-----Original Message----- From: Thomas Weidenmueller [mailto:w3seek@reactos.com] Sent: Friday, September 1, 2006 01:01 PM To: 'ReactOS Development List' Subject: Re: [ros-dev] wxwidgets
What is the standpoint of the reactos project on using libraries, like for example wxwidgets for implementing reactos software (like reactos movie maker)?
This would just make the build process more complicated than neccessary, and increase compile time and download size (sources). Tools/Applications that come with ReactOS are not needed and expected to be ported to other architectures. We should stick to plain Win32/64 APIs. Also C is preferred over C++ a lot.
Further is there any specification that says for example "everything has to be compilable with mingw", or "everything has to run on i386/pentium xx"?
- No other tools/libraries neccessary on the host than the minimum build
system (mingw, nasm, make)
- Only use C++ when it makes sense, prefer C (not just because g++ is so
extremely slow)
- Don't include pre-built binaries in the repository, everything needs to
be built from source code
- Don't bloat the repository with tons of huge libraries (do we still have
more than one xml library?!)
- Software that is included in the base repository should not use
frameworks for portability and use the APIs directly instead
That's my personal opinions and doesn't neccessarily match with those of the other developers.
Of course, I was suggesting wxWidgets since it seems that it is the closest thing to MFC, what most windows programmers would be accustomed to.
That it also happens to run in linux is, of course, completely irrelevant.
Imre
- Thomas
Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
Of course, I was suggesting wxWidgets since it seems that it is the closest thing to MFC, what most windows programmers would be accustomed to.
That it also happens to run in linux is, of course, completely irrelevant.
It has, however, a huge overhead when compared with the MFC!
Just my 2 cents,
Oliver
PS: I like wxWidgets nevertheless and also use it when it is appropriate.
C++ and librarys like mfc, wxwidgets etc. suck. C and pure winapi is the best thing ever was invented for windows programming.
Yeah, sure. Bug-prone development rules.
Why develop at full-speed when you can slowly creep to the finish line ... :-\
Whatever ...
Oliver
It's a matter of taste really.
I know both Win32 API and MFC rather good, and can say that none of them is bad. As for wxWidgets - I didn't use it myself, thus I have no opinion about it.
WBR, Aleksey Bragin
On Sep 1, 2006, at 7:15 PM, Saveliy Tretiakov wrote:
C++ and librarys like mfc, wxwidgets etc. suck. C and pure winapi is the best thing ever was invented for windows programming.
Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
I know both Win32 API and MFC rather good, and can say that none of them is bad.
Same for me. However, using Win32 API directly for bigger projects is just insane. Small and medium-sized projects yes, but use it for something like a web browser or a word processor and you are majorly f***ed.
wxWidgets itself is really great and since it is older than ROS you can see that it survived several OS and GUI versions, with respect to the supported OS/GUI.
Oliver
Oliver Schneider wrote:
I know both Win32 API and MFC rather good, and can say that none of them is bad.
Same for me. However, using Win32 API directly for bigger projects is just insane. Small and medium-sized projects yes, but use it for something like a web browser or a word processor and you are majorly f***ed.
wxWidgets itself is really great and since it is older than ROS you can see that it survived several OS and GUI versions, with respect to the supported OS/GUI.
Why is Win32/64 insane. Ask your self that question. Use wxwidgets without dialog construction tool. You find its not exactly pretty.
MFC and wxwidgets normally travel into projects due nature.
Now of wxwidgets are allowed we will have others asking for GTK because GTK is simpler in there minds. Then we have the QT guys who will want theres. A line has to be drawn somewhere.
Basicly we lack a good dialog construction tool for Win32/64 that all users can use. That is the true problem. So far no one anywhere in the C and C++ worlds of open source have built one. The closest is in the Asm world. Not exactly friendly. Don't any one say Visual Studio that thing more often than not goes MFC and does not run well on other platform. Visual Studio itself does not run well on other platforms.
Note firefox does not use MFC or Wxwidgets it uses its own. Same with OpenOffice. Large project are unlikely to use either more likely to use something of there own construction. Reason suited to there needs..
Peter Dolding
Why is Win32/64 insane. Ask your self that question. Use wxwidgets without dialog construction tool. You find its not exactly pretty.
Do the same with a plain Win32 API program and you will see that wxWidgets spares you a lot of work, even if you don't use a dialog construction tool.
Creating .RCs with Notepad is not particularly exciting to me ...
Basicly we lack a good dialog construction tool for Win32/64 that all users can use. That is the true problem. So far no one anywhere in the C and C++ worlds of open source have built one. The closest is in the Asm world. Not exactly friendly. Don't any one say Visual Studio that thing more often than not goes MFC and does not run well on other platform. Visual Studio itself does not run well on other platforms.
