized, or whatever).

>   fixme:(dll/win32/msi/database.c:146) open failed r =
> 80030003 for
>  L"C:\\DOCUME~1\\ADMINI~1.REA\\LOCAL_~1\\Temp\\IXP001.TMP\ 
>  \WORDVIEW.MSI" 
this one, 80030003 is STG_E_PATHNOTFOUND, so it couldn't
open this  
file for some reason.

>   Hum? It looks to me that wine does not work,,, well
> look where it
>  crashed! Are you sure you are talking about cross over and not wine? 
It looks to me
that ReactOS doesn't work :-)


WBR,
Aleksey Bragin.

On May 11, 2008, at 8:22 AM, James Tabor wrote:

> Hi!
>
> On Thu, May 8, 2008 at 8:46 AM, Aleksey Bragin  
> <aleksey(a)reactos.org> wrote:
>>        Hello,
>> They care about ReactOS crashing after closing regedit. Or during
>> Office 2003 installation. And if it continues to crash this way, I'm
>> sorry, but noone could feel the pleasure of multiple graphic cards
>> support, or any other feature which is useless for 99% of potential
>> users.
>>
>
> I've tried to install wdviewer.exe (Word viewer for Office 2003), here
> are results.
>
> err:(dll/win32/advapi32/service/sctrl.c:243) CreateFileW() failed  
> (Error 231)
> fixme:(dll/win32/comdlg32/filedlg.c:256) Flags 0x00800000 not yet  
> implemented
> (subsystems/win32/win32k/ntuser/message.c:1207) Attempted to post
> message to window 0x30104 that is being destroyed!
> fixme:(dll/win32/imm32/imm.c:802) (-1): stub
> fixme:(dll/win32/msxml3/domdoc.c:67) interface
> {6d5140c1-7436-11ce-8034-00aa006009fa} not implemented
> (subsystems/win32/win32k/ntuser/window.c:1538) FIXME - Parent is  
> HWND_MESSAGE
> fixme:(dll/win32/msxml3/domdoc.c:67) interface
> {79eac9e4-baf9-11ce-8c82-00aa004ba90b} not implemented
> fixme:(dll/win32/rpcrt4/ndr_marshall.c:6456) (301C9A08, 301C9608,
> 1024, 0x0): stub
> err:(dll/win32/advapi32/service/scm.c:1427) ROpenServiceW() failed  
> (Error 1060)
> fixme:(dll/win32/rpcrt4/ndr_marshall.c:6456) (301C9A08, 301C9608,
> 1024, 0x0): stub
>
> pause
>
> fixme:(dll/win32/msxml3/main.c:39)
> err:(dll/win32/msi/package.c:830)
> (subsystems/win32/win32k/objects/gdiobj.c:721) Attempted to free
> global gdi handle 0xb70801d9, caller needs to get ownership first!!!
>   (subsystems/win32/win32k/objects/gdiobj.c:722) Type =
> 0xb808,
>  KernelData = 0x000001CD, ProcessId = 0x00000000 
> failed to copy package
> L"C:\\DOCUME~1\\ADMINI~1.REA\\LOCAL_~1\\Temp\\IXP001.TMP\ 
> \WORDVIEW.MSI"
>   fixme:(dll/win32/msi/database.c:146) open failed r =
> 80030003 for
>  L"C:\\DOCUME~1\\ADMINI~1.REA\\LOCAL_~1\\Temp\\IXP001.TMP\ 
>  \WORDVIEW.MSI" 
>
>
>   Hum? It looks to me that wine does not work,,, well
> look where it
>  crashed! Are you sure you are talking about cross over and not wine? 
>
_______________________________________________
> Ros-dev mailing list
> Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev

[James Tabor]

Hi!

On Sun, May 11, 2008 at 5:22 AM, Aleksey Bragin <aleksey(a)reactos.org> wrote:
>   Really it seems to have some error inside RPC
> (openservice, 1060
>   error, etc). Similar to a full MS Office 2003 installation package,
>   it behaves similar way.
>   Then after pause (when it tries to do an RPC connect, but fails at
>   last),
>
> >   (subsystems/win32/win32k/objects/gdiobj.c:722)
> > Type = 0xb808,
> >  KernelData = 0x000001CD, ProcessId = 0x00000000 
>   our favorite one, with messed up
> KernelData pointer (which gets
>   filled by something incorrectly, or is not initialized, or whatever).
>  
RPC that's wine right? GDI? Yes, as it seems to be one of the things
I'm working on ATM.

>  
> >   fixme:(dll/win32/msi/database.c:146) open failed
> > r = 80030003 for
> >  L"C:\\DOCUME~1\\ADMINI~1.REA\\LOCAL_~1\\Temp\\IXP001.TMP\
> >  \WORDVIEW.MSI" 
>   this one, 80030003 is STG_E_PATHNOTFOUND, so it couldn't
> open this
>   file for some reason.
>
>
> >   Hum? It looks to me that wine does not work,,,
> > well look where it
> >  crashed! Are you sure you are talking about cross over and not wine? 
>   It looks to
> me that ReactOS doesn't work :-)
>
>
>   WBR,
>   Aleksey Bragin.
>  
Still looks like wine problems, MSI? RPC? Are those both from wine?

Look~! I'm working on this for free and I can think of a nice Alex'ism
but no lets not go there.

8^)