Interesting article

[Aleksey Bragin]

FYI:

This is Linus' interview. http://h30565.www3.hp.com/t5/Feature- 
Articles/Linus-Torvalds-s-Lessons-on-Software-Development-Management/ 
ba-p/440

He very correctly outlines many things. One of the most important:
"The other thing—and it's kind of related—that people seem to get  
wrong is to think that the code they write is what matters. No, even  
if you wrote 100% of the code, and even if you are the best  
programmer in the world and will never need any help with the project  
at all, the thing that really matters is the users of the code. The  
code itself is unimportant; the project is only as useful as people  
actually find it.”

And this:
"Way too many projects seem to think that the code is more important  
than the user, and they break things left and right, and they don't  
apologize for it, because they feel that they are ‘fixing’ the code  
and doing the right thing.”

WBR,
Aleksey Bragin.

[Javier Agustìn Fernàndez Arroyo]

+1 to Linus

When you code for anything, you code for the sake of being used by anyone.
This person (who use your software) wants it to be WORKING. So, if anything
gets broken, its developers respponsability to fix it.

And, of course, if your software is not useful, no one will use it, so....
try to enhance it :)

On Wed, Sep 28, 2011 at 11:56 AM, Aleksey Bragin [e-mail]:
> FYI:
>
> This is Linus' interview.
> http://h30565.www3.hp.com/t5/Feature-Articles/Linus-Torvalds-s-Lessons-on-So...
>
> He very correctly outlines many things. One of the most important:
> "The other thing—and it's kind of related—that people seem to get wrong is
> to think that the code they write is what matters. No, even if you wrote
> 100% of the code, and even if you are the best programmer in the world and
> will never need any help with the project at all, the thing that really
> matters is the users of the code. The code itself is unimportant; the
> project is only as useful as people actually find ithttp://h30565.www3.hp.com/t5/Feature-Articles/6-Products-That-Became-Technology-Roadkill/ba-p/36
> .”
>
> And this:
> "Way too many projects seem to think that the code is more important than
> the user, and they break things left and right, and they don't apologize for
> it, because they feel that they are ‘fixing’ the code and doing the right
> thing.”
>
> WBR,
> Aleksey Bragin.
>
> Ros-dev mailing list
> [e-mail]
> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev

[Timo Kreuzer]

Am 28.09.2011 11:56, schrieb Aleksey Bragin:
> "... the thing that really matters is the users of the code. The code 
> itself is unimportant...”

Right. And the users are now sending their data directly to the hardware 
and handle exceptions and interrupts themselves.
;-)

[Javier Agustìn Fernàndez Arroyo]

well, i think Linus is claiming: "hey, you n00bs, take care of users instead
of blaming them to not being able to.....!"

On Wed, Sep 28, 2011 at 7:55 PM, Timo Kreuzer [e-mail] wrote:
> Am 28.09.2011 11:56, schrieb Aleksey Bragin:
> > "... the thing that really matters is the users of the code. The code
> > itself is unimportant...”
> >
> > Right. And the users are now sending their data directly to the hardware
>
> and handle exceptions and interrupts themselves.
> ;-)
>
> ______________________________**_________________
> Ros-dev mailing list
> [e-mail]
> http://www.reactos.org/**mailman/listinfo/ros-devhttp://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev

[Timo Kreuzer]

Am 28.09.2011 20:09, schrieb Javier Agustìn Fernàndez Arroyo:
> well, i think Linus is claiming: "hey, you n00bs, take care of users 
> instead of blaming them to not being able to.....!"

And Steve Ballmer would answer "developers, developers, developers, ..." :D

[Adam]

One could say it works both ways. developers do not fully understand the
user's needs and it's all about "look at this new code! so cool!" while
the users are going "just fix it you stoopid geek" etc.

But Linus has a good point about end users. You could have the most
fantastic recursive whale saving algorithm (which unlike Johnny's
algorithm, uses B+ trees instead of linked lists and heaps somewhere)
on the planet but it is no good if your target audience cannot use it.
If the target audience can use Johnny's algorithm but not your more
super efficient one, they'll use Johnny's algorithm even though it is
a hundred times slower.

A classic example is Heidi Eraser - was a fantastic product until
the head developer guy decided to use .NET (in version 6.0) and now when
people complain about it he ignores them and just goes "Oh the code's a
lot better and much cleaner than before and it doesn't matter what the
end user thinks..." and shit. Sure the code *might* be better but now
you have a huge runtime, shit that runs in the background, and a crappy
and difficult to use interface. And you've lost Windows 2000 support.
Needless to say now I am writing my own erase utility since even that
is an easier task than attempting to use their stupid interface. While
that is being written I'm sticking with the older version.

This also brings me to another thing about massive changes in code: if
it ain't broke then don't fix it.

I agree with Linus on this one.

On Wed, 28 Sep 2011 13:56:52 +0400
Aleksey Bragin [e-mail] wrote:
> FYI:
>
> This is Linus' interview. http://h30565.www3.hp.com/t5/Feature- 
> Articles/Linus-Torvalds-s-Lessons-on-Software-Development-Management/ 
> ba-p/440
>
> He very correctly outlines many things. One of the most important:
> "The other thing—and it's kind of related—that people seem to get  
> wrong is to think that the code they write is what matters. No, even  
> if you wrote 100% of the code, and even if you are the best  
> programmer in the world and will never need any help with the
> project at all, the thing that really matters is the users of the
> code. The code itself is unimportant; the project is only as useful
> as people actually find it.”
>
> And this:
> "Way too many projects seem to think that the code is more important  
> than the user, and they break things left and right, and they don't  
> apologize for it, because they feel that they are ‘fixing’ the code  
> and doing the right thing.”
>
> WBR,
> Aleksey Bragin.

[dmex]

Kinda surprised Linus would even mention or care about users considering the
Linux kernel is not built or optimized for desktop machines.

http://apcmag.com/why_i_quit_kernel_developer_con_kolivas.htm

-----Original Message-----
From: [e-mail] [mailto:[e-mail]] On
Behalf Of Adam
Sent: Thursday, 29 September 2011 7:59 AM
To: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: [ros-dev] Interesting article

One could say it works both ways. developers do not fully understand the
user's needs and it's all about "look at this new code! so cool!" while the
users are going "just fix it you stoopid geek" etc.

But Linus has a good point about end users. You could have the most
fantastic recursive whale saving algorithm (which unlike Johnny's algorithm,
uses B+ trees instead of linked lists and heaps somewhere) on the planet but
it is no good if your target audience cannot use it.
If the target audience can use Johnny's algorithm but not your more super
efficient one, they'll use Johnny's algorithm even though it is a hundred
times slower.

A classic example is Heidi Eraser - was a fantastic product until the head
developer guy decided to use .NET (in version 6.0) and now when people
complain about it he ignores them and just goes "Oh the code's a lot better
and much cleaner than before and it doesn't matter what the end user
thinks..." and shit. Sure the code *might* be better but now you have a huge
runtime, shit that runs in the background, and a crappy and difficult to use
interface. And you've lost Windows 2000 support.
Needless to say now I am writing my own erase utility since even that is an
easier task than attempting to use their stupid interface. While that is
being written I'm sticking with the older version.

This also brings me to another thing about massive changes in code: if it
ain't broke then don't fix it.

I agree with Linus on this one.

