***SPAM*** Goodbye Everyone...

[Richard]

Well, it's been fun, however i believe it is time for me to leave.  
ReactOS really has fallen to pieces and it's going to take a long time 
(years) to get things back on track.  What really annoys me about this 
entire thing is that waaay back in the earlier days of ROS (before 0.1) 
Things were fun.  Nothing worked, but things were fun.  Development on 
ROS was actually HAPPENING (I know this because I myself was part of 
it).  Since then things started changing.  New developers appeared, a 
lot of flame wars were breaking out, etc.  I stayed on the list, pitched 
in my 2 cents, etc.  Though i stopped coding for the most part.  Now it 
turns out that developers were using dirty room reverse engineering 
tactics, or have had access to the source code.  I almost left then, but 
i figured i'd give it a little bit longer and see what happens.  Now I 
see a bunch of arguing on the mailing list, ROS development has stopped, 
and I'm doubting it'll resume again for a long time, and things have 
just pretty well fallen apart.  Even IF the audit is completed, ROS will 
likely be in pieces.  It will NEVER be at the level it was before the audit.

Anyways, I believe it is time to start anew.  New project, different 
name, different goals.

Until Then,
Bye.

Richard Campbell
ReactOS Developer and Long Time Fan

[Steven Edwards]

Hi Richard,

On 2/15/06, Richard <eek2121(a)comcast.net> wrote:
>   Anyways, I believe it is time to start anew.  New
> project, different
>  name, different goals. 
We seem to be a ship that is taking on water. The only consolation I
can give you is that the old tree will be restored somewhere as per
the vote. From there auditing should take place.

--
Steven Edwards

"There is one thing stronger than all the armies in the world, and
that is an idea whose time has come." - Victor Hugo

[mf]

Steven Edwards wrote:

>   We seem to be a ship that is taking on water. 
Gee, if that's the attitude our Project Coordinator, role model and 
source of inspiration for the project, is taking, then I don't know what 
I should think. Are you just acting this unoptimistic because you feel 
like a captain who's almost got mutiny on his hands, or is it some other 
reason? From everything I've seen, I'd say things are looking up lately. 
But that's just my humble opinion.

mf.

[KJKHyperion]

Steven Edwards wrote:

> >  Anyways, I
> > believe it is time to start anew.  New project, different name, different goals.
> >     
> >  
> We seem to be a ship that is taking on water. The only consolation I can give you
> is that the old tree will be restored somewhere as per the vote. From there auditing
> should take place.
>  
Voting is stupid. Auditing is stupid. Policies are stupid. Why is 
ReactOS dying? because coders cannot code anymore. Here's your crisis. 
All this trumpeting about the audit is stupid, and I seriously want to 
kick in the face whoever actually believes in it. It's only a convenient 
lie you all like to believe in

For the love of god, unlock the repository and resume the coding. Nobody 
wants the audit, and as it stands now it's completely useless - if 
there's dubious code, let someone _else_ do the audit. In the USA you 
have the DMCA, ok, but you have presumption of innocence too, so, christ 
almighty, use it. Let _Microsoft_ waste resources trying to demonstrate 
a copyright violation. Let them prove the reversing wasn't clean-room, 
if that's even possible (let _them_ find out if it is). You are digging 
your own graves, you don't even know who the "enemy" is and have never 
faced it. This is suicide. Legally we were and we are in no danger, you 
KNOW it's always been a matter of PR, but someone HAD to fuck it up 
royally (hey Hartmut, please eat shit and die. This is all your own 
fucking fault. Hope you're happy with the outcome of your sissy drama) 
and turn us into instant celebrities. Relax, chill, you cannot outdo 
Wine, PR-wise, they have investors, we don't - so why act like we did 
do, with all the issues and none of the benefits?

We don't need good PR, we need fucking CODE. Wasn't becoming a ReactOS 
developer a matter of trust and social networking? This used to be the 
beauty of it, that you didn't have to sign away your soul to 
partecipate. And I don't see what makes you believe that adding barriers 
will be beneficial - has it ever worked? EVER?

This is an open source project. Code is all that matters. No code 
flowing in, project dies

*****

Mr. Project Coordinator, take some risks, show some balls, be a fucking 
asshole about it if you have to, and recall the audit. It's only been a 
glorious display of weakness and ineptitude so far. You know it's 
killing the project while doing NO GOOD WHATSOEVER to it, save for 
HYPOTHETICAL, FUTURE and all-in-all IRRELEVANT benefits

Wine can ultimately suck dick, if that's what you're worried about. 
They're using a public license, they cannot revoke it. So if they don't 
like our policies, so long. We can parasite them, they cannot parasite 
us, all their loss if they want to turn it into a one-way relationship 
because mr. Investor has his ass itching about bad PR from us and 
Alexandre has to scratch him

Please let the code flow again. Let people do what they want to do

[mf]

KJKHyperion wrote:
>   Steven Edwards wrote:
>  
> > >   Anyways,
> > > I believe it is time to start anew.  New project, different 
> > >  name, different goals.
> > >     
> >  We seem to be a ship that is taking on water. The only consolation I 
> >  can give you is that the old tree will be restored somewhere as per 
> >  the vote. From there auditing should take place.
> >  
>  Voting is stupid. Auditing is stupid. Policies are stupid. Why is 
>  ReactOS dying? because coders cannot code anymore. Here's your crisis. 
>  All this trumpeting about the audit is stupid, and I seriously want to 
>  kick in the face whoever actually believes in it. It's only a convenient 
>  lie you all like to believe in
>  
>  For the love of god, unlock the repository and resume the coding. Nobody 
>  wants the audit, and as it stands now it's completely useless - if 
>  there's dubious code, let someone _else_ do the audit. In the USA you 
>  have the DMCA, ok, but you have presumption of innocence too, so, christ 
>  almighty, use it. Let _Microsoft_ waste resources trying to demonstrate 
>  a copyright violation. Let them prove the reversing wasn't clean-room, 
>  if that's even possible (let _them_ find out if it is). You are digging 
>  your own graves, you don't even know who the "enemy" is and have never 
>  faced it. This is suicide. Legally we were and we are in no danger, you 
>  KNOW it's always been a matter of PR, but someone HAD to fuck it up 
>  royally (hey Hartmut, please eat shit and die. This is all your own 
>  fucking fault. Hope you're happy with the outcome of your sissy drama) 
>  and turn us into instant celebrities. Relax, chill, you cannot outdo 
>  Wine, PR-wise, they have investors, we don't - so why act like we did 
>  do, with all the issues and none of the benefits?
>  
>  We don't need good PR, we need fucking CODE. Wasn't becoming a ReactOS 
>  developer a matter of trust and social networking? This used to be the 
>  beauty of it, that you didn't have to sign away your soul to 
>  partecipate. And I don't see what makes you believe that adding barriers 
>  will be beneficial - has it ever worked? EVER?
>  
>  This is an open source project. Code is all that matters. No code 
>  flowing in, project dies
>  
>  *****
>  
>  Mr. Project Coordinator, take some risks, show some balls, be a fucking 
>  asshole about it if you have to, and recall the audit. It's only been a 
>  glorious display of weakness and ineptitude so far. You know it's 
>  killing the project while doing NO GOOD WHATSOEVER to it, save for 
>  HYPOTHETICAL, FUTURE and all-in-all IRRELEVANT benefits
>  
>  Wine can ultimately suck dick, if that's what you're worried about. 
>  They're using a public license, they cannot revoke it. So if they don't 
>  like our policies, so long. We can parasite them, they cannot parasite 
>  us, all their loss if they want to turn it into a one-way relationship 
>  because mr. Investor has his ass itching about bad PR from us and 
>  Alexandre has to scratch him
>  
>  Please let the code flow again. Let people do what they want to do 
^-- What he said.

Great mail, KJK. People are standing up. First GreatLord, now you. This 
brings a smile on my face. Time to stop taking crap from everyone.

mf.

[Brandon Turner]

KJKHyperion wrote:

>   Steven Edwards wrote:
>
> > >   Anyways,
> > > I believe it is time to start anew.  New project, different 
> > >  name, different goals.
> > >     
> >  We seem to be a ship that is taking on water. The only consolation I 
> >  can give you is that the old tree will be restored somewhere as per 
> >  the vote. From there auditing should take place.
> >  
>  Voting is stupid. Auditing is stupid. Policies are stupid. Why is 
>  ReactOS dying? because coders cannot code anymore. Here's your crisis. 
>  All this trumpeting about the audit is stupid, and I seriously want to 
>  kick in the face whoever actually believes in it. It's only a 
>  convenient lie you all like to believe in
>
>  For the love of god, unlock the repository and resume the coding. 
>  Nobody wants the audit, and as it stands now it's completely useless - 
>  if there's dubious code, let someone _else_ do the audit. In the USA 
>  you have the DMCA, ok, but you have presumption of innocence too, so, 
>  christ almighty, use it. Let _Microsoft_ waste resources trying to 
>  demonstrate a copyright violation. Let them prove the reversing wasn't 
>  clean-room, if that's even possible (let _them_ find out if it is). 
>  You are digging your own graves, you don't even know who the "enemy" 
>  is and have never faced it. This is suicide. Legally we were and we 
>  are in no danger, you KNOW it's always been a matter of PR, but 
>  someone HAD to fuck it up royally (hey Hartmut, please eat shit and 
>  die. This is all your own fucking fault. Hope you're happy with the 
>  outcome of your sissy drama) and turn us into instant celebrities. 
>  Relax, chill, you cannot outdo Wine, PR-wise, they have investors, we 
>  don't - so why act like we did do, with all the issues and none of the 
>  benefits?
>
>  We don't need good PR, we need fucking CODE. Wasn't becoming a ReactOS 
>  developer a matter of trust and social networking? This used to be the 
>  beauty of it, that you didn't have to sign away your soul to 
>  partecipate. And I don't see what makes you believe that adding 
>  barriers will be beneficial - has it ever worked? EVER?
>
>  This is an open source project. Code is all that matters. No code 
>  flowing in, project dies
>
>  *****
>
>  Mr. Project Coordinator, take some risks, show some balls, be a 
>  fucking asshole about it if you have to, and recall the audit. It's 
>  only been a glorious display of weakness and ineptitude so far. You 
>  know it's killing the project while doing NO GOOD WHATSOEVER to it, 
>  save for HYPOTHETICAL, FUTURE and all-in-all IRRELEVANT benefits
>
>  Wine can ultimately suck dick, if that's what you're worried about. 
>  They're using a public license, they cannot revoke it. So if they 
>  don't like our policies, so long. We can parasite them, they cannot 
>  parasite us, all their loss if they want to turn it into a one-way 
>  relationship because mr. Investor has his ass itching about bad PR 
>  from us and Alexandre has to scratch him
>
>  Please let the code flow again. Let people do what they want to do
>  _______________________________________________
>  Ros-dev mailing list
>  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
>  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>
>  
+++++

Brandon

[Juan Rodriguez]

I totally agree with Hyperion, not to mention that even the last version 
was far away from beeing really usable/stable as an os should be at least.
I know there is much work that has been done, but as i recall the 
project was to make an os able of beeing an alternative to windows 
itself, politics and such, are matters that should be discusssed after 
the project has taken form, and imho it is not. So lets code and stop 
bitching about politics.

[James Tabor]

KJKHyperion wrote:
>   Voting is stupid. Auditing is stupid. Policies are
> stupid. Why is 
>  ReactOS dying? because coders cannot code anymore.  
Hell Yes! DITTO! Good read!

Real interesting things that caused all this bull shit! Money? Manipulation?



Free ReactOS!
Free ReactOS!
Free ReactOS!
Free ReactOS!
Free ReactOS!
Free ReactOS!
Free ReactOS!
Free ReactOS!
James

[Michael Fritscher]

>   KJKHyperion wrote:
> > Voting is stupid. Auditing is stupid. Policies are stupid. Why is
> > ReactOS dying? because coders cannot code anymore. 
I totally agree here!
Whoever want the code can get it anyway, so why hiding it?

[Steven Edwards]

On 2/16/06, Michael Fritscher <michael(a)fritscher.net> wrote:
>   Whoever want the code can get it anyway, so why hiding
> it? 
Its not a matter of hiding. Its a question of distribution. If you
think that the current ReactOS code is a derived work of copyrighted
Windows code which was copied via improper reverse engineering then it
becomes a legal question of distributing third party copyrighted
material.

