Core developer

[none ofyourbussines]

What does it take to be a core developer?
Oh and  MS-DOS® support can be very good and windows has ms-dos® support too!

[Javier Agustìn Fernàndez Arroyo]

skilled in NT architecture API knowledge.....
make patches for ROS (and be approved)....
get commit access to the source code....

and some more

On Tue, May 8, 2012 at 9:35 AM, none ofyourbussines [e-mail]:
> What does it take to be a core developer?
> Oh and  MS-DOS® support can be very good and windows has ms-dos® support
> too!
>
> Ros-dev mailing list
> [e-mail]
> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev

[Igor Paliychuk]

It was decided to not add MS-DOS® emulation to ReactOS. There is
DosBox emulator which does all the things. It just should be
integrated into ReactOS

[Javier Agustìn Fernàndez Arroyo]

" It just should be
integrated into ReactOS"

i recently asked about this at IRC and the answer is "not as of now"

On Tue, May 8, 2012 at 9:52 AM, Igor Paliychuk [e-mail] wrote:
> It was decided to not add MS-DOS® emulation to ReactOS. There is
> DosBox emulator which does all the things. It just should be
> integrated into ReactOS
>
> Ros-dev mailing list
> [e-mail]
> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev

[Bernd Blaauw]

Op 8-5-2012 10:02, Javier Agustìn Fernàndez Arroyo schreef:
> " It just should be
> integrated into ReactOS"
>
> i recently asked about this at IRC and the answer is "not as of now"

What about the following utility? It's kind of a workaround though:
[ http://homepage3.nifty.com/takeda-toshiya/msdos/index.html ]

VDMsound and Dosbox are also reasonably functioning under Windows.

[Samuel Serapión]

Very nice... but its "just" an x86+dos emulator, just like dosbox.

On Tue, May 8, 2012 at 1:13 PM, Bernd Blaauw [e-mail] wrote:
> Op 8-5-2012 10:02, Javier Agustìn Fernàndez Arroyo schreef:
> > " It just should be
> > integrated into ReactOS"
> >
> > i recently asked about this at IRC and the answer is "not as of now"
>
> What about the following utility? It's kind of a workaround though:
> [ http://homepage3.nifty.com/takeda-toshiya/msdos/index.html ]
>
> VDMsound and Dosbox are also reasonably functioning under Windows.
>
> Ros-dev mailing list
> [e-mail]
> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev

[Andrew Faulds]

Hmm, apparently, Wine does NTVDM using DOSBox. I tried to run a DOS
app recently and it spawned WINE's NTVDM (I'm on Ubuntu), which spawns
DOSBox.

So I guess we could just copy in Wine's NTVDM?

On 14 May 2012 14:27, Samuel Serapión [e-mail] wrote:
> Very nice... but its "just" an x86+dos emulator, just like dosbox.
>
> On Tue, May 8, 2012 at 1:13 PM, Bernd Blaauw [e-mail] wrote:
> > Op 8-5-2012 10:02, Javier Agustìn Fernàndez Arroyo schreef:
> > > " It just should be
> > > integrated into ReactOS"
> > >
> > > i recently asked about this at IRC and the answer is "not as of now"
> >
> > What about the following utility? It's kind of a workaround though:
> > [ http://homepage3.nifty.com/takeda-toshiya/msdos/index.html ]
> >
> > VDMsound and Dosbox are also reasonably functioning under Windows.
> >
> > Ros-dev mailing list
> > [e-mail]
> > http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>
> Ros-dev mailing list
> [e-mail]
> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
-- 
Andrew Faulds (AJF)
http://ajf.me/

[Sven Barth]

Am 14.05.2012 17:56, schrieb Andrew Faulds:
> Hmm, apparently, Wine does NTVDM using DOSBox. I tried to run a DOS
> app recently and it spawned WINE's NTVDM (I'm on Ubuntu), which spawns
> DOSBox.
>
> So I guess we could just copy in Wine's NTVDM?

It might not be that trivial. While it's true that it uses DOSBox (and 
mounts all Wine drives besides Z) there is also some stuff going on 
which is currently hidden behind an external function 
"__wine_load_dos_exe" which I yet need to find and which is the one 
responsible of loading the binary into DOSBox somehow (and this is the 
interesting part!). Also one might need to test whether Win 3.11 
applications work in Wine. If so then it might indeed be interesting to 
investigate this further.

Regards,
Sven
> On 14 May 2012 14:27, Samuel Serapió[e-mail]  wrote:
> > Very nice... but its "just" an x86+dos emulator, just like dosbox.
> >
> > On Tue, May 8, 2012 at 1:13 PM, Bernd [e-mail]  wrote:
> > > Op 8-5-2012 10:02, Javier Agustìn Fernàndez Arroyo schreef:
> > > > " It just should be
> > > > integrated into ReactOS"
> > > >
> > > > i recently asked about this at IRC and the answer is "not as of now"
> > >
> > > What about the following utility? It's kind of a workaround though:
> > > [ http://homepage3.nifty.com/takeda-toshiya/msdos/index.html ]
> > >
> > > VDMsound and Dosbox are also reasonably functioning under Windows.
> > >
> > > Ros-dev mailing list
> > > [e-mail]
> > > http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> >
> > Ros-dev mailing list
> > [e-mail]
> > http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev

[Sven Barth]

Am 15.05.2012 11:56, schrieb Sven Barth:
> Am 14.05.2012 17:56, schrieb Andrew Faulds:
> > Hmm, apparently, Wine does NTVDM using DOSBox. I tried to run a DOS
> > app recently and it spawned WINE's NTVDM (I'm on Ubuntu), which spawns
> > DOSBox.
> >
> > So I guess we could just copy in Wine's NTVDM?
>
> It might not be that trivial. While it's true that it uses DOSBox (and
> mounts all Wine drives besides Z) there is also some stuff going on
> which is currently hidden behind an external function
> "__wine_load_dos_exe" which I yet need to find and which is the one
> responsible of loading the binary into DOSBox somehow (and this is the
> interesting part!). Also one might need to test whether Win 3.11
> applications work in Wine. If so then it might indeed be interesting to
> investigate this further.

I've looked a bit more into this and it is so that Wine supports two 
approaches:
* run 16-Bit executable natively (basically the same that Windows does)
* if that fails (e.g. on 64-bit Linux) run the application in DOSBox

So in the first case the application might correctly interact (and 
display) like other non-16-bit applications, but in the second case the 
application will be emulated and thus the application will not integrate 
as nicely as in the first case (especially if it is a graphical Win3.11 
application which also might require that you set up your DOSBox correctly).

Regards,
Sven

[Sven Barth]

Am 16.05.2012 08:00, schrieb Александр:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HX_DOS_Extender
> Is it usefull for us?

No, it's not useful. HX DOS basically goes the other way round: 
providing Windows functionality on DOS, but we want to provide DOS (and 
Win3.11) functionality on NT.

Regards,
Sven

[Andrew Faulds]

I'm sure WINE/ReactOS's implementation of these subsystems is far more
complete. Besides, we want code that runs on the Windows NT kernel to
implement this stuff, not DOS.

On 16 May 2012 13:51, Александр [e-mail] wrote:
> I was about code reuse!
> > The Win32 layer has limited support for
> > Windows, DirectDraw, GDI and OpenGL graphics.
>
> 16.05.2012, 16:40, "Sven Barth" [e-mail]:
>
> Am 16.05.2012 08:00, schrieb Александр:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HX_DOS_Extender
>  Is it usefull for us?
>
> No, it's not useful. HX DOS basically goes the other way round:
> providing Windows functionality on DOS, but we want to provide DOS (and
> Win3.11) functionality on NT.
>
> Regards,
> Sven
>
> Ros-dev mailing list
> [e-mail]
> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>
> --
> С наилучшими пожеланиями, Александр.
>
> Ros-dev mailing list
> [e-mail]
> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
-- 
Andrew Faulds (AJF)
http://ajf.me/

[Andrew Faulds]

Hmm but DOSBox does not integrate well into OS like NTVDM does. You can
just run "app.exe" in some diectory and it will act as if it was native,
can see all files in directory with 8~3 names, can change environment
variables, can be launched like other apps, etc.
On May 8, 2012 8:53 AM, "Igor Paliychuk" [e-mail] wrote:
> It was decided to not add MS-DOS® emulation to ReactOS. There is
> DosBox emulator which does all the things. It just should be
> integrated into ReactOS
>
> Ros-dev mailing list
> [e-mail]
> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev

[Sven Barth]

Am 08.05.2012 10:08, schrieb Andrew Faulds:
> Hmm but DOSBox does not integrate well into OS like NTVDM does. You can
> just run "app.exe" in some diectory and it will act as if it was native,
> can see all files in directory with 8~3 names, can change environment
> variables, can be launched like other apps, etc.

The starting of DOS applications could be implemented by starting DOSBox 
from within the CreateProcess call like NTVDM would be started. Other 
more difficual topics are accessing the available drives and perhaps 
interaction of the started application with the surrounding system 
(desktop, IPC, etc.) which is especially important for Windows 3.x 
applications.

Regards,
Sven

[Andrew Faulds]

Oh, I didn't think of that. Windows 3.x applications run in NTVDM?

On 8 May 2012 09:17, Sven Barth [e-mail] wrote:
> Am 08.05.2012 10:08, schrieb Andrew Faulds:
> > Hmm but DOSBox does not integrate well into OS like NTVDM does. You can
> > just run "app.exe" in some diectory and it will act as if it was native,
> > can see all files in directory with 8~3 names, can change environment
> > variables, can be launched like other apps, etc.
>
> The starting of DOS applications could be implemented by starting DOSBox
> from within the CreateProcess call like NTVDM would be started. Other more
> difficual topics are accessing the available drives and perhaps interaction
> of the started application with the surrounding system (desktop, IPC, etc.)
> which is especially important for Windows 3.x applications.
>
> Regards,
> Sven
>
> Ros-dev mailing list
> [e-mail]
> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
-- 
Andrew Faulds (AJF)
http://ajf.me/

[Sven Barth]

Am 08.05.2012 11:33, schrieb Andrew Faulds:
> Oh, I didn't think of that. Windows 3.x applications run in NTVDM?

Yes as they are basically "DOS applications" as well. Only Windows 95 
introduced a difference.

Regards,
Sven

[Andrew Faulds]

Ah, I see. Windows 3.1 was a 32-bit kernel running 16-bit applications, how odd.

On 8 May 2012 10:37, Sven Barth [e-mail] wrote:
> Am 08.05.2012 11:33, schrieb Andrew Faulds:
> > Oh, I didn't think of that. Windows 3.x applications run in NTVDM?
>
> Yes as they are basically "DOS applications" as well. Only Windows 95
> introduced a difference.
>
> Regards,
> Sven
>
> Ros-dev mailing list
> [e-mail]
> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
-- 
Andrew Faulds (AJF)
http://ajf.me/

[Sven Barth]

Am 08.05.2012 11:47, schrieb Andrew Faulds:
> Ah, I see. Windows 3.1 was a 32-bit kernel running 16-bit applications, how odd.

Ehm... no. Windows 3.x was a 16-bit system though it needed the 
protected mode to run (to perform 32-bit disk access, etc.).

Only Windows 95 was a (more) true 32-bit system (like Windows NT 3.1 was 
already).

Regards,
Sven
> On 8 May 2012 10:37, Sven [e-mail]  wrote:
> > Am 08.05.2012 11:33, schrieb Andrew Faulds:
> > > Oh, I didn't think of that. Windows 3.x applications run in NTVDM?
> >
> > Yes as they are basically "DOS applications" as well. Only Windows 95
> > introduced a difference.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Sven
> >
> > Ros-dev mailing list
> > [e-mail]
> > http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev

[Andrew Faulds]

Well yes, it ran in protected mode. In 386 Enhanced mode it was a
32-bit kernel. That's why Win32s worked, I think. But it still relied
on DOS in part.

On 8 May 2012 11:02, Sven Barth [e-mail] wrote:
> Am 08.05.2012 11:47, schrieb Andrew Faulds:
> > Ah, I see. Windows 3.1 was a 32-bit kernel running 16-bit applications,
> > how odd.
>
> Ehm... no. Windows 3.x was a 16-bit system though it needed the protected
> mode to run (to perform 32-bit disk access, etc.).
>
> Only Windows 95 was a (more) true 32-bit system (like Windows NT 3.1 was
> already).
>
> Regards,
> Sven
> > On 8 May 2012 10:37, Sven [e-mail]  wrote:
> > > Am 08.05.2012 11:33, schrieb Andrew Faulds:
> > > > Oh, I didn't think of that. Windows 3.x applications run in NTVDM?
> > >
> > > Yes as they are basically "DOS applications" as well. Only Windows 95
> > > introduced a difference.
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > > Sven
> > >
> > > Ros-dev mailing list
> > > [e-mail]
> > > http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>
> Ros-dev mailing list
> [e-mail]
> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
-- 
Andrew Faulds (AJF)
http://ajf.me/

[Igor Paliychuk]

Afaik WINE has partial NTVDM implementation. So it can be ported+added
DosBox. But for main devs it is the last thing to do atm. If you are
volunteering (none ofyourbussines) you can do it yourself (if devs
give "accept")

[Wesley Parish]

MS Win 3.0 as largely a DOS extender written large, with a graphical  
interface.

MS Win 3.1 had a bit more of the 32-bit disk access and the like;  
iirc it made better use of protected memory - though not much. It  
liked crashing.

MS Win 3.1 Windows For Workgroups was a lot closer to a 32-bit  
system, though it - much like the remainder of the Win 3.x/9.x lineup  
- relied on DOS as a boot loader and thunked its merry way through  
int21h and the like.

MS Win NT was built on a different model, taken almost completely  
lock-stock-and-barrel from DEC's VMS and related systems. NT didn't  
need DOS - in fact, it tended to crash badly written Win/DOS  
applications.

I expect DOSBox will run Win3.x/9.x apps without too much trouble,  
provided they can access suitable DLLs.

On 8/05/2012, at 10:02 PM, Sven Barth wrote:
> Am 08.05.2012 11:47, schrieb Andrew Faulds:
> > Ah, I see. Windows 3.1 was a 32-bit kernel running 16-bit  
> > applications, how odd.
>
> Ehm... no. Windows 3.x was a 16-bit system though it needed the  
> protected mode to run (to perform 32-bit disk access, etc.).
>
> Only Windows 95 was a (more) true 32-bit system (like Windows NT  
> 3.1 was already).
>
> Regards,
> Sven
> > On 8 May 2012 10:37, Sven [e-mail]  wrote:
> > > Am 08.05.2012 11:33, schrieb Andrew Faulds:
> > > > Oh, I didn't think of that. Windows 3.x applications run in NTVDM?
> > >
> > > Yes as they are basically "DOS applications" as well. Only  
> > > Windows 95
> > > introduced a difference.
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > > Sven
> > >
> > > Ros-dev mailing list
> > > [e-mail]
> > > http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>
> Ros-dev mailing list
> [e-mail]
> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev

[Andrew Faulds]

Problem is DOSBox doesn't integrate with host OS aside from "mounting"
drives. If we wanted Win3.x apps to run we'd need to include Windows
3.x or make our own.

On 8 May 2012 11:27, Wesley Parish [e-mail] wrote:
> MS Win 3.0 as largely a DOS extender written large, with a graphical
> interface.
>
> MS Win 3.1 had a bit more of the 32-bit disk access and the like; iirc it
> made better use of protected memory - though not much. It liked crashing.
>
> MS Win 3.1 Windows For Workgroups was a lot closer to a 32-bit system,
> though it - much like the remainder of the Win 3.x/9.x lineup - relied on
> DOS as a boot loader and thunked its merry way through int21h and the like.
>
> MS Win NT was built on a different model, taken almost completely
> lock-stock-and-barrel from DEC's VMS and related systems. NT didn't need DOS
> in fact, it tended to crash badly written Win/DOS applications.
>
> I expect DOSBox will run Win3.x/9.x apps without too much trouble, provided
> they can access suitable DLLs.
>
> On 8/05/2012, at 10:02 PM, Sven Barth wrote:
> > Am 08.05.2012 11:47, schrieb Andrew Faulds:
> > > Ah, I see. Windows 3.1 was a 32-bit kernel running 16-bit applications,
> > > how odd.
> >
> > Ehm... no. Windows 3.x was a 16-bit system though it needed the protected
> > mode to run (to perform 32-bit disk access, etc.).
> >
> > Only Windows 95 was a (more) true 32-bit system (like Windows NT 3.1 was
> > already).
> >
> > Regards,
> > Sven
> > > On 8 May 2012 10:37, Sven [e-mail]  wrote:
> > > > Am 08.05.2012 11:33, schrieb Andrew Faulds:
> > > > > Oh, I didn't think of that. Windows 3.x applications run in NTVDM?
> > > >
> > > > Yes as they are basically "DOS applications" as well. Only Windows 95
> > > > introduced a difference.
> > > >
> > > > Regards,
> > > > Sven
> > > >
> > > > Ros-dev mailing list
> > > > [e-mail]
> > > > http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> >
> > Ros-dev mailing list
> > [e-mail]
> > http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>
> Ros-dev mailing list
> [e-mail]
> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
-- 
Andrew Faulds (AJF)
http://ajf.me/

[Andrew Faulds]

Do we even have ntvdm working yet?
On May 8, 2012 8:36 AM, "none ofyourbussines" [e-mail] wrote:
> What does it take to be a core developer?
> Oh and  MS-DOS® support can be very good and windows has ms-dos® support
> too!
>
> Ros-dev mailing list
> [e-mail]
> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev