The situation with version 0.4.14

[Victor Perevertkin]

Hello!

It seems for me that it's time to bring up the topic about our RC
version - 0.4.14.

Our current "stable", 0.4.13 was branched on 30 September, 2019
(remember those peacefull pre-COVID times :D)
That's quite some time, but not the main issue I'd like to discuss.

0.4.14 was branched on 24 April, 2020. That's almost a year already.
And we're in a difficult situation here - there are regressions, but
nobody fixed them within this long time.
According to https://reactos.org/wiki/Tests_for_0.4.14, there are 29
unfixed regressions found for this release. I'd like to point out: most
of them are among usermode and non-kernel/driver functionality, and as
our development is mostly focused in the kernel right now, it's
unexpected for them to be fixed unless a volunteer comes up.

A quick reminder. Our "releases" mechanism is useful for finding
regressions in the first place, there is no that much benefit for users
here, because we're still a "deep" alpha. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Joakim made a great job finding all regressions, and this work won't be
lost in any case.

We can't wait forever and I think it's time to resolve this situation
somehow. I see two options:
1. Release 0.4.14 as-is. There were a lot more buggy releases, nobody
dies from this.
2. Skip 0.4.14. This already happened once in the history of the
project - 0.3.2 was skipped. I wasn't around at the time, but I may
guess that reasons were similar to what we have today.
(3.) Fix the bugs quickly. I don't expect this to happen, but who
knows, maybe a volunteer appears :)

Let's vote. This seem to be the only way for us to decide on things.
Votes from the team members will be collected until 1 March.

===

I personally vote for skipping the release. The work on finding
regressions is already done, so the most important part of a release
cycle for us is there (thanks Joakim!)
If we do a release now, all the stuff we were writing in news reports
for the last 6 month would be missing from it. That would cause (as I
think) a lot of confusion to people. Moreover 0.4.14 is not that
featureful release itself (compared to 0.4.13, which brought the new
USB stack)
So I suggest to move on and start checking 0.4.15 for regressions. I
expect quite some of them to appear and we need time for fixing.

Cheers,
Victor

[Dick]

Hi,
as a potential user this project makes me extremely tired. in 2000 or 
something like that i was excited because  afvree windows replacement 
would be there...... it is 221!!! years later and there is...... still 
nothing, jst deep alpha as stated in last email. and 0.14 woudl have even 
regressions for 0.4.13. wouldnt it be more smart to finally build a 
timeline for this all? or to discuss the fact if this project makes any 
sense yet, it seems just a waste of time this way.
when things go on this slow when will reactos 1.0 finally be there? in 
2050? who cna tell if we even run software on a laptop or pc than, if 
there is even a device available on which this will runn at all or if 
there would be one singel user wanting to use something not totlaly 
ai-driven?
reactos was ment as a user-project, like ubuntu for many users as their 
desktop os. now it is just some fun for a few devs resulting in nothing 
usable 
after 20 years. what is the idea behind this? if i was the maintainer of 
this project i would state this:
we can do 2 things: 1. work hard and build version 1.0 in 5 years from now
or 2. stoop this waste of time of running behind the facts and having to 
rebuild it everytime agian because the project goes to slow for hardware 
it is written for to end up in a museum before somethign happens.
as an end-user i am highly disappointed in this project.

[Colin Finck]

This is not the kind of participation that has any place on the mailing 
list of an open-source project.
Unsubscribed and blocked that person.

Colin

Am 09.02.2021 um 17:26 schrieb Dick:
> Hi,
> as a potential user this project makes me extremely tired. in 2000 or 
> something like that i was excited because  afvree windows replacement 
> would be there...... it is 221!!! years later and there is...... still 
> nothing, jst deep alpha as stated in last email. and 0.14 woudl have 
> even regressions for 0.4.13. wouldnt it be more smart to finally build a 
> timeline for this all? or to discuss the fact if this project makes any 
> sense yet, it seems just a waste of time this way.
> when things go on this slow when will reactos 1.0 finally be there? in 
> 2050? who cna tell if we even run software on a laptop or pc than, if 
> there is even a device available on which this will runn at all or if 
> there would be one singel user wanting to use something not totlaly 
> ai-driven?
> reactos was ment as a user-project, like ubuntu for many users as their 
> desktop os. now it is just some fun for a few devs resulting in nothing 
> usable after 20 years. what is the idea behind this? if i was the 
> maintainer of this project i would state this:
> we can do 2 things: 1. work hard and build version 1.0 in 5 years from now
> or 2. stoop this waste of time of running behind the facts and having to 
> rebuild it everytime agian because the project goes to slow for hardware 
> it is written for to end up in a museum before somethign happens.
> as an end-user i am highly disappointed in this project.
>
> Ros-dev mailing list
> [e-mail]
> http://reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev

[Joshua Rice]

Colin, I think he was just living up to his name!

On a more serious and on-topic note…

Releases for ReactOS are, at least at this point in time, much more a publicity and advertising event, rather than an actual usable product. The fact that ReactOS is “deep alpha” means that there shouldn’t be any real expectation that the software is in any state usable, and if you’re planning to use it for any “real” work, frankly, you’re stupid.

As such, I personally believe it’s much more important for publicity, and to keep the project in the public eye, to release “something”. Understandably, many of the recently touted features won’t be available in the 0.4.14 release, but adding a comment in the release notes pointing to nightlies for the latest features isn’t beyond the realms of possibility.

I can understand the idea of skipping the release, and i don’t think it’s particularly a bad idea, if 0.4.15 would be branched simultaneously. As i said before, releases are good for publicity, and it’s very important to have them to keep the project in the public eye. Therefore if it is decided to skip 0.4.14, a 0.4.15 release should be fast-tracked in it’s place.

Therefore, my uneducated and, frankly valueless opinion (given i’m not a dev), is to skip 0.4.14 and branch 0.4.15 almost immediately, or if that’s not feasible, release 0.4.14 as soon as possible.

-Josh Rice

[Javier Agustìn Fernàndez Arroyo]

there have been many fixes recently. But, as i have already said, i see no
point on no releasing a new alpha build. It´s still alpha, not stable.
Crashes and bugs are expected.

On Tue, Feb 9, 2021 at 5:35 PM Colin Finck [e-mail] wrote:
> This is not the kind of participation that has any place on the mailing
> list of an open-source project.
> Unsubscribed and blocked that person.
>
> Colin
>
> Am 09.02.2021 um 17:26 schrieb Dick:
> > Hi,
> > as a potential user this project makes me extremely tired. in 2000 or
> > something like that i was excited because  afvree windows replacement
> > would be there...... it is 221!!! years later and there is...... still
> > nothing, jst deep alpha as stated in last email. and 0.14 woudl have
> > even regressions for 0.4.13. wouldnt it be more smart to finally build a
> > timeline for this all? or to discuss the fact if this project makes any
> > sense yet, it seems just a waste of time this way.
> > when things go on this slow when will reactos 1.0 finally be there? in
> > 2050? who cna tell if we even run software on a laptop or pc than, if
> > there is even a device available on which this will runn at all or if
> > there would be one singel user wanting to use something not totlaly
> > ai-driven?
> > reactos was ment as a user-project, like ubuntu for many users as their
> > desktop os. now it is just some fun for a few devs resulting in nothing
> > usable after 20 years. what is the idea behind this? if i was the
> > maintainer of this project i would state this:
> > we can do 2 things: 1. work hard and build version 1.0 in 5 years from
>
> now
> > or 2. stoop this waste of time of running behind the facts and having to
> > rebuild it everytime agian because the project goes to slow for hardware
> > it is written for to end up in a museum before somethign happens.
> > as an end-user i am highly disappointed in this project.
> >
> > Ros-dev mailing list
> > [e-mail]
> > http://reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>
> Ros-dev mailing list
> [e-mail]
> http://reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev

[Thomas Mueller]

from Colin Finck:
> This is not the kind of participation that has any place on the mailing list
> of an open-source project.
> Unsubscribed and blocked that person.
> Colin
> Am 09.02.2021 um 17:26 schrieb Dick:
> > Hi,
> > as a potential user this project makes me extremely tired. in 2000 or
> > something like that i was excited because  afvree windows replacement
> > would be there...... it is 221!!! years later and there is...... still
> > nothing, jst deep alpha as stated in last email. and 0.14 woudl have even
> > regressions for 0.4.13. wouldnt it be more smart to finally build a
> > timeline for this all? or to discuss the fact if this project makes any
> > sense yet, it seems just a waste of time this way.