--
Steven Edwards

"There is one thing stronger than all the armies in the world, and
that is an idea whose time has come." - Victor Hugo

[Steven Edwards]

On 2/16/06, KJKHyperion <hackbunny(a)reactos.com> wrote:
>   For the love of god, unlock the repository and resume
> the coding. Nobody
>  wants the audit, and as it stands now it's completely useless - if
>  there's dubious code, let someone _else_ do the audit. In the USA you
>  have the DMCA, ok, but you have presumption of innocence too, so, christ
>  almighty, use it. Let _Microsoft_ waste resources trying to demonstrate
>  a copyright violation. Let them prove the reversing wasn't clean-room,
>  if that's even possible (let _them_ find out if it is). You are digging
>  your own graves, you don't even know who the "enemy" is and have never
>  faced it. This is suicide. Legally we were and we are in no danger, you
>  KNOW it's always been a matter of PR, but someone HAD to fuck it up
>  royally (hey Hartmut, please eat shit and die. This is all your own
>  fucking fault. Hope you're happy with the outcome of your sissy drama)
>  and turn us into instant celebrities. Relax, chill, you cannot outdo
>  Wine, PR-wise, they have investors, we don't - so why act like we did
>  do, with all the issues and none of the benefits? 
I swear it seems like fewer and fewer people have any concept of "good
faith". The whole point of auditing the code was that we would make a
good faith effort to remove code that we know to not be implemented
cleanly. Alex himself admitted that 99% of everything he wrote was by
knowledge gained straight from disassembles. Its not like anyone would
have to try very hard to make a case.

In regards to investors, before all of this mess I was making good
progress with the $100 laptop people and many members of the
FreeSoftware Foundation. Go check out David Sugars article on why he
thought ReactOS was a good idea. The tide was turning in my
discussions with business interests.

>   We don't need good PR, we need fucking CODE.
> Wasn't becoming a ReactOS
>  developer a matter of trust and social networking? This used to be the
>  beauty of it, that you didn't have to sign away your soul to
>  partecipate. And I don't see what makes you believe that adding barriers
>  will be beneficial - has it ever worked? EVER? 
Yes we have CODE. And 90% of the kernel from the past two years is a
derived work.

>   This is an open source project. Code is all that
> matters. No code
>  flowing in, project dies 
If its copied Microsoft code then it does not matter. See top.


>   Mr. Project Coordinator, take some risks, show some
> balls, be a fucking
>  asshole about it if you have to, and recall the audit. It's only been a
>  glorious display of weakness and ineptitude so far. You know it's
>  killing the project while doing NO GOOD WHATSOEVER to it, save for
>  HYPOTHETICAL, FUTURE and all-in-all IRRELEVANT benefits 
If you want to see me be a asshole then I will fork the project myself
and impose my dictatorship on the new project. Otherwise we will stick
with the processes we have agreed upon. Guess what.....the B vote won.
I disagree with it but thats what ReactOS is going to do. Someone is
going to have to setup a new SVN repo with the old SVN as Exception is
leaving. So do me a favor and wake up to the facts, this project is
sinking by its own choices.

I tried to warn most of ReactOS Core in private over the past two
years that a situation was coming that would blow out of control.

>   Wine can ultimately suck dick, if that's what
> you're worried about.
>  They're using a public license, they cannot revoke it. So if they don't
>  like our policies, so long. We can parasite them, they cannot parasite
>  us, all their loss if they want to turn it into a one-way relationship
>  because mr. Investor has his ass itching about bad PR from us and
>  Alexandre has to scratch him 
No at this point I am not worried about anything. I have sat by and
watched more and more people that I enjoyed working with over the
years say they were leaving:

Thomas, Emanual, Blight, Exception, Ge, Richard, Hartmut and others.

--
Steven Edwards

"There is one thing stronger than all the armies in the world, and
that is an idea whose time has come." - Victor Hugo

[James Tabor]

Steven Edwards wrote:
>   
>  Thomas, Emanual, Blight, Exception, Ge, Richard, Hartmut and others.
>   
No Thomas did not leave due to the rev eng stuff, he left due to the
code freeze and the foreseen set back it would cause.

Don't group him with the rest.
James