Hi:
I doubt normal Windows users will be downloading sources of anything ever. BTW is a lot more dificult to set the build environment than to decompress the sources using 7zip. Beleiveme is a real pain to download ROS if you have a dialup connection. Why waste our time when we don't need to. Again if still you consider that a zip distribution should still be available for download why not distribute both zip and 7zip. Is that much space? Or it takes to much time to pack? I would answer no to both questions.
Regards Waldo
-----Original Message----- From: ros-dev-bounces@reactos.com on behalf of Andrew Flynn Sent: Thu 4/14/2005 4:28 AM To: ReactOS Development List Subject: Re: [ros-dev] 7-zip - holy smokes!
I agree with Michael B. 7Zip is superior to ZIP. You have to remember who will be downloading the source, compressed files. Is it going to be standard windows users that use winzip and nothing else? When it comes to mass distribution of images, the iso format seems like a sensible choice, where the setup programs can utilise whatever compression they like. PKZip may be the most popular, but that does not mean that ReactOS files have to use it.
Michael B. Trausch wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: RIPEMD160
Thomas Weidenmueller wrote:
I don't think it's a good choice for our public downloads, the avarage user most likely will not know this format. zip still is THE standard.
True, it is. However, end-users will follow whatever trends are set for them. ZIP got to be big and well-known because of PKZip, honestly.
If 7-Zip is that much better, then I'd say we go for it and put in something like red text above the link to the downloads page that we use 7-Zip.
Or, we could give users their option and offer both. Those concerned about bandwidth would use the 7-Zip version, and those who don't care can go with the other one.
As far as users and .EXE files - End Users download EXE files all of the time. They don't know any better. They see the box in MSIE and go, "Yeah, whatever, it's my computer and I wanna download it," click it away and move on. *shrugs*
That's why I make money outside of my job, cleaning up after people's idiotic mistakes, but that's another story altogether. If we offer them a self-extracting version and a 7-Zip'd version, that'd be even better in terms of download time/bandwidth.
Not to mention, if 7-Zip can be distributed with ReactOS, it's a good way to get it out there. Since it's under LGPL, it'd be something that could even be built into ReactOS in the same way as .ZIP format support is built into more recent versions of Windows (and hopefully, just as easy to disable, because I hate that feature, but plenty of people absolutely love it).
Not only all of that, but since it's a superior compression scheme, it'd be logical to support it and help further it's distribution so that people would use it. People don't just sit down very frequently and go, "Hrm. I think I am going to search out a new way to compress my files," because they figure that compression is compression is compression, and that's all there is to it.
All in all, I think it'd be wise, especially over the long-term, to use and support 7-Zip.
- Mike
Michael B. Trausch fd0man@gmail.com Website: http://fd0man.chadeux.net/ Jabber: mtrausch@jabber.com Phone: +1-(678)-522-7934 FAX (US Only): 1-866-806-4647 =================================================================== Do you have PGP or GPG? Key at pgp.mit.edu, Please Encrypt E-Mail!
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Hi:
This is my first time posting to this list, and I think I have a suggestion that may help: An anaconda like front end to handle installation could incorperate 7zip and create a transparent layer between the installer and the actual data. This layer could uncompress the installation medium depending on the type of compression. A combination of compressions suited toward certain kinds of files would be ideal. The user would never know about or need special tools to install ROS and you could keep the very best compression on the actual medium to save space.
As for the dialup user, a smaller more compact distribution method is obviously going to be needed. Something that combines this 'anaconda-like' installer with an automated compilation system could work. Source compresses much more easily than do binaries and my thought was that perhaps we could compile small utilities on the fly that would normally take 200-300k but in source fit into just 10 to 15k. This is assuming they are not statically linked and ROS provides everything they need at runtime. On a fast machine the average user probably wouldent notice a 3 or 4 second delay for a small utility to compile for the first time upon being run (from a linux perspective they compile very fast.. I'm unsure of ROS and compiling in general).
This whole space saving advantage would be the justification for dialup users to use source over binaries at the expense of some initial slowdown at installation b/c of compiling. This wouldent exist if they were using a broadband connection to use or download ROS.
Also, a self extracting medium could be used with both zip and 7zip incorperated into one another. You use the best method, either zip or 7zip for a file and then archive the whole thing without compression in a larger zip file and then slap an executable in the same directory to handle it (i.e: installer.exe, installer.archive).
My 2 cents, Nick LaRoche
Waldo Alvarez Cañizares wrote:
Hi:
I doubt normal Windows users will be downloading sources of anything ever. BTW is a lot more dificult to set the build environment than to decompress the sources using 7zip. Beleiveme is a real pain to download ROS if you have a dialup connection. Why waste our time when we don't need to. Again if still you consider that a zip distribution should still be available for download why not distribute both zip and 7zip. Is that much space? Or it takes to much time to pack? I would answer no to both questions.
Regards Waldo
-----Original Message----- From: ros-dev-bounces@reactos.com on behalf of Andrew Flynn Sent: Thu 4/14/2005 4:28 AM To: ReactOS Development List Subject: Re: [ros-dev] 7-zip - holy smokes!
I agree with Michael B. 7Zip is superior to ZIP. You have to remember who will be downloading the source, compressed files. Is it going to be standard windows users that use winzip and nothing else? When it comes to mass distribution of images, the iso format seems like a sensible choice, where the setup programs can utilise whatever compression they like. PKZip may be the most popular, but that does not mean that ReactOS files have to use it.
Michael B. Trausch wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: RIPEMD160
Thomas Weidenmueller wrote:
I don't think it's a good choice for our public downloads, the avarage user most likely will not know this format. zip still is THE standard.
True, it is. However, end-users will follow whatever trends are set for them. ZIP got to be big and well-known because of PKZip, honestly.
If 7-Zip is that much better, then I'd say we go for it and put in something like red text above the link to the downloads page that we use 7-Zip.
Or, we could give users their option and offer both. Those concerned about bandwidth would use the 7-Zip version, and those who don't care can go with the other one.
As far as users and .EXE files - End Users download EXE files all of the time. They don't know any better. They see the box in MSIE and go, "Yeah, whatever, it's my computer and I wanna download it," click it away and move on. *shrugs*
That's why I make money outside of my job, cleaning up after people's idiotic mistakes, but that's another story altogether. If we offer them a self-extracting version and a 7-Zip'd version, that'd be even better in terms of download time/bandwidth.
Not to mention, if 7-Zip can be distributed with ReactOS, it's a good way to get it out there. Since it's under LGPL, it'd be something that could even be built into ReactOS in the same way as .ZIP format support is built into more recent versions of Windows (and hopefully, just as easy to disable, because I hate that feature, but plenty of people absolutely love it).
Not only all of that, but since it's a superior compression scheme, it'd be logical to support it and help further it's distribution so that people would use it. People don't just sit down very frequently and go, "Hrm. I think I am going to search out a new way to compress my files," because they figure that compression is compression is compression, and that's all there is to it.
All in all, I think it'd be wise, especially over the long-term, to use and support 7-Zip.
- Mike
Michael B. Trausch fd0man@gmail.com Website: http://fd0man.chadeux.net/ Jabber: mtrausch@jabber.com Phone: +1-(678)-522-7934 FAX (US Only): 1-866-806-4647 =================================================================== Do you have PGP or GPG? Key at pgp.mit.edu, Please Encrypt E-Mail!
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: RIPEMD160
Nicholas LaRoche wrote: | | Hi: | | This is my first time posting to this list, and I think I have a | suggestion that may help: An anaconda like front end to handle | installation could incorperate 7zip and create a transparent layer | between the installer and the actual data. This layer could uncompress | the installation medium depending on the type of compression. A | combination of compressions suited toward certain kinds of files would | be ideal. The user would never know about or need special tools to | install ROS and you could keep the very best compression on the actual | medium to save space. |
While I'm not a dev. on this project, I fail to see the need to disturb the installation envrionment. If a user is going to get ReactOS to replace Windows, then I'd rather see the installer *not* confuse the hell out of them, so to speak. If you go with what is similar to what people have always known as a Windows installer, then they will feel more at-home. 7-Zip could be used to decompress files in "chunks" as they're placed on the user's hard drive, resulting in a smaller size of the installation medium. However...