VIDE/LCC once had such an editor. It was not as elaborate as is Visual Studio's dialog construction tool, but it worked.
If I remember correctly, it was partially OpenSource.
Screenshot: http://assarbad.info/stuff/tutorials/nonvcl/reseditor.png
Related links: http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~lcc-win32/ (LCC) http://www.objectcentral.com/downloads.htm (source code of VIDE!!!)
Note firefox does not use MFC or Wxwidgets it uses its own. Same with OpenOffice. Large project are unlikely to use either more likely to use something of there own construction. Reason suited to there needs..
Right, but these projects use their own *frameworks*. No one in such a big project would ever say: hey, let's use the plain Win32 API, we need no freakin' framework. This is the case because they want to be platform-independent to some extent and because it is insane if they would do it.
So yes, they don't use wxWidgets, GTK, Qt, MFC or whatever else, *but* they *use* some kind of _framework_.
I agree, C has its right to exist and Win32 API as well. If you look at my website you will actually find more direct Win32 API samples than samples using a framework. So it is not that I am against it per-se and tools like Notepad can be conveniently written using the Win32 API only. Even Wordpad, but that's about the size where one should stop and rethink the usage of plain Win32 API and consider creating or using some framework.
Oliver
Oliver Schneider wrote:
Why is Win32/64 insane. Ask your self that question. Use wxwidgets without dialog construction tool. You find its not exactly pretty.
Do the same with a plain Win32 API program and you will see that wxWidgets spares you a lot of work, even if you don't use a dialog construction tool.
Creating .RCs with Notepad is not particularly exciting to me ...
Or effective. Win32 api is very powerful in its own right but nothing effective to code dialogs in. I am talking like the way C# does it. You create a Dialog it builds the raw source for direct interfacing with the API. No fancy toolkit system. Even the rc system of windows is not the best. It true just transforms into static dialogs.
Basicly we lack a good dialog construction tool for Win32/64 that all users can use. That is the true problem. So far no one anywhere in the C and C++ worlds of open source have built one. The closest is in the Asm world. Not exactly friendly. Don't any one say Visual Studio that thing more often than not goes MFC and does not run well on other platform. Visual Studio itself does not run well on other platforms.
VIDE/LCC once had such an editor. It was not as elaborate as is Visual Studio's dialog construction tool, but it worked.
If I remember correctly, it was partially OpenSource.
Screenshot: http://assarbad.info/stuff/tutorials/nonvcl/reseditor.png
Related links: http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~lcc-win32/ (LCC) http://www.objectcentral.com/downloads.htm (source code of VIDE!!!)
VIDE still users a framework. Its framework is Called V. Basicly there is nothing that builds direct Win32 api dialogs.
Note firefox does not use MFC or Wxwidgets it uses its own. Same with OpenOffice. Large project are unlikely to use either more likely to use something of there own construction. Reason suited to there needs..
Right, but these projects use their own *frameworks*. No one in such a big project would ever say: hey, let's use the plain Win32 API, we need no freakin' framework. This is the case because they want to be platform-independent to some extent and because it is insane if they would do it.
So yes, they don't use wxWidgets, GTK, Qt, MFC or whatever else, *but* they *use* some kind of _framework_.
I agree, C has its right to exist and Win32 API as well. If you look at my website you will actually find more direct Win32 API samples than samples using a framework. So it is not that I am against it per-se and tools like Notepad can be conveniently written using the Win32 API only. Even Wordpad, but that's about the size where one should stop and rethink the usage of plain Win32 API and consider creating or using some framework.
Ok I am going to be kinda of plain here. Reactos is a kinda large project. Its normal framework is Win32. No good tools exist for it. Lot of Reactos applications have to be kept small faster and the least amount of overhead. Dialog construction tool for it would make it 10 times simpler. I personally think most people are looking else where because nothing exists in Win32/64 to make it simple.
Cross platform is not exactly a issue here. Win32/64 does fit reactos needs. Just building in Win32/64 is a problem.
Good dialog construction tool would remove lots of the problems.
Peter Dolding
This is all very much besides the point. If you want to build an app in wxWidgets, nobody is stopping you. The core ROS project should remain free of any such dependencies. Any util, app, driver, or service that is apart of ROS should be native win32 api, nothing more. This helps keep bloat down and keeps dependencies from becoming an issue.
(Yes, i DO still lurk here.)
Regards, Richard Campbell
Peter Dolding wrote:
Oliver Schneider wrote:
Why is Win32/64 insane. Ask your self that question. Use wxwidgets without dialog construction tool. You find its not exactly pretty.
Do the same with a plain Win32 API program and you will see that wxWidgets spares you a lot of work, even if you don't use a dialog construction tool.
Creating .RCs with Notepad is not particularly exciting to me ...
Or effective. Win32 api is very powerful in its own right but nothing effective to code dialogs in. I am talking like the way C# does it. You create a Dialog it builds the raw source for direct interfacing with the API. No fancy toolkit system. Even the rc system of windows is not the best. It true just transforms into static dialogs.
Basicly we lack a good dialog construction tool for Win32/64 that all users can use. That is the true problem. So far no one anywhere in the C and C++ worlds of open source have built one. The closest is in the Asm world. Not exactly friendly. Don't any one say Visual Studio that thing more often than not goes MFC and does not run well on other platform. Visual Studio itself does not run well on other platforms.
VIDE/LCC once had such an editor. It was not as elaborate as is Visual Studio's dialog construction tool, but it worked.
If I remember correctly, it was partially OpenSource.
Screenshot: http://assarbad.info/stuff/tutorials/nonvcl/reseditor.png
Related links: http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~lcc-win32/ (LCC) http://www.objectcentral.com/downloads.htm (source code of VIDE!!!)
VIDE still users a framework. Its framework is Called V. Basicly there is nothing that builds direct Win32 api dialogs.
Note firefox does not use MFC or Wxwidgets it uses its own. Same with OpenOffice. Large project are unlikely to use either more likely to use something of there own construction. Reason suited to there needs..
Right, but these projects use their own *frameworks*. No one in such a big project would ever say: hey, let's use the plain Win32 API, we need no freakin' framework. This is the case because they want to be platform-independent to some extent and because it is insane if they would do it.
So yes, they don't use wxWidgets, GTK, Qt, MFC or whatever else, *but* they *use* some kind of _framework_.
I agree, C has its right to exist and Win32 API as well. If you look at my website you will actually find more direct Win32 API samples than samples using a framework. So it is not that I am against it per-se and tools like Notepad can be conveniently written using the Win32 API only. Even Wordpad, but that's about the size where one should stop and rethink the usage of plain Win32 API and consider creating or using some framework.
Ok I am going to be kinda of plain here. Reactos is a kinda large project. Its normal framework is Win32. No good tools exist for it. Lot of Reactos applications have to be kept small faster and the least amount of overhead. Dialog construction tool for it would make it 10 times simpler. I personally think most people are looking else where because nothing exists in Win32/64 to make it simple.
Cross platform is not exactly a issue here. Win32/64 does fit reactos needs. Just building in Win32/64 is a problem.
Good dialog construction tool would remove lots of the problems.
Peter Dolding _______________________________________________ Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
On 9/2/06, Richard eek2121@comcast.net wrote:
This is all very much besides the point. If you want to build an app in wxWidgets, nobody is stopping you. The core ROS project should remain free of any such dependencies. Any util, app, driver, or service that is apart of ROS should be native win32 api, nothing more. This helps keep bloat down and keeps dependencies from becoming an issue.
(Yes, i DO still lurk here.)
Regards, Richard Campbell
Of course, if ROS ever included its own MFC dlls then that would be an option, too, correct?
-ShadowFlare
Oliver Schneider wrote:
VIDE/LCC once had such an editor. It was not as elaborate as is Visual Studio's dialog construction tool, but it worked.
If I remember correctly, it was partially OpenSource.
Screenshot: http://assarbad.info/stuff/tutorials/nonvcl/reseditor.png
Related links: http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~lcc-win32/ (LCC) http://www.objectcentral.com/downloads.htm (source code of VIDE!!!)
I use VIDE as a test tool. It helped in identifying a bug in CreateWindowsEx. Thanks, James
Hi Aleksey Bragin wrote:
It's a matter of taste really.
I know both Win32 API and MFC rather good, and can say that none of them is bad. As for wxWidgets - I didn't use it myself, thus I have no opinion about it.
I use it with Linux and Windows. I've tested Audacity with ros and the only thing missing is our sound subsystem which is caused it to fault out.
WBR, Aleksey Bragin
On Sep 1, 2006, at 7:15 PM, Saveliy Tretiakov wrote:
C++ and librarys like mfc, wxwidgets etc. suck. C and pure winapi is the best thing ever was invented for windows programming.
Thanks, James
-
Aleksey Bragin -
Imre Leber -
James Tabor -
Oliver Schneider -
Peter Dolding -
Richard -
Saveliy Tretiakov -
ShadowFlare