Re: [ros-dev] [ros-diffs] [jimtabor] 37345: - Add path support for ExtTextOut.

[Steven Edwards]

Dmitry,

On Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 2:22 AM, Dmitry Timoshkov
[e-mail] wrote:
> http://www.reactos.org/archives/public/ros-diffs/2008-November/027021.html
>
> Please stop copying Wine code without any copyright and source
> reference into reactos. This became very bad practice from your
> side during last years.

I have no power with the ReactOS project other than to ask and try to
get policy changed in a democratic manner. I've made the case for the
ReactOS to do a better job at proper attribution in code that is
imported based on feedback from you in the past. In fact, just
yesterday I replied to ros-dev proposing some guidelines for how to
handle code imported from Wine. There is nothing more I can do.

I have CC'd Alexandre and Jeremy for there thoughts on the subject. I
welcome feedback from the Software Freedom Law Center or the FSF with
reguards to this issue because on one hand I understand the
attribution is important but on the other hand ReactOS is persona
non-grata with Wine. Given Wine's reluctance to accept any
contributions from ReactOS developers, totally based on guilt by
assocation I think its in your best interested not to be credited. The
Software is still being released under the terms you granted so I
don't see a major violation.
> From the LGPL preamble:

"...Also, if the library is modified by someone else and passed on,
the recipients should know
that what they have is not the original version, so that the original
author's reputation will not be affected by problems that might be
introduced by others."

Clearly the ReactOS developer is doing you a favor by not hurting your
reputation if ReactOS is as Toxic as Wine makes it out to be.

Thanks
-- 
Steven Edwards

"There is one thing stronger than all the armies in the world, and
that is an idea whose time has come." - Victor Hugo

[gedmurphy]

Steven,

You make some good points, which I would say requires little comment or
addition at this stage.
Assuming the Wine guys don't have membership to this list, can you keep us
updated with any correspondence from their side.

Cheers,
Ged.

-----Original Message-----
From: [e-mail] [mailto:[e-mail]] On
Behalf Of Steven Edwards
Sent: 18 November 2008 21:02
To: Dmitry Timoshkov
Cc: Jeremy White; Alexandre Julliard; jimtabor; ReactOS Development List
Subject: Re: [ros-dev] [ros-diffs] [jimtabor] 37345: - Add path support for
ExtTextOut.

Dmitry,

On Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 2:22 AM, Dmitry Timoshkov
[e-mail] wrote:
> http://www.reactos.org/archives/public/ros-diffs/2008-November/027021.html
>
> Please stop copying Wine code without any copyright and source
> reference into reactos. This became very bad practice from your
> side during last years.

I have no power with the ReactOS project other than to ask and try to
get policy changed in a democratic manner. I've made the case for the
ReactOS to do a better job at proper attribution in code that is
imported based on feedback from you in the past. In fact, just
yesterday I replied to ros-dev proposing some guidelines for how to
handle code imported from Wine. There is nothing more I can do.

I have CC'd Alexandre and Jeremy for there thoughts on the subject. I
welcome feedback from the Software Freedom Law Center or the FSF with
reguards to this issue because on one hand I understand the
attribution is important but on the other hand ReactOS is persona
non-grata with Wine. Given Wine's reluctance to accept any
contributions from ReactOS developers, totally based on guilt by
assocation I think its in your best interested not to be credited. The
Software is still being released under the terms you granted so I
don't see a major violation.
> From the LGPL preamble:

"...Also, if the library is modified by someone else and passed on,
the recipients should know
that what they have is not the original version, so that the original
author's reputation will not be affected by problems that might be
introduced by others."

Clearly the ReactOS developer is doing you a favor by not hurting your
reputation if ReactOS is as Toxic as Wine makes it out to be.

Thanks
-- 
Steven Edwards

"There is one thing stronger than all the armies in the world, and
that is an idea whose time has come." - Victor Hugo
_______________________________________________
Ros-dev mailing list
[e-mail]
http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev

[James Tabor]

Tell that dmitry guy that wine is under General Public License (GPL)
and open to coping to other projects with same license. The original
file was from the wine project as well..... We try to make notes to
inform and post source information in our source and commit messages.
This is very legal and proper practice.

Here is the real issue,,,, we are proving wine is from RE sources and
we are proving it very well........

This is another of many attempts to counter the improvements and
advances to this project via a back door..... NO ONE from that project
has contacted me..... ..... ...  This in itself is an interesting
point..... ..... .. .

On Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 3:02 PM, Steven Edwards [e-mail] wrote:
> Dmitry,
>
> On Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 2:22 AM, Dmitry Timoshkov
> [e-mail] wrote:
> > http://www.reactos.org/archives/public/ros-diffs/2008-November/027021.html
> >
> > Please stop copying Wine code without any copyright and source
> > reference into reactos. This became very bad practice from your
> > side during last years.
>
> I have no power with the ReactOS project other than to ask and try to
> get policy changed in a democratic manner. I've made the case for the
> ReactOS to do a better job at proper attribution in code that is
> imported based on feedback from you in the past. In fact, just
> yesterday I replied to ros-dev proposing some guidelines for how to
> handle code imported from Wine. There is nothing more I can do.
>
> I have CC'd Alexandre and Jeremy for there thoughts on the subject. I
> welcome feedback from the Software Freedom Law Center or the FSF with
> reguards to this issue because on one hand I understand the
> attribution is important but on the other hand ReactOS is persona
> non-grata with Wine. Given Wine's reluctance to accept any
> contributions from ReactOS developers, totally based on guilt by
> assocation I think its in your best interested not to be credited. The
> Software is still being released under the terms you granted so I
> don't see a major violation.
> > From the LGPL preamble:
>
> "...Also, if the library is modified by someone else and passed on,
> the recipients should know
> that what they have is not the original version, so that the original
> author's reputation will not be affected by problems that might be
> introduced by others."