| | As for the dialup user, a smaller more compact distribution method is | obviously going to be needed. Something that combines this | 'anaconda-like' installer with an automated compilation system could | work. Source compresses much more easily than do binaries and my thought | was that perhaps we could compile small utilities on the fly that would | normally take 200-300k but in source fit into just 10 to 15k. This is | assuming they are not statically linked and ROS provides everything they | need at runtime. On a fast machine the average user probably wouldent | notice a 3 or 4 second delay for a small utility to compile for the | first time upon being run (from a linux perspective they compile very | fast.. I'm unsure of ROS and compiling in general). |
Why? Why would you compile things on the user's machine? If you want the "Gentoo" for React, perhaps, but otherwise, I'd think not. What about someone who's (finally) able to use their Pentium 200 MHz again?
You'd be waiting for next Christmas, more then likely. That wouldn't be an option, either. When ReactOS becomes usable and marketable, I'm sure someone out there will pick it up, package it, and redistribute it. Users on a dial-up connection can go to their local store and pick up the newest, most reliable, and secure, version of a clone of Windows, and it will be compatible with what they have on their system. Best of all, if they like it so much, they can copy the CD and pass it on to their friends.
Or, maybe said redistributor would be smart and include extra GNU/GPL software on their disc. ReactOS, OpenOffice 2.0 (or whatever is current at the time), Mozilla, and so forth.
| | This whole space saving advantage would be the justification for dialup | users to use source over binaries at the expense of some initial | slowdown at installation b/c of compiling. This wouldent exist if they | were using a broadband connection to use or download ROS. |
They could also get a CD from a friend that isn't using Dialup. It's not like this is proprietary software. They have the freedom to pass it along on a CD.
| | Also, a self extracting medium could be used with both zip and 7zip | incorperated into one another. You use the best method, either zip or | 7zip for a file and then archive the whole thing without compression in | a larger zip file and then slap an executable in the same directory to | handle it (i.e: installer.exe, installer.archive). |
I don't understand this. It would add (very little, but still) overhead to the process. Why would you want to wrap everything up? You can just package the files and have the installer know how to handle the format. ~ Right now, Windows has support for compressed cabinets and such directly in the operating system's API. ROS could in theory add an API interface for handling of 7z-formatted files. They need to do this with cabinets already for compatibility purposes, I would think they would be able to use even the same call and have it "auto-detect" which archive format it would be handling.
| | My 2 cents, | Nick LaRoche |
All in all, if we were talking about any one of my customers, I would rather be able to just hand them a CD and never again need to worry about licensing issues when a user says that they want a copy of Windows 2000 and I can't find it anywhere, which may well be the case in another year or so. By then, XP will (most likely) be obsolete, and Longhorn will have made it's public debut, if you can keep to what MS says about it. In short, I'd rather hand them open-source software, that I know that they can use and copy, and explain to them what the difference is, then hand them a licensed version of something and then go on my way, knowing that they'll probably copy it and violate it's license agreement (even though they've been told that they can't do that).
Regards, Mike
- -- Michael B. Trausch fd0man@gmail.com Website: http://fd0man.chadeux.net/ Jabber: mtrausch@jabber.com Phone: +1-(678)-522-7934 FAX (US Only): 1-866-806-4647 =================================================================== Do you have PGP or GPG? Key at pgp.mit.edu, Please Encrypt E-Mail!
This topic seems to be rather popular. But if you look at the relations of files size, this seems natural.
Waldo has absolutely right, in my eyes. Setting up a build environment is as 10 times more difficult than installing 7zip. So at least the src-distr. isn't required any more as zip (since src needs buildenv). So I as the one who packs and uploads the stuff decided, that the src-package will only be distributed as .7z rather than .zip. For the other packages (esp. qemu) I don't know. I think that will have both. At least for my part I am a canny guy. And if I can save bits/s and MB on sf.net's and other's hard disks, I think that's good. So I would save these bits. HDs are cheap but what tells us to be dissipative. So I rather invest some CPU cycles to save many MB(/s).
Other opinion? Let's read it.
Waldo Alvarez Cañizares wrote:
Hi:
I doubt normal Windows users will be downloading sources of anything ever. BTW is a lot more dificult to set the build environment than to decompress the sources using 7zip. Beleiveme is a real pain to download ROS if you have a dialup connection. Why waste our time when we don't need to. Again if still you consider that a zip distribution should still be available for download why not distribute both zip and 7zip. Is that much space? Or it takes to much time to pack? I would answer no to both questions.
Regards Waldo
-----Original Message----- From: ros-dev-bounces@reactos.com on behalf of Andrew Flynn Sent: Thu 4/14/2005 4:28 AM To: ReactOS Development List Subject: Re: [ros-dev] 7-zip - holy smokes!
I agree with Michael B. 7Zip is superior to ZIP. You have to remember who will be downloading the source, compressed files. Is it going to be standard windows users that use winzip and nothing else? When it comes to mass distribution of images, the iso format seems like a sensible choice, where the setup programs can utilise whatever compression they like. PKZip may be the most popular, but that does not mean that ReactOS files have to use it.
Michael B. Trausch wrote:
Thomas Weidenmueller wrote:
I don't think it's a good choice for our public downloads, the avarage user most likely will not know this format. zip still is THE standard.
True, it is. However, end-users will follow whatever trends are set for them. ZIP got to be big and well-known because of PKZip, honestly.
If 7-Zip is that much better, then I'd say we go for it and put in something like red text above the link to the downloads page that we use 7-Zip.
Or, we could give users their option and offer both. Those concerned about bandwidth would use the 7-Zip version, and those who don't care can go with the other one.
As far as users and .EXE files - End Users download EXE files all of the time. They don't know any better. They see the box in MSIE and go, "Yeah, whatever, it's my computer and I wanna download it," click it away and move on. *shrugs*
That's why I make money outside of my job, cleaning up after people's idiotic mistakes, but that's another story altogether. If we offer them a self-extracting version and a 7-Zip'd version, that'd be even better in terms of download time/bandwidth.
Not to mention, if 7-Zip can be distributed with ReactOS, it's a good way to get it out there. Since it's under LGPL, it'd be something that could even be built into ReactOS in the same way as .ZIP format support is built into more recent versions of Windows (and hopefully, just as easy to disable, because I hate that feature, but plenty of people absolutely love it).
Not only all of that, but since it's a superior compression scheme, it'd be logical to support it and help further it's distribution so that people would use it. People don't just sit down very frequently and go, "Hrm. I think I am going to search out a new way to compress my files," because they figure that compression is compression is compression, and that's all there is to it.
All in all, I think it'd be wise, especially over the long-term, to use and support 7-Zip.
- Mike
-- Michael B. Trausch fd0man@gmail.com Website: http://fd0man.chadeux.net/ Jabber: mtrausch@jabber.com Phone: +1-(678)-522-7934 FAX (US Only): 1-866-806-4647 =================================================================== Do you have PGP or GPG? Key at pgp.mit.edu, Please Encrypt E-Mail!
_______________________________________________ Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.com http://reactos.com:8080/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
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The NSIS installer system supports the 7-Zip algorithm (LZMA) and has an overhead of 30-50kB. So that would be another option.
Cheers,
Oliver
This topic seems to be rather popular. But if you look at the relations of files size, this seems natural.
Waldo has absolutely right, in my eyes. Setting up a build environment is as 10 times more difficult than installing 7zip. So at least the src-distr. isn't required any more as zip (since src needs buildenv). So I as the one who packs and uploads the stuff decided, that the src-package will only be distributed as .7z rather than .zip. For the other packages (esp. qemu) I don't know. I think that will have both. At least for my part I am a canny guy. And if I can save bits/s and MB on sf.net's and other's hard disks, I think that's good. So I would save these bits. HDs are cheap but what tells us to be dissipative. So I rather invest some CPU cycles to save many MB(/s).
Other opinion? Let's read it.
Waldo Alvarez Cañizares wrote:
Hi:
I doubt normal Windows users will be downloading sources of anything ever. BTW is a lot more dificult to set the build environment than to decompress the sources using 7zip. Beleiveme is a real pain to download ROS if you have a dialup connection. Why waste our time when we don't need to. Again if still you consider that a zip distribution should still be available for download why not distribute both zip and 7zip. Is that much space? Or it takes to much time to pack? I would answer no to both questions.
Regards Waldo
-----Original Message----- From: ros-dev-bounces@reactos.com on behalf of Andrew Flynn Sent: Thu 4/14/2005 4:28 AM To: ReactOS Development List Subject: Re: [ros-dev] 7-zip - holy smokes!
I agree with Michael B. 7Zip is superior to ZIP. You have to remember who will be downloading the source, compressed files. Is it going to be standard windows users that use winzip and nothing else? When it comes to mass distribution of images, the iso format seems like a sensible choice, where the setup programs can utilise whatever compression they like. PKZip may be the most popular, but that does not mean that ReactOS files have to use it.
Michael B. Trausch wrote:
Thomas Weidenmueller wrote:
I don't think it's a good choice for our public downloads, the avarage user most likely will not know this format. zip still is THE standard.
True, it is. However, end-users will follow whatever trends are set for them. ZIP got to be big and well-known because of PKZip, honestly.
If 7-Zip is that much better, then I'd say we go for it and put in something like red text above the link to the downloads page that we use 7-Zip.
Or, we could give users their option and offer both. Those concerned about bandwidth would use the 7-Zip version, and those who don't care can go with the other one.
As far as users and .EXE files - End Users download EXE files all of the time. They don't know any better. They see the box in MSIE and go, "Yeah, whatever, it's my computer and I wanna download it," click it away and move on. *shrugs*
That's why I make money outside of my job, cleaning up after people's idiotic mistakes, but that's another story altogether. If we offer them a self-extracting version and a 7-Zip'd version, that'd be even better in terms of download time/bandwidth.
Not to mention, if 7-Zip can be distributed with ReactOS, it's a good way to get it out there. Since it's under LGPL, it'd be something that could even be built into ReactOS in the same way as .ZIP format support is built into more recent versions of Windows (and hopefully, just as easy to disable, because I hate that feature, but plenty of people absolutely love it).
Not only all of that, but since it's a superior compression scheme, it'd be logical to support it and help further it's distribution so that people would use it. People don't just sit down very frequently and go, "Hrm. I think I am going to search out a new way to compress my files," because they figure that compression is compression is compression, and that's all there is to it.
All in all, I think it'd be wise, especially over the long-term, to use and support 7-Zip.
- Mike
-- Michael B. Trausch fd0man@gmail.com Website: http://fd0man.chadeux.net/ Jabber: mtrausch@jabber.com Phone: +1-(678)-522-7934 FAX (US Only): 1-866-806-4647 =================================================================== Do you have PGP or GPG? Key at pgp.mit.edu, Please Encrypt E-Mail!
Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.com http://reactos.com:8080/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
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The NSIS installer system supports the 7-Zip algorithm (LZMA) and has an overhead of 30-50kB. So that would be another option.
Inno Setup also supports the LZMA algorithm like 7zip: http://www.jrsoftware.org/isinfo.php When using Inno Setup you should also download the graphical interface ISTool: http://www.istool.org/default.aspx Regards, Martin
On Thursday 21 April 2005 07:41, Martin Fuchs wrote:
The NSIS installer system supports the 7-Zip algorithm (LZMA) and has an
overhead of 30-50kB. So that would be another option.
Inno Setup also supports the LZMA algorithm like 7zip: http://www.jrsoftware.org/isinfo.php When using Inno Setup you should also download the graphical interface ISTool: http://www.istool.org/default.aspx Regards, Martin
InnoSetup 5.0.8 even works well in WINE (except for putting a custom icon into the setup, some functionality is missing in WINE for that i think) And there's also a command line compiler included :-)
-
Anich Gregor -
Martin Fuchs -
Michael B. Trausch -
Nicholas LaRoche -
Oliver Schneider -
Robert Köpferl -
Waldo Alvarez Cañizares