FullFAT replacement for Fastfat.sys

[James Walmsley]

Hi Everyone,

I just thought I'd introduce myself. I am the author of a new FAT
implementation that was really designed for embedded systems. As such
it provides very good performance. (See www.fullfat-fs.co.uk).

Fireball contacted me a few days ago to discuss the current
development of FullFAT, and since I have agreed to implement an IFS
driver based on FullFAT with a view to replacing the current
fastfat.sys implementation. During the conversation we also discussed
implementing a special journaling extension to FullFAT via the windows
driver.

I hope to start work on this project in the next few weeks, and
further to this I would also like to help in some other areas of
ReactOS. I shall be taking a closer look at the ReactOS code over the
coming weeks, and will probably post some questions about various
aspects. I have just bought the Windows Internals, fifth edition
co-authored by Alex Ionescu, hopefully this will provide me with a
good overview of the Windows architecture etc.

For complete Windows XP compatibility, just how much of the
implementation is currently missing from ReactOS?

Nice to meet you all, and I hope to provide some good contributions to
ReactOS in the near future.

James

--
James Walmsley
----------------------------------------
james(a)worm.me.uk

[Javier Agustìn Fernàndez Arroyo]

Hello James, that sounds exciting!
Welcome to ReactOS! Hope you willl have fun here :)

On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 1:59 PM, James Walmsley <james(a)worm.me.uk> wrote:

>   Hi Everyone,
>
>  I just thought I'd introduce myself. I am the author of a new FAT
>  implementation that was really designed for embedded systems. As such
>  it provides very good performance. (See www.fullfat-fs.co.uk).
>
>  Fireball contacted me a few days ago to discuss the current
>  development of FullFAT, and since I have agreed to implement an IFS
>  driver based on FullFAT with a view to replacing the current
>  fastfat.sys implementation. During the conversation we also discussed
>  implementing a special journaling extension to FullFAT via the windows
>  driver.
>
>  I hope to start work on this project in the next few weeks, and
>  further to this I would also like to help in some other areas of
>  ReactOS. I shall be taking a closer look at the ReactOS code over the
>  coming weeks, and will probably post some questions about various
>  aspects. I have just bought the Windows Internals, fifth edition
>  co-authored by Alex Ionescu, hopefully this will provide me with a
>  good overview of the Windows architecture etc.
>
>  For complete Windows XP compatibility, just how much of the
>  implementation is currently missing from ReactOS?
>
>  Nice to meet you all, and I hope to provide some good contributions to
>  ReactOS in the near future.
>
>  James
>
>  --
>  James Walmsley
>  ----------------------------------------
>  james(a)worm.me.uk
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  Ros-dev mailing list
>  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
>  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>

[Gabriel ilardi]

Hi James,

Welcome to the team!
ReactOS kernel aims to be compatible with W2k3's,  meanwhile Win32 subsystem aims atm
Vista.
You'll come across missing stuff, just search for UNIMPLEMENTED throughout the code.
Encoded started a page with missing functionality here:
http://www.reactos.org/wiki/Missing_ReactOS_Functionality 
Hope you have fun with ReactOS as much as we do...

Gabriel ilardi.

>   Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 13:59:42 +0200
>  From: james(a)worm.me.uk
>  To: ros-dev(a)reactos.org
>  Subject: [ros-dev] FullFAT replacement for Fastfat.sys
>  
>  Hi Everyone,
>  
>  I just thought I'd introduce myself. I am the author of a new FAT
>  implementation that was really designed for embedded systems. As such
>  it provides very good performance. (See www.fullfat-fs.co.uk).
>  
>  Fireball contacted me a few days ago to discuss the current
>  development of FullFAT, and since I have agreed to implement an IFS
>  driver based on FullFAT with a view to replacing the current
>  fastfat.sys implementation. During the conversation we also discussed
>  implementing a special journaling extension to FullFAT via the windows
>  driver.
>  
>  I hope to start work on this project in the next few weeks, and
>  further to this I would also like to help in some other areas of
>  ReactOS. I shall be taking a closer look at the ReactOS code over the
>  coming weeks, and will probably post some questions about various
>  aspects. I have just bought the Windows Internals, fifth edition
>  co-authored by Alex Ionescu, hopefully this will provide me with a
>  good overview of the Windows architecture etc.
>  
>  For complete Windows XP compatibility, just how much of the
>  implementation is currently missing from ReactOS?
>  
>  Nice to meet you all, and I hope to provide some good contributions to
>  ReactOS in the near future.
>  
>  James
>  
>  --
>  James Walmsley
>  ----------------------------------------
>  james(a)worm.me.uk
>  
>  _______________________________________________
>  Ros-dev mailing list
>  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
>  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev 
_________________________________________________________________
Accendi le casse, è ora della Messenger Radio!
http://www.messenger.it/radioMessenger.aspx

[Alex Ionescu]

I'm still at a loss as to why you are all ignoring the free, open  
source, FastFAT driver in the Microsoft WDK.

On 29-Jul-09, at 10:56 AM, Gabriel ilardi wrote:

>   Hi James,
>
>  Welcome to the team!
>  ReactOS kernel aims to be compatible with W2k3's, meanwhile Win32  
>  subsystem aims atm Vista.
>  You'll come across missing stuff, just search for UNIMPLEMENTED  
>  throughout the code. Encoded started a page with missing  
>  functionality here:http://www.reactos.org/wiki/Missing_ReactOS_Functionality
>  Hope you have fun with ReactOS as much as we do...
>
>  Gabriel ilardi.
>
> >   Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 13:59:42 +0200
> >  From: james(a)worm.me.uk
> >  To: ros-dev(a)reactos.org
> >  Subject: [ros-dev] FullFAT replacement for Fastfat.sys
> >
> >  Hi Everyone,
> >
> >  I just thought I'd introduce myself. I am the author of a new FAT
> >  implementation that was really designed for embedded systems. As   
>  such
> >   it provides very good performance. (See
> > www.fullfat-fs.co.uk).
> >
> >  Fireball contacted me a few days ago to discuss the current
> >  development of FullFAT, and since I have agreed to implement an IFS
> >  driver based on FullFAT with a view to replacing the current
> >  fastfat.sys implementation. During the conversation we also   
>  discussed
> >   implementing a special journaling extension to
> > FullFAT via the   
>  windows
> >   driver.
> >
> >  I hope to start work on this project in the next few weeks, and
> >  further to this I would also like to help in some other areas of
> >  ReactOS. I shall be taking a closer look at the ReactOS code over   
>  the
> >   coming weeks, and will probably post some
> > questions about various
> >  aspects. I have just bought the Windows Internals, fifth edition
> >  co-authored by Alex Ionescu, hopefully this will provide me with a
> >  good overview of the Windows architecture etc.
> >
> >  For complete Windows XP compatibility, just how much of the
> >  implementation is currently missing from ReactOS?
> >
> >  Nice to meet you all, and I hope to provide some good   
>  contributions to
> >   ReactOS in the near future.
> >
> >  James
> >
> >  --
> >  James Walmsley
> >  ----------------------------------------
> >  james(a)worm.me.uk
> >
> >  _______________________________________________
> >  Ros-dev mailing list
> >  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
> >  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev 
>  Solo con Messenger, nuovi gadget gratuiti per te. Vieni a scoprirli!  
>  _______________________________________________
>  Ros-dev mailing list
>  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
>  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev 
Best regards,
Alex Ionescu

[Pierre SCHWEITZER]

Hi,

"I'm still at a loss as to why you are all ignoring the free, open source,
FastFAT driver in the Microsoft WDK.". Wasn't it some kind a license problem?
EULA, or something like that? The question rose when ARM ninjas imported CDFS driver from
the Microsoft WDK. They finally had to remove it. Anyway, that's not exactly the
point.

Regarding your initial question, for FSD an important part is missing in ReactOS: FsRTL
package. Moreover, you may (or, you will?) have problems using CC package. But, that's
a good point in fact. That way, we'll be able to implement/debug the needed functions,
with test case.

Finally, I'd like to come back on that idea: "During the conversation we also
discussed implementing a special journaling extension to FullFAT via the windows
driver.". I've to admit I don't see how it can be a good idea. IF everything
goes well, ReactOS will be able to handle two journalised FS: NTFS and ext3. Those are
known, and used FS. Why should we create a "super" FAT instead of using those
FS? What about compatibilty?
A better idea would to handle exFAT...

Best regards,
P. Schweitzer

From: ionucu(a)videotron.ca
To: ros-dev(a)reactos.org
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 14:00:08 -0700
Subject: Re: [ros-dev] FullFAT replacement for Fastfat.sys

I'm still at a loss as to why you are all ignoring the free, open source, FastFAT
driver in the Microsoft WDK.
On 29-Jul-09, at 10:56 AM, Gabriel ilardi wrote:Hi James,

Welcome to the team!
ReactOS kernel aims to be compatible with W2k3's, meanwhile Win32 subsystem aims atm
Vista.
You'll come across missing stuff, just search for UNIMPLEMENTED throughout the code.
Encoded started a page with missing functionality
here:http://www.reactos.org/wiki/Missing_ReactOS_Functionality 
Hope you have fun with ReactOS as much as we do...

Gabriel ilardi.

>   Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 13:59:42 +0200
>  From: james(a)worm.me.uk
>  To: ros-dev(a)reactos.org
>  Subject: [ros-dev] FullFAT replacement for Fastfat.sys
>  
>  Hi Everyone,
>  
>  I just thought I'd introduce myself. I am the author of a new FAT
>  implementation that was really designed for embedded systems. As such
>  it provides very good performance. (See www.fullfat-fs.co.uk).
>  
>  Fireball contacted me a few days ago to discuss the current
>  development of FullFAT, and since I have agreed to implement an IFS
>  driver based on FullFAT with a view to replacing the current
>  fastfat.sys implementation. During the conversation we also discussed
>  implementing a special journaling extension to FullFAT via the windows
>  driver.
>  
>  I hope to start work on this project in the next few weeks, and
>  further to this I would also like to help in some other areas of
>  ReactOS. I shall be taking a closer look at the ReactOS code over the
>  coming weeks, and will probably post some questions about various
>  aspects. I have just bought the Windows Internals, fifth edition
>  co-authored by Alex Ionescu, hopefully this will provide me with a
>  good overview of the Windows architecture etc.
>  
>  For complete Windows XP compatibility, just how much of the
>  implementation is currently missing from ReactOS?
>  
>  Nice to meet you all, and I hope to provide some good contributions to
>  ReactOS in the near future.
>  
>  James
>  
>  --
>  James Walmsley
>  ----------------------------------------
>  james(a)worm.me.uk
>  
>  _______________________________________________
>  Ros-dev mailing list
>  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
>  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev 
Solo con Messenger, nuovi gadget gratuiti per te. Vieni a scoprirli!
_______________________________________________
Ros-dev mailing list
Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev

 Best regards,Alex Ionescu 

_________________________________________________________________
Découvrez toutes les possibilités de communication avec vos proches
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/default.aspx

[Aleksey Bragin]

I'll explain the FAT journalling part, it's the idea I had for quite  
a while, and mainly it's just an experimental, fun idea.
So far FAT provides no consistency of neither metadata nor actual  
data. In order to maintain consistency, the filesystem's integrity  
has to be verified and fixed at every boot if not clean shutdown is  
detected.

Now, if we add a special file, let's say our driver knows its  
placement for sure, and that file doesn't change size and is not  
movable, we can implement transactional writing of metadata to the  
FAT directory entries using this file as a journal.
Advantages:
- Compatibility with original FAT drivers (without journalling of  
course)
- Metadata is always consistent (no need for a checkdisk).
Disadvantages:
- Please name them.

I suppose that's how ext3 was done from ext2. Why making the same  
from FAT would be a bad idea?

WBR,
Aleksey Bragin.

On Jul 30, 2009, at 1:52 AM, Pierre SCHWEITZER wrote:

>   Hi,
>
>  "I'm still at a loss as to why you are all ignoring the free, open  
>  source, FastFAT driver in the Microsoft WDK.". Wasn't it some kind  
>  a license problem? EULA, or something like that? The question rose  
>  when ARM ninjas imported CDFS driver from the Microsoft WDK. They  
>  finally had to remove it. Anyway, that's not exactly the point.
>
>  Regarding your initial question, for FSD an important part is  
>  missing in ReactOS: FsRTL package. Moreover, you may (or, you  
>  will?) have problems using CC package. But, that's a good point in  
>  fact. That way, we'll be able to implement/debug the needed  
>  functions, with test case.
>
>  Finally, I'd like to come back on that idea: "During the  
>  conversation we also discussed implementing a special journaling  
>  extension to FullFAT via the windows driver.". I've to admit I  
>  don't see how it can be a good idea. IF everything goes well,  
>  ReactOS will be able to handle two journalised FS: NTFS and ext3.  
>  Those are known, and used FS. Why should we create a "super" FAT  
>  instead of using those FS? What about compatibilty?
>  A better idea would to handle exFAT...
>
>  Best regards,
>  P. Schweitzer
>
>  From: ionucu(a)videotron.ca
>  To: ros-dev(a)reactos.org
>  Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 14:00:08 -0700
>  Subject: Re: [ros-dev] FullFAT replacement for Fastfat.sys
>
>  I'm still at a loss as to why you are all ignoring the free, open  
>  source, FastFAT driver in the Microsoft WDK.
>
>  On 29-Jul-09, at 10:56 AM, Gabriel ilardi wrote:
>
>  Hi James,
>
>  Welcome to the team!
>  ReactOS kernel aims to be compatible with W2k3's, meanwhile Win32  
>  subsystem aims atm Vista.
>  You'll come across missing stuff, just search for UNIMPLEMENTED  
>  throughout the code. Encoded started a page with missing  
>  functionality here:http://www.reactos.org/wiki/ 
>  Missing_ReactOS_Functionality
>  Hope you have fun with ReactOS as much as we do...
>
>  Gabriel ilardi.
>
> >   Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 13:59:42 +0200
> >  From: james(a)worm.me.uk
> >  To: ros-dev(a)reactos.org
> >  Subject: [ros-dev] FullFAT replacement for Fastfat.sys
> >
> >  Hi Everyone,
> >
> >  I just thought I'd introduce myself. I am the author of a new FAT
> >  implementation that was really designed for embedded systems. As   
>  such
> >   it provides very good performance. (See
> > www.fullfat-fs.co.uk).
> >
> >  Fireball contacted me a few days ago to discuss the current
> >  development of FullFAT, and since I have agreed to implement an IFS
> >  driver based on FullFAT with a view to replacing the current
> >  fastfat.sys implementation. During the conversation we also   
>  discussed
> >   implementing a special journaling extension to
> > FullFAT via the   
>  windows
> >   driver.
> >
> >  I hope to start work on this project in the next few weeks, and
> >  further to this I would also like to help in some other areas of
> >  ReactOS. I shall be taking a closer look at the ReactOS code over   
>  the
> >   coming weeks, and will probably post some
> > questions about various
> >  aspects. I have just bought the Windows Internals, fifth edition
> >  co-authored by Alex Ionescu, hopefully this will provide me with a
> >  good overview of the Windows architecture etc.
> >
> >  For complete Windows XP compatibility, just how much of the
> >  implementation is currently missing from ReactOS?
> >
> >  Nice to meet you all, and I hope to provide some good   
>  contributions to
> >   ReactOS in the near future.
> >
> >  James
> >
> >  --
> >  James Walmsley
> >  ----------------------------------------
> >  james(a)worm.me.uk
> >
> >  _______________________________________________
> >  Ros-dev mailing list
> >  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
> >  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev 
>  Solo con Messenger, nuovi gadget gratuiti per te. Vieni a  
>  scoprirli! _______________________________________________
>  Ros-dev mailing list
>  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
>  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>
>  Best regards,
>  Alex Ionescu
>
>

[Daniel Reimer]

Aleksey Bragin wrote:
>   I'll explain the FAT journalling part, it's
> the idea I had for quite a 
>  while, and mainly it's just an experimental, fun idea.
>  So far FAT provides no consistency of neither metadata nor actual 
>  data. In order to maintain consistency, the filesystem's integrity has 
>  to be verified and fixed at every boot if not clean shutdown is detected.
>
>  Now, if we add a special file, let's say our driver knows its 
>  placement for sure, and that file doesn't change size and is not 
>  movable, we can implement transactional writing of metadata to the FAT 
>  directory entries using this file as a journal.
>  Advantages:
>  - Compatibility with original FAT drivers (without journalling of course)
>  - Metadata is always consistent (no need for a checkdisk).
>  Disadvantages:
>  - Please name them.
>
>  I suppose that's how ext3 was done from ext2. Why making the same from 
>  FAT would be a bad idea?
>
>  WBR,
>  Aleksey Bragin.
>
>  On Jul 30, 2009, at 1:52 AM, Pierre SCHWEITZER wrote:
>
> >   Hi,
> >
> >  "I'm still at a loss as to why you are all ignoring the free, open 
> >  source, FastFAT driver in the Microsoft WDK.". Wasn't it some kind a 
> >  license problem? EULA, or something like that? The question rose when 
> >  ARM ninjas imported CDFS driver from the Microsoft WDK. They finally 
> >  had to remove it. Anyway, that's not exactly the point.
> >
> >  Regarding your initial question, for FSD an important part is missing 
> >  in ReactOS: FsRTL package. Moreover, you may (or, you will?) have 
> >  problems using CC package. But, that's a good point in fact. That 
> >  way, we'll be able to implement/debug the needed functions, with test 
> >  case.
> >
> >  Finally, I'd like to come back on that idea: "During the conversation 
> >  we also discussed implementing a special journaling extension to 
> >  FullFAT via the windows driver.". I've to admit I don't see how it 
> >  can be a good idea. IF everything goes well, ReactOS will be able to 
> >  handle two journalised FS: NTFS and ext3. Those are known, and used 
> >  FS. Why should we create a "super" FAT instead of using those FS? 
> >  What about compatibilty?
> >  A better idea would to handle exFAT...
> >
> >  Best regards,
> >  P. Schweitzer
> >
> >  ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >  From: ionucu(a)videotron.ca <mailto:[e-mail]>
> >  To: ros-dev(a)reactos.org <mailto:[e-mail]>
> >  Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 14:00:08 -0700
> >  Subject: Re: [ros-dev] FullFAT replacement for Fastfat.sys
> >
> >  I'm still at a loss as to why you are all ignoring the free, open 
> >  source, FastFAT driver in the Microsoft WDK.
> >
> >  On 29-Jul-09, at 10:56 AM, Gabriel ilardi wrote:
> >
> >      Hi James,
> >
> >      Welcome to the team!
> >      ReactOS kernel aims to be compatible with W2k3's, meanwhile Win32
> >      subsystem aims atm Vista.
> >      You'll come across missing stuff, just search for UNIMPLEMENTED
> >      throughout the code. Encoded started a page with missing
> >      functionality
> >      here:http://www.reactos.org/wiki/Missing_ReactOS_Functionality
> >      Hope you have fun with ReactOS as much as we do...
> >
> >      Gabriel ilardi.
> >
> > >   Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 13:59:42 +0200
> > >  From: james(a)worm.me.uk <mailto:[e-mail]>
> > >  To: ros-dev(a)reactos.org <mailto:[e-mail]>
> > >  Subject: [ros-dev] FullFAT replacement for Fastfat.sys
> > >
> > >  Hi Everyone,
> > >
> > >  I just thought I'd introduce myself. I am the author of a new FAT
> > >  implementation that was really designed for embedded systems. As 
> >      such
> > >   it provides very good performance. (See
> > > www.fullfat-fs.co.uk 
> >      <http://www.fullfat-fs.co.uk>).
> > >  
> > >  Fireball contacted me a few days ago to discuss the current
> > >  development of FullFAT, and since I have agreed to implement an IFS
> > >  driver based on FullFAT with a view to replacing the current
> > >  fastfat.sys implementation. During the conversation we also 
> >      discussed
> > >   implementing a special journaling extension to
> > > FullFAT via the 
> >      windows
> > >   driver.
> > >
> > >  I hope to start work on this project in the next few weeks, and
> > >  further to this I would also like to help in some other areas of
> > >  ReactOS. I shall be taking a closer look at the ReactOS code 
> >      over the
> > >   coming weeks, and will probably post some
> > > questions about various
> > >  aspects. I have just bought the Windows Internals, fifth edition
> > >  co-authored by Alex Ionescu, hopefully this will provide me with a
> > >  good overview of the Windows architecture etc.
> > >
> > >  For complete Windows XP compatibility, just how much of the
> > >  implementation is currently missing from ReactOS?
> > >
> > >  Nice to meet you all, and I hope to provide some good 
> >      contributions to
> > >   ReactOS in the near future.
> > >
> > >  James
> > >
> > >  --
> > >  James Walmsley
> > >  ----------------------------------------
> > >  james(a)worm.me.uk <mailto:[e-mail]>
> > >
> > >  _______________________________________________
> > >  Ros-dev mailing list
> > >  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org <mailto:[e-mail]>
> > >  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev 
> >      ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >      Solo con Messenger, nuovi gadget gratuiti per te. Vieni a
> >      scoprirli! <http://messenger.it/home_gadget.aspx>
> >      _______________________________________________
> >      Ros-dev mailing list
> >      Ros-dev(a)reactos.org <mailto:[e-mail]>
> >      http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> >
> >
> >  Best regards,
> >  Alex Ionescu
> >
> >  
>  ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  Ros-dev mailing list
>  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
>  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev 
I like the Idea. Journalling is
something I always missed on FAT.

[ShadowFlare]

What happens if another OS makes changes, not knowing about the journal?
 Does the journal need to be rebuilt (either partially or fully)?  FAT
support would mainly be for compatibility with another OS, so it is pretty
much certain that another OS would be writing files onto the file system.
Also, are there really any compelling reasons to add a ReactOS-only feature
to a file system that later will be supported mainly only for compatibility?

-ShadowFlare

On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 2:36 AM, Aleksey Bragin <aleksey(a)reactos.org> wrote:

>   I'll explain the FAT journalling part, it's
> the idea I had for quite a
>  while, and mainly it's just an experimental, fun idea.So far FAT provides
>  no consistency of neither metadata nor actual data. In order to maintain
>  consistency, the filesystem's integrity has to be verified and fixed at
>  every boot if not clean shutdown is detected.
>
>  Now, if we add a special file, let's say our driver knows its placement for
>  sure, and that file doesn't change size and is not movable, we can implement
>  transactional writing of metadata to the FAT directory entries using this
>  file as a journal.
>  Advantages:
>  - Compatibility with original FAT drivers (without journalling of course)
>  - Metadata is always consistent (no need for a checkdisk).
>  Disadvantages:
>  - Please name them.
>
>  I suppose that's how ext3 was done from ext2. Why making the same from FAT
>  would be a bad idea?
>
>  WBR,
>  Aleksey Bragin.
>
>  On Jul 30, 2009, at 1:52 AM, Pierre SCHWEITZER wrote:
>
>  Hi,
>
>  "I'm still at a loss as to why you are all ignoring the free, open source,
>  FastFAT driver in the Microsoft WDK.". Wasn't it some kind a license
>  problem? EULA, or something like that? The question rose when ARM ninjas
>  imported CDFS driver from the Microsoft WDK. They finally had to remove it.
>  Anyway, that's not exactly the point.
>
>  Regarding your initial question, for FSD an important part is missing in
>  ReactOS: FsRTL package. Moreover, you may (or, you will?) have problems
>  using CC package. But, that's a good point in fact. That way, we'll be able
>  to implement/debug the needed functions, with test case.
>
>  Finally, I'd like to come back on that idea: "During the conversation we
>  also discussed implementing a special journaling extension to FullFAT via
>  the windows driver.". I've to admit I don't see how it can be a good idea.
>  IF everything goes well, ReactOS will be able to handle two journalised FS:
>  NTFS and ext3. Those are known, and used FS. Why should we create a "super"
>  FAT instead of using those FS? What about compatibilty?
>  A better idea would to handle exFAT...
>
>  Best regards,
>  P. Schweitzer
>
>  ------------------------------
>  From: ionucu(a)videotron.ca
>  To: ros-dev(a)reactos.org
>  Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 14:00:08 -0700
>  Subject: Re: [ros-dev] FullFAT replacement for Fastfat.sys
>
>  I'm still at a loss as to why you are all ignoring the free, open source,
>  FastFAT driver in the Microsoft WDK.
>  On 29-Jul-09, at 10:56 AM, Gabriel ilardi wrote:
>
>  Hi James,
>
>  Welcome to the team!
>  ReactOS kernel aims to be compatible with W2k3's, meanwhile Win32 subsystem
>  aims atm Vista.
>  You'll come across missing stuff, just search for UNIMPLEMENTED throughout
>  the code. Encoded started a page with missing functionality here:
>  http://www.reactos.org/wiki/Missing_ReactOS_Functionality
>  Hope you have fun with ReactOS as much as we do...
>
>  Gabriel ilardi.
>
> >   Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 13:59:42 +0200
> >  From: james(a)worm.me.uk
> >  To: ros-dev(a)reactos.org
> >  Subject: [ros-dev] FullFAT replacement for Fastfat.sys
> >
> >  Hi Everyone,
> >
> >  I just thought I'd introduce myself. I am the author of a new FAT
> >  implementation that was really designed for embedded systems. As such
> >  it provides very good performance. (See www.fullfat-fs.co.uk).
> >
> >  Fireball contacted me a few days ago to discuss the current
> >  development of FullFAT, and since I have agreed to implement an IFS
> >  driver based on FullFAT with a view to replacing the current
> >  fastfat.sys implementation. During the conversation we also discussed
> >  implementing a special journaling extension to FullFAT via the windows
> >  driver.
> >
> >  I hope to start work on this project in the next few weeks, and
> >  further to this I would also like to help in some other areas of
> >  ReactOS. I shall be taking a closer look at the ReactOS code over the
> >  coming weeks, and will probably post some questions about various
> >  aspects. I have just bought the Windows Internals, fifth edition
> >  co-authored by Alex Ionescu, hopefully this will provide me with a
> >  good overview of the Windows architecture etc.
> >
> >  For complete Windows XP compatibility, just how much of the
> >  implementation is currently missing from ReactOS?
> >
> >  Nice to meet you all, and I hope to provide some good contributions to
> >  ReactOS in the near future.
> >
> >  James
> >
> >  --
> >  James Walmsley
> >  ----------------------------------------
> >  james(a)worm.me.uk
> >
> >  _______________________________________________
> >  Ros-dev mailing list
> >  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
> >  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev 
>  ------------------------------
>  Solo con Messenger, nuovi gadget gratuiti per te. Vieni a
> scoprirli!<http://messenger.it/home_gadget.aspx>
>   _______________________________________________
>  Ros-dev mailing list
>  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
>  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>
>
>  Best regards,
>  Alex Ionescu
>
>
>
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  Ros-dev mailing list
>  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
>  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>

[Ged]

Who says it will only be included for compatibility?

I don't see an open source NTFS being developed any time soon, if at all,
and I'm not overly keen on all these unix file systems.

 

For the foreseeable future FAT is by far the best option for us. If we can
add journaling then all the better.

If we could also add optional ACL support without breaking compatibility
when we'd have a pretty good file system to move forward with.

 

Ged.

 

 

From: ShadowFlare [mailto:[e-mail]] 
Sent: 30 July 2009 11:06
To: ReactOS Development List
Subject: Re: [ros-dev] FullFAT replacement for Fastfat.sys

 

What happens if another OS makes changes, not knowing about the journal?
Does the journal need to be rebuilt (either partially or fully)?  FAT
support would mainly be for compatibility with another OS, so it is pretty
much certain that another OS would be writing files onto the file system.

 

Also, are there really any compelling reasons to add a ReactOS-only feature
to a file system that later will be supported mainly only for compatibility?

 

-ShadowFlare

On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 2:36 AM, Aleksey Bragin <aleksey(a)reactos.org> wrote:

I'll explain the FAT journalling part, it's the idea I had for quite a
while, and mainly it's just an experimental, fun idea.

So far FAT provides no consistency of neither metadata nor actual data. In
order to maintain consistency, the filesystem's integrity has to be verified
and fixed at every boot if not clean shutdown is detected.

 

Now, if we add a special file, let's say our driver knows its placement for
sure, and that file doesn't change size and is not movable, we can implement
transactional writing of metadata to the FAT directory entries using this
file as a journal.

Advantages:

- Compatibility with original FAT drivers (without journalling of course)

- Metadata is always consistent (no need for a checkdisk).

Disadvantages:

- Please name them.

 

I suppose that's how ext3 was done from ext2. Why making the same from FAT
would be a bad idea?

 

WBR,

Aleksey Bragin.

 

On Jul 30, 2009, at 1:52 AM, Pierre SCHWEITZER wrote:





Hi,

"I'm still at a loss as to why you are all ignoring the free, open source,
FastFAT driver in the Microsoft WDK.". Wasn't it some kind a license
problem? EULA, or something like that? The question rose when ARM ninjas
imported CDFS driver from the Microsoft WDK. They finally had to remove it.
Anyway, that's not exactly the point.

Regarding your initial question, for FSD an important part is missing in
ReactOS: FsRTL package. Moreover, you may (or, you will?) have problems
using CC package. But, that's a good point in fact. That way, we'll be able
to implement/debug the needed functions, with test case.

Finally, I'd like to come back on that idea: "During the conversation we
also discussed implementing a special journaling extension to FullFAT via
the windows driver.". I've to admit I don't see how it can be a good idea.
IF everything goes well, ReactOS will be able to handle two journalised FS:
NTFS and ext3. Those are known, and used FS. Why should we create a "super"
FAT instead of using those FS? What about compatibilty?
A better idea would to handle exFAT...

Best regards,
P. Schweitzer

  _____  

From: ionucu(a)videotron.ca
To: ros-dev(a)reactos.org
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 14:00:08 -0700
Subject: Re: [ros-dev] FullFAT replacement for Fastfat.sys

I'm still at a loss as to why you are all ignoring the free, open source,
FastFAT driver in the Microsoft WDK.

 

On 29-Jul-09, at 10:56 AM, Gabriel ilardi wrote:

 

Hi James,

Welcome to the team!
ReactOS kernel aims to be compatible with W2k3's, meanwhile Win32 subsystem
aims atm Vista.
You'll come across missing stuff, just search for UNIMPLEMENTED throughout
the code. Encoded started a page with missing functionality
here:http://www.reactos.org/wiki/Missing_ReactOS_Functionality 
Hope you have fun with ReactOS as much as we do...

Gabriel ilardi.

>   Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 13:59:42 +0200
>  From: james(a)worm.me.uk
>  To: ros-dev(a)reactos.org
>  Subject: [ros-dev] FullFAT replacement for Fastfat.sys
>  
>  Hi Everyone,
>  
>  I just thought I'd introduce myself. I am the author of a new FAT
>  implementation that was really designed for embedded systems. As such
>  it provides very good performance. (See www.fullfat-fs.co.uk).
>  
>  Fireball contacted me a few days ago to discuss the current
>  development of FullFAT, and since I have agreed to implement an IFS
>  driver based on FullFAT with a view to replacing the current
>  fastfat.sys implementation. During the conversation we also discussed
>  implementing a special journaling extension to FullFAT via the windows
>  driver.
>  
>  I hope to start work on this project in the next few weeks, and
>  further to this I would also like to help in some other areas of
>  ReactOS. I shall be taking a closer look at the ReactOS code over the
>  coming weeks, and will probably post some questions about various
>  aspects. I have just bought the Windows Internals, fifth edition
>  co-authored by Alex Ionescu, hopefully this will provide me with a
>  good overview of the Windows architecture etc.
>  
>  For complete Windows XP compatibility, just how much of the
>  implementation is currently missing from ReactOS?
>  
>  Nice to meet you all, and I hope to provide some good contributions to
>  ReactOS in the near future.
>  
>  James
>  
>  --
>  James Walmsley
>  ----------------------------------------
>  james(a)worm.me.uk
>  
>  _______________________________________________
>  Ros-dev mailing list
>  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
>  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev 

  _____  


Solo con Messenger, nuovi gadget gratuiti per te. Vieni a scoprirli!
<http://messenger.it/home_gadget.aspx>
_______________________________________________
Ros-dev mailing list
Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev

 

Best regards,

Alex Ionescu

 

 

 


_______________________________________________
Ros-dev mailing list
Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev

[Timo Kreuzer]

What about long file names? Can't we use something like that to work
around the patent?

Ged wrote:
>   Who says it will only be included for compatibility?
>
>  I don't see an open source NTFS being developed any time soon, if at all,
>  and I'm not overly keen on all these unix file systems.
>
>   
>
>  For the foreseeable future FAT is by far the best option for us. If we can
>  add journaling then all the better.
>
>  If we could also add optional ACL support without breaking compatibility
>  when we'd have a pretty good file system to move forward with.
>
>   
>
>  Ged.
>
>   
>
>   
>
>  From: ShadowFlare [mailto:[e-mail]] 
>  Sent: 30 July 2009 11:06
>  To: ReactOS Development List
>  Subject: Re: [ros-dev] FullFAT replacement for Fastfat.sys
>
>   
>
>  What happens if another OS makes changes, not knowing about the journal?
>  Does the journal need to be rebuilt (either partially or fully)?  FAT
>  support would mainly be for compatibility with another OS, so it is pretty
>  much certain that another OS would be writing files onto the file system.
>
>   
>
>  Also, are there really any compelling reasons to add a ReactOS-only feature
>  to a file system that later will be supported mainly only for compatibility?
>
>   
>
>  -ShadowFlare
>
>  On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 2:36 AM, Aleksey Bragin <aleksey(a)reactos.org> wrote:
>
>  I'll explain the FAT journalling part, it's the idea I had for quite a
>  while, and mainly it's just an experimental, fun idea.
>
>  So far FAT provides no consistency of neither metadata nor actual data. In
>  order to maintain consistency, the filesystem's integrity has to be verified
>  and fixed at every boot if not clean shutdown is detected.
>
>   
>
>  Now, if we add a special file, let's say our driver knows its placement for
>  sure, and that file doesn't change size and is not movable, we can implement
>  transactional writing of metadata to the FAT directory entries using this
>  file as a journal.
>
>  Advantages:
>
>  - Compatibility with original FAT drivers (without journalling of course)
>
>  - Metadata is always consistent (no need for a checkdisk).
>
>  Disadvantages:
>
>  - Please name them.
>
>   
>
>  I suppose that's how ext3 was done from ext2. Why making the same from FAT
>  would be a bad idea?
>
>   
>
>  WBR,
>
>  Aleksey Bragin.
>
>   
>
>  On Jul 30, 2009, at 1:52 AM, Pierre SCHWEITZER wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>  Hi,
>
>  "I'm still at a loss as to why you are all ignoring the free, open source,
>  FastFAT driver in the Microsoft WDK.". Wasn't it some kind a license
>  problem? EULA, or something like that? The question rose when ARM ninjas
>  imported CDFS driver from the Microsoft WDK. They finally had to remove it.
>  Anyway, that's not exactly the point.
>
>  Regarding your initial question, for FSD an important part is missing in
>  ReactOS: FsRTL package. Moreover, you may (or, you will?) have problems
>  using CC package. But, that's a good point in fact. That way, we'll be able
>  to implement/debug the needed functions, with test case.
>
>  Finally, I'd like to come back on that idea: "During the conversation we
>  also discussed implementing a special journaling extension to FullFAT via
>  the windows driver.". I've to admit I don't see how it can be a good idea.
>  IF everything goes well, ReactOS will be able to handle two journalised FS:
>  NTFS and ext3. Those are known, and used FS. Why should we create a "super"
>  FAT instead of using those FS? What about compatibilty?
>  A better idea would to handle exFAT...
>
>  Best regards,
>  P. Schweitzer
>
>    _____  
>
>  From: ionucu(a)videotron.ca
>  To: ros-dev(a)reactos.org
>  Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 14:00:08 -0700
>  Subject: Re: [ros-dev] FullFAT replacement for Fastfat.sys
>
>  I'm still at a loss as to why you are all ignoring the free, open source,
>  FastFAT driver in the Microsoft WDK.
>
>   
>
>  On 29-Jul-09, at 10:56 AM, Gabriel ilardi wrote:
>
>   
>
>  Hi James,
>
>  Welcome to the team!
>  ReactOS kernel aims to be compatible with W2k3's, meanwhile Win32 subsystem
>  aims atm Vista.
>  You'll come across missing stuff, just search for UNIMPLEMENTED throughout
>  the code. Encoded started a page with missing functionality
>  here:http://www.reactos.org/wiki/Missing_ReactOS_Functionality 
>  Hope you have fun with ReactOS as much as we do...
>
>  Gabriel ilardi.
>
>    
> >   Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 13:59:42 +0200
> >  From: james(a)worm.me.uk
> >  To: ros-dev(a)reactos.org
> >  Subject: [ros-dev] FullFAT replacement for Fastfat.sys
> >
> >  Hi Everyone,
> >
> >  I just thought I'd introduce myself. I am the author of a new FAT
> >  implementation that was really designed for embedded systems. As such
> >  it provides very good performance. (See www.fullfat-fs.co.uk).
> >
> >  Fireball contacted me a few days ago to discuss the current
> >  development of FullFAT, and since I have agreed to implement an IFS
> >  driver based on FullFAT with a view to replacing the current
> >  fastfat.sys implementation. During the conversation we also discussed
> >  implementing a special journaling extension to FullFAT via the windows
> >  driver.
> >
> >  I hope to start work on this project in the next few weeks, and
> >  further to this I would also like to help in some other areas of
> >  ReactOS. I shall be taking a closer look at the ReactOS code over the
> >  coming weeks, and will probably post some questions about various
> >  aspects. I have just bought the Windows Internals, fifth edition
> >  co-authored by Alex Ionescu, hopefully this will provide me with a
> >  good overview of the Windows architecture etc.
> >
> >  For complete Windows XP compatibility, just how much of the
> >  implementation is currently missing from ReactOS?
> >
> >  Nice to meet you all, and I hope to provide some good contributions to
> >  ReactOS in the near future.
> >
> >  James
> >
> >  --
> >  James Walmsley
> >  ----------------------------------------
> >  james(a)worm.me.uk
> >
> >  _______________________________________________
> >  Ros-dev mailing list
> >  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
> >  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> >       
>
>    _____  
>
>
>  Solo con Messenger, nuovi gadget gratuiti per te. Vieni a scoprirli!
>  <http://messenger.it/home_gadget.aspx>
>  _______________________________________________
>  Ros-dev mailing list
>  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
>  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>
>   
>
>  Best regards,
>
>  Alex Ionescu
>
>   
>
>   
>
>   
>
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  Ros-dev mailing list
>  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
>  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>
>   
>
>
>    
>  ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  Ros-dev mailing list
>  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
>  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev

[Steven Edwards]

2009/7/30 Timo Kreuzer <timo.kreuzer(a)web.de>de>:
>   What about long file names? Can't we use something
> like that to work around
>  the patent? 
Speaking of the LongFile Name patent and Journaling, there was if I
recall, a Linux kernel hacker a while back that addressed both with an
interesting patch. If I recall correctly, rather than storing a LFN
and a SFN it would only store one or the other and then use the other
record as some sort of a checksum on the file in question to achieve a
similar effect as a journal record. Maybe its more analogous to UFS
soft updates but I think you might get the idea. I'm not all that up
on filesystem semantics but I think a bit of googling might turn up
what I am talking about.

-- 
Steven Edwards

"There is one thing stronger than all the armies in the world, and
that is an idea whose time has come." - Victor Hugo

[James Walmsley]

>   2009/7/30 Timo Kreuzer <timo.kreuzer(a)web.de>de>:
> >   What about long file names? Can't we use
> > something like that to work around
> >  the patent? 
>  Speaking of the LongFile Name patent and Journaling, there was if I
>  recall, a Linux kernel hacker a while back that addressed both with an
>  interesting patch. If I recall correctly, rather than storing a LFN
>  and a SFN it would only store one or the other and then use the other
>  record as some sort of a checksum on the file in question to achieve a
>  similar effect as a journal record. Maybe its more analogous to UFS
>  soft updates but I think you might get the idea. I'm not all that up
>  on filesystem semantics but I think a bit of googling might turn up
>  what I am talking about. 
Actually thats just being developed into FullFAT already in
preparation for the 1.0.0 release. I believe I already mentioned it,
but here's a link the the linux kernel mailing list that explains how
the patch works and why its legally valid.

http://lkml.org/lkml/2009/6/26/314 -- A legal discussion about the patch.
http://lkml.org/lkml/2009/6/26/313 -- Technical details of what the patch does.

FAT stores a checksum in LFNs of the shortname, this can be used to
verify the integrity of LFN entries in a directory. Of course using
the linux patch, the short name can be used for other puposes. However
its not really journaling because you still have to scan all the
directories. This takes a long time.

Sarocet also makes a good point about the problem with a ReactOS
journaling file. The journal should store some kind of hash or
checksum value of the state of the FAT table (which is probably too
big). Or atleast the directories affected by the journal changes. If
this hash differs before journal transactions are committed to the FS
then the journal should clear that transaction and not commit it.

Really journaling should only be enabled for a ReactOS system
partition, using journaling on removable media wouldn't bring any
great benefit, because of the effect that Sarocet described.

Still I think the journaling is something we won't add until the
driver is working and stable.

James


-- 
James Walmsley
----------------------------------------
james(a)worm.me.uk

[Steven Edwards]

On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 10:53 AM, James Walmsley<james(a)worm.me.uk> wrote:
>   Actually thats just being developed into FullFAT
> already in
>  preparation for the 1.0.0 release. I believe I already mentioned it,
>  but here's a link the the linux kernel mailing list that explains how
>  the patch works and why its legally valid.
>
>  http://lkml.org/lkml/2009/6/26/314 -- A legal discussion about the patch.
>  http://lkml.org/lkml/2009/6/26/313 -- Technical details of what the patch does.
>
>  FAT stores a checksum in LFNs of the shortname, this can be used to
>  verify the integrity of LFN entries in a directory. Of course using
>  the linux patch, the short name can be used for other puposes. However
>  its not really journaling because you still have to scan all the
>  directories. This takes a long time. 
Right. The set of patches I am thinking of is actually older than
Tridge's recent patent avoidance work. But I think the concept was the
same. If there is a performance hit then it would not worth it.

>   Sarocet also makes a good point about the problem with
> a ReactOS
>  journaling file. The journal should store some kind of hash or
>  checksum value of the state of the FAT table (which is probably too
>  big). Or atleast the directories affected by the journal changes. If
>  this hash differs before journal transactions are committed to the FS
>  then the journal should clear that transaction and not commit it.
>
>  Really journaling should only be enabled for a ReactOS system
>  partition, using journaling on removable media wouldn't bring any
>  great benefit, because of the effect that Sarocet described.
>
>  Still I think the journaling is something we won't add until the
>  driver is working and stable. 
I agree. It would be nice to have but that is way down the road but
for now, it would just be nice to have a bullet proof fat32
implementation although I suspect a lot of our problems are deeper
than the driver itself. If I recall there has been quite a bit of work
in the past to get our vfat driver to function on Windows.

Thanks
-- 
Steven Edwards

"There is one thing stronger than all the armies in the world, and
that is an idea whose time has come." - Victor Hugo

[Steven Edwards]

On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 5:00 PM, Alex Ionescu<ionucu(a)videotron.ca> wrote:
>   I'm still at a loss as to why you are all ignoring
> the free, open source,
>  FastFAT driver in the Microsoft WDK. 
Speaking just for myself, its not clear to me what in the aggregate of
the WDK is actually 'free' and which is just there for reference
purposes. I mean it could be perfectly fine and dandy for us to use
it, but without the ablity to do proper due diligence, it does not
seem to be worth it. Given the history of the fat patent mess, this
should seem perfectly clear.

Until Microsoft has the desire to clearly lay out for us what is safe
to use in an open source project and what is not, I don't see why its
worth the risk.

-- 
Steven Edwards

"There is one thing stronger than all the armies in the world, and
that is an idea whose time has come." - Victor Hugo

[Alex Ionescu]

I didn't say you should copy/paste the driver.

But by all means, using it as a reference and writing an identically  
functioning driver is 100% legal.

Hence I don't get the point of having "Experts" in FAT come and write  
an independent driver, or use some other non-Windows driver as  
reference/source.

In fact, legally, I move that if ReactOS were to strip out 70% of the  
FastFAT code (totally likely, since the driver is legitimately bloated  
for things ReactOS doesn't even need to worry about yet), you could  
add the other 30% *as is*.

I believe this work was already started by one of Aleksey's russian  
guys, but seems to have been dropped...

On 29-Jul-09, at 4:47 PM, Steven Edwards wrote:

>   On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 5:00 PM, Alex
> Ionescu<ionucu(a)videotron.ca>  
>  wrote:
> >   I'm still at a loss as to why you are all
> > ignoring the free, open  
> >  source,
> >  FastFAT driver in the Microsoft WDK. 
>  Speaking just for myself, its not clear to me what in the aggregate of
>  the WDK is actually 'free' and which is just there for reference
>  purposes. I mean it could be perfectly fine and dandy for us to use
>  it, but without the ablity to do proper due diligence, it does not
>  seem to be worth it. Given the history of the fat patent mess, this
>  should seem perfectly clear.
>
>  Until Microsoft has the desire to clearly lay out for us what is safe
>  to use in an open source project and what is not, I don't see why its
>  worth the risk.
>
>  -- 
>  Steven Edwards
>
>  "There is one thing stronger than all the armies in the world, and
>  that is an idea whose time has come." - Victor Hugo
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  Ros-dev mailing list
>  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
>  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev 
Best regards,
Alex Ionescu

[Olaf Siejka]

Importing FullFat (even if it requires changes, like converting to kmode) is
still WAY faster than developing a new one, based on MS sample code. As we
know, FullFat already works, so the testing procedure would be significantly
shorter, compared with the one being written from scratch. Finally, FullFat
author agreed on colaborating, effectively helping out with the adaptation
process. For the new fat driver, we`d still require at least developer,
either someone from ReactOS team or outsider.
Again, i dont see developers hanging around, waiting to do anything for
ReactOS.

So its a choice of ready, funcitoning code and tested, that needs to be
adopted, as well as a new developer, eager to help us out. On the other
side, there is only a reference MS code, that potentially (even if we`ll be
able to actually write a new FAT driver and test it) someone could use as an
excuse to question the new driver and spread FUD about its similarity to MS
code.
We already have seen it... Advangates? I dont see any.

I think that the present need of working, fully featured and stable FAT
driver doesn't need any explanation


2009/7/30 Alex Ionescu <ionucu(a)videotron.ca>

>   I didn't say you should copy/paste the driver.
>
>  But by all means, using it as a reference and writing an identically
>   functioning driver is 100% legal.

[James Walmsley]

>   Importing FullFat (even if it requires changes, like
> converting to kmode) is
>  still WAY faster than developing a new one, based on MS sample code. As we
>  know, FullFat already works, so the testing procedure would be significantly
>  shorter, compared with the one being written from scratch. 
FullFAT has already been used by some major embedded projects, Renesas
have included it
with their own development environment for all their customers.

Similarly a major development framework for Analog Devices Blackfin
processors have also adopted
FullFAT as a standard part of their library.

FullFAT is well tested already, and I intend to write the driver in a
way that fixes to problems can easily
be synchronised between the Windows FullFAT driver and the standard
general purpose driver.

>   Finally, FullFat
>  author agreed on colaborating, effectively helping out with the adaptation
>  process. For the new fat driver, we`d still require at least developer,
>  either someone from ReactOS team or outsider.
>  Again, i dont see developers hanging around, waiting to do anything for
>  ReactOS. 
In the last year I have gained a substantial interest for Windows
internals, particularly
kernel mode stuff, and see working with ReactOS as a great opportunity
to work with
some really smart people, and further my own knowledge and ideas.

>   So its a choice of ready, funcitoning code and tested,
> that needs to be
>  adopted, as well as a new developer, eager to help us out. On the other
>  side, there is only a reference MS code, that potentially (even if we`ll be
>  able to actually write a new FAT driver and test it) someone could use as an
>  excuse to question the new driver and spread FUD about its similarity to MS
>  code. 
FullFAT will also implement a build-option that removes the FAT patent issues.
This is based on the linux patch, for details see:

http://lkml.org/lkml/2009/6/26/313

I think that FullFAT works quite well already, and is 100% my own code
from scratch.
When ReactOS use this code, then there can be no uncertainty about its
legitimacy.


Also addressing the questions regarding a journaling system, we can
simply have the driver
create a ROS.journal file in the root dir. This file won't mean
anything to other systems,
and will simply be ignored. Causing no compatibility issues. If
another system messes up the
FAT table or directory structures thats not the fault of ReactOS, and
would require a full chkdsk.

I think the journal stuff would be something we can add once I have
FullFAT fully integrated and its working.

Thanks for the input,

James

-- 
James Walmsley
----------------------------------------
james(a)worm.me.uk

[Sarocet]

James Walmsley wrote:
>   Also addressing the questions regarding a journaling
> system, we can
>  simply have the driver
>  create a ROS.journal file in the root dir. This file won't mean
>  anything to other systems,
>     
I'd prefer to see it named journal.fat
.journal extension would need a LFN. Since this would be a critical file
for the fs, we should
stick to 8.3 (it's more compatible, allow for more robust code and keeps
the gate open for also
journaling implementations without long filenames).
Journaled fat doesn't need to be reactos specific so a vendor neutral
name like journal.fat instead
of journal.ros look better.

>   and will simply be ignored. Causing no compatibility
> issues. If
>  another system messes up the
>  FAT table or directory structures thats not the fault of ReactOS, and
>  would require a full chkdsk.
>     
For example, the following correct behavior:
-ReactOS create a file, allocate and use several blocks and note that at
the journal before writing the directory entry.
-System hangs.
-ReactOS reboots, check the log and free those entries.


Can produce corruption if there's a implementation not aware of
journaling in the mix:
-ReactOS create a file, allocate and use several blocks and note that at
the journal before writing the directory entry.
-System hangs.
-User reboots in FooOS
-FooOS detect the partition incorrectly umounted, chkdsk it and frees
those blocks.
-FooOS create a new file, using those sectors. This file gets correctly
commited.
-System hangs again.
-User reboot on ReactOS, check the log and free those entries.

Here, by relying on the journal contents, ROS has just corrupted what
was a correct FS.

[Pierre Schweitzer]

OK, you answered one of my questions regarding journal.
But some are still pending:
- How to be sure log won't be deleted by user? What if he cleans root dir 
(in the same time, you'll have deletion of the log file and its 
modification)?
- In case you've a power failure, when you was under ReactOS and making some 
file operations, log should be then used. But, if you restart using Windows, 
and dealing with concerned files?
It looks a bit like Microsoft NTFS driver and ntfs-3g driver. But, with less 
securities. With ntfs-3g, in such cases, faulty, the driver don't mount the 
volume to avoid damaging data, corrupting the volume, etc. Here, as the 
Microsoft fastfat isn't designed to handle such cases, it could produce 
really bad effects.
Definitely, that mustn't be a priority and must be kept as an improvement 
when ReactOS will match Windows and will be stable.

Best regards,
P. Schweitzer

--------------------------------------------------
From: "James Walmsley" <james(a)worm.me.uk>
Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2009 1:11 PM
To: "ReactOS Development List" <ros-dev(a)reactos.org>
Subject: Re: [ros-dev] FullFAT replacement for Fastfat.sys

> >   Importing
> > FullFat (even if it requires changes, like converting to kmode) 
> >  is
> >  still WAY faster than developing a new one, based on MS sample code. As 
> >  we
> >  know, FullFat already works, so the testing procedure would be 
> >  significantly
> >  shorter, compared with the one being written from scratch. 
>  FullFAT has already been used by some major embedded projects, Renesas
>  have included it
>  with their own development environment for all their customers.
>
>  Similarly a major development framework for Analog Devices Blackfin
>  processors have also adopted
>  FullFAT as a standard part of their library.
>
>  FullFAT is well tested already, and I intend to write the driver in a
>  way that fixes to problems can easily
>  be synchronised between the Windows FullFAT driver and the standard
>  general purpose driver.
>
> >   Finally, FullFat
> >  author agreed on colaborating, effectively helping out with the 
> >  adaptation
> >  process. For the new fat driver, we`d still require at least developer,
> >  either someone from ReactOS team or outsider.
> >  Again, i dont see developers hanging around, waiting to do anything for
> >  ReactOS. 
>  In the last year I have gained a substantial interest for Windows
>  internals, particularly
>  kernel mode stuff, and see working with ReactOS as a great opportunity
>  to work with
>  some really smart people, and further my own knowledge and ideas.
>
> >   So its a choice of ready, funcitoning code and
> > tested, that needs to be
> >  adopted, as well as a new developer, eager to help us out. On the other
> >  side, there is only a reference MS code, that potentially (even if we`ll 
> >  be
> >  able to actually write a new FAT driver and test it) someone could use as 
> >  an
> >  excuse to question the new driver and spread FUD about its similarity to 
> >  MS
> >  code. 
>  FullFAT will also implement a build-option that removes the FAT patent 
>  issues.
>  This is based on the linux patch, for details see:
>
>  http://lkml.org/lkml/2009/6/26/313
>
>  I think that FullFAT works quite well already, and is 100% my own code
>  from scratch.
>  When ReactOS use this code, then there can be no uncertainty about its
>  legitimacy.
>
>
>  Also addressing the questions regarding a journaling system, we can
>  simply have the driver
>  create a ROS.journal file in the root dir. This file won't mean
>  anything to other systems,
>  and will simply be ignored. Causing no compatibility issues. If
>  another system messes up the
>  FAT table or directory structures thats not the fault of ReactOS, and
>  would require a full chkdsk.
>
>  I think the journal stuff would be something we can add once I have
>  FullFAT fully integrated and its working.
>
>  Thanks for the input,
>
>  James
>
>  -- 
>  James Walmsley
>  ----------------------------------------
>  james(a)worm.me.uk
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  Ros-dev mailing list
>  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
>  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev

[Javier Agustìn Fernàndez Arroyo]

"But, if you restart using Windows,
and dealing with concerned files?"
This is just the same as if you have installed Linux and Windows in the same
PC, and you delete the Linux kernel .img file when running Windows (using
http://www.fs-driver.org or whatever). You cant prevent it.

On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 5:47 PM, Pierre Schweitzer <
pierre.schweitzer(a)reactos.org&gt; wrote:

>   OK, you answered one of my questions regarding
> journal.
>  But some are still pending:
>  - How to be sure log won't be deleted by user? What if he cleans root dir
>  (in the same time, you'll have deletion of the log file and its
>  modification)?
>  - In case you've a power failure, when you was under ReactOS and making
>  some
>  file operations, log should be then used. But, if you restart using
>  Windows,
>  and dealing with concerned files?
>  It looks a bit like Microsoft NTFS driver and ntfs-3g driver. But, with
>  less
>  securities. With ntfs-3g, in such cases, faulty, the driver don't mount the
>  volume to avoid damaging data, corrupting the volume, etc. Here, as the
>  Microsoft fastfat isn't designed to handle such cases, it could produce
>  really bad effects.
>  Definitely, that mustn't be a priority and must be kept as an improvement
>  when ReactOS will match Windows and will be stable.
>
>  Best regards,
>  P. Schweitzer
>
>  --------------------------------------------------
>  From: "James Walmsley" &lt;james(a)worm.me.uk&gt;
>  Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2009 1:11 PM
>  To: "ReactOS Development List" &lt;ros-dev(a)reactos.org&gt;
>  Subject: Re: [ros-dev] FullFAT replacement for Fastfat.sys
>
> >  > Importing FullFat (even if it requires
> > changes, like converting to 
>  kmode)
> > >   is
> > >  still WAY faster than developing a new one, based on MS sample code. As
> > >  we
> > >  know, FullFat already works, so the testing procedure would be
> > >  significantly
> > >  shorter, compared with the one being written from scratch. 
> >  FullFAT has already been used by some major embedded projects, Renesas
> >  have included it
> >  with their own development environment for all their customers.
> >
> >  Similarly a major development framework for Analog Devices Blackfin
> >  processors have also adopted
> >  FullFAT as a standard part of their library.
> >
> >  FullFAT is well tested already, and I intend to write the driver in a
> >  way that fixes to problems can easily
> >  be synchronised between the Windows FullFAT driver and the standard
> >  general purpose driver.
> >
> > >   Finally, FullFat
> > >  author agreed on colaborating, effectively helping out with the
> > >  adaptation
> > >  process. For the new fat driver, we`d still require at least developer,
> > >  either someone from ReactOS team or outsider.
> > >  Again, i dont see developers hanging around, waiting to do anything for
> > >  ReactOS. 
> >  In the last year I have gained a substantial interest for Windows
> >  internals, particularly
> >  kernel mode stuff, and see working with ReactOS as a great opportunity
> >  to work with
> >  some really smart people, and further my own knowledge and ideas.
> >
> > > So its a choice of ready, funcitoning code and tested, that needs to be
> > > adopted, as well as a new developer, eager to help us out. On the other
> > > side, there is only a reference MS code, that potentially (even if we`ll
> > > be
> > > able to actually write a new FAT driver and test it) someone could use 
>  as
> > >   an
> > >  excuse to question the new driver and spread FUD about its similarity to
> > >  MS
> > >  code. 
> >  FullFAT will also implement a build-option that removes the FAT patent
> >  issues.
> >  This is based on the linux patch, for details see:
> >
> >  http://lkml.org/lkml/2009/6/26/313
> >
> >  I think that FullFAT works quite well already, and is 100% my own code
> >  from scratch.
> >  When ReactOS use this code, then there can be no uncertainty about its
> >  legitimacy.
> >
> >
> >  Also addressing the questions regarding a journaling system, we can
> >  simply have the driver
> >  create a ROS.journal file in the root dir. This file won't mean
> >  anything to other systems,
> >  and will simply be ignored. Causing no compatibility issues. If
> >  another system messes up the
> >  FAT table or directory structures thats not the fault of ReactOS, and
> >  would require a full chkdsk.
> >
> >  I think the journal stuff would be something we can add once I have
> >  FullFAT fully integrated and its working.
> >
> >  Thanks for the input,
> >
> >  James
> >
> >  --
> >  James Walmsley
> >  ----------------------------------------
> >  james(a)worm.me.uk
> >
> >  _______________________________________________
> >  Ros-dev mailing list
> >  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
> >  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev 
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  Ros-dev mailing list
>  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
>  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>

[Pierre Schweitzer]

That's a different case. Browsing your Linux partition from Windows isn't that
easy, you've to install stuff, etc. Here, we're dealing with something that is
supported by ALL OSes.
Moreover, your kernel image can be restored. But once you fucked up your files, FS, that
isn't so easy...

>   "But, if you restart using Windows,
>  and dealing with concerned files?"
>  This is just the same as if you have installed Linux and Windows in the same
>  PC, and you delete the Linux kernel .img file when running Windows (using
>  http://www.fs-driver.org or whatever). You cant prevent it.
>  
>  On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 5:47 PM, Pierre Schweitzer <
>  pierre.schweitzer(a)reactos.org&gt; wrote:
>  
> >   OK, you answered one of my questions regarding
> > journal.
> >  But some are still pending:
> >  - How to be sure log won't be deleted by user? What if he cleans root dir
> >  (in the same time, you'll have deletion of the log file and its
> >  modification)?
> >  - In case you've a power failure, when you was under ReactOS and making
> >  some
> >  file operations, log should be then used. But, if you restart using
> >  Windows,
> >  and dealing with concerned files?
> >  It looks a bit like Microsoft NTFS driver and ntfs-3g driver. But, with
> >  less
> >  securities. With ntfs-3g, in such cases, faulty, the driver don't mount the
> >  volume to avoid damaging data, corrupting the volume, etc. Here, as the
> >  Microsoft fastfat isn't designed to handle such cases, it could produce
> >  really bad effects.
> >  Definitely, that mustn't be a priority and must be kept as an improvement
> >  when ReactOS will match Windows and will be stable.
> >
> >  Best regards,
> >  P. Schweitzer
> >
> >  --------------------------------------------------
> >  From: "James Walmsley" &lt;james(a)worm.me.uk&gt;
> >  Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2009 1:11 PM
> >  To: "ReactOS Development List" &lt;ros-dev(a)reactos.org&gt;
> >  Subject: Re: [ros-dev] FullFAT replacement for Fastfat.sys
> >
> > >  > Importing FullFat (even if it requires
> > > changes, like converting to 
> >  kmode)
> > > >   is
> > > >  still WAY faster than developing a new one, based on MS sample code. As
> > > >  we
> > > >  know, FullFat already works, so the testing procedure would be
> > > >  significantly
> > > >  shorter, compared with the one being written from scratch. 
> > >  FullFAT has already been used by some major embedded projects, Renesas
> > >  have included it
> > >  with their own development environment for all their customers.
> > >
> > >  Similarly a major development framework for Analog Devices Blackfin
> > >  processors have also adopted
> > >  FullFAT as a standard part of their library.
> > >
> > >  FullFAT is well tested already, and I intend to write the driver in a
> > >  way that fixes to problems can easily
> > >  be synchronised between the Windows FullFAT driver and the standard
> > >  general purpose driver.
> > >
> > > >   Finally, FullFat
> > > >  author agreed on colaborating, effectively helping out with the
> > > >  adaptation
> > > >  process. For the new fat driver, we`d still require at least developer,
> > > >  either someone from ReactOS team or outsider.
> > > >  Again, i dont see developers hanging around, waiting to do anything for
> > > >  ReactOS. 
> > >  In the last year I have gained a substantial interest for Windows
> > >  internals, particularly
> > >  kernel mode stuff, and see working with ReactOS as a great opportunity
> > >  to work with
> > >  some really smart people, and further my own knowledge and ideas.
> > >
> > > > So its a choice of ready, funcitoning code and tested, that needs to be
> > > > adopted, as well as a new developer, eager to help us out. On the other
> > > > side, there is only a reference MS code, that potentially (even if we`ll
> > > > be
> > > > able to actually write a new FAT driver and test it) someone could use 
> >  as
> > > >   an
> > > >  excuse to question the new driver and spread FUD about its similarity to
> > > >  MS
> > > >  code. 
> > >  FullFAT will also implement a build-option that removes the FAT patent
> > >  issues.
> > >  This is based on the linux patch, for details see:
> > >
> > >  http://lkml.org/lkml/2009/6/26/313
> > >
> > >  I think that FullFAT works quite well already, and is 100% my own code
> > >  from scratch.
> > >  When ReactOS use this code, then there can be no uncertainty about its
> > >  legitimacy.
> > >
> > >
> > >  Also addressing the questions regarding a journaling system, we can
> > >  simply have the driver
> > >  create a ROS.journal file in the root dir. This file won't mean
> > >  anything to other systems,
> > >  and will simply be ignored. Causing no compatibility issues. If
> > >  another system messes up the
> > >  FAT table or directory structures thats not the fault of ReactOS, and
> > >  would require a full chkdsk.
> > >
> > >  I think the journal stuff would be something we can add once I have
> > >  FullFAT fully integrated and its working.
> > >
> > >  Thanks for the input,
> > >
> > >  James
> > >
> > >  --
> > >  James Walmsley
> > >  ----------------------------------------
> > >  james(a)worm.me.uk
> > >
> > >  _______________________________________________
> > >  Ros-dev mailing list
> > >  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
> > >  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev 
> >
> >  _______________________________________________
> >  Ros-dev mailing list
> >  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
> >  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> >  
>  _______________________________________________
>  Ros-dev mailing list
>  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
>  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev

[Ged]

I think you misunderestimate how much work is required to write a kernel
mode wrapper around this lib.

It would be much much quicker to use the MS sample code.

 

I do however prefer to go down the fullfat path than use MS code. I feel
uneasy about the legality of using MS code, even if it is supposedly
allowed.

 

Ged.

 

 

From: Olaf Siejka [mailto:[e-mail]] 
Sent: 30 July 2009 11:52
To: ReactOS Development List
Subject: Re: [ros-dev] FullFAT replacement for Fastfat.sys

 

Importing FullFat (even if it requires changes, like converting to kmode) is
still WAY faster than developing a new one, based on MS sample code.

[Zachary Gorden]

Well Aleksey is the one who seems to think that it won't take too long to
plug the library into the code he's already written.

On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 6:30 AM, Ged <gedmurphy(a)gmail.com> wrote:

>    I think you misunderestimate how much work is
> required to write a kernel
>  mode wrapper around this lib.
>
>  It would be much much quicker to use the MS sample code.
>
>
>
>  I do however prefer to go down the fullfat path than use MS code. I feel
>  uneasy about the legality of using MS code, even if it is supposedly
>  allowed.
>
>
>
>  Ged.
>
>
>
>
>
>  *From:* Olaf Siejka [mailto:[e-mail]]
>  *Sent:* 30 July 2009 11:52
>  *To:* ReactOS Development List
>  *Subject:* Re: [ros-dev] FullFAT replacement for Fastfat.sys
>
>
>
>  Importing FullFat (even if it requires changes, like converting to kmode)
>  is still WAY faster than developing a new one, based on MS sample code.
>
>
>
>
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  Ros-dev mailing list
>  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
>  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>

[Dmitry Gorbachev]

I think that the most important component of fullfat is James
Walmsley; Microsoft's fastfat drv misses this feature. :)

[Ged]

'already written' is the key here. There was no mention of that in the
original email.

 

Also, it's still not as easy a task as reworking the MS code, which is
effectively what was suggested.

It's going to require a good knowledge of NT FSD's to get everything
functioning correctly.

 

Ged.

 

From: Zachary Gorden [mailto:[e-mail]] 
Sent: 30 July 2009 14:43
To: ReactOS Development List
Subject: Re: [ros-dev] FullFAT replacement for Fastfat.sys

 

Well Aleksey is the one who seems to think that it won't take too long to
plug the library into the code he's already written.

On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 6:30 AM, Ged <gedmurphy(a)gmail.com> wrote:

I think you misunderestimate how much work is required to write a kernel
mode wrapper around this lib.

It would be much much quicker to use the MS sample code.

 

I do however prefer to go down the fullfat path than use MS code. I feel
uneasy about the legality of using MS code, even if it is supposedly
allowed.

 

Ged.

 

 

From: Olaf Siejka [mailto:[e-mail]] 
Sent: 30 July 2009 11:52
To: ReactOS Development List
Subject: Re: [ros-dev] FullFAT replacement for Fastfat.sys

 

Importing FullFat (even if it requires changes, like converting to kmode) is
still WAY faster than developing a new one, based on MS sample code. 

 

 


_______________________________________________
Ros-dev mailing list
Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev

[Aleksey Bragin]

The NT specific part would be file objects and related operations,  
IRP handling is partially done already. Actually I stopped at a level  
which already required initial volume mounting, and traversing the  
root directory iirc. So it might really be quite fast (development  
speed wise).

Of course, relying on a reference fastfat from WDK would be also fun  
and good, Alex is right that probably up to 70% of its source code  
aren't needed for us, and the other 30% would serve as a good  
reference. But if there is a way to avoid MS copyrighted code, and  
there is a great developer who offers his help - FullFAT would be a  
way to go.


WBR,
Aleksey Bragin.


On Jul 30, 2009, at 7:12 PM, Ged wrote:

>   ‘already written’ is the key here. There was no
> mention of that in  
>  the original email.
>
>
>
>  Also, it’s still not as easy a task as reworking the MS code, which  
>  is effectively what was suggested.
>
>  It’s going to require a good knowledge of NT FSD’s to get  
>  everything functioning correctly.
>
>
>
>  Ged.
>
>
>
>  From: Zachary Gorden [mailto:[e-mail]]
>  Sent: 30 July 2009 14:43
>  To: ReactOS Development List
>  Subject: Re: [ros-dev] FullFAT replacement for Fastfat.sys
>
>
>
>  Well Aleksey is the one who seems to think that it won't take too  
>  long to plug the library into the code he's already written.
>
>  On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 6:30 AM, Ged <gedmurphy(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
>  I think you misunderestimate how much work is required to write a  
>  kernel mode wrapper around this lib.
>
>  It would be much much quicker to use the MS sample code.
>
>
>
>  I do however prefer to go down the fullfat path than use MS code. I  
>  feel uneasy about the legality of using MS code, even if it is  
>  supposedly allowed.
>
>
>
>  Ged.
>
>
>
>
>
>  From: Olaf Siejka [mailto:[e-mail]]
>  Sent: 30 July 2009 11:52
>  To: ReactOS Development List
>  Subject: Re: [ros-dev] FullFAT replacement for Fastfat.sys
>
>
>
>  Importing FullFat (even if it requires changes, like converting to  
>  kmode) is still WAY faster than developing a new one, based on MS  
>  sample code.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  Ros-dev mailing list
>  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
>  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>
>
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  Ros-dev mailing list
>  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
>  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev

[Samuel serapion]

Fastfat driver works in windows xp... at least in some cases/conditions

On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 7:59 AM, James Walmsley <james(a)worm.me.uk> wrote:

>   Hi Everyone,
>
>  I just thought I'd introduce myself. I am the author of a new FAT
>  implementation that was really designed for embedded systems. As such
>  it provides very good performance. (See www.fullfat-fs.co.uk).
>
>  Fireball contacted me a few days ago to discuss the current
>  development of FullFAT, and since I have agreed to implement an IFS
>  driver based on FullFAT with a view to replacing the current
>  fastfat.sys implementation. During the conversation we also discussed
>  implementing a special journaling extension to FullFAT via the windows
>  driver.
>
>  I hope to start work on this project in the next few weeks, and
>  further to this I would also like to help in some other areas of
>  ReactOS. I shall be taking a closer look at the ReactOS code over the
>  coming weeks, and will probably post some questions about various
>  aspects. I have just bought the Windows Internals, fifth edition
>  co-authored by Alex Ionescu, hopefully this will provide me with a
>  good overview of the Windows architecture etc.
>
>  For complete Windows XP compatibility, just how much of the
>  implementation is currently missing from ReactOS?
>
>  Nice to meet you all, and I hope to provide some good contributions to
>  ReactOS in the near future.
>
>  James
>
>  --
>  James Walmsley
>  ----------------------------------------
>  james(a)worm.me.uk
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  Ros-dev mailing list
>  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
>  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>

[Zachary Gorden]

In the license file that comes with the WDK, section 2a I, second bullet
point.

You may modify, copy, and distribute the source and object code form of code
listed in the SAMPLES.TXT file.  You may modify, copy, and distribute only
the object code form of other sample code that is not listed in the
SAMPLES.TXT file.

The fastfat driver is not listed in the SAMPLES.TXT file, so that seems to
imply we cannot redistribute the source.  Unless you're suggesting we don't
care about not being able to distribute code we include with ReactOS?