Must I say more?
> Clearly the ReactOS developer is doing you a favor by not hurting your
> reputation if ReactOS is as Toxic as Wine makes it out to be.
> Thanks
>
> Steven Edwards

[Daniel Reimer]

James Tabor wrote:
> Tell that dmitry guy that wine is under General Public License (GPL)
> and open to coping to other projects with same license. The original
> file was from the wine project as well..... We try to make notes to
> inform and post source information in our source and commit messages.
> This is very legal and proper practice.
>
> Here is the real issue,,,, we are proving wine is from RE sources and
> we are proving it very well........
>
> This is another of many attempts to counter the improvements and
> advances to this project via a back door..... NO ONE from that project
> has contacted me..... ..... ...  This in itself is an interesting
> point..... ..... .. .
>
> On Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 3:02 PM, Steven [e-mail]  wrote:
> > Dmitry,
> >
> > On Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 2:22 AM, Dmitry Timoshkov
> > [e-mail]  wrote:
> > > http://www.reactos.org/archives/public/ros-diffs/2008-November/027021.html
> > >
> > > Please stop copying Wine code without any copyright and source
> > > reference into reactos. This became very bad practice from your
> > > side during last years.
> >
> > I have no power with the ReactOS project other than to ask and try to
> > get policy changed in a democratic manner. I've made the case for the
> > ReactOS to do a better job at proper attribution in code that is
> > imported based on feedback from you in the past. In fact, just
> > yesterday I replied to ros-dev proposing some guidelines for how to
> > handle code imported from Wine. There is nothing more I can do.
> >
> > I have CC'd Alexandre and Jeremy for there thoughts on the subject. I
> > welcome feedback from the Software Freedom Law Center or the FSF with
> > reguards to this issue because on one hand I understand the
> > attribution is important but on the other hand ReactOS is persona
> > non-grata with Wine. Given Wine's reluctance to accept any
> > contributions from ReactOS developers, totally based on guilt by
> > assocation I think its in your best interested not to be credited. The
> > Software is still being released under the terms you granted so I
> > don't see a major violation.
> > > From the LGPL preamble:
> >
> > "...Also, if the library is modified by someone else and passed on,
> > the recipients should know
> > that what they have is not the original version, so that the original
> > author's reputation will not be affected by problems that might be
> > introduced by others."
>
> Must I say more?
> > Clearly the ReactOS developer is doing you a favor by not hurting your
> > reputation if ReactOS is as Toxic as Wine makes it out to be.
> > Thanks
> >
> > Steven Edwards
>
> Ros-dev mailing list
> [e-mail]
> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev

I second Steven's thoughts. Regardless how Wine Headquartes thinks about 
us. If we don't credit their work we use, then we are not better than 
some of them are. I don't know how the others think, but I want to 
behave better than some Wine PPL do. Lets add a rule, which forces our 
devs to add the Name of the Original Author to (L)GPLed Code he adds at 
least.

Opinions plz.

[Maya Posch]

I agree with Daniel, no matter what Wine thinks or does, we should 
always be the example of how things _should_ be done, and not allow us 
to descend into childish actions and/or bickering. We should ask Wine to 
make it as easy as possible to attribute the right person when we use 
their code, but beyond that we can't do anything else.

Let's just do our best, shall we? :)

Maya

Daniel Reimer wrote:
> I second Steven's thoughts. Regardless how Wine Headquartes thinks about 
> us. If we don't credit their work we use, then we are not better than 
> some of them are. I don't know how the others think, but I want to 
> behave better than some Wine PPL do. Lets add a rule, which forces our 
> devs to add the Name of the Original Author to (L)GPLed Code he adds at 
> least.
>
> Opinions plz.
> _______________________________________________
> Ros-dev mailing list
> [e-mail]
> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev

[gedmurphy]

Daniel Reimer wrote:
> Lets add a rule, which forces our 
> devs to add the Name of the Original Author to (L)GPLed Code he adds at 
> least.

We've already discussed this, have you not been reading ros-dev?
How exactly do you propose this is done?
Let's say you implement a function in our win32k, based on Wine code. How
exactly would you realistically discover which Wine dev wrote that function,
and if the function was merely _based_ on wine code, which parts of the
function would you attribute credit to, and how would you do it?

Your idea isn't as simple as it first appears.

Ged.

[Maya Posch]

The thing is that the issue is not at our side. We do our best, we ask 
Wine nicely whether they could make it easy/easier for us to see who 
contributed which code.

We shouldn't have to dig through all Wine SVN commits just see who 
contributed which (piece of) code/patch.

Reasonable effort is what it's about.

Maya

gedmurphy wrote:
> Daniel Reimer wrote:
> > Lets add a rule, which forces our 
> > devs to add the Name of the Original Author to (L)GPLed Code he adds at 
> > least.
>
> We've already discussed this, have you not been reading ros-dev?
> How exactly do you propose this is done?
> Let's say you implement a function in our win32k, based on Wine code. How
> exactly would you realistically discover which Wine dev wrote that function,
> and if the function was merely _based_ on wine code, which parts of the
> function would you attribute credit to, and how would you do it?
>
> Your idea isn't as simple as it first appears.
>
> Ged.
>
> Ros-dev mailing list
> [e-mail]
> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev