Patent on FAT

[Murphy, Ged (Bolton)]

I'm reading reports of a US patent on FAT.
What's going on and how will this effect us?

The US patent rules are seriously out of control :(

Ged

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The information contained in this message or any of its
attachments is confidential and is intended for the exclusive
use of the addressee. The information may also be legally
privileged. The views expressed may not be company policy,
but the personal views of the originator. If you are not the
addressee, any disclosure, reproduction, distribution or other
dissemination or use of this communication is strictly prohibited.
If you have received this message in error, please contact
[e-mail] 
mailto:[e-mail] and then delete this message.

Exide Technologies is an industrial and transportation battery
producer and recycler with operations in 89 countries.
Further information can be found at www.exide.com

[Casper Hornstrup]

The patent is about storing short and long filenames on the same volume.

In theory ReactOS violates that patent, but the patent has yet to be proven

valid (as with many other technology patents). To fix it, we can make the

support for this optional, so people in countries who honour US patents can

disable the support.

Casper

_____

From: [e-mail] [mailto:[e-mail]] On
Behalf Of Murphy, Ged (Bolton)
Sent: 11. januar 2006 12:19
To: '[e-mail]'
Subject: [ros-dev] Patent on FAT

I'm reading reports of a US patent on FAT. 
What's going on and how will this effect us?

The US patent rules are seriously out of control :(

Ged

************************************************************************ 
The information contained in this message or any of its 
attachments is confidential and is intended for the exclusive 
use of the addressee. The information may also be legally 
privileged. The views expressed may not be company policy, 
but the personal views of the originator. If you are not the 
addressee, any disclosure, reproduction, distribution or other 
dissemination or use of this communication is strictly prohibited. 
If you have received this message in error, please contact 
[e-mail] 
mailto:[e-mail] and then delete this message.

Exide Technologies is an industrial and transportation battery 
producer and recycler with operations in 89 countries. 
Further information can be found at www.exide.com

[nitro2k01]

I haven't seen the patant documents, but doesn't this mean that any
file system which stores both long and short file names on the same
volume would be theoreticlly affected?

/nitro2k01

On 1/11/06, Casper Hornstrup [e-mail] wrote:
> The patent is about storing short and long filenames on the same volume.
>
> In theory ReactOS violates that patent, but the patent has yet to be proven
>
> valid (as with many other technology patents). To fix it, we can make the
>
> support for this optional, so people in countries who honour US patents can
>
> disable the support.
>
> Casper
> ________________________________
>
> From: [e-mail] [mailto:[e-mail]] On
> Behalf Of Murphy, Ged (Bolton)
> Sent: 11. januar 2006 12:19
> To: '[e-mail]'
> Subject: [ros-dev] Patent on FAT
>
> I'm reading reports of a US patent on FAT.
> What's going on and how will this effect us?
>
> The US patent rules are seriously out of control :(
>
> Ged
>
> The information contained in this message or any of its
> attachments is confidential and is intended for the exclusive
> use of the addressee. The information may also be legally
> privileged. The views expressed may not be company policy,
> but the personal views of the originator. If you are not the
> addressee, any disclosure, reproduction, distribution or other
> dissemination or use of this communication is strictly prohibited.
> If you have received this message in error, please contact
> [e-mail]
> mailto:[e-mail] and then delete this message.
>
> Exide Technologies is an industrial and transportation battery
> producer and recycler with operations in 89 countries.
> Further information can be found at www.exide.com
>
> Ros-dev mailing list
> [e-mail]
> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev

--
The blog  of nitro2k01: http://soundandcomplete.blogspot.com/
Saliga äro de som kan stava till 2k01!        Sniphpha sniphph!

[TwoTailedFox]

This stinks of Market Saturation.

Microsoft floods the market with a free File System, used in
practically everything, fro Camera's, Memory Sticks, and of course,
Operating Systems such as Linux and ReactOS.

Trying to enforce a patent 20 years after the software was developed
should not be allowed. Then again, this is a US Patent, so no other
countries are affected by this.

On 1/11/06, Casper Hornstrup [e-mail] wrote:
> The patent is about storing short and long filenames on the same volume.
>
> In theory ReactOS violates that patent, but the patent has yet to be proven
>
> valid (as with many other technology patents). To fix it, we can make the
>
> support for this optional, so people in countries who honour US patents can
>
> disable the support.
>
> Casper
>
> From: [e-mail] [mailto:[e-mail]] On
> Behalf Of Murphy, Ged (Bolton)
>  Sent: 11. januar 2006 12:19
>  To: '[e-mail]'
>  Subject: [ros-dev] Patent on FAT
>
> I'm reading reports of a US patent on FAT.
>  What's going on and how will this effect us?
>
> The US patent rules are seriously out of control :(
>
> Ged
>
> The information contained in this message or any of its
>  attachments is confidential and is intended for the exclusive
>  use of the addressee. The information may also be legally
>  privileged. The views expressed may not be company policy,
>  but the personal views of the originator. If you are not the
>  addressee, any disclosure, reproduction, distribution or other
>  dissemination or use of this communication is strictly prohibited.
>  If you have received this message in error, please contact
>  [e-mail]
>  mailto:[e-mail] and then delete this message.
>
> Exide Technologies is an industrial and transportation battery
>  producer and recycler with operations in 89 countries.
>  Further information can be found at www.exide.com
>
> Ros-dev mailing list
> [e-mail]
> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev

--
"I had a handle on life, but then it broke"

[Casper Hornstrup]

Devices such as digital cameras and modern mobile phones need a (simple)
file system. Microsoft has FAT and Microsoft demands royalties. It's good
business practice. You get revenue without really doing much work ;-)

Casper

-----Original Message-----
From: [e-mail] [mailto:[e-mail]] On
Behalf Of TwoTailedFox
Sent: 11. januar 2006 13:06
To: ReactOS Development List
Subject: Re: [ros-dev] Patent on FAT

This stinks of Market Saturation.

Microsoft floods the market with a free File System, used in
practically everything, fro Camera's, Memory Sticks, and of course,
Operating Systems such as Linux and ReactOS.

Trying to enforce a patent 20 years after the software was developed
should not be allowed. Then again, this is a US Patent, so no other
countries are affected by this.

[Rick Langschultz]

The only thing i see that will allow Microsoft to use the patent for  
the FAT filesystem naming conventions is holding it above other  
operating system developer's heads. I think that FAT was never a good  
choice for a filesystem. If M$ does decide to get feisty ReactOS  
should implement a VFS for something like FAT over XFS, EXT3, or Reiser.

All of these are really good at storing large amounts of data very  
fast. I also think that an NTFS implementation or a VFS would be a  
great idea.

Can someone provide statistics about any of these filesystems or  
verify if these are able to store files larger than a certain size. I  
also think that FAT has a max file size limit...

On Jan 11, 2006, at 5:18 AM, Murphy, Ged (Bolton) wrote:
> I'm reading reports of a US patent on FAT.
> What's going on and how will this effect us?
>
> The US patent rules are seriously out of control :(
>
> Ged
>
> **
> The information contained in this message or any of its
> attachments is confidential and is intended for the exclusive
> use of the addressee. The information may also be legally
> privileged. The views expressed may not be company policy,
> but the personal views of the originator. If you are not the
> addressee, any disclosure, reproduction, distribution or other
> dissemination or use of this communication is strictly prohibited.
> If you have received this message in error, please contact
> [e-mail]
> mailto:[e-mail] and then delete this message.
>
> Exide Technologies is an industrial and transportation battery
> producer and recycler with operations in 89 countries.
> Further information can be found at www.exide.com
>
> Ros-dev mailing list
> [e-mail]
> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev

[nitro2k01]

FAT32 limits file sizes to 4 GB.

