Microsoft Office files in the trunk

[Mike Swanson]

In the branch of press-media, there are two documents currently. An MS
Word and MS PowerPoint document.

I'm calling for SVN committers for _no more_ MS Office documents. They
are a proprietary format, of which not all the features are currently
known. I recommend instead the use of OASIS OpenDocument. Not only
does it save much space, but it also does not contain any secrets in
which need to be reverse engineered to discover.

Real life example:
I opened the MS Word flyer into AbiWord, and saw strange boxes. I
wondered what they could be, so I loaded very-large OpenOffice.org.
They are images! Not only that, but the formatting was drastically
different in OOo compared to AbiWord. However, in OOo, it did look a
lot more jumbled than the image-less AbiWord interpretation. Without a
copy of Microsoft Office, I am unable to determine how the documents
really should look.
I am able to open the PowerPoint file in OpenOffice.org too, but as
it's the only presentation software I have, I can't tell to see if
there's any other interpretation differences between free presentation
programs (assuming they support PPT . . . )

OpenDocument isn't just some crazy format that a couple of programs
support, either. Two complete office suits which support it are
OpenOffice.org and KOffice. Two examples of individual applications
supporting it are AbiWord and Gnumeric. By far, these are not the only
programs which support it, the number is in the dozens. It's an
XML-based format (easy to implement), compressed with Info-ZIP's
DEFLATE.
Really, Microsoft is the only developer that refuses to use this open
file format. They claim that "it doesn't support all the features of
Office", but even that shouldn't stop them (weather it's true or not),
after all, they use _far_ more limiting formats like plain text or
CSV.

Please, for the good of the project, use the free OpenDocument format.
If not for the reason of being open or free, but simply for the fact
that it ensures that everybody will be able to view such documents (no
need to buy any pricey office suites here!).
--
Mike

[Steven Edwards]

Hi Mike,

--- Mike Swanson <mikeonthecomputer(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>   In the branch of press-media, there are two documents
> currently. An MS
>  Word and MS PowerPoint document.
>  
>  I'm calling for SVN committers for _no more_ MS Office documents. They
>  are a proprietary format, of which not all the features are currently
>  known. I recommend instead the use of OASIS OpenDocument. Not only
>  does it save much space, but it also does not contain any secrets in
>  which need to be reverse engineered to discover. 
If the developers vote for it I have no problem abiding by that. That being said I am not
going to
call for a vote on it right now. I am more productive in Microsoft Office than I am in
OpenOffice
when it comes to presentations and I don't really want to be strong armed in to any
format (open
or closed). I chose Powerpoint because I KNOW every single Windows+Office system in the
world can
view my presentation. I am happy to make duplicates of my stuff in OpenDocument but I
don't want
to be forced in to it.

Thanks
Steven



		
__________________________________ 
Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click.
http://farechase.yahoo.com

[Michael B. Trausch]

Steven Edwards wrote:
>   
>  If the developers vote for it I have no problem abiding by that. That
>  being said I am not going to call for a vote on it right now. I am
>  more productive in Microsoft Office than I am in OpenOffice when it
>  comes to presentations and I don't really want to be strong armed in
>  to any format (open or closed). I chose Powerpoint because I KNOW
>  every single Windows+Office system in the world can view my
>  presentation. I am happy to make duplicates of my stuff in
>  OpenDocument but I don't want to be forced in to it.
>   
You do not need to feel strongarmed into using Impress' file format.
You can save it in Impress' file format as well as exporting it to
Microsoft's PowerPoint format.  Just an idea.

	- Mike

-- 
Michael B. Trausch                                      fd0man(a)gmail.com
AIM: MB Trausch                             Jabber:  mtrausch(a)jabber.com

[Mike Swanson]

Well, I'm sorry that I might feel like I'm pushing a non-MS Office
supported too much, but on the other hand, MS Office files aren't
supported very well by non-MS programs themselves. Unless Microsoft
implements OpenDocument, I'm afraid we are stuck in a hole... unless
it's still possible to write plugins for MS Office (eg, one to
save/read OpenDocument). I heard that the plugin-ability of MS Office
has been getting smaller as it became the dominant suite.

