Hi!
I'm probably a non-person to most people here. This is my first foray into the mailing list as a submitter.
If I may say a few things:
First: No one has a RIGHT to anything. Mailing lists, archives, whatever. You only have whatever options the originators of IP or code decide to give.
Second: For a fully open source project, private lists are Bad News. While they do allow sensitive ideas to be discussed in a more informal setting, they also give the options to have high-level decisions to be made without any community support. I've seen it saidf in this list that the "private" list developers talk abut things that don't affect other developers. WRONG! Anything that the "primary" developers talk about affects the entire development community. Otherwise, there's no reason to duscuss it at all.
Third: While reverse engineering may be legal in Europe, it's only legal in certain circumstances in the US. Open source projects tend to be world-wide in scope. Thus, the most restrictive of laws MUST be applied so that no legal boundaries are crossed. In this case, it looks like the US has laws that do not exist elsewhere. Likewise, the US has one of the largest "markets" for software, so the US can't be discounted unless we wish to develop a Europe-only OS. Thus, no matter what, we have to follow the restrictive US laws on reverse engineering. Despite any personal feelings, laws must be upheld.
Fourth: Re: dirty laundry. This is almost a non-starter. Yes, some things were said that caused a bit of an uproar. Yes, the project is being held up in some respects. On the other hand, we have enough people here who care enough to give voice to their opinions AND who care enough to see the project succeed that the idea that "dirty laundry" being aired in public being a bad thing is absurd. The results say otherwise. Politics has NO place in an engineering project. None. Ever. Don't let the idea of politics creep in and kill an otherwise wonderful thing.
Fifth: Personal attacks here are without doubt, worthless. This is a list for developers, coders, and engineers. To call someone's attitude ridiculous goes right back into my previous statement about politics.
Sixth: I would like to thank you all for reading my post, whether you agree or not. In the end, I speak for no one but myself, and you can take what I say however you want.
Dann Smith Dallas, TX, US
-----Original Message----- From: ros-dev-bounces@reactos.org [mailto:ros-dev-bounces@reactos.org] On Behalf Of Rick Langschultz Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2006 6:27 PM To: ReactOS Development List Subject: Re: [ros-dev] What Happened
Don't get me wrong, reactos is a great programming idea. The way some people do things is not necessarily what the community would want. As a long term web developer I had an interest in VFS implementation of NTFS over FAT or other filesystem. Creating a private mailing list not available to the community restricts information from getting to developers that want to continue to develop reactos, whether they commit or not. Everyone has the right to develop what they think ReactOS needs. Personally I think ReactOS needs stable Networking, a more stable and secure filesystem, and service implementation. I also think that building a universal install disk would be great -- install on PowerPC, intel, arm, all on one cd would be great. I am not willing to give up on programming projects so I will continue developing code, but when the audit is complete I just hope 99% of the community is there to back ReactOS up...
On Feb 8, 2006, at 4:05 PM, Ged Murphy wrote:
Rick Langschultz wrote:
"The ReactOS(r) project is dedicated to making Free Software available to everyone by providing a ground-up implementation of a Microsoft Windows(r) XP compatible operating system." Why not say I am sorry ReactOS is off limits to you, the community, because people steal, cheat and lie. It is said that good programmers steal code, and great programmers know whose code to steal... Stealing M$ code is obviously not the wisest choice...
I will continue to develop my own personal ReactOS code but I don't think I will contribute it to ReactOS. My implementation of the NT VFS over FAT will be rolled into a new project. And be able to be downloaded by ROS developers and community members.
Ridiculous...
As is your attitude ...
The ReactOS developers have spent thousands upon thousands of hours writing a free operating system for the world to use. It has become so large now, that the inner workings are becoming business like, and measures must be put into place to deal with this. If you can't accept that developers need a place where they can discuss topics, have arguments and sort out issues, out of the public eye then that's your problem. I'm positive Linux and BSD have somewhere where developers can discuss issues, as do most other large (and even small) projects Maybe we should take minutes of any telephone conversations we have and post those too?
I for one am glad you won't be committing any code. You attitude sounds like it would generate more problems than it's worth. _______________________________________________ Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
_______________________________________________ Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
Dann B. Smith wrote:
First: No one has a RIGHT to anything. Mailing lists, archives, whatever. You only have whatever options the originators of IP or code decide to give.
Correct
Second: For a fully open source project, private lists are Bad News. While they do allow sensitive ideas to be discussed in a more informal setting, they also give the options to have high-level decisions to be made without any community support. I've seen it saidf in this list that the "private" list developers talk abut things that don't affect other developers. WRONG! Anything that the "primary" developers talk about affects the entire development community. Otherwise, there's no reason to duscuss it at all.
Incorrect. MANY of those on the private list will not countenance high-level decisions being made. The list was created specifically for purposes of performing the auditing without exposing anybody to any more legal trouble (if any) than necessary.
Fourth: Re: dirty laundry. This is almost a non-starter. Yes, some things were said that caused a bit of an uproar. Yes, the project is being held up in some respects. On the other hand, we have enough people here who care enough to give voice to their opinions AND who care enough to see the project succeed that the idea that "dirty laundry" being aired in public being a bad thing is absurd. The results say otherwise. Politics has NO place in an engineering project. None. Ever. Don't let the idea of politics creep in and kill an otherwise wonderful thing.
Those of you who are not active developers do not have all the information on what has happened. You don't know all the dirty laundry, and don't need to know. You shouldn't speculate on what effect it will have on the project when you don't know what it is.
Fourth: Re: dirty laundry. This is almost a non-starter. Yes, some things were said that caused a bit of an uproar. Yes, the project is being held up in some respects. On the other hand, we have enough people here who care enough to give voice to their opinions AND who care enough to see the project succeed that the idea that "dirty laundry" being aired in public being a bad thing is absurd. The results say otherwise. Politics has NO place in an engineering project. None. Ever. Don't let the idea of politics creep in and kill an otherwise wonderful thing.
Fifth: Personal attacks here are without doubt, worthless. This is a list for developers, coders, and engineers. To call someone's attitude ridiculous goes right back into my previous statement about politics.
I agree hole-heartedly.
"Need-To-Know" is a governments way of admiting to its people that its got a problem (its screwed up). Just how many people where reading the dev list when the laundry bag was emptyed. If someone wanted to know, i'de just email-em the back copys of the offending email. but im not about "who's got the biggest sword", so, if this is just about hiding sh*t, its too late for that.
I have said it before and I will say it again.... this time around please actually read what I am saying and think about it. We are not hiding anything, we arent trying to cover anything up. We don't use this private mailing list that much even. You took someones simple comment and have blwon it way out of proportion. In general all we talked about how we are going to do the audit and what needs to be done during the audit. For example we discussed a new way to carry out the audit, and now we are voting on it and all details are known to the public. It is nothing special, however some of it is imcrimnating in a sense to some people and they dont want it to be known the public. Whats so wrong with that?
Brandon
Brian wrote:
Fourth: Re: dirty laundry. This is almost a non-starter. Yes, some things were said that caused a bit of an uproar. Yes, the project is being held up in some respects. On the other hand, we have enough people here who care enough to give voice to their opinions AND who care enough to see the project succeed that the idea that "dirty laundry" being aired in public being a bad thing is absurd. The results say otherwise. Politics has NO place in an engineering project. None. Ever. Don't let the idea of politics creep in and kill an otherwise wonderful thing.
Fifth: Personal attacks here are without doubt, worthless. This is a list for developers, coders, and engineers. To call someone's attitude ridiculous goes right back into my previous statement about politics.
I agree hole-heartedly.
"Need-To-Know" is a governments way of admiting to its people that its got a problem (its screwed up). Just how many people where reading the dev list when the laundry bag was emptyed. If someone wanted to know, i'de just email-em the back copys of the offending email. but im not about "who's got the biggest sword", so, if this is just about hiding sh*t, its too late for that.
Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
I am real sorry, but i believe that you have mis-read my comment, and have blown it compleatly out of control...
For example we discussed a new way to carry out the audit, and now we are voting on it and all details are known to the public.
you can't justify the hidding of this information in the first place. Quite the oppose, it would have been more apporpreate to keep this compleately public.
It is nothing special, however some of it is imcrimnating in a sense to some people and they dont want it to be known the public.
Unless this is their personal information (wtf would that be doin in exchange between devs of a public project), if they broke the law regarding ReactOS, a 'open' project, they are inclined to publish the details.
brian friend of ReactOS
Brian wrote:
I am real sorry, but i believe that you have mis-read my comment, and have blown it compleatly out of control...
For example we discussed a new way to carry out the audit, and now we are voting on it and all details are known to the public.
you can't justify the hidding of this information in the first place. Quite the oppose, it would have been more apporpreate to keep this compleately public.
It is nothing special, however some of it is imcrimnating in a sense to some people and they dont want it to be known the public.
Unless this is their personal information (wtf would that be doin in exchange between devs of a public project), if they broke the law regarding ReactOS, a 'open' project, they are inclined to publish the details.
You are so right, I didnt even think about that. We have to divulge our whole lives and everything we have ever said because the GPL demands we release details about everything about a project. Well, now that I understand here is summary everything that I have ever said on on ros-priv:
1) I looked at leaked windows source code and I dont think I am a tainted developer, however I am willing to remove myself from the project if it is requested. 2) I have never reversed engineered anything using disassembly. 3) I suggested a useful project for Ged to do for his master degree. 4) I had a question about how developers blogs worked on the website. 5) I expressed my views that I agreed with the publicly announced plan to get work on ROS going again. 6) My skype name is BrandonMarkTurner
Now can you explain why all that needed to be public? In regards to #1, why did you have to know what I have done, am I a special case because I am a developer? Same goes for #2. #3, well that isnt important all from what I can tell. #4, yes I had a question about how the developers blog system worked, why does that need to be public information, do non developers use our blog system? #5, I agreed with someone plan that was publicly announced and figured I wanted to inform other people what I thought about a topic only we can vote on. #6, great now everyone that is subscribed to ros-dev can call me, prefect!
Now that i released my private information which you insisted needed to be public, can I have your social sercuity number, your mothers maiden name, and your city of birth. Without this information I just wont be able to develop ROS as well!
brian friend of ReactOS
Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
Brandon
I am sorry you have misunderstood me...
Unless this is their personal information.....
I have absolutely no problem with your encounter w/ the leaked source, and apologise for any greef put into your life because of this radical turn of events. forget not that i defended alex, and i would defend you in such accusations. I cant say what you did is honest, but ReactOS will grow, hopefully, and will Respond in a more apporpreate manner if this ever happens again... Im leaven for another month or two.
brian friend of ReactOS
never had leaked source u did assuemet again stop doing and fuck u
----- Original Message ----- From: Brian To: ReactOS Development List Sent: den 13 February 2006 20:46 Subject: Re: [ros-dev] What Happened
I am sorry you have misunderstood me...
Unless this is their personal information.....
I have absolutely no problem with your encounter w/ the leaked source, and apologise for any greef put into your life because of this radical turn of events. forget not that i defended alex, and i would defend you in such accusations. I cant say what you did is honest, but ReactOS will grow, hopefully, and will Respond in a more apporpreate manner if this ever happens again... Im leaven for another month or two.
brian friend of ReactOS
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_______________________________________________ Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
Magnus Olsen schrieb:
never had leaked source u did assuemet again stop doing and fuck u
He never said you had, he was talking to Brandon Turner.
For the guys who don't know, why it MIGHT BE important to keep secrets and not tell things to everyone, you should watch the tv-series "24", there are some really good examples, about what could happen. Often the mass-panic (and that's what we had here, when the word spread ReactOS contains leaked MS-code and code copied from dissassembly) is worse than the problem itself.
Just for those of you, who think hiding information is a bad thing to do. Never forget this list is public and not everybody here is intelligent and has knowledge about the topic.
I don't say YOU are a stupid idiot, I just want to express, that you have to be carefull what you write to this list.
AND I never said, the devs were hiding information, that could be of interest for the broad public, but if they did, they had their reasons, and I think they shouldn't be put into question.
Greets,
David Hinz
----- Original Message ----- *From:* Brian <mailto:briandabrain@gmail.com> *To:* ReactOS Development List <mailto:ros-dev@reactos.org> *Sent:* den 13 February 2006 20:46 *Subject:* Re: [ros-dev] What Happened I am sorry you have misunderstood me... >Unless this is their personal information..... I have absolutely no problem with your encounter w/ the leaked source, and apologise for any greef put into your life because of this radical turn of events. forget not that i defended alex, and i would defend you in such accusations. I cant say what you did is honest, but ReactOS will grow, hopefully, and will Respond in a more apporpreate manner if this ever happens again... Im leaven for another month or two. brian friend of ReactOS
At least someone is capable of understanding context. I am truly sorry to this project about the childishness me tryin to clearly explain something simple has brought. i wish mearly to understand fully the ideas present in a major portion of the source. i am a student dev; my soul intention if to spectate and fully understand the dev process. I also observed to see wether code has become a form of art amongst the online community. in order to find this, i came to this project, mostly because of its young age. Now, i have seen just how childish devs can be. I will unsubscribe from this list today. I will keep my archive of msgs, and will watch the svn, but this project has too many children for me.
Some silly levity may be of help about now?
Everyone is so serious... Relax and Enjoy. ROS is great!
Happy days are here again..... The skys above are clear again. So lets sing a song of good cheer again. Happy days are here again!!!
All together shout it now..
There's no one who can doubt in now, so lets tell the world about it now, Happy days are here again. Your cares and troubles are gone.. There will be no more for now on,
Happy days are here again. The skys above are clear again. So lets sing a song of cheer again. Happy times, Happy nights, HAPPY DAYS ARE HERE AGAIN!!!!!!!
:-)
hello
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We are a open source project all project even open source have private mails and talk about thing need deal with and that info are not ready yet to be release to public until we know how to deal with the stitautsion. I was thinking of harthumt mail. That info should have been release to public when we need to know what need to be done. thx to that mail the whole ros devloping have stop. Until we know how to countine on this project. and what rules shall be applay.
if u are not happy with private mail and talk betwin devloper. then
Go to hell and stop mailing. People like u and other. I often wonder if it wort to stay in reactos. some devloper have talk into me to stay in reactos.
What I am doing in my work and private time is person info, and I only release some part about my self.
----- Original Message ----- From: Brian To: ReactOS Development List Sent: den 13 February 2006 19:42 Subject: Re: [ros-dev] What Happened
I am real sorry, but i believe that you have mis-read my comment, and have blown it compleatly out of control...
For example we discussed a new way to carry out the audit, and now we are voting on it and all details are known to the public.
you can't justify the hidding of this information in the first place. Quite the oppose, it would have been more apporpreate to keep this compleately public.
It is nothing special, however some of it is imcrimnating in a sense to some people and they dont want it to be known the public.
Unless this is their personal information (wtf would that be doin in exchange between devs of a public project), if they broke the law regarding ReactOS, a 'open' project, they are inclined to publish the details.
brian friend of ReactOS
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Brandon Turner -
Brian -
Dann B. Smith -
David Hinz -
Kenneth Long -
Magnus Olsen -
Royce Mitchell III