Ros-dev June 2005

ros-dev@reactos.org

77 participants
161 discussions

by Quandary

On Mon, Jun 27, 2005 at 02:15:30PM -0500, Royce Mitchell III wrote: <snip> > Sounds to me the most prudent course of action would > be a new version of the GPL license which clarifies > this particular bit of confusion Try to comment on that for GPLv3... if you can find where it's being officially discussed. -- Travis __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com

20 years, 1 month

Re: [ros-dev] Pissoff hotlix

by Quandary

On Mon, Jun 27, 2005 at 05:22:18AM -0700, magnus(a)itkonsult-olsen.com wrote: > I meaing when we are printing out a copyright note > and that copyright note must be intact or the > copyright string. they are not allown to change it. The license does not say this. > see paragraph 2.c and reactos is interactiv. 2.c says that an *appropriate* copyright notice must be displayed. It does not define what appropriate means. It does *not* say, anywhere, that the copyright notice cannot be modified. > and you for not remove or modify any copyright under > runtime. I'm sorry, but your logic is patently false. The license in no way states that you cannot alter the copyright notice. It states only that you *must show an appropriate notice*. That means showing no notice would be wrong, but showing an altered notice is not (in and of itself) wrong. This could be wrong under copyright law, but the license does not in any way forbid it. > I piss off for hotlix have change the runtime > copyright notes. And I can understand your frustration; I think it's completely justified and warranted. > sublicen some dll are wines and are under lgpl > therefor thuese this licen become a sublicen to > reactos. Not true. LGPL is a DUAL license (both GPL and LGPL). See section 3 of the LGPL. When taking an LGPL library and using it as GPL, it is not a sub-license -- it is a separate license that you are allowed to use *in stead of* the LGPL. Someone taking your GPL source code and using it in a separate project, also released under the GPL, is not sub-licensing your code either. The code is available to that project's end-users under your license -- you license your code directly to HostiliX's (or anyone else's) end-users as GPL code. There is no sub-license involved, period. > and gpl say any sublicen part of source code. the > sublicen for not be chaning. that meaning lgpl can > not become gpl Yes it can. See section 3 of the LGPL. > for we are realing wine code back as > lgpl. Here's how it works. You bring in LGPL code. You modify the LGPL code. It's all still LGPL. You release the LGPL code back to Wine, everything is fine. You go to release it with your GPL code and, oops, incompatibility with the GPL! At that point, you invoke the second license (LGPL section 3) and treat the code as GPL. Then boom, everything works out fine. There is no sub-licensing. There is dual licensing, and that's not the same thing. > therefor can they not take thuse dll or other > part of source in ros comes under diffent licen and > change it. for the main licen forbit it. > > see paragraph 4 But they aren't changing the license; they are using the GPL. I'll say it again: *no sub-licensing happens*. To prove your points, you need to do one of the following: * Name/show the non-GPL license they are using * Show where a copyright notice used to print, and now does not print *at all*. Double sigh. -- Travis > > > Quoting Quandary <ai2097(a)yahoo.com>: > > > On Mon, Jun 27, 2005 at 02:24:04AM -0700, > > magnus(a)itkonsult-olsen.com wrote: > > > Hi > > > > > > I still alot pissoff hotlix they are still > > > breaking gpl > > > > I also don't particularly like what they are doing > > but I don't think that they are breaking the GPL. > > > > > see GPL Licen paragraph 2.c > > > If the modified program normally reads commands > > > interactively when run, you must cause it, when > > > started running for such interactive use in the > > > most ordinary way, to print or display an > > > announcement > > > > (emphasis) > > > including an appropriate copyright notice and a > > > notice that there is no warranty (or else, > > > saying that you provide a warranty) and that > > > users may redistribute the program under these > > > conditions, and telling the user how to view a > > > copy of this License. > > (/emphasis) > > > > > (Exception: if the Program itself is interactive > > > but does not normally print such an > > > announcement, your work based on the Program is > > > not required to print an announcement.) > > > > > > > > > Hotlix have replace there copyright note on > > > every dll and exe files at run time. ReactOS are > > > interactive when it start