/nitro2k01

On 1/11/06, Rick Langschultz [e-mail] wrote:
> The only thing i see that will allow Microsoft to use the patent for the FAT
> filesystem naming conventions is holding it above other operating system
> developer's heads. I think that FAT was never a good choice for a
> filesystem. If M$ does decide to get feisty ReactOS should implement a VFS
> for something like FAT over XFS, EXT3, or Reiser.
>
> All of these are really good at storing large amounts of data very fast. I
> also think that an NTFS implementation or a VFS would be a great idea.
>
> Can someone provide statistics about any of these filesystems or verify if
> these are able to store files larger than a certain size. I also think that
> FAT has a max file size limit...
>
> On Jan 11, 2006, at 5:18 AM, Murphy, Ged (Bolton) wrote:
>
> I'm reading reports of a US patent on FAT.
> What's going on and how will this effect us?
>
> The US patent rules are seriously out of control :(
>
> Ged
>
> The information contained in this message or any of its
> attachments is confidential and is intended for the exclusive
> use of the addressee. The information may also be legally
> privileged. The views expressed may not be company policy,
> but the personal views of the originator. If you are not the
> addressee, any disclosure, reproduction, distribution or other
> dissemination or use of this communication is strictly prohibited.
> If you have received this message in error, please contact
> [e-mail]
> mailto:[e-mail] and then delete this message.
>
> Exide Technologies is an industrial and transportation battery
> producer and recycler with operations in 89 countries.
> Further information can be found at www.exide.com
> _______________________________________________
> Ros-dev mailing list
> [e-mail]
> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>
> Ros-dev mailing list
> [e-mail]
> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev

--
The blog  of nitro2k01: http://soundandcomplete.blogspot.com/
Saliga äro de som kan stava till 2k01!        Sniphpha sniphph!

[Rick Langschultz]

i would rather use a filesystem that was able to store things larger  
than that. What about virtual machine disks? I think that FAT32 is  
the wrong fs to be using here people.
On Jan 11, 2006, at 7:44 AM, nitro2k01 wrote:
> FAT32 limits file sizes to 4 GB.
>                                     /nitro2k01
>
> On 1/11/06, Rick Langschultz [e-mail] wrote:
> > The only thing i see that will allow Microsoft to use the patent  
> > for the FAT
> > filesystem naming conventions is holding it above other operating  
> > system
> > developer's heads. I think that FAT was never a good choice for a
> > filesystem. If M$ does decide to get feisty ReactOS should  
> > implement a VFS
> > for something like FAT over XFS, EXT3, or Reiser.
> >
> > All of these are really good at storing large amounts of data very  
> > fast. I
> > also think that an NTFS implementation or a VFS would be a great  
> > idea.
> >
> > Can someone provide statistics about any of these filesystems or  
> > verify if
> > these are able to store files larger than a certain size. I also  
> > think that
> > FAT has a max file size limit...
> >
> > On Jan 11, 2006, at 5:18 AM, Murphy, Ged (Bolton) wrote:
> >
> > I'm reading reports of a US patent on FAT.
> > What's going on and how will this effect us?
> >
> > The US patent rules are seriously out of control :(
> >
> > Ged
> >
> > The information contained in this message or any of its
> > attachments is confidential and is intended for the exclusive
> > use of the addressee. The information may also be legally
> > privileged. The views expressed may not be company policy,
> > but the personal views of the originator. If you are not the
> > addressee, any disclosure, reproduction, distribution or other
> > dissemination or use of this communication is strictly prohibited.
> > If you have received this message in error, please contact
> > [e-mail]
> > mailto:[e-mail] and then delete this message.
> >
> > Exide Technologies is an industrial and transportation battery
> > producer and recycler with operations in 89 countries.
> > Further information can be found at www.exide.com
> > _______________________________________________
> > Ros-dev mailing list
> > [e-mail]
> > http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> >
> > Ros-dev mailing list
> > [e-mail]
> > http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>
> --
> The blog  of nitro2k01: http://soundandcomplete.blogspot.com/
> Saliga äro de som kan stava till 2k01!        Sniphpha sniphph!
>
> Ros-dev mailing list
> [e-mail]
> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev

[TwoTailedFox]

FAT16 and FAT32 are only included in ReactOS for the
"Windows-Compatible" section of the "ReactOS Charter"

Thus, is worst came to worst, ReactOS would have to do one or all of
the following in the States:

1) Crack NTFS
2) Finish Implementing Ext2, and make it Default FS
3) Implement ReiserFS/Reiser 4, or another file system such as XFS, JFS

On 1/11/06, Rick Langschultz [e-mail] wrote:
> i would rather use a filesystem that was able to store things larger
> than that. What about virtual machine disks? I think that FAT32 is
> the wrong fs to be using here people.
> On Jan 11, 2006, at 7:44 AM, nitro2k01 wrote:
> > FAT32 limits file sizes to 4 GB.
> >                                     /nitro2k01
> >
> > On 1/11/06, Rick Langschultz [e-mail] wrote:
> > > The only thing i see that will allow Microsoft to use the patent
> > > for the FAT
> > > filesystem naming conventions is holding it above other operating
> > > system
> > > developer's heads. I think that FAT was never a good choice for a
> > > filesystem. If M$ does decide to get feisty ReactOS should
> > > implement a VFS
> > > for something like FAT over XFS, EXT3, or Reiser.
> > >
> > > All of these are really good at storing large amounts of data very
> > > fast. I
> > > also think that an NTFS implementation or a VFS would be a great
> > > idea.
> > >
> > > Can someone provide statistics about any of these filesystems or
> > > verify if
> > > these are able to store files larger than a certain size. I also
> > > think that
> > > FAT has a max file size limit...
> > >
> > > On Jan 11, 2006, at 5:18 AM, Murphy, Ged (Bolton) wrote:
> > >
> > > I'm reading reports of a US patent on FAT.
> > > What's going on and how will this effect us?
> > >
> > > The US patent rules are seriously out of control :(
> > >
> > > Ged
> > >
> > > The information contained in this message or any of its
> > > attachments is confidential and is intended for the exclusive
> > > use of the addressee. The information may also be legally
> > > privileged. The views expressed may not be company policy,
> > > but the personal views of the originator. If you are not the
> > > addressee, any disclosure, reproduction, distribution or other
> > > dissemination or use of this communication is strictly prohibited.
> > > If you have received this message in error, please contact
> > > [e-mail]
> > > mailto:[e-mail] and then delete this message.
> > >
> > > Exide Technologies is an industrial and transportation battery
> > > producer and recycler with operations in 89 countries.
> > > Further information can be found at www.exide.com
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Ros-dev mailing list
> > > [e-mail]
> > > http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> > >
> > > Ros-dev mailing list
> > > [e-mail]
> > > http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> >
> > --
> > The blog  of nitro2k01: http://soundandcomplete.blogspot.com/
> > Saliga äro de som kan stava till 2k01!        Sniphpha sniphph!
> >
> > Ros-dev mailing list
> > [e-mail]
> > http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>
> Ros-dev mailing list
> [e-mail]
> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev

--
"I had a handle on life, but then it broke"

[Magnus Olsen]

Patent on FATit is not affcetc us, if i rember right the paten is invaild. 
and ms did say from beginer any one have right to use VFAT 
as I recall

----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Murphy, Ged (Bolton) 
  To: '[e-mail]' 
  Sent: den 11 January 2006 12:18
  Subject: [ros-dev] Patent on FAT

I'm reading reports of a US patent on FAT. 
  What's going on and how will this effect us?

The US patent rules are seriously out of control :(

Ged

************************************************************************ 
  The information contained in this message or any of its 
  attachments is confidential and is intended for the exclusive 
  use of the addressee. The information may also be legally 
  privileged. The views expressed may not be company policy, 
  but the personal views of the originator. If you are not the 
  addressee, any disclosure, reproduction, distribution or other 
  dissemination or use of this communication is strictly prohibited. 
  If you have received this message in error, please contact 
  [e-mail] 
  mailto:[e-mail] and then delete this message.

Exide Technologies is an industrial and transportation battery 
  producer and recycler with operations in 89 countries. 
  Further information can be found at www.exide.com

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

_______________________________________________
  Ros-dev mailing list
  [e-mail]
  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev

[Mike Swanson]

What about implementing some system of UMSDOS for ReactOS? I think the 
Microsoft patent only applies to their method of storing LFNs, not other 
methods like UMSDOS does (which also supports a number of other features -- 
permissions, case sensitivity, etc).

On Wednesday 11 January 2006 03:18, Murphy, Ged (Bolton) wrote:
> I'm reading reports of a US patent on FAT.
> What's going on and how will this effect us?
>
> The US patent rules are seriously out of control :(
>
> Ged
>
> The information contained in this message or any of its
> attachments is confidential and is intended for the exclusive
> use of the addressee. The information may also be legally
> privileged. The views expressed may not be company policy,
> but the personal views of the originator. If you are not the
> addressee, any disclosure, reproduction, distribution or other
> dissemination or use of this communication is strictly prohibited.
> If you have received this message in error, please contact
> [e-mail]
> mailto:[e-mail] and then delete this message.
>
> Exide Technologies is an industrial and transportation battery
> producer and recycler with operations in 89 countries.
> Further information can be found at www.exide.com
-- 
Mike
OpenPGP Public Key: 
http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x1FFF814B

[Wesley Parish]

The joke is that LFN as developed and used in MS Win9x and so on, was already 
a part of WordPerfect 5.1 - and WordPerfect is the favourite word processor 
of Legal Offices.  And WordPerfect 5.1 was in public use at least five years 
before Microsoft brought out their (in)famous MS Win95 - "You make a grown 
man cry!"

If the worst comes to the worst, there's plenty of room on this jugular to go 
for.

Wesley Parish

On Thu, 12 Jan 2006 00:18, Murphy, Ged (Bolton) wrote:
> I'm reading reports of a US patent on FAT.
> What's going on and how will this effect us?
>
> The US patent rules are seriously out of control :(
>
> Ged
>
> The information contained in this message or any of its
> attachments is confidential and is intended for the exclusive
> use of the addressee. The information may also be legally
> privileged. The views expressed may not be company policy,
> but the personal views of the originator. If you are not the
> addressee, any disclosure, reproduction, distribution or other
> dissemination or use of this communication is strictly prohibited.
> If you have received this message in error, please contact
> [e-mail]
> mailto:[e-mail] and then delete this message.
>
> Exide Technologies is an industrial and transportation battery
> producer and recycler with operations in 89 countries.
> Further information can be found at www.exide.com
-- 
Clinersterton beademung, with all of love - RIP James Blish
-----
Mau e ki, he aha te mea nui?
You ask, what is the most important thing?
Maku e ki, he tangata, he tangata, he tangata.
I reply, it is people, it is people, it is people.

[Steven Edwards]

Hi,

On 1/12/06, Wesley Parish [e-mail] wrote:
> If the worst comes to the worst, there's plenty of room on this jugular to go
> for.

Well we need money to mount a case and I think Alex and I have come up
with a solution to the problem. I hope that someone will Wiki this for
me. Also if we do decide to follow through on this plan we need to
wage the largest public relations war possible.

I propose that from now on all CVS builds have the SFN-LFN code
disabled in the vfat driver and that in stage2 setup we have a gui
tool that loads like the vmware driver installer that contains a
dialog with checkboxes like the following:

Patented Features Page
[] Enable FreeType Patented Features
[] Enable Fat32 Patented Features

Disclaimer Text., Yada, Yada, Yada

I understand that for freetype we may have to have a autodownloader
that redirects to somewhere outside of the United States but for the
fat features I think we can follow the Microsoft design and make it a
registry key.

Now the part of this plan where it comes to making money to fight the
patent I have to thank Alex for. He suggested that we just charge
$0.35 per download and pay Microsoft the $0.25 per license they want,
so we would make a profit. I personally hate this idea but it got me
thinking. We could have a download page that offers two builds. The
download page should clearly explain the situation about the patent
and contain a paypal link for donations plus have a option to download
a build with the patent enabled for the license free + a small cost to
us like Alex said. The ReactOS Foundation would then pay Microsoft per
copy sold and take the rest to put in the general party and legal
defense fund to mount a case agenst the very patent we are licensing.

I am open to comments and or outright rejection of the idea. I don't
like the idea of giving Microsoft more money but on the flip side it
gives us the chance to spin things for us in the media, bring money in
and make them look very bad once we start fighting the case.

--
Steven Edwards - ReactOS and Wine developer

"There is one thing stronger than all the armies in the world, and
that is an idea whose time has come." - Victor Hugo

[Brandon Turner]

Steven Edwards wrote:
> Hi,
>
> On 1/12/06, Wesley Parish [e-mail] wrote:
> > If the worst comes to the worst, there's plenty of room on this jugular to go
> > for.
>
> Well we need money to mount a case and I think Alex and I have come up
> with a solution to the problem. I hope that someone will Wiki this for
> me. Also if we do decide to follow through on this plan we need to
> wage the largest public relations war possible.
>
> I propose that from now on all CVS builds have the SFN-LFN code
> disabled in the vfat driver and that in stage2 setup we have a gui
> tool that loads like the vmware driver installer that contains a
> dialog with checkboxes like the following:
>
> Patented Features Page
> [] Enable FreeType Patented Features
> [] Enable Fat32 Patented Features
>
> Disclaimer Text., Yada, Yada, Yada
>
> I understand that for freetype we may have to have a autodownloader
> that redirects to somewhere outside of the United States but for the
> fat features I think we can follow the Microsoft design and make it a
> registry key.
>
> Now the part of this plan where it comes to making money to fight the
> patent I have to thank Alex for. He suggested that we just charge
> $0.35 per download and pay Microsoft the $0.25 per license they want,
> so we would make a profit. I personally hate this idea but it got me
> thinking. We could have a download page that offers two builds. The
> download page should clearly explain the situation about the patent
> and contain a paypal link for donations plus have a option to download
> a build with the patent enabled for the license free + a small cost to
> us like Alex said. The ReactOS Foundation would then pay Microsoft per
> copy sold and take the rest to put in the general party and legal
> defense fund to mount a case agenst the very patent we are licensing.

Small cost or small donation?  I mean, does the GPL allow us to do this 
kinda thing?  Also, just to claify, there is nothing stopping someone 
else from taking our code, enabling the patents and redistrubiting it 
for free as long as they provide the sources, correct?
> I am open to comments and or outright rejection of the idea. I don't
> like the idea of giving Microsoft more money but on the flip side it
> gives us the chance to spin things for us in the media, bring money in
> and make them look very bad once we start fighting the case.

Do you truly and honestly believe this will generate enough money to 
even start a case against MS?
> --
> Steven Edwards - ReactOS and Wine developer
>
> "There is one thing stronger than all the armies in the world, and
> that is an idea whose time has come." - Victor Hugo
>
> Ros-dev mailing list
> [e-mail]
> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev

Brandon

[Jerry]

I think there should be a bare minimum donation per copy and then an 
option for the website visitors to be a bit more generous if they want 
to be.

Brandon Turner wrote:
> Steven Edwards wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > On 1/12/06, Wesley Parish [e-mail] wrote:
> > > If the worst comes to the worst, there's plenty of room on this 
> > > jugular to go
> > > for.
> >
> > Well we need money to mount a case and I think Alex and I have come up
> > with a solution to the problem. I hope that someone will Wiki this for
> > me. Also if we do decide to follow through on this plan we need to
> > wage the largest public relations war possible.
> >
> > I propose that from now on all CVS builds have the SFN-LFN code
> > disabled in the vfat driver and that in stage2 setup we have a gui
> > tool that loads like the vmware driver installer that contains a
> > dialog with checkboxes like the following:
> >
> > Patented Features Page
> > [] Enable FreeType Patented Features
> > [] Enable Fat32 Patented Features
> >
> > Disclaimer Text., Yada, Yada, Yada
> >
> > I understand that for freetype we may have to have a autodownloader
> > that redirects to somewhere outside of the United States but for the
> > fat features I think we can follow the Microsoft design and make it a
> > registry key.
> >
> > Now the part of this plan where it comes to making money to fight the
> > patent I have to thank Alex for. He suggested that we just charge
> > $0.35 per download and pay Microsoft the $0.25 per license they want,
> > so we would make a profit. I personally hate this idea but it got me
> > thinking. We could have a download page that offers two builds. The
> > download page should clearly explain the situation about the patent
> > and contain a paypal link for donations plus have a option to download
> > a build with the patent enabled for the license free + a small cost to
> > us like Alex said. The ReactOS Foundation would then pay Microsoft per
> > copy sold and take the rest to put in the general party and legal
> > defense fund to mount a case agenst the very patent we are licensing.
>
> Small cost or small donation?  I mean, does the GPL allow us to do 
> this kinda thing?  Also, just to claify, there is nothing stopping 
> someone else from taking our code, enabling the patents and 
> redistrubiting it for free as long as they provide the sources, correct?
> > I am open to comments and or outright rejection of the idea. I don't
> > like the idea of giving Microsoft more money but on the flip side it
> > gives us the chance to spin things for us in the media, bring money in
> > and make them look very bad once we start fighting the case.
>
> Do you truly and honestly believe this will generate enough money to 
> even start a case against MS?
> > -- 
> > Steven Edwards - ReactOS and Wine developer
> >
> > "There is one thing stronger than all the armies in the world, and
> > that is an idea whose time has come." - Victor Hugo
> >
> > Ros-dev mailing list
> > [e-mail]
> > http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>
> Brandon
> _______________________________________________
> Ros-dev mailing list
> [e-mail]
> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev

[Rick Langschultz]

What happened to Free Software...
On Jan 12, 2006, at 10:53 PM, Steven Edwards wrote:
> Hi,
>
> On 1/12/06, Wesley Parish [e-mail] wrote:
> > If the worst comes to the worst, there's plenty of room on this  
> > jugular to go
> > for.
>
> Well we need money to mount a case and I think Alex and I have come up
> with a solution to the problem. I hope that someone will Wiki this for
> me. Also if we do decide to follow through on this plan we need to
> wage the largest public relations war possible.
>
> I propose that from now on all CVS builds have the SFN-LFN code
> disabled in the vfat driver and that in stage2 setup we have a gui
> tool that loads like the vmware driver installer that contains a
> dialog with checkboxes like the following:
>
> Patented Features Page
> [] Enable FreeType Patented Features
> [] Enable Fat32 Patented Features
>
> Disclaimer Text., Yada, Yada, Yada
>
> I understand that for freetype we may have to have a autodownloader
> that redirects to somewhere outside of the United States but for the
> fat features I think we can follow the Microsoft design and make it a
> registry key.
>
> Now the part of this plan where it comes to making money to fight the
> patent I have to thank Alex for. He suggested that we just charge
> $0.35 per download and pay Microsoft the $0.25 per license they want,
> so we would make a profit. I personally hate this idea but it got me
> thinking. We could have a download page that offers two builds. The
> download page should clearly explain the situation about the patent
> and contain a paypal link for donations plus have a option to download
> a build with the patent enabled for the license free + a small cost to
> us like Alex said. The ReactOS Foundation would then pay Microsoft per
> copy sold and take the rest to put in the general party and legal
> defense fund to mount a case agenst the very patent we are licensing.
>
> I am open to comments and or outright rejection of the idea. I don't
> like the idea of giving Microsoft more money but on the flip side it
> gives us the chance to spin things for us in the media, bring money in
> and make them look very bad once we start fighting the case.
>
> --
> Steven Edwards - ReactOS and Wine developer
>
> "There is one thing stronger than all the armies in the world, and
> that is an idea whose time has come." - Victor Hugo
>
> Ros-dev mailing list
> [e-mail]
> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev

[Richard]

Rick Langschultz wrote:
> What happened to Free Software...

<snip>

Corporations are pushing it out of existence.  ReactOS cannot continue 
to use patented features without properly licensing these features.  To 
do so would endanger the project.  Which would you rather have, pay a 
small fee to use the patented features or not use the patented features 
at all?

[Rick Langschultz]

I would rather pay the fees, as a developer I get to try new  
software, older software, and then decide. I would rather see ReactOS  
use something more stable than FAT or FAT32. XFS, EXT3, or Reiser  
would be better choices for file systems. However I understand that  
developing a Virtual File System to access those other file systems  
would be complex and take weeks, months, if not years to do.

I would rather not use Microsoft Software at all. That is why I  
bought an Apple computer at least they are stable and don't BSOD when  
installing new drivers, software, or browsing the net.

Instead of $.35 for an ISO image why not just round up the the  
nearest dollar? This would allow ReactOS to pay Microsoft for more  
copies as well as returning more profit to the group... Plus my bank  
charges me for transactions online. It sucks but to be charged 1  
dollar for a .35 cent download is ridiculous.

i choose to keep software free while maintaining IP.
On Jan 12, 2006, at 11:25 PM, Richard wrote:
> Rick Langschultz wrote:
> > What happened to Free Software...
>
> <snip>
>
> Corporations are pushing it out of existence.  ReactOS cannot  
> continue to use patented features without properly licensing these  
> features.  To do so would endanger the project.  Which would you  
> rather have, pay a small fee to use the patented features or not  
> use the patented features at all?
> _______________________________________________
> Ros-dev mailing list
> [e-mail]
> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev

[Simon Cornelius P. Umacob]

Richard wrote:
> Which would you rather have, pay a
> small fee to use the patented features or not use the patented features 
> at all?

Fight or disregard the patent? :)
-- 
And /usr/games/fortune futurama says:

    Leela: You guys distract the were-car, and I'll kill it by plugging 
its exhaust pipe with this silver potato.

[Wesley Parish]

On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 03:16, Simon Cornelius P. Umacob wrote:
> Richard wrote:
> > Which would you rather have, pay a
> > small fee to use the patented features or not use the patented features
> > at all?
>
> Fight or disregard the patent? :)

We should ask the FSF for their opinion on this matter - I think Moglen's 
likely to come up with some better ideas than I for one, can come up with.

And as I said, the idea of long file names - hidden in a separate file - was 
in use for at least 5 years before Microsoft came out with MS Win95.  So the 
patent is bogus, fraudulent and more an attempt to bail people up like 
highwaymen and rob them than anything to do with legitimate business.

Talk to Moglen - this is what he's trained for, after all.

Wesley Parish
-- 
Clinersterton beademung, with all of love - RIP James Blish
-----
Mau e ki, he aha te mea nui?
You ask, what is the most important thing?
Maku e ki, he tangata, he tangata, he tangata.
I reply, it is people, it is people, it is people.

[Ge van Geldorp]

> From: Wesley Parish
>
> And as I said, the idea of long file names - hidden in a 
> separate file - was in use for at least 5 years before 
> Microsoft came out with MS Win95.  So the patent is bogus,

This is not what the patent protects. The patent protects storing a long and
a short version of the filename in the same directory. That's different from
storing a long filename in a separate hidden file.

GvG

[D. Hazelton]

On Friday 13 January 2006 04:45, Wesley Parish wrote:
> On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 03:16, Simon Cornelius P. Umacob wrote:
> > Richard wrote:
> > > Which would you rather have, pay a
> > > small fee to use the patented features or not use the patented features
> > > at all?
> >
> > Fight or disregard the patent? :)
>
> We should ask the FSF for their opinion on this matter - I think Moglen's
> likely to come up with some better ideas than I for one, can come up with.
>
> And as I said, the idea of long file names - hidden in a separate file -
> was in use for at least 5 years before Microsoft came out with MS Win95. 
> So the patent is bogus, fraudulent and more an attempt to bail people up
> like highwaymen and rob them than anything to do with legitimate business.

Go ahead and contact the FSF - they are likely to tell you to take the route 
the FreeType project has done. Research I've been doing since learning of the 
USPTO ruling shows that the three patents confirmed recently (about LFN's) 
were confirmed because they are not about storing LFN's in a separate file, 
bu in the same directory as part of the actual record keeping data of the 
filesystem.

More research also shows that MS has three _other_ patents on the FAT system 
although I have been unable to locate the text of these patents. I will keep 
looking - I've been waiting for ReactOS to become a stable enough environment 
for me to be able to suggest it as an alternative... Though I only recently 
learned of it.

DRH

[Richard]

Disregarding the patent will eventually get noticed.  Microsoft would 
not hesitate to sue this project.

Wesley Parish wrote:
> On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 03:16, Simon Cornelius P. Umacob wrote:
> > Richard wrote:
> > > Which would you rather have, pay a
> > > small fee to use the patented features or not use the patented features
> > > at all?
> >
> > Fight or disregard the patent? :)
>
> We should ask the FSF for their opinion on this matter - I think Moglen's 
> likely to come up with some better ideas than I for one, can come up with.
>
> And as I said, the idea of long file names - hidden in a separate file - was 
> in use for at least 5 years before Microsoft came out with MS Win95.  So the 
> patent is bogus, fraudulent and more an attempt to bail people up like 
> highwaymen and rob them than anything to do with legitimate business.
>
> Talk to Moglen - this is what he's trained for, after all.
>
> Wesley Parish