On 11/10/05, Michael B. Trausch <fd0man(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>   Steven Edwards wrote:
> >  
> >  If the developers vote for it I have no problem abiding by that. That
> >  being said I am not going to call for a vote on it right now. I am
> >  more productive in Microsoft Office than I am in OpenOffice when it
> >  comes to presentations and I don't really want to be strong armed in
> >  to any format (open or closed). I chose Powerpoint because I KNOW
> >  every single Windows+Office system in the world can view my
> >  presentation. I am happy to make duplicates of my stuff in
> >  OpenDocument but I don't want to be forced in to it.
> >  
>  You do not need to feel strongarmed into using Impress' file format.
>  You can save it in Impress' file format as well as exporting it to
>  Microsoft's PowerPoint format.  Just an idea. 
Just because Impress supports PowerPoint documents, doesn't meant it's
complete or perfect. Just like the DOC (Word) and XLS (Excel) formats,
it's secret and must be reverse engineered. And similar to DOC and
XLS, the non-Microsoft parsing of them changes between free software
programs. Sometimes better in some documents, sometimes worse in
other. Hell, sometimes it's impossible to see what the document was
even intended to look like (eg, the MS Word-created flyer I was trying
to see)
--
Mike

[Michael B. Trausch]

Mike Swanson wrote:
[snip]
> > >   
> >  You do not need to feel strongarmed into using
> > Impress' file format.
> >  You can save it in Impress' file format as well as exporting it to
> >  Microsoft's PowerPoint format.  Just an idea. 
>  
>  Just because Impress supports PowerPoint documents, doesn't meant it's
>  complete or perfect. Just like the DOC (Word) and XLS (Excel) formats,
>  it's secret and must be reverse engineered. And similar to DOC and
>  XLS, the non-Microsoft parsing of them changes between free software
>  programs. Sometimes better in some documents, sometimes worse in
>  other. Hell, sometimes it's impossible to see what the document was
>  even intended to look like (eg, the MS Word-created flyer I was trying
>  to see)
>   
I understand.  Perhaps I didn't say what I was meaning to:  If OO.o is
used to generate the document, OO.o will parse it the same way.  I was
saying that if the proprietary formats are "needed," then OO.o can save
them -- interoperability works nearly perfectly, IME, going from OO.o to
Office, however, coming back from the other direction seems to break
with documents with more advanced formatting.  While I'm sure they're
working on it, I try to avoid them, anyway.  I hate proprietary stuff,
and avoid whenever possible.  (And no:  I'm not quite as bad as some
people on the subject, such as RMS.)

	 - Mike

-- 
Michael B. Trausch                                      fd0man(a)gmail.com
AIM: MB Trausch                             Jabber:  mtrausch(a)jabber.com

[Les Cooper]

Michael B. Trausch wrote:

>  Mike Swanson wrote:
> [snip]
>   
>
> > >  You do not
> > > need to feel strongarmed into using Impress' file format.
> > > You can save it in Impress' file format as well as exporting it to
> > > Microsoft's PowerPoint format.  Just an idea.
> > >       
> > >  
> > Just because Impress supports PowerPoint documents, doesn't meant it's
> > complete or perfect. Just like the DOC (Word) and XLS (Excel) formats,
> > it's secret and must be reverse engineered. And similar to DOC and
> > XLS, the non-Microsoft parsing of them changes between free software
> > programs. Sometimes better in some documents, sometimes worse in
> > other. Hell, sometimes it's impossible to see what the document was
> > even intended to look like (eg, the MS Word-created flyer I was trying
> > to see)
> >
> >     
> >  
> I understand.  Perhaps I didn't say what I was meaning to:  If OO.o is
> used to generate the document, OO.o will parse it the same way.  I was
> saying that if the proprietary formats are "needed," then OO.o can save
> them -- interoperability works nearly perfectly, IME, going from OO.o to
> Office, however, coming back from the other direction seems to break
> with documents with more advanced formatting.  While I'm sure they're
> working on it, I try to avoid them, anyway.  I hate proprietary stuff,
> and avoid whenever possible.  (And no:  I'm not quite as bad as some
> people on the subject, such as RMS.)
>   
>  
I only use OO.o but my default save format is as ms office formats. Such a small
percentage of (ordinary) people use OO.o, that to produce files in its own format is
pissing into the wind. However, I can tell people how the files were produced and
recommend OO.o to them. The important thing at the moment is not the use of open document
formats, it is persuading people to use OO.o so that the user base is broad enough for
them to used! 
Cheers
Les