On Wed, 28 Sep 2011 13:56:52 +0400
Aleksey Bragin [e-mail] wrote:
> FYI:
>
> This is Linus' interview. http://h30565.www3.hp.com/t5/Feature-
> Articles/Linus-Torvalds-s-Lessons-on-Software-Development-Management/
> ba-p/440
>
> He very correctly outlines many things. One of the most important:
> "The other thing-and it's kind of related-that people seem to get 
> wrong is to think that the code they write is what matters. No, even 
> if you wrote 100% of the code, and even if you are the best programmer 
> in the world and will never need any help with the project at all, the 
> thing that really matters is the users of the code. The code itself is 
> unimportant; the project is only as useful as people actually find 
> it."
>
> And this:
> "Way too many projects seem to think that the code is more important 
> than the user, and they break things left and right, and they don't 
> apologize for it, because they feel that they are 'fixing' the code 
> and doing the right thing."
>
> WBR,
> Aleksey Bragin.

_______________________________________________
Ros-dev mailing list
[e-mail]
http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev

[Aleksey Bragin]

That's because smart people understand that Linux is not an operating  
system for desktops.

On Sep 29, 2011, at 7:52 AM, dmex wrote:
> Kinda surprised Linus would even mention or care about users  
> considering the
> Linux kernel is not built or optimized for desktop machines.
>
> http://apcmag.com/why_i_quit_kernel_developer_con_kolivas.htm
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [e-mail] [mailto:ros-dev- 
> [e-mail]] On
> Behalf Of Adam
> Sent: Thursday, 29 September 2011 7:59 AM
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: [ros-dev] Interesting article
>
> One could say it works both ways. developers do not fully  
> understand the
> user's needs and it's all about "look at this new code! so cool!"  
> while the
> users are going "just fix it you stoopid geek" etc.
>
> But Linus has a good point about end users. You could have the most
> fantastic recursive whale saving algorithm (which unlike Johnny's  
> algorithm,
> uses B+ trees instead of linked lists and heaps somewhere) on the  
> planet but
> it is no good if your target audience cannot use it.
> If the target audience can use Johnny's algorithm but not your more  
> super
> efficient one, they'll use Johnny's algorithm even though it is a  
> hundred
> times slower.
>
> A classic example is Heidi Eraser - was a fantastic product until  
> the head
> developer guy decided to use .NET (in version 6.0) and now when people
> complain about it he ignores them and just goes "Oh the code's a  
> lot better
> and much cleaner than before and it doesn't matter what the end user
> thinks..." and shit. Sure the code *might* be better but now you  
> have a huge
> runtime, shit that runs in the background, and a crappy and  
> difficult to use
> interface. And you've lost Windows 2000 support.
> Needless to say now I am writing my own erase utility since even  
> that is an
> easier task than attempting to use their stupid interface. While  
> that is
> being written I'm sticking with the older version.
>
> This also brings me to another thing about massive changes in code:  
> if it
> ain't broke then don't fix it.
>
> I agree with Linus on this one.
>
> On Wed, 28 Sep 2011 13:56:52 +0400
> Aleksey Bragin [e-mail] wrote:
> > FYI:
> >
> > This is Linus' interview. http://h30565.www3.hp.com/t5/Feature-
> > Articles/Linus-Torvalds-s-Lessons-on-Software-Development-Management/
> > ba-p/440
> >
> > He very correctly outlines many things. One of the most important:
> > "The other thing-and it's kind of related-that people seem to get
> > wrong is to think that the code they write is what matters. No, even
> > if you wrote 100% of the code, and even if you are the best  
> > programmer
> > in the world and will never need any help with the project at all,  
> > the
> > thing that really matters is the users of the code. The code  
> > itself is
> > unimportant; the project is only as useful as people actually find
> > it."
> >
> > And this:
> > "Way too many projects seem to think that the code is more important
> > than the user, and they break things left and right, and they don't
> > apologize for it, because they feel that they are 'fixing' the code
> > and doing the right thing."
> >
> > WBR,
> > Aleksey Bragin.
>
> Ros-dev mailing list
> [e-mail]
> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>
> Ros-dev mailing list
> [e-mail]
> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev

[Javier Agustìn Fernàndez Arroyo]

i use it at work, through. WinXP into vbox .

I still like Linux more than Windows, mostly because of stability.

On Thu, Sep 29, 2011 at 10:44 AM, Aleksey Bragin [e-mail]:
> That's because smart people understand that Linux is not an operating
> system for desktops.
>
> On Sep 29, 2011, at 7:52 AM, dmex wrote:
>
> Kinda surprised Linus would even mention or care about users considering
> > the
> > Linux kernel is not built or optimized for desktop machines.
> >
> > http://apcmag.com/why_i_quit_**kernel_developer_con_kolivas.**htmhttp://apcmag.com/why_i_quit_kernel_developer_con_kolivas.htm
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [e-mail] [mailto:ros-dev-bounces@**[e-mail]]
> > On
> > Behalf Of Adam
> > Sent: Thursday, 29 September 2011 7:59 AM
> > To: [e-mail]
> > Subject: Re: [ros-dev] Interesting article
> >
> > One could say it works both ways. developers do not fully understand the
> > user's needs and it's all about "look at this new code! so cool!" while
> > the
> > users are going "just fix it you stoopid geek" etc.
> >
> > But Linus has a good point about end users. You could have the most
> > fantastic recursive whale saving algorithm (which unlike Johnny's
> > algorithm,
> > uses B+ trees instead of linked lists and heaps somewhere) on the planet
> > but
> > it is no good if your target audience cannot use it.
> > If the target audience can use Johnny's algorithm but not your more super
> > efficient one, they'll use Johnny's algorithm even though it is a hundred
> > times slower.
> >
> > A classic example is Heidi Eraser - was a fantastic product until the head
> > developer guy decided to use .NET (in version 6.0) and now when people
> > complain about it he ignores them and just goes "Oh the code's a lot
> > better
> > and much cleaner than before and it doesn't matter what the end user
> > thinks..." and shit. Sure the code *might* be better but now you have a
> > huge
> > runtime, shit that runs in the background, and a crappy and difficult to
> > use
> > interface. And you've lost Windows 2000 support.
> > Needless to say now I am writing my own erase utility since even that is
> > an
> > easier task than attempting to use their stupid interface. While that is
> > being written I'm sticking with the older version.
> >
> > This also brings me to another thing about massive changes in code: if it
> > ain't broke then don't fix it.
> >
> > I agree with Linus on this one.
> >
> > On Wed, 28 Sep 2011 13:56:52 +0400
> > Aleksey Bragin [e-mail] wrote:
> >
> > FYI:
> > > This is Linus' interview. http://h30565.www3.hp.com/t5/**Feature-http://h30565.www3.hp.com/t5/Feature-
> > > Articles/Linus-Torvalds-s-**Lessons-on-Software-**
> > > Development-Management/
> > > ba-p/440
> > >
> > > He very correctly outlines many things. One of the most important:
> > > "The other thing-and it's kind of related-that people seem to get
> > > wrong is to think that the code they write is what matters. No, even
> > > if you wrote 100% of the code, and even if you are the best programmer
> > > in the world and will never need any help with the project at all, the
> > > thing that really matters is the users of the code. The code itself is
> > > unimportant; the project is only as useful as people actually find
> > > it."
> > >
> > > And this:
> > > "Way too many projects seem to think that the code is more important
> > > than the user, and they break things left and right, and they don't
> > > apologize for it, because they feel that they are 'fixing' the code
> > > and doing the right thing."
> > >
> > > WBR,
> > > Aleksey Bragin.
> >
> > ______________________________**_________________
> > Ros-dev mailing list
> > [e-mail]
> > http://www.reactos.org/**mailman/listinfo/ros-devhttp://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> >
> > ______________________________**_________________
> > Ros-dev mailing list
> > [e-mail]
> > http://www.reactos.org/**mailman/listinfo/ros-devhttp://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>
> ______________________________**_________________
> Ros-dev mailing list
> [e-mail]
> http://www.reactos.org/**mailman/listinfo/ros-devhttp://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev

[Aleksey Bragin]

There are millions of people using Linux as a desktop OS throughout  
the world and there was a huge amount of work done to make an OS  
suitable for desktop usage. But it doesn't change the fact.
We see mobile devices market emerging rapidly, servers infrastructure  
is quite densely occupied by Linux, and as for supercomputers, Linux  
dominates there.
But when it comes to desktops: Linux has no future in the desktop  
market. That's plain simple.

P.S. No holywars, it's just a fact which I wanted to state as my  
opinion and an opinion of some people I spoke to. I respect those who  
run and use Linux for daily work of course.

On Sep 29, 2011, at 2:54 PM, Javier Agustìn Fernàndez Arroyo wrote:
> i use it at work, through. WinXP into vbox .
>
> I still like Linux more than Windows, mostly because of stability.
>
> On Thu, Sep 29, 2011 at 10:44 AM, Aleksey Bragin  
> [e-mail] wrote:
> That's because smart people understand that Linux is not an  
> operating system for desktops.
>
> On Sep 29, 2011, at 7:52 AM, dmex wrote:
>
> Kinda surprised Linus would even mention or care about users  
> considering the
> Linux kernel is not built or optimized for desktop machines.
>
> http://apcmag.com/why_i_quit_kernel_developer_con_kolivas.htm
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [e-mail] [mailto:ros-dev- 
> [e-mail]] On
> Behalf Of Adam
> Sent: Thursday, 29 September 2011 7:59 AM
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: [ros-dev] Interesting article
>
> One could say it works both ways. developers do not fully  
> understand the
> user's needs and it's all about "look at this new code! so cool!"  
> while the
> users are going "just fix it you stoopid geek" etc.
>
> But Linus has a good point about end users. You could have the most
> fantastic recursive whale saving algorithm (which unlike Johnny's  
> algorithm,
> uses B+ trees instead of linked lists and heaps somewhere) on the  
> planet but
> it is no good if your target audience cannot use it.
> If the target audience can use Johnny's algorithm but not your more  
> super
> efficient one, they'll use Johnny's algorithm even though it is a  
> hundred
> times slower.
>
> A classic example is Heidi Eraser - was a fantastic product until  
> the head
> developer guy decided to use .NET (in version 6.0) and now when people
> complain about it he ignores them and just goes "Oh the code's a  
> lot better
> and much cleaner than before and it doesn't matter what the end user
> thinks..." and shit. Sure the code *might* be better but now you  
> have a huge
> runtime, shit that runs in the background, and a crappy and  
> difficult to use
> interface. And you've lost Windows 2000 support.
> Needless to say now I am writing my own erase utility since even  
> that is an
> easier task than attempting to use their stupid interface. While  
> that is
> being written I'm sticking with the older version.
>
> This also brings me to another thing about massive changes in code:  
> if it
> ain't broke then don't fix it.
>
> I agree with Linus on this one.
>
> On Wed, 28 Sep 2011 13:56:52 +0400
> Aleksey Bragin [e-mail] wrote:
>
> FYI:
>
> This is Linus' interview. http://h30565.www3.hp.com/t5/Feature-
> Articles/Linus-Torvalds-s-Lessons-on-Software-Development-Management/
> ba-p/440
>
> He very correctly outlines many things. One of the most important:
> "The other thing-and it's kind of related-that people seem to get
> wrong is to think that the code they write is what matters. No, even
> if you wrote 100% of the code, and even if you are the best programmer
> in the world and will never need any help with the project at all, the
> thing that really matters is the users of the code. The code itself is
> unimportant; the project is only as useful as people actually find
> it."
>
> And this:
> "Way too many projects seem to think that the code is more important
> than the user, and they break things left and right, and they don't
> apologize for it, because they feel that they are 'fixing' the code
> and doing the right thing."
>
> WBR,
> Aleksey Bragin.
>
> Ros-dev mailing list
> [e-mail]
> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>
> Ros-dev mailing list
> [e-mail]
> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>
> Ros-dev mailing list
> [e-mail]
> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>
> Ros-dev mailing list
> [e-mail]
> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev