Re: [ros-dev] wxwidgets

[Imre Leber]

>  -----Original Message-----
> From: Thomas Weidenmueller [mailto:[e-mail]]
> Sent: Friday, September 1, 2006 01:01 PM
> To: 'ReactOS Development List'
> Subject: Re: [ros-dev] wxwidgets
>
> >   What is the standpoint of the reactos project on
> > using libraries, like for
> >  example wxwidgets for implementing reactos software (like reactos movie
> >  maker)? 
> This would just make the build process more complicated than neccessary,
> and increase compile time and download size (sources). Tools/Applications
> that come with ReactOS are not needed and expected to be ported to other
> architectures. We should stick to plain Win32/64 APIs. Also C is preferred
> over C++ a lot.
>
> >   Further is there any specification that says for
> > example "everything has
> >  to be compilable with mingw", or "everything has to run on i386/pentium
> >  xx"? 
> - No other tools/libraries neccessary on the host than the minimum build
> system (mingw, nasm, make)
> - Only use C++ when it makes sense, prefer C (not just because g++ is so
> extremely slow)
> - Don't include pre-built binaries in the repository, everything needs to
> be built from source code
> - Don't bloat the repository with tons of huge libraries (do we still have
> more than one xml library?!)
> - Software that is included in the base repository should not use
> frameworks for portability and use the APIs directly instead
>
> That's my personal opinions and doesn't neccessarily match with those of
> the other developers.
>  
Of course, I was suggesting wxWidgets since it seems that it is the closest thing to MFC,
what most windows programmers would be accustomed to.

That it also happens to run in linux is, of course, completely irrelevant.

Imre

>  - Thomas
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ros-dev mailing list
> Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>
>

[Oliver Schneider]

>   Of course, I was suggesting wxWidgets since it seems
> that it is the
>  closest thing to MFC, what most windows programmers would be accustomed
>  to.
>  
>  That it also happens to run in linux is, of course, completely
>  irrelevant. 
It has, however, a huge overhead when compared with the MFC!


Just my 2 cents,

Oliver



PS: I like wxWidgets nevertheless and also use it when it is appropriate.
-- 
---------------------------------------------------
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ICQ: #281645
URL: http://assarbad.info | http://windirstat.info | http://blog.assarbad.info

[Saveliy Tretiakov]

C++ and librarys like mfc, wxwidgets etc. suck.
C and pure winapi is the best thing ever was invented for windows 
programming.


>

[Oliver Schneider]

>   C++ and librarys like mfc, wxwidgets etc. suck.
>  C and pure winapi is the best thing ever was invented for windows 
>  programming. 
Yeah, sure. Bug-prone development rules.

Why develop at full-speed when you can slowly creep to the finish line ... :-\

Whatever ...

Oliver
-- 
---------------------------------------------------
May the source be with you, stranger ;)

ICQ: #281645
URL: http://assarbad.info | http://windirstat.info | http://blog.assarbad.info

[Saveliy Tretiakov]

Oliver Schneider ?????:
>   Why develop at full-speed when you can slowly creep to
> the finish line ... :-\
>     
Eeah! Why develop full-speed using winapi when you can slowly creep to 
the finish line with mfc...

[Aleksey Bragin]

It's a matter of taste really.

I know both Win32 API and MFC rather good, and can say that none of  
them is bad.
As for wxWidgets - I didn't use it myself, thus I have no opinion  
about it.


WBR,
Aleksey Bragin

On Sep 1, 2006, at 7:15 PM, Saveliy Tretiakov wrote:

>   C++ and librarys like mfc, wxwidgets etc. suck.
>  C and pure winapi is the best thing ever was invented for windows
>  programming.
>
>
> >   
>  _______________________________________________
>  Ros-dev mailing list
>  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
>  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev

[Oliver Schneider]

>   I know both Win32 API and MFC rather good, and can say
> that none of  
>  them is bad. 
Same for me. However, using Win32 API directly for bigger projects is
just insane. Small and medium-sized projects yes, but use it for something like a web
browser or a word processor and you are majorly f***ed.

wxWidgets itself is really great and since it is older than ROS you can see that it
survived several OS and GUI versions, with respect to the supported OS/GUI.

Oliver
-- 
---------------------------------------------------
May the source be with you, stranger ;)

ICQ: #281645
URL: http://assarbad.info | http://windirstat.info | http://blog.assarbad.info

[Peter Dolding]

Oliver Schneider wrote:
> >   I know both
> > Win32 API and MFC rather good, and can say that none of  
> >  them is bad.
> >       
>  Same for me. However, using Win32 API directly for bigger projects is just
> insane. Small and medium-sized projects yes, but use it for something like a web browser
> or a word processor and you are majorly f***ed.
>
>  wxWidgets itself is really great and since it is older than ROS you can see that it
> survived several OS and GUI versions, with respect to the supported OS/GUI.
>     
Why is Win32/64 insane.  Ask your self that question.  Use wxwidgets 
without  dialog construction tool.   You find its not exactly pretty.

MFC and wxwidgets normally travel into projects due nature.

Now of wxwidgets are allowed we will have others asking for GTK because 
GTK is simpler in there minds.  Then we have the QT guys who will want 
theres.   A line has to be drawn somewhere.

Basicly we lack a good dialog construction tool for Win32/64 that all 
users can use.  That is the true problem.  So far no one anywhere in the 
C and C++ worlds of open source have built one.  The closest is in the 
Asm world.  Not exactly friendly.  Don't any one say Visual Studio that 
thing more often than not goes MFC and does not run well on other 
platform.  Visual Studio itself does not run well on other platforms.

Note firefox does not use MFC or Wxwidgets it uses its own.  Same with 
OpenOffice.  Large project are unlikely to use either more likely to use 
something of there own construction.  Reason suited to there needs..

Peter Dolding

[Oliver Schneider]

>   Why is Win32/64 insane.  Ask your self that question. 
> Use wxwidgets 
>  without  dialog construction tool.   You find its not exactly pretty. 
Do the same
with a plain Win32 API program and you will see that wxWidgets spares you a lot of work,
even if you don't use a dialog construction tool.

Creating .RCs with Notepad is not particularly exciting to me ...

>   Basicly we lack a good dialog construction tool for
> Win32/64 that all 
>  users can use.  That is the true problem.  So far no one anywhere in the 
>  C and C++ worlds of open source have built one.  The closest is in the 
>  Asm world.  Not exactly friendly.  Don't any one say Visual Studio that 
>  thing more often than not goes MFC and does not run well on other 
>  platform.  Visual Studio itself does not run well on other platforms. 
VIDE/LCC once
had such an editor. It was not as elaborate as is Visual Studio's dialog construction
tool, but it worked.

If I remember correctly, it was partially OpenSource.

Screenshot:
http://assarbad.info/stuff/tutorials/nonvcl/reseditor.png

Related links:
http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~lcc-win32/ (LCC)
http://www.objectcentral.com/downloads.htm (source code of VIDE!!!)

>   Note firefox does not use MFC or Wxwidgets it uses its
> own.  Same with 
>  OpenOffice.  Large project are unlikely to use either more likely to use 
>  something of there own construction.  Reason suited to there needs.. 
Right, but
these projects use their own *frameworks*. No one in such a big project would ever say:
hey, let's use the plain Win32 API, we need no freakin' framework. This is the
case because they want to be platform-independent to some extent and because it is insane
if they would do it.

So yes, they don't use wxWidgets, GTK, Qt, MFC or whatever else, *but* they *use* some
kind of _framework_.

I agree, C has its right to exist and Win32 API as well. If you look at my website you
will actually find more direct Win32 API samples than samples using a framework. So it is
not that I am against it per-se and tools like Notepad can be conveniently written using
the Win32 API only. Even Wordpad, but that's about the size where one should stop and
rethink the usage of plain Win32 API and consider creating or using some framework.

Oliver
-- 
---------------------------------------------------
May the source be with you, stranger ;)

ICQ: #281645
URL: http://assarbad.info | http://windirstat.info | http://blog.assarbad.info

[Peter Dolding]

Oliver Schneider wrote:
> >   Why is
> > Win32/64 insane.  Ask your self that question.  Use wxwidgets 
> >  without  dialog construction tool.   You find its not exactly pretty.
> >       
>  Do the same with a plain Win32 API program and you will see that wxWidgets
> spares you a lot of work, even if you don't use a dialog construction tool.
>
>  Creating .RCs with Notepad is not particularly exciting to me ...
>     
Or effective.   Win32 api is very powerful in its own right but nothing 
effective to code dialogs in.  I am talking like the way C# does it.   
You create a Dialog it builds the raw source for direct interfacing with 
the API.  No fancy toolkit system.  Even the rc system of windows is not 
the best.  It true just transforms into static dialogs.
> >   Basicly we
> > lack a good dialog construction tool for Win32/64 that all 
> >  users can use.  That is the true problem.  So far no one anywhere in the 
> >  C and C++ worlds of open source have built one.  The closest is in the 
> >  Asm world.  Not exactly friendly.  Don't any one say Visual Studio that 
> >  thing more often than not goes MFC and does not run well on other 
> >  platform.  Visual Studio itself does not run well on other platforms.
> >       
>  VIDE/LCC once had such an editor. It was not as elaborate as is Visual
> Studio's dialog construction tool, but it worked.
>
>  If I remember correctly, it was partially OpenSource.
>
>  Screenshot:
>  http://assarbad.info/stuff/tutorials/nonvcl/reseditor.png
>
>  Related links:
>  http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~lcc-win32/ (LCC)
>  http://www.objectcentral.com/downloads.htm (source code of VIDE!!!)
>     
VIDE still users a framework.  Its framework is Called V.  Basicly there 
is nothing that builds direct Win32 api dialogs.
> >   Note firefox
> > does not use MFC or Wxwidgets it uses its own.  Same with 
> >  OpenOffice.  Large project are unlikely to use either more likely to use 
> >  something of there own construction.  Reason suited to there needs..
> >       
>  Right, but these projects use their own *frameworks*. No one in such a big
> project would ever say: hey, let's use the plain Win32 API, we need no freakin'
> framework. This is the case because they want to be platform-independent to some extent
> and because it is insane if they would do it.
>
>  So yes, they don't use wxWidgets, GTK, Qt, MFC or whatever else, *but* they *use*
> some kind of _framework_.
>
>  I agree, C has its right to exist and Win32 API as well. If you look at my website you
> will actually find more direct Win32 API samples than samples using a framework. So it is
> not that I am against it per-se and tools like Notepad can be conveniently written using
> the Win32 API only. Even Wordpad, but that's about the size where one should stop and
> rethink the usage of plain Win32 API and consider creating or using some framework.
>     
Ok I am going to be kinda of plain here.  Reactos is a kinda large 
project.   Its normal framework is Win32.  No good tools exist for it.  
Lot of Reactos applications have to be kept small faster and the least 
amount of overhead.  Dialog construction tool for it would make it 10 
times simpler.  I personally think most people are looking else where 
because nothing exists in Win32/64 to make it simple.

Cross platform is not exactly a issue here.  Win32/64 does fit reactos 
needs.  Just building in Win32/64 is a problem.

Good dialog construction tool would remove lots of the problems.

Peter Dolding

[Richard]

This is all very much besides the point.  If you want to build an app in 
wxWidgets, nobody is stopping you.  The core ROS project should remain 
free of any such dependencies.  Any util, app, driver, or service that 
is apart of ROS should be native win32 api, nothing more.  This helps 
keep bloat down and keeps dependencies from becoming an issue.

(Yes, i DO still lurk here.)

Regards,
Richard Campbell

Peter Dolding wrote:
>   Oliver Schneider wrote:
>    
> > >   Why is
> > > Win32/64 insane.  Ask your self that question.  Use wxwidgets 
> > >  without  dialog construction tool.   You find its not exactly pretty.
> > >      
> > >         
> >  Do the same with a plain Win32 API program and you will see that wxWidgets
> > spares you a lot of work, even if you don't use a dialog construction tool.
> >
> >  Creating .RCs with Notepad is not particularly exciting to me ...
> >    
> >       
>  Or effective.   Win32 api is very powerful in its own right but nothing 
>  effective to code dialogs in.  I am talking like the way C# does it.   
>  You create a Dialog it builds the raw source for direct interfacing with 
>  the API.  No fancy toolkit system.  Even the rc system of windows is not 
>  the best.  It true just transforms into static dialogs.
>    
> > >   Basicly
> > > we lack a good dialog construction tool for Win32/64 that all 
> > >  users can use.  That is the true problem.  So far no one anywhere in the 
> > >  C and C++ worlds of open source have built one.  The closest is in the 
> > >  Asm world.  Not exactly friendly.  Don't any one say Visual Studio that 
> > >  thing more often than not goes MFC and does not run well on other 
> > >  platform.  Visual Studio itself does not run well on other platforms.
> > >      
> > >         
> >  VIDE/LCC once had such an editor. It was not as elaborate as is Visual
> > Studio's dialog construction tool, but it worked.
> >
> >  If I remember correctly, it was partially OpenSource.
> >
> >  Screenshot:
> >  http://assarbad.info/stuff/tutorials/nonvcl/reseditor.png
> >
> >  Related links:
> >  http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~lcc-win32/ (LCC)
> >  http://www.objectcentral.com/downloads.htm (source code of VIDE!!!)
> >    
> >       
>  VIDE still users a framework.  Its framework is Called V.  Basicly there 
>  is nothing that builds direct Win32 api dialogs.
>    
> > >   Note
> > > firefox does not use MFC or Wxwidgets it uses its own.  Same with 
> > >  OpenOffice.  Large project are unlikely to use either more likely to use 
> > >  something of there own construction.  Reason suited to there needs..
> > >      
> > >         
> >  Right, but these projects use their own *frameworks*. No one in such a big
> > project would ever say: hey, let's use the plain Win32 API, we need no freakin'
> > framework. This is the case because they want to be platform-independent to some extent
> > and because it is insane if they would do it.
> >
> >  So yes, they don't use wxWidgets, GTK, Qt, MFC or whatever else, *but* they *use*
> > some kind of _framework_.
> >
> >  I agree, C has its right to exist and Win32 API as well. If you look at my website you
> > will actually find more direct Win32 API samples than samples using a framework. So it is
> > not that I am against it per-se and tools like Notepad can be conveniently written using
> > the Win32 API only. Even Wordpad, but that's about the size where one should stop and
> > rethink the usage of plain Win32 API and consider creating or using some framework.
> >    
> >       
>  Ok I am going to be kinda of plain here.  Reactos is a kinda large 
>  project.   Its normal framework is Win32.  No good tools exist for it.  
>  Lot of Reactos applications have to be kept small faster and the least 
>  amount of overhead.  Dialog construction tool for it would make it 10 
>  times simpler.  I personally think most people are looking else where 
>  because nothing exists in Win32/64 to make it simple.
>
>  Cross platform is not exactly a issue here.  Win32/64 does fit reactos 
>  needs.  Just building in Win32/64 is a problem.
>
>  Good dialog construction tool would remove lots of the problems.
>
>  Peter Dolding
>  _______________________________________________
>  Ros-dev mailing list
>  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
>  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>
>

[ShadowFlare]

On 9/2/06, Richard <eek2121(a)comcast.net> wrote:
>  
>  This is all very much besides the point.  If you want to build an app in
>  wxWidgets, nobody is stopping you.  The core ROS project should remain
>  free of any such dependencies.  Any util, app, driver, or service that
>  is apart of ROS should be native win32 api, nothing more.  This helps
>  keep bloat down and keeps dependencies from becoming an issue.
>
>  (Yes, i DO still lurk here.)
>
>  Regards,
>  Richard Campbell
>  

Of course, if ROS ever included its own MFC dlls then that would be an
option, too, correct?

-ShadowFlare

[James Tabor]

Oliver Schneider wrote:
>   
>  VIDE/LCC once had such an editor. It was not as elaborate as is Visual Studio's
> dialog construction tool, but it worked.
>  
>  If I remember correctly, it was partially OpenSource.
>  
>  Screenshot:
>  http://assarbad.info/stuff/tutorials/nonvcl/reseditor.png
>  
>  Related links:
>  http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~lcc-win32/ (LCC)
>  http://www.objectcentral.com/downloads.htm (source code of VIDE!!!)
>  
>   
I use VIDE as a test tool. It helped in identifying a bug in CreateWindowsEx.
Thanks,
James

[James Tabor]

Hi
Aleksey Bragin wrote:
>   It's a matter of taste really.
>  
>  I know both Win32 API and MFC rather good, and can say that none of  
>  them is bad.
>  As for wxWidgets - I didn't use it myself, thus I have no opinion  
>  about it.
>  
>   
I use it with Linux and Windows. I've tested Audacity with ros and the only
thing missing is our sound subsystem which is caused it to fault out.

http://www.wxwidgets.org/

>   WBR,
>  Aleksey Bragin
>  
>  On Sep 1, 2006, at 7:15 PM, Saveliy Tretiakov wrote:
>  
>  
> >C++ and librarys like mfc, wxwidgets etc. suck.
> >C and pure winapi is the best thing ever was invented for windows
> >programming.
> >
> > 
Thanks,
James