and therefore are you > > > not allown to change the copyright note. > > > > Sorry, but you're making a logical jump. The > > license above says that the modified program must > > display an *appropriate* copyright notice -- it > > does not say that the notice can't be changed. > > Your definition of appropriate (i.e., saying the > > original dev's name) may not be the legal > > definition (e.g., the most significant > > contributor, the latest contributor, the second > > developer's third-neice-twice-removed's > > boyfriend's dog, or whatever). So, from the checklist: > > > > 1. Do they print a copyright notice that is > > appropriate? > > 2. Do they print that the program is GPL- > > licensed? > > 3. Do they print how to view the license terms? > > > > They appear to comply (or can easily comply with) > > 2 and 3. Unless you have a lawyer, though, 1 is > > gray. > > > > > When you take > > > view propites of a dll / exe / sys / .. we are > > > showing our copyright. therefor are you not > > > allown to change this copyright note. > > > > (see above -- same error) > > > > > and they are breaking paragraph > > > 4. You may not copy, modify, sublicense, or > > > distribute the Program except as expressly > > > provided under this License. Any attempt > > > otherwise to copy, modify, sublicense or > > > distribute the Program is void, and will > > > automatically terminate your rights under this > > > License. However, parties who have received > > > copies, or rights, from you under this License > > > will not have their licenses terminated so long > > > as such parties remain in full compliance. > > > > > > > > > They are not allown to change any licen from us. > > > > Please clarify. According to them, they are using > > the GPL license -- same as us. I don't see how > > they are changing the licensing. > > > > > for we using sublicen wine dll are lgpl and our > > > own code are gpl thefor should wine dll see as a > > > sublicen. > > > > I don't really understand what you're trying to > > say here. However, note that the LGPL allows you > > to "upgrade" to the GPL license (it's effectively > > a dual license). The LGPL states: > > > > 3. You may opt to apply the terms of the ordinary > > GNU General Public License instead of this License > > to a given copy of the Library. To do this, you > > must alter all the notices that refer to this > > License, so that they refer to the ordinary GNU > > General Public License, version 2, instead of to > > this License. (If a newer version than version 2 > > of the ordinary GNU General Public License has > > appeared, then you can specify that version > > instead if you wish.) Do not make any other > > change in these notices. > > > > Thus, there is no sublicensing going on -- it's > > all one license (GPL). > > > > > I have not check see if they are still breaking > > > more paragraph in gpl. And I start thinking to > > > we or I should send a email say at they have > > > break gpl and they are not longer right to use > > > our code or my. > > > > As irate as you may be, nothing that you've > > brought up thus far looks to be an infraction of > > the GPL (although they could *potentially* be > > breaking some copyright law or other, e.g. by > > adding their copyright notices and removing > > existing ones, or by failing to cite sources of > > patches). > > > > > I need get this out from my head and hart. I am > > > alot pissoff on holtix guys. The taking our > > > patch and put into there source there. without > > > telling how have wrote the code. > > > > I agree that that's wrong and unfair. People > > deserve credit and recognition for the work that > > they do. > > > > > That mean they are breaking some copyright laws. > > > > If you can find the particular law that applies, > > go for it. I'm not an international lawyer myself, > > so I don't know what laws even apply to them -- > > let alone if they're breaking those laws. > > > > > You can not take other source code and put into > > > another there without writen permitontion > > > > You contributed your code under the terms of the > > GPL. That is your "written permission," sorry to > > say -- by your own choice of license, the source > > code is available to be copied, reworked, and re- > > released by anyone else. I'll also reiterate that > > they do seem to be in compliance (though only by > > words and not in spirit). > > > > > or tell where the code comes from. if you look > > > at there source there you will think they have > > > wrote the patch code. But it is some devloper at > > > us that have write the patch for reactos. > > > > > > Sigh. > > > > -- Travis > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com

20 years, 1 month

Re: [ros-dev] Pissoff hotlix

by Quandary

On Mon, Jun 27, 2005 at 08:53:07AM -0700, magnus(a)itkonsult-olsen.com wrote: > I know you can make lgpl to gpl that is not the > problem. reactos main licen is gpl. right. And gpl > say you are not allown to change a sublicen to > another licen. right. Not quite, no. The GPL says that if you use GPL code, everything that you release that uses that GPL code must also be GPL. Thus (BSD + LGPL + GPL) -> GPL when it's distributed. BSD must be sublicensed, and LGPL must have it's GPL license conversion excercised. You no longer have the full BSD rights in the distributed code anymore, if you download it all as a whole. > than mean all other modules that are using a diffent > licen like lgpl as wine dll does. it will become a > sublicen. I reiterate that it is not a sublicense in the case of the LGPL. > And 3d part like hotlix can not change any sublicen > that reactos is using. they must release with same > licen. ... they must release everything as GPL, if that's what you're trying to say ... > But if we in ros have change lgpl to gpl that is > allown. or if hotlix did take the source direcly > from wine. often are we using modify wine dll files > and some part of the code will never goes back to > wine, for it is reactos specfiy so it will working > in reactos or windows, that will not work in wine > under linux. And none of these will have licensing issues. > Some other dll are under bsd licen, I have not check > see if they have change that licen. but problade > they have. ... And they would actually HAVE to change the license of the BSD code to be GPL, unless they downloaded the BSD code separately, or downloaded the BSD portions in separate, discreet sections. Why? Because you distribute ReactOS, as a whole, under GPL. BSD/no advert gives you enough rights to sublicense as GPL. Thus, you can include BSD code into a GPL project, and the BSD code thus distributed is no longer BSD -- it's been sublicensed out as GPL. It would be totally correct of them to mark every file in their SVN as being distributed under the GPL (otherwise, ReactOS is doing something that is non-GPL compliant). They also have the option of discreetly downloading all of the sections that are non-GPL, and reconstructing those sections in order to retain the original licenses (though there's little point in that). But in either case, they aren't doing anything wrong with either the licensing or the sublicensing. Since they're distributing the whole project as GPL, the point is moot -- since you distribute all of the files as GPL, then they can distribute the files (modified or not) as GPL. If they can't, then neither can you -- if they're distributing everything as GPL, and their out of compliance, then you must've been out of compliance to begin with. -- Travis ____________________________________________________ Yahoo! Sports Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com

20 years, 1 month

Re: [ros-dev] Pissoff hotlix

by Quandary

On Mon, Jun 27, 2005 at 06:53:59AM -0700, magnus(a)itkonsult-olsen.com wrote: > http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl.html > <- url to gpl licen http://www.gnu.org/licenses/lgpl.html ^ URL to LGPL license ^ > read paragrpah 2 > c) If the modified program normally reads commands > interactively when run, you must cause it, when > started running for such interactive use in the most > ordinary way, to print or display an announcement > including an appropriate copyright notice and a > notice that there is no warranty (or else, saying > that you provide a warranty) and that users may > redistribute the program under these conditions, and > telling the user how to view a copy of this License. > (Exception: if the Program itself is interactive but > does not normally print such an announcement, your > work based on the Program is not required to print > an announcement.) Read LGPL section 3 3. You may opt to apply the terms of the ordinary GNU General Public License instead of this License to a given copy of the Library. To do this, you must alter all the notices that refer to this License, so that they refer to the ordinary GNU General Public License, version 2, instead of to this License. (If a newer version than version 2 of the ordinary GNU General Public License has appeared, then you can specify that version instead if you wish.) Do not make any other change in these notices. Once this change is made in a given copy, it is irreversible for that copy, so the ordinary GNU General Public License applies to all subsequent copies and derivative works made from that copy. This option is useful when you wish to copy part of the code of the Library into a program that is not a library. > the text above are from gpl and I have include where > to obtain the gpl licen. The text above is from the LGPL, and I have included where to obtain the LGPL license. > If I do not complete wrong we are relasng wine dll as > lgpl in the source there not gpl. DING! Therefore, the GPL does NOT apply, the *LGPL* terms I quoted above DO apply. > therefor it become a sublicen, we do not change the > licen from lgpl to gpl. if you reading wine source > code for wine dll files you will see it is under > lgpl not gpl. DING! Also correct. But as soon as I get the LGPL files, I can invoke clause 3, and BAM! They are now GPL'd. No sublicensing is involved. The LGPL has the same practical effect as dual-licensing the code as LGPL/GPL. Note that I pointed this out way back in the conversation: > > > > I don't really understand what you're trying > > > > to say here. However, note that the LGPL > > > > allows you to "upgrade" to the GPL license > > > > (it's effectively a dual license). The LGPL > > > > states: > > > > > > > > 3. You may opt to apply the terms of the > > > > ordinary GNU General Public License instead of > > > > this License to a given copy of the Library. > > > > To do this, you must alter all the notices > > > > that refer to this License, so that they refer > > > > to the ordinary GNU General Public License, > > > > version 2, instead of to this License. (If a > > > > newer version than version 2 of the ordinary > > > > GNU General Public License has appeared, then > > > > you can specify that version instead if you > > > > wish.) Do not make any other change in these > > > > notices. > > > > > > > > Thus, there is no sublicensing going on -- > > > > it's all one license (GPL). <282 lines snipped> So, again -- DUAL licensing, NOT sublicensing. -- Travis __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com

20 years, 1 month

Re: [ros-dev] Pissoff hotlix

by Quandary

On Mon, Jun 27, 2005 at 09:37:04AM -0400, Brandon Turner wrote: > Why do you consider an altered copyright notice > appropriate? > Good question. It doesn't matter whether I think it's appropriate or not. It's not for me to decide, and to the best of my knowledge, I have not expressed an opinion one way or the other about thinking that it is or isn't appropriate. However, it is up to us to prove that it's explicitly *not* appropriate (i.e., that they have broken the license). Because "appropriate" isn't defined in the license itself, we must rely on a combination of legal precedence and juristiction-specific law. I am not a lawyer, so I can't tell you what "appropriate" means. Thus, until we have proof to the contrary, it must be assumed to be appropriate. -- Travis <snipped for sanity's sake> __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail Mobile Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/learn/mail

20 years, 1 month

Re: [ros-dev] Pissoff hotlix

by Quandary

On Mon, Jun 27, 2005 at 02:24:04AM -0700, magnus(a)itkonsult-olsen.com wrote: > Hi > > I still alot pissoff hotlix they are still breaking > gpl I also don't particularly like what they are doing, but I don't think that they are breaking the GPL. > see GPL Licen paragraph 2.c > If the modified program normally reads commands > interactively when run, you must cause it, when > started running for such interactive use in the most > ordinary way, to print or display an announcement (emphasis) > including an appropriate copyright notice and a > notice that there is no warranty (or else, saying > that you provide a warranty) and that users may > redistribute the program under these conditions, and > telling the user how to view a copy of this License. (/emphasis) > (Exception: if the Program itself is interactive but > does not normally print such an announcement, your > work based on the Program is not required to print > an announcement.) > > > Hotlix have replace there copyright note on every > dll and exe files at run time. ReactOS are > interactive when it start and therefore are you not > allown to change the copyright note. Sorry, but you're making a logical jump. The license above says that the modified program must display an *appropriate* copyright notice -- it does not say that the notice can't be changed. Your definition of appropriate (i.e., saying the original dev's name) may not be the legal definition (e.g., the most significant contributor, the latest contributor, the second developer's third-neice-twice-removed's boyfriend's dog, or whatever). So, from the checklist: 1. Do they print a copyright notice that is appropriate? 2. Do they print that the program is GPL-licensed? 3. Do they print how to view the license terms? They appear to comply (or can easily comply with) 2 and 3. Unless you have a lawyer, though, 1 is gray. > When you take > view propites of a dll / exe / sys / .. we are > showing our copyright. therefor are you not allown > to change this copyright note. (see above -- same error) > and they are breaking paragraph > 4. You may not copy, modify, sublicense, or > distribute the Program except as expressly provided > under this License. Any attempt otherwise to copy, > modify, sublicense or distribute the Program is > void, and will automatically terminate your rights > under this License. However, parties who have > received copies, or rights, from you under this > License will not have their licenses terminated so > long as such parties remain in full compliance. > > > They are not allown to change any licen from us. Please clarify. According to them, they are using the GPL license -- same as us. I don't see how they are changing the licensing. > for we using sublicen wine dll are lgpl and our own > code are gpl thefor should wine dll see as a > sublicen. I don't really understand what you're trying to say here. However, note that the LGPL allows you to "upgrade" to the GPL license (it's effectively a dual license). The LGPL states: 3. You may opt to apply the terms of the ordinary GNU General Public License instead of this License to a given copy of the Library. To do this, you must alter all the notices that refer to this License, so that they refer to the ordinary GNU General Public License, version 2, instead of to this License. (If a newer version than version 2 of the ordinary GNU General Public License has appeared, then you can specify that version instead if you wish.) Do not make any other change in these notices. Thus, there is no sublicensing going on -- it's all one license (GPL). > I have not check see if they are still breaking more > paragraph in gpl. And I start thinking to we or I > should send a email say at they have break gpl and > they are not longer right to use our code or my. As irate as you may be, nothing that you've brought up thus far looks to be an infraction of the GPL (although they could *potentially* be breaking some copyright law or other, e.g. by adding their copyright notices and removing existing ones, or by failing to cite sources of patches). > I need get this out from my head and hart. I am alot > pissoff on holtix guys. The taking our patch and put > into there source there. without telling how have > wrote the code. I agree that that's wrong and unfair. People deserve credit and recognition for the work that they do. > That mean they are breaking some copyright laws. If you can find the particular law that applies, go for it. I'm not an international lawyer myself, so I don't know what laws even apply to them -- let alone if they're breaking those laws. > You can not take other source code > and put into another there without writen > permitontion You contributed your code under the terms of the GPL. That is your "written permission," sorry to say -- by your own choice of license, the source code is available to be copied, reworked, and re-released by anyone else. I'll also reiterate that they do seem to be in compliance (though only by words and not in spirit). > or tell where the code comes from. if > you look at there source there you will think they > have wrote the patch code. But it is some devloper > at us that have write the patch for reactos. Sigh. -- Travis __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail Mobile Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/learn/mail

20 years, 1 month

Question about _fputts

by Tim Jobling

Hi, I've added a load of functionality to our Ipconfig. It now actually try's to display the IP address :) It works quite well under WindowsXP, and is no worse than the current one on ReactOS. The patch is in Bugzilla, bug number [658]. It would be nice of someone with write access could commit this. It has razed a question though. To display the usage, a you type "ipconfig /?" The patched version then try's to output a TCHAR string using _fputts(szUsage, stderr). But it only outputs the last 9 characters of the string. Is this a new bug, or am I doing something wrong? Tim ___________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Messenger - NEW crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with voicemail http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com

20 years, 1 month

RE: [ion] 16288: Satisfy blight's excessively arrogant attitude and overblown ego

by Ge van Geldorp

Alex, I think blight was right on this one. We make a big fuzz when copyright notices/author info gets lost when files are copied by Hostilix, we should make sure we do the proper thing ourselves. I also feel that you miss critical people-skills needed for kernel coordinator, so you lost my vote (when it comes to a vote...). Gé van Geldorp.

20 years, 1 month

Re: [ros-svn] [ion] 16288: Satisfy blight's excessively arrogant attitude and overblown ego

by Anich Gregor

You are such an IDIOT! If i wanted to see my copyright in the file i could add it to each file i touch, like you do. I was just saying that it was bad to base a new file on a old one, copying blocks of the old one into the new one (or rewriting them - at the end one sees its the same code with different syntax), then remove the original authors copyright (dwelch), add his own name, svn delete the old file and add the new file instead of moving and keeping all copytrights in the file/history. You said you didnt know who wrote the FPU code (after i said that i have written it and noone can see that because of the deleted history), but you would have had to assume that it was written by dwelch if thats the only name in the file (and add his name to the new file) or simply keep the history of the file so everyone can see which part was written by whom. So the file said it was written by dwelch, while the history showed that it was written by me (i didnt want to add my copyright into the file, knowing that people can see from the history that i have written it was enough satisfaction) - and now the history is gone and the file leaves the impression that everything was written 100% by you. IMO we should try to take care of others copyright (even if you dont like them) I never asked you to add my copyright back to the file, and you would also have to add david welch again (and all the others from the old history which worked on the file), no only me!

20 years, 1 month

Re: [ros-svn] [ekohl] 16283: Don't redefine ANSI_STRING, UNICODE_STRING and OBJECT_ATTRIBUTES if the NDK already defines them.

by Alex Ionescu

ekohl(a)svn.reactos.com wrote: >Don't redefine ANSI_STRING, UNICODE_STRING and OBJECT_ATTRIBUTES if the NDK already defines them. > > >Updated files: >trunk/reactos/w32api/include/ntsecapi.h > >_________ > Hi Eric, Unforunately, we don't have the liberty to do this, since the real PSDK file doesn't, and MS Header compatibility is a goal. The NDK must always follow ntsecapi.h. Best regards, Alex Ionescu

20 years, 1 month

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Ros-dev June 2005