RE: [ros-dev] What Happened

[Dann B. Smith]

Hi!

I'm probably a non-person to most people here.  This is my first foray
into the mailing list as a submitter.

If I may say a few things:

First:  No one has a RIGHT to anything.  Mailing lists, archives,
whatever.   You only have whatever options the originators of IP or code
decide to give.

Second:  For a fully open source project, private lists are Bad News.
While they do allow sensitive ideas to be discussed in a more informal
setting, they also give the options to have high-level decisions to be
made without any community support.  I've seen it saidf in this list
that the "private" list developers talk abut things that don't affect
other developers.  WRONG!  Anything that the "primary" developers talk
about affects the entire development community.  Otherwise, there's no
reason to duscuss it at all.

Third:  While reverse engineering may be legal in Europe, it's only
legal in certain circumstances in the US.  Open source projects tend to
be world-wide in scope.  Thus, the most restrictive of laws MUST be
applied so that no legal boundaries are crossed.  In this case, it looks
like the US has laws that do not exist elsewhere.  Likewise, the US has
one of the largest "markets" for software, so the US can't be discounted
unless we wish to develop a Europe-only OS.  Thus, no matter what, we
have to follow the restrictive US laws on reverse engineering.  Despite
any personal feelings, laws must be upheld.  

Fourth: Re: dirty laundry.  This is almost a non-starter.  Yes, some
things were said that caused a bit of an uproar.  Yes, the project is
being held up in some respects.  On the other hand, we have enough
people here who care enough to give voice to their opinions AND who care
enough to see the project succeed that the idea that "dirty laundry"
being aired in public being a bad thing is absurd.  The results say
otherwise.  Politics has NO place in an engineering project.  None.
Ever.  Don't let the idea of politics creep in and kill an otherwise
wonderful thing.

Fifth:  Personal attacks here are without doubt, worthless.  This is a
list for developers, coders, and engineers.  To call someone's attitude
ridiculous goes right back into my previous statement about politics.  

Sixth:  I would like to thank you all for reading my post, whether you
agree or not.  In the end, I speak for no one but myself, and you can
take what I say however you want.  

Dann Smith
Dallas, TX, US

-----Original Message-----
From: ros-dev-bounces(a)reactos.org [mailto:[e-mail]]
On Behalf Of Rick Langschultz
Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2006 6:27 PM
To: ReactOS Development List
Subject: Re: [ros-dev] What Happened

Don't get me wrong, reactos is a great programming idea. The way some
people do things is not necessarily what the community would want. As a
long term web developer I had an interest in VFS implementation of NTFS
over FAT or other filesystem. Creating a private mailing list not
available to the community restricts information from getting to
developers that want to continue to develop reactos, whether they commit
or not. Everyone has the right to develop what they think ReactOS needs.
Personally I think ReactOS needs stable Networking, a more stable and
secure filesystem, and service implementation. I also think that
building a universal install disk would be great -- install on PowerPC,
intel, arm, all on one cd would be great. I am not willing to give up on
programming projects so I will continue developing code, but when the
audit is complete I just hope 99% of the community is there to back
ReactOS up...


On Feb 8, 2006, at 4:05 PM, Ged Murphy wrote:

>   Rick Langschultz wrote:
> >   "The ReactOS(r) project is dedicated to
> > making Free Software 
> >  available to everyone by providing a ground-up implementation of a 
> >  Microsoft Windows(r) XP compatible operating system." Why not say I 
> >  am sorry ReactOS is off limits to you, the community, because people 
> >  steal, cheat and lie. It is said that good programmers steal code, 
> >  and great programmers know whose code to steal...
> >  Stealing M$ code is obviously not the wisest choice...
> >
> >  I will continue to develop my own personal ReactOS code but I don't 
> >  think I will contribute it to ReactOS. My implementation of the NT 
> >  VFS over FAT will be rolled into a new project. And be able to be 
> >  downloaded by ROS developers and community members.
> >
> >  Ridiculous... 
>  As is your attitude ...
>
>  The ReactOS developers have spent thousands upon thousands of hours 
>  writing a free operating system for the world to use.
>  It has become so large now, that the inner workings are becoming 
>  business like, and measures must be put into place to deal with this.
>  If you can't accept that developers need a place where they can 
>  discuss topics, have arguments and sort out issues, out of the public 
>  eye then that's your problem. I'm positive Linux and BSD have 
>  somewhere where developers can discuss issues, as do most other large 
>  (and even small) projects  Maybe we should take minutes of any 
>  telephone conversations we have and post those too?
>
>  I for one am glad you won't be committing any code. You attitude 
>  sounds like it would generate more problems than it's worth.
>  _______________________________________________
>  Ros-dev mailing list
>  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
>  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev 
_______________________________________________
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[Royce Mitchell III]

Dann B. Smith wrote:

>  First:  No one has a RIGHT to anything.  Mailing lists,
> archives,
> whatever.   You only have whatever options the originators of IP or code
> decide to give.
>   
>  
Correct

>  Second:  For a fully open source project, private lists
> are Bad News.
> While they do allow sensitive ideas to be discussed in a more informal
> setting, they also give the options to have high-level decisions to be
> made without any community support.  I've seen it saidf in this list
> that the "private" list developers talk abut things that don't affect
> other developers.  WRONG!  Anything that the "primary" developers talk
> about affects the entire development community.  Otherwise, there's no
> reason to duscuss it at all.
>   
>  
Incorrect. MANY of those on the private list will not countenance 
high-level decisions being made. The list was created specifically for 
purposes of performing the auditing without exposing anybody to any more 
legal trouble (if any) than necessary.

>   Fourth: Re: dirty laundry.  This is almost a
> non-starter.  Yes, some
>  things were said that caused a bit of an uproar.  Yes, the project is
>  being held up in some respects.  On the other hand, we have enough
>  people here who care enough to give voice to their opinions AND who care
>  enough to see the project succeed that the idea that "dirty laundry"
>  being aired in public being a bad thing is absurd.  The results say
>  otherwise.  Politics has NO place in an engineering project.  None.
>  Ever.  Don't let the idea of politics creep in and kill an otherwise
>  wonderful thing. 
Those of you who are not active developers do not have all the information on what has
happened. You don't know all the dirty laundry, and don't need to know. You
shouldn't speculate on what effect it will have on the project when you don't know
what it is.

[Brian]

>  Fourth: Re: dirty laundry.  This is almost a
> non-starter.  Yes, some
> things were said that caused a bit of an uproar.  Yes, the project is
> being held up in some respects.  On the other hand, we have enough
> people here who care enough to give voice to their opinions AND who care
> enough to see the project succeed that the idea that "dirty laundry"
> being aired in public being a bad thing is absurd.  The results say
> otherwise.  Politics has NO place in an engineering project.  None.
> Ever.  Don't let the idea of politics creep in and kill an otherwise
> wonderful thing. 
>  Fifth:  Personal attacks here are without doubt,
> worthless.  This is a
> list for developers, coders, and engineers.  To call someone's attitude
> ridiculous goes right back into my previous statement about politics. 
I agree hole-heartedly.

"Need-To-Know" is a governments way of admiting to its people that its got a
problem (its screwed up). Just how many people where reading the dev list
when the laundry bag was emptyed. If someone wanted to know, i'de just
email-em the back copys of the offending email. but im not about "who's got
the biggest sword", so, if this is just about hiding sh*t, its too late for
that.

[Brandon Turner]

I have said it before and I will say it again.... this time around 
please actually read what I am saying and think about it.   We are not 
hiding anything, we arent trying to cover anything up.  We don't use 
this private mailing list that much even.  You took someones simple 
comment and have blwon it way out of proportion.  In general all we 
talked about how we are going to do the audit and what needs to be done 
during the audit.  For example we discussed a new way to carry out the 
audit, and now we are voting on it and all details are known to the 
public.  It is nothing special, however some of it is imcrimnating in a 
sense to some people and they dont want it to be known the public.  
Whats so wrong with that? 

Brandon

Brian wrote:

> >  Fourth: Re:
> > dirty laundry.  This is almost a non-starter.  Yes, some
> > things were said that caused a bit of an uproar.  Yes, the project is
> > being held up in some respects.  On the other hand, we have enough
> > people here who care enough to give voice to their opinions AND who care
> > enough to see the project succeed that the idea that "dirty laundry"
> > being aired in public being a bad thing is absurd.  The results say
> > otherwise.  Politics has NO place in an engineering project.  None.
> > Ever.  Don't let the idea of politics creep in and kill an otherwise
> > wonderful thing. 
> >  Fifth:  Personal attacks here are without doubt,
> > worthless.  This is a
> > list for developers, coders, and engineers.  To call someone's attitude
> > ridiculous goes right back into my previous statement about politics. 
>  I agree hole-heartedly.
>
>  "Need-To-Know" is a governments way of admiting to its people that its 
>  got a problem (its screwed up). Just how many people where reading the 
>  dev list when the laundry bag was emptyed. If someone wanted to know, 
>  i'de just email-em the back copys of the offending email. but im not 
>  about "who's got the biggest sword", so, if this is just about hiding 
>  sh*t, its too late for that.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ros-dev mailing list
> Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>

[Brian]

I am real sorry, but i believe that you have mis-read my comment, and have
blown it compleatly out of control...

>  For example we discussed a new way to carry out the
> audit, and now we are voting on it and all details are known to the
> public. 
you can't justify the hidding of this information in the first place. Quite
the oppose, it would have been more apporpreate to keep this compleately
public.

>  It is nothing special, however some of it is
> imcrimnating in a
> sense to some people and they dont want it to be known the public. 
Unless this is their personal information (wtf would that be doin in
exchange between devs of a public project), if they broke the law regarding
ReactOS, a 'open' project, they are inclined to publish the details.

brian
friend of ReactOS

[Brandon Turner]

Brian wrote:

>   I am real sorry, but i believe that you have mis-read
> my comment, and 
>  have blown it compleatly out of control...
>
> >  For example we discussed a new way to carry out
> > the
> > audit, and now we are voting on it and all details are known to the
> > public. 
>  you can't justify the hidding of this information in the first place. 
>  Quite the oppose, it would have been more apporpreate to keep this 
>  compleately public.
>
> >  It is nothing special, however some of it is
> > imcrimnating in a
> > sense to some people and they dont want it to be known the public. 
>  Unless this is their personal information (wtf would that be doin in 
>  exchange between devs of a public project), if they broke the law 
>  regarding ReactOS, a 'open' project, they are inclined to publish the 
>  details. 
You are so right, I didnt even think about that.  We have to divulge our 
whole lives and everything we have ever said because the GPL demands we 
release details about everything about a project.  Well, now that I 
understand here is summary everything that I have ever said on on ros-priv:

1) I looked at leaked windows source code and I dont think I am a 
tainted developer, however I am willing to remove myself from the 
project if it is requested.
2) I have never reversed engineered anything using disassembly.
3) I suggested a useful project for Ged to do for his master degree.
4) I had a question about how developers blogs worked on the website.
5) I expressed my views that I agreed with the publicly announced plan 
to get work on ROS going again.
6) My skype name is BrandonMarkTurner

Now can you explain why all that needed to be public?  In regards to #1, 
why did you have to know what I have done, am I a special case because I 
am a developer? Same goes for #2.  #3, well that isnt important all from 
what I can tell. #4, yes I had a question about how the developers blog 
system worked, why does that need to be public information, do non 
developers use our blog system? #5, I agreed with someone plan that was 
publicly announced and figured I wanted to inform other people what I 
thought about a topic only we can vote on. #6, great now everyone that 
is subscribed to ros-dev can call me, prefect!

Now that i released my private information which you insisted needed to 
be public, can I have your social sercuity number, your mothers maiden 
name, and your city of birth.  Without this information I just wont be 
able to develop ROS as well!

>  
>  brian
>  friend of ReactOS
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ros-dev mailing list
> Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>  
Brandon

[Brian]

I am sorry you have misunderstood me...

>  Unless this is their personal information..... 
I have absolutely no problem with your encounter w/ the leaked source, and
apologise for any greef put into your life because of this radical turn of
events. forget not that i defended alex, and i would defend you in such
accusations. I  cant say what you did is honest, but ReactOS will grow,
hopefully, and will Respond in a more apporpreate manner if this ever
happens again...
Im leaven for another month or two.

brian
friend of ReactOS

[Magnus Olsen]

 never had leaked source u did assuemet again 
stop doing 
and fuck u

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Brian 
  To: ReactOS Development List 
  Sent: den 13 February 2006 20:46
  Subject: Re: [ros-dev] What Happened


  I am sorry you have misunderstood me...

>  Unless this is their personal information..... 
  I have absolutely no problem with your encounter w/ the leaked source, and apologise for
any greef put into your life because of this radical turn of events. forget not that i
defended alex, and i would defend you in such accusations. I  cant say what you did is
honest, but ReactOS will grow, hopefully, and will Respond in a more apporpreate manner if
this ever happens again... 
  Im leaven for another month or two.

  brian
  friend of ReactOS




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[David Hinz]

Magnus Olsen schrieb:
>    never had leaked source u did assuemet again
>  stop doing
>  and fuck u 
He never said you had, he was talking to Brandon Turner.

For the guys who don't know, why it MIGHT BE important to keep secrets 
and not tell things to everyone, you should watch the tv-series "24", 
there are some really good examples, about what could happen.
Often the mass-panic (and that's what we had here, when the word spread 
ReactOS contains leaked MS-code and code copied from dissassembly) is 
worse than the problem itself.

Just for those of you, who think hiding information is a bad thing to do.
Never forget this list is public and not everybody here is intelligent 
and has knowledge about the topic.

I don't say YOU are a stupid idiot, I just want to express, that you 
have to be carefull what you write to this list.

AND I never said, the devs were hiding information, that could be of 
interest for the broad public, but if they did, they had their reasons, 
and I think they shouldn't be put into question.

Greets,

David Hinz

>   
>      ----- Original Message -----
>      *From:* Brian <mailto:[e-mail]>
>      *To:* ReactOS Development List <mailto:[e-mail]>
>      *Sent:* den 13 February 2006 20:46
>      *Subject:* Re: [ros-dev] What Happened
>  
>      I am sorry you have misunderstood me...
>  
> >  Unless this is their personal information.....
>  
>      I have absolutely no problem with your encounter w/ the leaked
>      source, and apologise for any greef put into your life because of
>      this radical turn of events. forget not that i defended alex, and i
>      would defend you in such accusations. I  cant say what you did is
>      honest, but ReactOS will grow, hopefully, and will Respond in a more
>      apporpreate manner if this ever happens again...
>      Im leaven for another month or two.
>  
>      brian
>      friend of ReactOS

[Brian]

At least someone is capable of understanding context. I am truly sorry to
this project about the childishness me tryin to clearly explain something
simple has brought. i wish mearly to understand fully the ideas present in a
major portion of the source. i am a student dev; my soul intention if to
spectate and fully understand the dev process. I also observed to see wether
code has become a form of art amongst the online community. in order to find
this, i came to this project, mostly because of its young age.
Now, i have seen just how childish devs can be. I will unsubscribe from this
list today. I will keep my archive of msgs, and will watch the svn, but this
project has too many children for me.

[Kenneth Long]

Some silly levity may be of help about now?

Everyone is so serious... 
Relax and Enjoy.  ROS is great!

Happy days are here again.....
The skys above are clear again. 
So lets sing a song of good cheer again. 
Happy days are here again!!! 

All together shout it now..

There's no one who can doubt in now, 
so lets tell the world about it now, 
Happy days are here again. 
Your cares and troubles are gone..
There will be no more for now on, 

Happy days are here again. 
The skys above are clear again. 
So lets sing a song of cheer again.
Happy times, Happy nights, 
HAPPY DAYS ARE HERE AGAIN!!!!!!!

:-)



hello

__________________________________________________
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[Magnus Olsen]

We are a open source project
all project even open source have private mails and talk about thing need deal with and
that info are not ready yet to be release to public until we know how to deal with the
stitautsion. I was thinking of harthumt mail. That info should have been release to public
when we need to know what need to be done. thx to that mail the whole ros devloping have
stop. Until we know how to countine on this project. and what rules shall be applay. 

if u are not happy with private mail and talk betwin devloper. then 

Go to hell and stop mailing. People like u and other. I often wonder if it wort to stay in
reactos. some devloper have talk into me to stay in reactos.

What I am doing in my work and private time is person info, and I only release some part
about my self.  


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Brian 
  To: ReactOS Development List 
  Sent: den 13 February 2006 19:42
  Subject: Re: [ros-dev] What Happened


  I am real sorry, but i believe that you have mis-read my comment, and have blown it
compleatly out of control...

>  For example we discussed a new way to carry out the
> audit, and now we are voting on it and all details are known to the 
> public. 
  you can't justify the hidding of this information in the first place. Quite the
oppose, it would have been more apporpreate to keep this compleately public.

>  It is nothing special, however some of it is
> imcrimnating in a 
> sense to some people and they dont want it to be known the public. 
  Unless this is their personal information (wtf would that be doin in exchange between
devs of a public project), if they broke the law regarding ReactOS, a 'open'
project, they are inclined to publish the details. 

  brian
  friend of ReactOS



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