First of all, I sent the wrong message a couple times, to ros-general.  Now for the intended message:

I have been idle with ReactOS because of no place to put it, and ReactOS's inability to boot from a USB stick.

I can't install ReactOS on hard drive because of lack of GPT.

I would need to be able to use ROSBE and write the result to a USB stick to boot, but don't think that is workable.

Tom

[Stas'M]

Hello,
> If we do a release now, all the stuff we were writing in news reports
> for the last 6 month would be missing from it. That would cause (as I
> think) a lot of confusion to people.

I think there will be much more confusion if we not release 0.4.14,
because people waited for it so long, and in this case 0.4.13 still
remains the latest release with much more missing stuff.

That said I'd vote for the point 1.
-- 
Stas'M was here


Tuesday, 9 February 2021, 18:48 +03:00 from "Victor Perevertkin" [e-mail]:
> Hello!
> 
> It seems for me that it's time to bring up the topic about our RC
> version - 0.4.14.
> 
> Our current "stable", 0.4.13 was branched on 30 September, 2019
> (remember those peacefull pre-COVID times :D)
> That's quite some time, but not the main issue I'd like to discuss.
> 
> 0.4.14 was branched on 24 April, 2020. That's almost a year already.
> And we're in a difficult situation here - there are regressions, but
> nobody fixed them within this long time.
> According to https://reactos.org/wiki/Tests_for_0.4.14, there are 29
> unfixed regressions found for this release. I'd like to point out: most
> of them are among usermode and non-kernel/driver functionality, and as
> our development is mostly focused in the kernel right now, it's
> unexpected for them to be fixed unless a volunteer comes up.
> 
> A quick reminder. Our "releases" mechanism is useful for finding
> regressions in the first place, there is no that much benefit for users
> here, because we're still a "deep" alpha. Correct me if I'm wrong.
> Joakim made a great job finding all regressions, and this work won't be
> lost in any case.
> 
> We can't wait forever and I think it's time to resolve this situation
> somehow. I see two options:
> 1. Release 0.4.14 as-is. There were a lot more buggy releases, nobody
> dies from this.
> 2. Skip 0.4.14. This already happened once in the history of the
> project - 0.3.2 was skipped. I wasn't around at the time, but I may
> guess that reasons were similar to what we have today.
> (3.) Fix the bugs quickly. I don't expect this to happen, but who
> knows, maybe a volunteer appears :)
> 
> Let's vote. This seem to be the only way for us to decide on things.
> Votes from the team members will be collected until 1 March.
> 
> ===
> 
> I personally vote for skipping the release. The work on finding
> regressions is already done, so the most important part of a release
> cycle for us is there (thanks Joakim!)
> If we do a release now, all the stuff we were writing in news reports
> for the last 6 month would be missing from it. That would cause (as I
> think) a lot of confusion to people. Moreover 0.4.14 is not that
> featureful release itself (compared to 0.4.13, which brought the new
> USB stack)
> So I suggest to move on and start checking 0.4.15 for regressions. I
> expect quite some of them to appear and we need time for fixing.
> 
> 
> Cheers,
> Victor
>

[Hermès BÉLUSCA-MAÏTO]

I would like to just release the 0.4.14, as we already have a ton of release candidates of it on Sourceforge, so that we are done with it now, and then branch 0.4.15 and do the usual regression testing from there.

Regards,
Hermes

-----Original Message-----
From: Ros-dev [e-mail] On Behalf Of Victor Perevertkin
Sent: 9. veljače 2021. 16:47
To: ReactOS Development List [e-mail]
Subject: [ros-dev] The situation with version 0.4.14

Hello!

It seems for me that it's time to bring up the topic about our RC version - 0.4.14.

Our current "stable", 0.4.13 was branched on 30 September, 2019 (remember those peacefull pre-COVID times :D) That's quite some time, but not the main issue I'd like to discuss.

0.4.14 was branched on 24 April, 2020. That's almost a year already.
And we're in a difficult situation here - there are regressions, but nobody fixed them within this long time.
According to https://reactos.org/wiki/Tests_for_0.4.14, there are 29 unfixed regressions found for this release. I'd like to point out: most of them are among usermode and non-kernel/driver functionality, and as our development is mostly focused in the kernel right now, it's unexpected for them to be fixed unless a volunteer comes up.

A quick reminder. Our "releases" mechanism is useful for finding regressions in the first place, there is no that much benefit for users here, because we're still a "deep" alpha. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Joakim made a great job finding all regressions, and this work won't be lost in any case.

We can't wait forever and I think it's time to resolve this situation somehow. I see two options:
1. Release 0.4.14 as-is. There were a lot more buggy releases, nobody dies from this.
2. Skip 0.4.14. This already happened once in the history of the project - 0.3.2 was skipped. I wasn't around at the time, but I may guess that reasons were similar to what we have today.
(3.) Fix the bugs quickly. I don't expect this to happen, but who knows, maybe a volunteer appears :)

Let's vote. This seem to be the only way for us to decide on things.
Votes from the team members will be collected until 1 March.

===

I personally vote for skipping the release. The work on finding regressions is already done, so the most important part of a release cycle for us is there (thanks Joakim!) If we do a release now, all the stuff we were writing in news reports for the last 6 month would be missing from it. That would cause (as I
think) a lot of confusion to people. Moreover 0.4.14 is not that featureful release itself (compared to 0.4.13, which brought the new USB stack) So I suggest to move on and start checking 0.4.15 for regressions. I expect quite some of them to appear and we need time for fixing.

Cheers,
Victor

[M. Ziggyesque]

Suggestion for a fourth alternative, do the release, but split off the 3rd party apps with regressions out of rosapps to roswork or some such, possibly as a separate repository, so the kernel and core apps can be focused on. Someone fixes the regressions and that app can be moved back into the main tree or repo. Can put in the release notes how to access that tree from RosBE for those interested in those apps.
________________________________
From: Ros-dev [e-mail] on behalf of Alexander [e-mail]
Sent: Saturday, February 13, 2021 2:13:03 PM
To: ReactOS Development List [e-mail]
Subject: Re: [ros-dev] The situation with version 0.4.14

I vote for:
1. the immediate release of version 0.4.14 as it is, with the publication of the list of known regressions in the release notes
2. immediate start of preparation of release 0.4.15 just right after the release of 0.4.14

Skipping the release is not a good option as we losing PR occasion.
Regression fixing for 0.4.14 is waste of time and workforce (in case we can not fix regressions immediately)

--
Best regards,
Alexander Rechitskiy
[phone]

09.02.2021, 18:48, "Victor Perevertkin" [e-mail]:

Hello!

It seems for me that it's time to bring up the topic about our RC
version - 0.4.14.

Our current "stable", 0.4.13 was branched on 30 September, 2019
(remember those peacefull pre-COVID times :D)
That's quite some time, but not the main issue I'd like to discuss.

0.4.14 was branched on 24 April, 2020. That's almost a year already.
And we're in a difficult situation here - there are regressions, but
nobody fixed them within this long time.
According to https://reactos.org/wiki/Tests_for_0.4.14https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Freactos.org%2Fwiki%2FTests_for_0.4.14&data=04%7C01%7C%7C1b67421acc4647ee003608d8d0538235%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637488404374119813%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=hGuIjFm0SWyEU1EQcKW3rwW%2BHReUIP42vAip4m3KxWg%3D&reserved=0, there are 29
unfixed regressions found for this release. I'd like to point out: most
of them are among usermode and non-kernel/driver functionality, and as
our development is mostly focused in the kernel right now, it's
unexpected for them to be fixed unless a volunteer comes up.

A quick reminder. Our "releases" mechanism is useful for finding
regressions in the first place, there is no that much benefit for users
here, because we're still a "deep" alpha. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Joakim made a great job finding all regressions, and this work won't be
lost in any case.

We can't wait forever and I think it's time to resolve this situation
somehow. I see two options:
1. Release 0.4.14 as-is. There were a lot more buggy releases, nobody
dies from this.
2. Skip 0.4.14. This already happened once in the history of the
project - 0.3.2 was skipped. I wasn't around at the time, but I may
guess that reasons were similar to what we have today.
(3.) Fix the bugs quickly. I don't expect this to happen, but who
knows, maybe a volunteer appears :)

Let's vote. This seem to be the only way for us to decide on things.
Votes from the team members will be collected until 1 March.

===

I personally vote for skipping the release. The work on finding
regressions is already done, so the most important part of a release
cycle for us is there (thanks Joakim!)
If we do a release now, all the stuff we were writing in news reports
for the last 6 month would be missing from it. That would cause (as I
think) a lot of confusion to people. Moreover 0.4.14 is not that
featureful release itself (compared to 0.4.13, which brought the new
USB stack)
So I suggest to move on and start checking 0.4.15 for regressions. I
expect quite some of them to appear and we need time for fixing.

Cheers,
Victor

,

_______________________________________________
Ros-dev mailing list
[e-mail]:[e-mail]
http://reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-devhttps://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Freactos.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fros-dev&data=04%7C01%7C%7C1b67421acc4647ee003608d8d0538235%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637488404374119813%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=86mocmgm5UVwJY4Mil4MpFVZwsp5Dcrv5gOphn3woh0%3D&reserved=0

--
С наилучшими пожеланиями!

[Colin Finck]

Hey Victor,

Thanks for bringing up that topic again. Indeed, it's really time for 
0.4.14..

I want to get forward with the release, hence I tend to vote for 1.
However, it's also wrong to just ignore Joachim's tremendous work in 
compiling the list of regressions, and his valid concerns.

Which is why I suggest a compromise: Let's come together next weekend 
(20/21 February) and try to kill as many regressions as possible: 
https://reactos.org/wiki/Tests_for_0.4.14#known_unfixed_regressions_in_desce...

It may or may not work, but then we have at least tried everything we 
can as a volunteer-driven open-source project.

Who else is going to join?

Cheers,

Colin

Am 09.02.2021 um 16:47 schrieb Victor Perevertkin:
> Hello!
>
> It seems for me that it's time to bring up the topic about our RC
> version - 0.4.14.
>
> Our current "stable", 0.4.13 was branched on 30 September, 2019
> (remember those peacefull pre-COVID times :D)
> That's quite some time, but not the main issue I'd like to discuss.
>
> 0.4.14 was branched on 24 April, 2020. That's almost a year already.
> And we're in a difficult situation here - there are regressions, but
> nobody fixed them within this long time.
> According to https://reactos.org/wiki/Tests_for_0.4.14, there are 29
> unfixed regressions found for this release. I'd like to point out: most
> of them are among usermode and non-kernel/driver functionality, and as
> our development is mostly focused in the kernel right now, it's
> unexpected for them to be fixed unless a volunteer comes up.
>
> A quick reminder. Our "releases" mechanism is useful for finding
> regressions in the first place, there is no that much benefit for users
> here, because we're still a "deep" alpha. Correct me if I'm wrong.
> Joakim made a great job finding all regressions, and this work won't be
> lost in any case.
>
> We can't wait forever and I think it's time to resolve this situation
> somehow. I see two options:
> Release 0.4.14 as-is. There were a lot more buggy releases, nobody
>
> dies from this.
> 2. Skip 0.4.14. This already happened once in the history of the
> project - 0.3.2 was skipped. I wasn't around at the time, but I may
> guess that reasons were similar to what we have today.
> (3.) Fix the bugs quickly. I don't expect this to happen, but who
> knows, maybe a volunteer appears :)
>
> Let's vote. This seem to be the only way for us to decide on things.
> Votes from the team members will be collected until 1 March.
>
> ===
>
> I personally vote for skipping the release. The work on finding
> regressions is already done, so the most important part of a release
> cycle for us is there (thanks Joakim!)
> If we do a release now, all the stuff we were writing in news reports
> for the last 6 month would be missing from it. That would cause (as I
> think) a lot of confusion to people. Moreover 0.4.14 is not that
> featureful release itself (compared to 0.4.13, which brought the new
> USB stack)
> So I suggest to move on and start checking 0.4.15 for regressions. I
> expect quite some of them to appear and we need time for fixing.
>
> Cheers,
> Victor
>
> Ros-dev mailing list
> [e-mail]
> http://reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev