Open-source and newcomers

[Alex]

Hello all,

Open-source and newcomers
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I've been here for 2 weeks already and I want to share some thoughts
from the point of view of a newcomer.

I want to make a claim as an axiom and see where it goes from there.
If you don't agree with the axiom you should probably read something
on ethology and group behavior.

I beg you to be open-minded.

--

So the axiom is:

  "A closed group of humans (and many other social animals) usually
  is emotionally and irrationally unfriendly to newcomers, due to
  the evolutionary baggage we all share."

The group assumes a hostile position to a newcomer. Many members don't
realize what is going on. It simply feels like: "I just hate this guy!"

Members, of course, feel special and somewhat better, just because
they are part of the group. They see newcomers as not-worthy to some
extent, just because the newcomer is not in the group. They see the
newcomer as an alien and – as a threat. Subconsciously. Don't bother
to reply and tell me that I am not-worthy to be seen as a threat :)

The general feeling is "Who the f#ck he thinks he is? He's not from
our group, he is not one of us (he didn't do anything to our project
yet). Blah-blah-blah... I just hate this guy!". This irrational hate
is very tangible, believe me. It is very de-motivational. (And I
probably shouldn't have reacted the way I did to some of it, but, hey,
I am no Jesus Christ, and it's only now that I've sorted those things
out for myself).

But you can say: Hey, we are not hostile, because:

 - "I, personally, entered the group in the past and it was Ok."
 - "Look at that guy and that guy – we were soooo nice to them!"

Let's see... When can a closed group readily accept a newcomer?
When it doesn't perceive him as a threat.

This means the newcomer must come in a very submissive pose and
exhibit not a slightest sign of aggressive attitude. Actually, the
more you cry for mercy, the more chances are that you will be easily
accepted into the group. Broken leg or being a total looser may help,
as compassion will start to overtake the initial hostility.

The "pose" on the text-based Internet is mainly how one talks.
This is an example of a submissive pose:

"Oh, Great Lords, you are so cool and I am not worthy. I beg you to
let me develop for ReactOS, I am not much, but I will dutifully learn
from you, Wise Masters, I will catch every word you say and ignore any
insults you will throw my way. I will not criticize you in any way.
I will do all the shitty tasks silently and obediently for several years
until I slowly climb your social ladder. I will not complain of being
called stupid and not-worthy 'cause that's who I am..."

And so it goes... An ass-kisser, to be short.

And then the Wise Great Masters will generously allow this no-worthy
worm into their Temple.

This happens everywhere. Just take a closer look. 

--

But this constitutes a problem. The group acts as a filter that favors
the wrong kind of people.

Because a good developer, after all, is usually opinionated, criticizes
what he thinks is wrong, doesn't like to be called stupid and be given
insults and shitty tasks. He challenges existing routines and things
the group got used to. He is a threat.

--

Unfortunately, I do not have a solution. I just want to attract your
attention to it.


P.S. You may ask – didn't you think that this hostility is a
consequence of you being a jerk? If being a jerk means not kissing
asses of Great Masters – then yeah, I may be guilty of that.

P.P.S. Before posting a reply, please take a look inside you and try
to see if that reply is based on "I just hate this guy!" :)

Thanks!

-- 
Best regards,
 Alex                          mailto:[e-mail]

[Dmitry Gorbachev]

Hi,

>   The general feeling is "Who the f#ck he thinks he
> is? He's not from
>  our group, he is not one of us (he didn't do anything to our project
>  yet). Blah-blah-blah... I just hate this guy!". This irrational hate
>  is very tangible, believe me. It is very de-motivational. (And I
>  probably shouldn't have reacted the way I did to some of it, but, hey,
>  I am no Jesus Christ, and it's only now that I've sorted those things
>  out for myself).
>
>  But you can say: Hey, we are not hostile, because:
>
>   - "I, personally, entered the group in the past and it was Ok."
>   - "Look at that guy and that guy – we were soooo nice to them!"
>
>  Let's see... When can a closed group readily accept a newcomer?
>  When it doesn't perceive him as a threat.
>
>  This means the newcomer must come in a very submissive pose and
>  exhibit not a slightest sign of aggressive attitude. Actually, the
>  more you cry for mercy, the more chances are that you will be easily
>  accepted into the group. Broken leg or being a total looser may help,
>  as compassion will start to overtake the initial hostility.
>
>  The "pose" on the text-based Internet is mainly how one talks.
>  This is an example of a submissive pose:
>
>  "Oh, Great Lords, you are so cool and I am not worthy. I beg you to
>  let me develop for ReactOS, I am not much, but I will dutifully learn
>  from you, Wise Masters, I will catch every word you say and ignore any
>  insults you will throw my way. I will not criticize you in any way.
>  I will do all the shitty tasks silently and obediently for several years
>  until I slowly climb your social ladder. I will not complain of being
>  called stupid and not-worthy 'cause that's who I am..."
>
>  And so it goes... An ass-kisser, to be short.
>
>  And then the Wise Great Masters will generously allow this no-worthy
>  worm into their Temple.
>
>  This happens everywhere. Just take a closer look.
>
>  --
>
>  But this constitutes a problem. The group acts as a filter that favors
>  the wrong kind of people.
>
>  Because a good developer, after all, is usually opinionated, criticizes
>  what he thinks is wrong, doesn't like to be called stupid and be given
>  insults and shitty tasks. He challenges existing routines and things
>  the group got used to. He is a threat. 
I think you're greatly exaggerating! Also, please read this from GCC
mailing list: <http://gcc.gnu.org/ml/gcc/2009-04/msg00494.html>.

[Olaf Siejka]

I have to agree with Dimitry


>   "I want to make a claim as an axiom and see where
> it goes from there.
> If you don't agree with the axiom you should probably read something
> on ethology and group behavior." 
Very bad start. Reader is put into simple choice, agree or you are
uneducated. Ever thought you may be wrong?

>  " I beg you to be open-minded." 
Are you?

>   "A closed group of humans (and many other social
> animals) usually
>  is emotionally and irrationally unfriendly to newcomers, due to
>  the evolutionary baggage we all share." 
What is simply called "The Tribe approach". Criticized one. Strangely, it
ommits few factors, like the one we a sentinent specie, one that is capable
of thinking rationaly and not following irrationality or emotions. Highly
specialized, technical or scientific groups are even more relying on
rationality than emotions. IT people (or Geeks/nerds) are even better
example of that. Oh crap... we are one...

>  The group assumes a hostile position to a newcomer.
> Many members don't
> realize what is going on. It simply feels like: "I just hate this guy!" 
The lecturer starts with biased and unproven assumption, so he can squeeze
his logically questionable proof into more solid basis. Just browse forums.
Look for beginner`s posts. Read the replies

>  Members, of course, feel special and somewhat better,
> just because
> they are part of the group. They see newcomers as not-worthy to some
> extent, just because the newcomer is not in the group. They see the
> newcomer as an alien and – as a threat. Subconsciously. Don't bother
> to reply and tell me that I am not-worthy to be seen as a threat :) 
Again, we are sentinent, rational. We are able to evaluate behavior and
knowledge of another being and act accordingly. Actually, you have to WORK
REALLY HARD to be disliked. Guys.... Do we perceive new people as a threat?
Especially those who want to join in and help out???? Really care2debug, you
are so ignorant of how this community fares, its getting funny,

>  The general feeling is "Who the f#ck he thinks he
> is? He's not from
> our group, he is not one of us (he didn't do anything to our project
> yet). Blah-blah-blah... I just hate this guy!". This irrational hate 
Expanded idea from above. Utter crap. Do not want.

>  This means the newcomer must come in a very submissive
> pose and
> exhibit not a slightest sign of aggressive attitude. Actually, the
> more you cry for mercy, the more chances are that you will be easily
> accepted into the group. Broken leg or being a total looser may help,
> as compassion will start to overtake the initial hostility.
> The "pose" on the text-based Internet is mainly how one talks.
> This is an example of a submissive pose:
>
> "Oh, Great Lords, you are so cool and I am not worthy. I beg you to
> let me develop for ReactOS, I am not much, but I will dutifully learn
> And so it goes... An ass-kisser, to be short. 
This part is outrightly offending to me.
This message you made up, is of course exagerated, but even the lite ones, i
personally hate. Those are very often not based
on any ReactOS experience, but mostly on great expectations this project is
creating. Why do i know that? Because i (and not only me) had such
expectations as well, when i first seen it. Then, i checked out the reality.
I prefer well thought criticism or reporting what is wrong, especially if it
touches some area we haven`t thought ourselves yet. Those are of most value.
Saying we like asskissers, and that we force/expect such behaviour is the
very fine argument for banning you. You admitted that you havent been with
us for long, yet you pull such strong accusations. Publicly. Its called
libel.


>   This happens everywhere. Just take a closer look.
Not here, in your mind perhaps. Any proof?

>  But this constitutes a problem. The group acts as a
> filter that favors
> the wrong kind of people.
>
> Because a good developer, after all, is usually opinionated, criticizes
> what he thinks is wrong, doesn't like to be called stupid and be given
> insults and shitty tasks. He challenges existing routines and things
> the group got used to. He is a threat. 
No. Stay online for few months and maybe you witness a potential developer
joining in and asking around, our reaction as well.
Right now you are unjust.

>  P.S. You may ask – didn't you think that this
> hostility is a
> consequence of you being a jerk? If being a jerk means not kissing
> asses of Great Masters – then yeah, I may be guilty of that.
>
> P.P.S. Before posting a reply, please take a look inside you and try
> to see if that reply is based on "I just hate this guy!" :) 
I dont hate you. You are not worthy of such strong emotions. That little
time you spent here, shows that you are one of those big-headed, "i know
all" types, who must have their last word, even if its offending person you
are discussing with. Remember calling Physicus names? Just because he didnt
agree with your exotic approach to physics?
In this short time, you managed to offend several people... You managed to
badmouth project on our irc channel, by insisting that we might have any
leaked code (how can you otherwise call asking what part of our code is
leaked?) and when asked on proof you just left, on forums (
http://www.reactos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=7076&p=62250#p622…) and
now you are offending ReactOS team, by accusing them of expecting newjoiners
to asslick...

How dare you?

Now let me present a countertheory. Do you know who is despised in our
community? Smart-asses, who think they have eaten all knowledge, and think
that they know all the answers, noobs, that DEMAND things to be done for
their liking, and flaming up when refused and idiots who want to change the
project around without even trying to study it closer.

Guess which cathegory you fit it?

[Aleksey Bragin]

You do know I don't hate you, rather vice versa, I try to help any  
newcomer.

As Dmitry said, your point of view is slightly biased. Try not to  
engage into argument with everyone, and try to do some analyze: a  
newcomer is a foreigner to our team. A guest. Who is always received  
nice at first. Later, if the guest behaves good, he's benefitting his  
staying. If the guest tries to set some new orders, demand something  
or anything else - he might get a negative perception.

I'm not saying you're doing something wrong, just try to be more  
friendly. Those people spent quite some time, some even a few years  
in the project, in our team, and, believe me, they know something. It  
doesn't give them, or me, or anyone else to treat a newcomer as a  
lower-world person of course! Just for the time being they gained  
some experience in other areas which they would even be glad to share  
with you.

What I want you to be sure about: newcomers, especially as valuable  
as developers are received very good and welcomely. Then, it all  
depends on a particular person, his social abilities, and interaction  
with other members of our team. Which is, in general, very friendly  
(how else could we work for so many years and not ran away?! ;)).


WBR,
Aleksey Bragin.

On Jul 17, 2009, at 7:00 PM, Alex wrote:

>   Hello all,
>
>  Open-source and newcomers
>  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>  
>   P.P.S. Before posting a reply, please take a look
> inside you and try
>  to see if that reply is based on "I just hate this guy!" :)
>
>  Thanks!
>
>  -- 
>  Best regards,
>   Alex                          mailto:[e-mail]

[Alexandru Lovin]

On Sat, Jul 18, 2009 at 12:04 AM, Aleksey Bragin <aleksey(a)reactos.org>wrote;wrote:

>   You do know I don't hate you, rather vice versa, I
> try to help any
>  newcomer. 

He did that with me, and I am not a valuable developer.



>   As Dmitry said, your point of view is slightly biased.
> Try not to
>  engage into argument with everyone, and try to do some analyze: a
>  newcomer is a foreigner to our team. A guest. Who is always received
>  nice at first. Later, if the guest behaves good, he's benefitting his
>  staying. If the guest tries to set some new orders, demand something
>  or anything else - he might get a negative perception. 

Exactly what I did. And I think I didn't get a negative perception - nobody
goes "oh great, that guy again" on IRC, not even when I talk.


>   What I want you to be sure about: newcomers,
> especially as valuable
>  as developers are received very good and welcomely. Then, it all
>  depends on a particular person, his social abilities, and interaction
>  with other members of our team. Which is, in general, very friendly
>  (how else could we work for so many years and not ran away?! ;)).
>  
This is the most important part of Aleksey's e-mail. I have seen people join
the channel and say "hi, I can be a dev, what do I do?" No one told them to
go away. Everyone just told them to pick a thing to do and what the rules
are (e.g. if you submit a patch, you don't commit it yourself, another
developer reviews it first and then submits it if it's ok, mentioning your
name - same for translations).

Haven't seen your story on IRC but inside this project, smart assing
requires style, near-perfect knowledge of English, delicate manners, awesome
charm but most of all, a great sense of right and wrong. Two people do this
in a fantastic way: another Alex and a cook-programmer-writer-gentleman
who's generally very busy. You're either born with this or not, you can't
educate it. There was a discussion earlier on this mailing list about how
commits should be formatted. These people included insults in a template,
Alex. It doesn't even matter what the template was for. This is not because
they're evil or aggressive, but because this is how they work -
affectionately. Affectionate insults, bragging, kicking, banning or whatever
else. Don't think "affectionately" excludes "rationally," though.
When they
need to be rational, they are. This was the case when you got banned. No one
cared who was right, it's just that no one wanted to have a troll hanging
around shouting who-knows-what. They don't have time to carefully weigh
every aspect and every nuance of what you said. The rules are very elastic
but no abuse.

That different Alex, at one point, fixed a very old bug. After doing so, he
said:

"I have fixed the oldest bug in ReactOS history"
"Thank you"
" *unzips pants* "

Now, before you say these people are evil, read this:

http://www.somethingawful.com/d/news/magic-internet-prism.php

I'm not saying you are one of those, I'm just saying "don't become any
of
those."

And then, watch this:

http://www.somethingawful.com/d/comedy-goldmine/lowtax-speaks-at.php

You should be able to behave correctly after paying attention to all of
that.

This project might look like it could be much more and it could fail and all
that. This was "predicted" so many times...but ReactOS still goes on. I did
have my own ideas about the project, but you can't implement a clone of the
Vista Aero interface without having the display functionality working darn
well (I didn't suggest that, just an example).

So, patience. As either a user or a developer. No one wants you dead or
banned or anything else. People are not reluctant to newcomers - not these
people.

I believe we have met Stefan's doppelganger! (read: evil other self)


>  
>  On Jul 17, 2009, at 7:00 PM, Alex wrote:
>
> >   Hello all,
> >
> >  Open-source and newcomers
> >  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >  
> >   P.P.S. Before posting a reply, please take a look
> > inside you and try
> >  to see if that reply is based on "I just hate this guy!" :)
> >
> >  Thanks!
> >
> >  --
> >  Best regards,
> >   Alex                          mailto:[e-mail] 
>  _______________________________________________
>  Ros-dev mailing list
>  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
>  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>  


-- 
Alex Lovin - www.erasereality.3x.ro

[Andrew Greenwood]

Whilst Alex's mail may have some slightly over-the-top examples, he does
have a point. I would disagree that a newcomer is seen as a "threat"
however - I would suggest perhaps that it's more a case of "who does
this newbie think he is?"

Let's face it - what threat is one person toward a team of people?

I have seen disagreements between devs and newcomers, and even just
between devs, some have been very hostile.

Some people will stay and argue, but many will just go away silently.
Not everyone states their displeasure - particularly if it's their first
visit. They can just hit the X button on their browser/IRC window.

The #reactos IRC channel is far too volatile for a project's official
IRC channel - even if not actually intended to discuss development
matters, it has the potential to be the first point of contact a
newcomer will have with the developers. If someone wanders into a
"playground" environment, what impression does this leave them with? The
only moderation that seems to occur is quite ad-hoc. When someone feels
like kicking/blocking, they do it. Very often, it may not be for the
right reasons.

Granted there will be trolls, there will be timewasters, but there will
also be people who may be new to ReactOS, who may ultimately end up
being a core member of the team.

Also bear in mind, by creating something intended to be almost exactly
like Windows, the potential user base is likely to be less tech-savvy
than for example Linux users (and yes I realise there are Linux newbies,
too.) So there will *always* be people asking how to do relatively
simple things that they can do with Windows. Some people might not even
know what "alpha" means!

Anyway, that's my thoughts on the matter.


Andrew
www.silverblade.co.uk



Alex wrote:
>   Hello all,
>
>  Open-source and newcomers
>  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>  I've been here for 2 weeks already and I want to share some thoughts
>  from the point of view of a newcomer.
>
>  I want to make a claim as an axiom and see where it goes from there.
>  If you don't agree with the axiom you should probably read something
>  on ethology and group behavior.
>
>  I beg you to be open-minded.
>
>  --
>
>  So the axiom is:
>
>    "A closed group of humans (and many other social animals) usually
>    is emotionally and irrationally unfriendly to newcomers, due to
>    the evolutionary baggage we all share."
>
>  The group assumes a hostile position to a newcomer. Many members don't
>  realize what is going on. It simply feels like: "I just hate this guy!"
>
>  Members, of course, feel special and somewhat better, just because
>  they are part of the group. They see newcomers as not-worthy to some
>  extent, just because the newcomer is not in the group. They see the
>  newcomer as an alien and – as a threat. Subconsciously. Don't bother
>  to reply and tell me that I am not-worthy to be seen as a threat :)
>
>  The general feeling is "Who the f#ck he thinks he is? He's not from
>  our group, he is not one of us (he didn't do anything to our project
>  yet). Blah-blah-blah... I just hate this guy!". This irrational hate
>  is very tangible, believe me. It is very de-motivational. (And I
>  probably shouldn't have reacted the way I did to some of it, but, hey,
>  I am no Jesus Christ, and it's only now that I've sorted those things
>  out for myself).
>
>  But you can say: Hey, we are not hostile, because:
>
>   - "I, personally, entered the group in the past and it was Ok."
>   - "Look at that guy and that guy – we were soooo nice to them!"
>
>  Let's see... When can a closed group readily accept a newcomer?
>  When it doesn't perceive him as a threat.
>
>  This means the newcomer must come in a very submissive pose and
>  exhibit not a slightest sign of aggressive attitude. Actually, the
>  more you cry for mercy, the more chances are that you will be easily
>  accepted into the group. Broken leg or being a total looser may help,
>  as compassion will start to overtake the initial hostility.
>
>  The "pose" on the text-based Internet is mainly how one talks.
>  This is an example of a submissive pose:
>
>  "Oh, Great Lords, you are so cool and I am not worthy. I beg you to
>  let me develop for ReactOS, I am not much, but I will dutifully learn
>  from you, Wise Masters, I will catch every word you say and ignore any
>  insults you will throw my way. I will not criticize you in any way.
>  I will do all the shitty tasks silently and obediently for several years
>  until I slowly climb your social ladder. I will not complain of being
>  called stupid and not-worthy 'cause that's who I am..."
>
>  And so it goes... An ass-kisser, to be short.
>
>  And then the Wise Great Masters will generously allow this no-worthy
>  worm into their Temple.
>
>  This happens everywhere. Just take a closer look. 
>
>  --
>
>  But this constitutes a problem. The group acts as a filter that favors
>  the wrong kind of people.
>
>  Because a good developer, after all, is usually opinionated, criticizes
>  what he thinks is wrong, doesn't like to be called stupid and be given
>  insults and shitty tasks. He challenges existing routines and things
>  the group got used to. He is a threat.
>
>  --
>
>  Unfortunately, I do not have a solution. I just want to attract your
>  attention to it.
>
>
>  P.S. You may ask – didn't you think that this hostility is a
>  consequence of you being a jerk? If being a jerk means not kissing
>  asses of Great Masters – then yeah, I may be guilty of that.
>
>  P.P.S. Before posting a reply, please take a look inside you and try
>  to see if that reply is based on "I just hate this guy!" :)
>
>  Thanks!
>
>

[Olaf Siejka]

People asking questions are always welcome here and never pushed around.
Forum archive holds countless examples of same questions being answered over
and over again in years.

[Alex]

Hello Andrew,

Saturday, July 18, 2009, 1:33:49 AM, you wrote:

>   Whilst Alex's mail may have some slightly
> over-the-top examples, he does
>  have a point. I would disagree that a newcomer is seen as a "threat"
>  however - I would suggest perhaps that it's more a case of "who does
>  this newbie think he is?" 
Let me clarify, what I meant.

This "threat" is only a subconscious threat. It's not a usual threat in
a sense "one person vs a team" or "alien vs predator".

Well, coming to think about it, it's not so easy to explain, actually :)

It's just an inner feeling of being threatened - that your routine,
the things you get used to are challenged and may change. A person's
inner ego may wonder "what's gonna happen to me personally? To my
position in the group, if things start to change?"

We are social animals and to observe the same reaction you don't need
to involve groups. We are "threatened" equally by _any_ stranger. We
wonder: who is he? How he will behave? What can or will he do to me
personally?

You meat somebody, (even if not in a hostile environment, like a dark
street, but let's say during some party) and your inner ego wonders
what this new guy will do. What if he becomes more popular than I am?
(Not to suggest to any literally-minded people here, that I am talking
about myself. I sure won't win any popularity contests :)

But you wonder. You wonder if that guy will turn out to be so much
better than yourself that he may take your job. Or your girlfriend.

Sometimes you wonder consciously, but most of the time this is all
hidden. It only manifests itself as a feeling.

Sometimes it may manifest as "who does this newbie think he is?".

Sometimes it may manifest itself as "I just hate this guy!" :)

Hope this will clarify it a bit.

-- 
Best regards,
 Alex                            mailto:[e-mail]

[James Tabor]

Sorry for going OT:

On Fri, Jul 17, 2009 at 5:09 PM, Alex<care2debug(a)gmail.com> wrote:

Some of our best kernel programmers we had/have started at the age of
~13/14... The first one was really considered as a threat~ His name
was Alex too. Later on, coauthored a well known best seller book, more
to come I hope. But we have moved on from that. I guess what we are
looking for, is, Where's the code MAN! Where is it?! Stop typing here
and start typing over there and create some CODE!
James

[Alex]

Hello James,

Saturday, July 18, 2009, 2:48:27 AM, you wrote:

>   Where's the code MAN! Where is it?! Stop typing
> here
>  and start typing over there and create some CODE! 
Gee, guys, will you all get off my back with that "what did YOU do
for ROS" crap? If you don't see something it doesn't mean it doesn't
exist. I am not a ninja, I like to think while I code. And it takes
time.

Thank you for advising me what I should do, but I am ill for the
last few days and too ill to code today.

So excuse me, but I'm gonna type here instead, until I feel better.
Maybe I can bring something useful by just talking.

-- 
Best regards,
 Alex                            mailto:[e-mail]

[Johannes Anderwald]

Alex schrieb:
>   Hello all,
>
>     
Hi,

First of all, this is a public mailing list. In that case it usually to 
post your full name and not just prename ;)
>   But this constitutes a problem. The group acts as a
> filter that favors
>  the wrong kind of people.
>     
[...]
Guess what? Do you think you are immediately accepted anywhere you want 
to join? No you are not! If you are joining a group, you are to obey to 
these rules. Once you have become an accepted member of the group, the 
group may listen to your thoughts (if you got an eligible status).

regards
Johannes Anderwald