[David Johnson]

Chuck E. Cheese, CEC entertainment Inc. only uses OOo. Just FYI

On 11/10/05, Les Cooper <leigh-cottage(a)tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
>  
>  Michael B. Trausch wrote:
>
> >  Mike Swanson wrote:
> > [snip]
> >
> >
> > > >  You do not
> > > > need to feel strongarmed into using Impress' file format.
> > > > You can save it in Impress' file format as well as exporting it to
> > > > Microsoft's PowerPoint format. Just an idea.
> > > >
> > > >  
> > > Just because Impress supports PowerPoint documents, doesn't meant it's
> > > complete or perfect. Just like the DOC (Word) and XLS (Excel) formats,
> > > it's secret and must be reverse engineered. And similar to DOC and
> > > XLS, the non-Microsoft parsing of them changes between free software
> > > programs. Sometimes better in some documents, sometimes worse in
> > > other. Hell, sometimes it's impossible to see what the document was
> > > even intended to look like (eg, the MS Word-created flyer I was trying
> > > to see)
> > >
> > >
> > >  
> > I understand. Perhaps I didn't say what I was meaning to: If OO.o is
> > used to generate the document, OO.o will parse it the same way. I was
> > saying that if the proprietary formats are "needed," then OO.o can save
> > them -- interoperability works nearly perfectly, IME, going from OO.o to
> > Office, however, coming back from the other direction seems to break
> > with documents with more advanced formatting. While I'm sure they're
> > working on it, I try to avoid them, anyway. I hate proprietary stuff,
> > and avoid whenever possible. (And no: I'm not quite as bad as some
> > people on the subject, such as RMS.)
> >
> >  
>  I only use OO.o but my default save format is as ms office formats. Such a
>  small percentage of (ordinary) people use OO.o, that to produce files in
>  its own format is pissing into the wind. However, I can tell people how the
>  files were produced and recommend OO.o to them. The important thing at the
>  moment is not the use of open document formats, it is persuading people to
>  use OO.o so that the user base is broad enough for them to used!
>  Cheers
>  Les
>  _______________________________________________
>  Ros-dev mailing list
>  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
>  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>  


--
David Johnson
http://www.davefilms.us

[Mike Swanson]

Before OASIS OpenDocument was proposed to the public (pushed by the
European Union itself, to rid themselves of using a format that'd be
tied to a specific application, free or not), the format that
documents should be in wasn't really standardized. There's many that
claim that Microsoft's formats are standard, while not everything
about the formats are known outside of Microsoft. Then there's the
pseudo-standards like Rich Text or CSV that often get the job done,
but have serious limitations (and even extensions by things like Corel
or Microsoft that reduce those formats interoperatability).

OpenDocument truely promises to be the cure for this. It was developed
by an idependent organization (not Sun or anyone else), and the format
allows for virtually every feature expected in an office suite. And
the beauty of being XML is that if you are writting a program, and its
missing a feature, another program will ignore that section of code
and instead display what it can (hopefully not down to _just_ the bare
content; but at least it'd be readable).

And on top of this, the claim/assumption that OpenOffice.org is the
only program that supports it is simply not true. KOffice implemented
OpenDocument far before OOo 2.0 went into the production stage.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenDocument#Applications_supporting_OpenDocum…

My plea for not using a Microsoft format does not call for a format
that only a few applications support, even though it's open (eg, the
AbiWord XML format isn't widely supported). Nor does it call for an
extremely limited format like Rich Text Format. It calls for a
fully-featured, well supported (and more applications to come, for
sure), and open format.

On 11/10/05, David Johnson <davidjohnson.johnson(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>   Chuck E. Cheese, CEC entertainment Inc. only uses OOo.
> Just FYI
>
>
>  On 11/10/05, Les Cooper <leigh-cottage(a)tiscali.co.uk > wrote:
> >   Michael B. Trausch wrote:
> >
> > >  Mike Swanson wrote:
> > > [snip]
> > >
> > >
> > > >  >You do not need to feel strongarmed into using
> > > > Impress' file format.
> > > > >You can save it in Impress' file format as well as exporting it to
> > > > >Microsoft's PowerPoint format.  Just an idea.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > Just because Impress supports PowerPoint documents, doesn't meant it's
> > > > complete or perfect. Just like the DOC (Word) and XLS (Excel) formats,
> > > > it's secret and must be reverse engineered. And similar to DOC and
> > > > XLS, the non-Microsoft parsing of them changes between free software
> > > > programs. Sometimes better in some documents, sometimes worse in
> > > > other. Hell, sometimes it's impossible to see what the document was
> > > > even intended to look like (eg, the MS Word-created flyer I was trying
> > > > to see)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >  
> > > I understand.  Perhaps I didn't say what I was meaning to:  If OO.o is
> > > used to generate the document, OO.o will parse it the same way.  I was
> > > saying that if the proprietary formats are "needed," then OO.o can save
> > > them -- interoperability works nearly perfectly, IME, going from OO.o to
> > > Office, however, coming back from the other direction seems to break
> > > with documents with more advanced formatting.  While I'm sure they're
> > > working on it, I try to avoid them, anyway.  I hate proprietary stuff,
> > > and avoid whenever possible.  (And no:  I'm not quite as bad as some
> > > people on the subject, such as RMS.)
> > >
> > >  
> >  I only use OO.o but my default save format is as ms office formats. Such a 
> small percentage of (ordinary) people use OO.o, that to produce files in its
>  own format is pissing into the wind. However, I can tell people how the
>  files were produced and recommend OO.o to them. The important thing at the
>  moment is not the use of open document formats, it is persuading people to
>  use OO.o so that the user base is broad enough for them to used!
> >   Cheers
> >  Les
> >  _______________________________________________
> >  Ros-dev mailing list
> >  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
> >  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> >  
>
>
>  --
>  David Johnson
>  http://www.davefilms.us
>  _______________________________________________
>  Ros-dev mailing list
>  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
>  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>
>  

--
Mike

[Brandon Turner]

Hi,
I put a copied of the flyer and presentation in pdf and native open 
office style in r19121.  We(I) will try to keep these formats with 
updated content in the doc and ppt.

Brandon

Mike Swanson wrote:

>  In the branch of press-media, there are two documents
> currently. An MS
> Word and MS PowerPoint document.
>
> I'm calling for SVN committers for _no more_ MS Office documents. They
> are a proprietary format, of which not all the features are currently
> known. I recommend instead the use of OASIS OpenDocument. Not only
> does it save much space, but it also does not contain any secrets in
> which need to be reverse engineered to discover.
>
> Real life example:
> I opened the MS Word flyer into AbiWord, and saw strange boxes. I
> wondered what they could be, so I loaded very-large OpenOffice.org.
> They are images! Not only that, but the formatting was drastically
> different in OOo compared to AbiWord. However, in OOo, it did look a
> lot more jumbled than the image-less AbiWord interpretation. Without a
> copy of Microsoft Office, I am unable to determine how the documents
> really should look.
> I am able to open the PowerPoint file in OpenOffice.org too, but as
> it's the only presentation software I have, I can't tell to see if
> there's any other interpretation differences between free presentation
> programs (assuming they support PPT . . . )
>
> OpenDocument isn't just some crazy format that a couple of programs
> support, either. Two complete office suits which support it are
> OpenOffice.org and KOffice. Two examples of individual applications
> supporting it are AbiWord and Gnumeric. By far, these are not the only
> programs which support it, the number is in the dozens. It's an
> XML-based format (easy to implement), compressed with Info-ZIP's
> DEFLATE.
> Really, Microsoft is the only developer that refuses to use this open
> file format. They claim that "it doesn't support all the features of
> Office", but even that shouldn't stop them (weather it's true or not),
> after all, they use _far_ more limiting formats like plain text or
> CSV.
>
> Please, for the good of the project, use the free OpenDocument format.
> If not for the reason of being open or free, but simply for the fact
> that it ensures that everybody will be able to view such documents (no
> need to buy any pricey office suites here!).
> --
> Mike
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ros-dev mailing list
> Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>
>
>   
>

[Reuben Perelman]

Why use a binary format? Shouldn't you be using ascii formats in a 
subversion repository.

Mike Swanson wrote:

>  In the branch of press-media, there are two documents
> currently. An MS
> Word and MS PowerPoint document.
>
> I'm calling for SVN committers for _no more_ MS Office documents. They
> are a proprietary format, of which not all the features are currently
> known. I recommend instead the use of OASIS OpenDocument. Not only
> does it save much space, but it also does not contain any secrets in
> which need to be reverse engineered to discover.
>
> Real life example:
> I opened the MS Word flyer into AbiWord, and saw strange boxes. I
> wondered what they could be, so I loaded very-large OpenOffice.org.
> They are images! Not only that, but the formatting was drastically
> different in OOo compared to AbiWord. However, in OOo, it did look a
> lot more jumbled than the image-less AbiWord interpretation. Without a
> copy of Microsoft Office, I am unable to determine how the documents
> really should look.
> I am able to open the PowerPoint file in OpenOffice.org too, but as
> it's the only presentation software I have, I can't tell to see if
> there's any other interpretation differences between free presentation
> programs (assuming they support PPT . . . )
>
> OpenDocument isn't just some crazy format that a couple of programs
> support, either. Two complete office suits which support it are
> OpenOffice.org and KOffice. Two examples of individual applications
> supporting it are AbiWord and Gnumeric. By far, these are not the only
> programs which support it, the number is in the dozens. It's an
> XML-based format (easy to implement), compressed with Info-ZIP's
> DEFLATE.
> Really, Microsoft is the only developer that refuses to use this open
> file format. They claim that "it doesn't support all the features of
> Office", but even that shouldn't stop them (weather it's true or not),
> after all, they use _far_ more limiting formats like plain text or
> CSV.
>
> Please, for the good of the project, use the free OpenDocument format.
> If not for the reason of being open or free, but simply for the fact
> that it ensures that everybody will be able to view such documents (no
> need to buy any pricey office suites here!).
> --
> Mike
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ros-dev mailing list
> Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>
>   
>

[Casper Hornstrup]

Subversion handles binary files just as good as text files.

>   -----Original Message-----
>  From: ros-dev-bounces(a)reactos.org [mailto:[e-mail]] On Behalf Of
> Reuben Perelman
>  Sent: 14. november 2005 04:32
>  To: ReactOS Development List
>  Subject: Re: [ros-dev] Microsoft Office files in the trunk
>  
>  Why use a binary format? Shouldn't you be using ascii formats in a
>  subversion repository.
>  
>  Mike Swanson wrote:
>  
> >  In the branch of press-media, there are two
> > documents currently. An MS
> > Word and MS PowerPoint document.
> >
> > I'm calling for SVN committers for _no more_ MS Office documents. They
> > are a proprietary format, of which not all the features are currently
> > known. I recommend instead the use of OASIS OpenDocument. Not only
> > does it save much space, but it also does not contain any secrets in
> > which need to be reverse engineered to discover.
> >
> > Real life example:
> > I opened the MS Word flyer into AbiWord, and saw strange boxes. I
> > wondered what they could be, so I loaded very-large OpenOffice.org.
> > They are images! Not only that, but the formatting was drastically
> > different in OOo compared to AbiWord. However, in OOo, it did look a
> > lot more jumbled than the image-less AbiWord interpretation. Without a
> > copy of Microsoft Office, I am unable to determine how the documents
> > really should look.
> > I am able to open the PowerPoint file in OpenOffice.org too, but as
> > it's the only presentation software I have, I can't tell to see if
> > there's any other interpretation differences between free presentation
> > programs (assuming they support PPT . . . )
> >
> > OpenDocument isn't just some crazy format that a couple of programs
> > support, either. Two complete office suits which support it are
> > OpenOffice.org and KOffice. Two examples of individual applications
> > supporting it are AbiWord and Gnumeric. By far, these are not the only
> > programs which support it, the number is in the dozens. It's an
> > XML-based format (easy to implement), compressed with Info-ZIP's
> > DEFLATE.
> > Really, Microsoft is the only developer that refuses to use this open
> > file format. They claim that "it doesn't support all the features of
> > Office", but even that shouldn't stop them (weather it's true or not),
> > after all, they use _far_ more limiting formats like plain text or
> > CSV.
> >
> > Please, for the good of the project, use the free OpenDocument format.
> > If not for the reason of being open or free, but simply for the fact
> > that it ensures that everybody will be able to view such documents (no
> > need to buy any pricey office suites here!).
> > --
> > Mike
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Ros-dev mailing list
> > Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
> > http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> >
> >
> >  
>  
>  _______________________________________________
>  Ros-dev mailing list
>  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
>  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev

[Reuben Perelman]

"svn diff" can't handle binary files as good as text files.

Casper Hornstrup wrote:

>  Subversion handles binary files just as good as text
> files.
>
>   
>
> >  -----Original Message-----
> > From: ros-dev-bounces(a)reactos.org [mailto:[e-mail]] On Behalf Of Reuben
> > Perelman
> > Sent: 14. november 2005 04:32
> > To: ReactOS Development List
> > Subject: Re: [ros-dev] Microsoft Office files in the trunk
> >
> > Why use a binary format? Shouldn't you be using ascii formats in a
> > subversion repository.
> >
> > Mike Swanson wrote:
> >
> >     
> >
> > >  In the branch of press-media, there are two
> > > documents currently. An MS
> > > Word and MS PowerPoint document.
> > >
> > > I'm calling for SVN committers for _no more_ MS Office documents. They
> > > are a proprietary format, of which not all the features are currently
> > > known. I recommend instead the use of OASIS OpenDocument. Not only
> > > does it save much space, but it also does not contain any secrets in
> > > which need to be reverse engineered to discover.
> > >
> > > Real life example:
> > > I opened the MS Word flyer into AbiWord, and saw strange boxes. I
> > > wondered what they could be, so I loaded very-large OpenOffice.org.
> > > They are images! Not only that, but the formatting was drastically
> > > different in OOo compared to AbiWord. However, in OOo, it did look a
> > > lot more jumbled than the image-less AbiWord interpretation. Without a
> > > copy of Microsoft Office, I am unable to determine how the documents
> > > really should look.
> > > I am able to open the PowerPoint file in OpenOffice.org too, but as
> > > it's the only presentation software I have, I can't tell to see if
> > > there's any other interpretation differences between free presentation
> > > programs (assuming they support PPT . . . )
> > >
> > > OpenDocument isn't just some crazy format that a couple of programs
> > > support, either. Two complete office suits which support it are
> > > OpenOffice.org and KOffice. Two examples of individual applications
> > > supporting it are AbiWord and Gnumeric. By far, these are not the only
> > > programs which support it, the number is in the dozens. It's an
> > > XML-based format (easy to implement), compressed with Info-ZIP's
> > > DEFLATE.
> > > Really, Microsoft is the only developer that refuses to use this open
> > > file format. They claim that "it doesn't support all the features of
> > > Office", but even that shouldn't stop them (weather it's true or not),
> > > after all, they use _far_ more limiting formats like plain text or
> > > CSV.
> > >
> > > Please, for the good of the project, use the free OpenDocument format.
> > > If not for the reason of being open or free, but simply for the fact
> > > that it ensures that everybody will be able to view such documents (no
> > > need to buy any pricey office suites here!).
> > > --
> > > Mike
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Ros-dev mailing list
> > > Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
> > > http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >       
> > >  
> > _______________________________________________
> > Ros-dev mailing list
> > Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
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