Re: [ros-dev] Opening up #reactos-dev to the public

[Alex Ionescu]

I don't agree. Maintain the auto-voice lists and get someone in charge of
operations, like I used to be for many years on IRC.

Instead, why not create a #reactos-gsoc or something?

Best regards,
Alex Ionescu

On Fri, Mar 24, 2017 at 11:19 AM, Mark Jansen [e-mail]
wrote:
> We can always try it out?
> If it doesnt work, restoring it is a simple as setting a flag on the
> channel.
>
> On 24 March 2017 at 16:31, David Quintana (gigaherz) [e-mail]
> wrote:
> > I disagree -- if we can be firm about the channel being only for
>
> development
> > talk, things should remain mostly as they are now.
> >
> > In any community, there's inevitably going to be idle talk, offtopic
> > conversations, etc. If you only have ONE place to talk in, all those
>
> thigns
> > are going to be mixed in with actual dev talk, but if you have clear
>
> rooms
> > set for each thing, the majority of people will be happy to leave all the
> > offtopic talk to the main channel, and dev talk to the dev channel.
> >
> > It works for plenty other projects and communities so there's no reason
>
> to
> > be pessimistic and think that "our idiots are worse". It's simply not
>
> true.
> > I vote for trying, and we can always put back the +m if things get out of
> > hand.
> >
> > On 24 March 2017 at 16:13, Hermès BÉLUSCA-MAÏTO [e-mail]
> > wrote:
> > > I don’t approve the idea. The fact is that if the devs quit originally
> > > #reactos, it’s because it was generally too noisy, etc… . If we remove
>
> the
> > > moderation irc bit in #reactos-dev, you may expect the same phenomenon
>
> to
> > > occur in #reactos-dev too.
> > >
> > > De : Ros-dev [mailto:[e-mail]] De la part de David
> > > Quintana (gigaherz)
> > > Envoyé : vendredi 24 mars 2017 11:35
> > > À : ReactOS Development List
> > > Objet : Re: [ros-dev] Opening up #reactos-dev to the public
> > >
> > > I approve the idea.
> > >
> > > On 24 March 2017 at 11:21, Colin Finck [e-mail] wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi all!
> > >
> > > As you all know, our #reactos-dev IRC channel has been a moderated IRC
> > > channel for decades, and only operators (devs) and voiced people can
> > > talk. While we always tried to keep discussions dev-related there, no
> > > topic has ever been enforced on #reactos. The result is that I see a
> > > notable number of developers only on #reactos-dev these days.
> > >
> > > This is a pretty bad situation! Emerging developers hardly have a way to
> > > interact with all existing devs on IRC. Often enough, legitimate
> > > questions from them remain unanswered on #reactos. Moreover, we don't
> > > maintain the list of voiced people thoroughly, so even some contributors
> > > have to ask for temporary voice on #reactos-dev.
> > >
> > > Keep in mind that we're currently in the GSoC phase where students shall
> > > submit their proposals and get in touch with the developers.
> > > How are they going to do this on IRC if #reactos-dev continues to be an
> > > exclusive club?
> > >
> > > Because of these reasons, I'm proposing to remove the moderation bit on
> > > #reactos-dev and let everybody talk there.
> > > Its development topic should be enforced though! As soon as people get
> > > too off-topic, they should be directed to #reactos and kicked if nothing
> > > else helps. Given that all devs are already operators on #reactos-dev,
> > > it's fully in their hands.
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > >
> > > Colin
> > >
> > > Ros-dev mailing list
> > > [e-mail]
> > > http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> > >
> > > Ros-dev mailing list
> > > [e-mail]
> > > http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> >
> > Ros-dev mailing list
> > [e-mail]
> > http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>
> Ros-dev mailing list
> [e-mail]
> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev

[James Tabor]

Yes, that's a better idea. #reactos-gsoc

On Fri, Mar 24, 2017 at 6:53 PM, Alex Ionescu [e-mail] wrote:
> I don't agree. Maintain the auto-voice lists and get someone in charge of
> operations, like I used to be for many years on IRC.
>
> Instead, why not create a #reactos-gsoc or something?
>
> Best regards,
> Alex Ionescu
>
> On Fri, Mar 24, 2017 at 11:19 AM, Mark Jansen [e-mail]
> wrote:
> > We can always try it out?
> > If it doesnt work, restoring it is a simple as setting a flag on the
> > channel.
> >
> > On 24 March 2017 at 16:31, David Quintana (gigaherz) [e-mail]
> > wrote:
> > > I disagree -- if we can be firm about the channel being only for
> >
> > development
> > > talk, things should remain mostly as they are now.
> > >
> > > In any community, there's inevitably going to be idle talk, offtopic
> > > conversations, etc. If you only have ONE place to talk in, all those
> >
> > thigns
> > > are going to be mixed in with actual dev talk, but if you have clear
> >
> > rooms
> > > set for each thing, the majority of people will be happy to leave all
> >
> > the
> > > offtopic talk to the main channel, and dev talk to the dev channel.
> > >
> > > It works for plenty other projects and communities so there's no reason
> >
> > to
> > > be pessimistic and think that "our idiots are worse". It's simply not
> >
> > true.
> > > I vote for trying, and we can always put back the +m if things get out
> >
> > of
> > > hand.
> > >
> > > On 24 March 2017 at 16:13, Hermès BÉLUSCA-MAÏTO [e-mail]
> > > wrote:
> > > > I don’t approve the idea. The fact is that if the devs quit originally
> > > > #reactos, it’s because it was generally too noisy, etc… . If we remove
> >
> > the
> > > > moderation irc bit in #reactos-dev, you may expect the same phenomenon
> >
> > to
> > > > occur in #reactos-dev too.
> > > >
> > > > De : Ros-dev [mailto:[e-mail]] De la part de David
> > > > Quintana (gigaherz)
> > > > Envoyé : vendredi 24 mars 2017 11:35
> > > > À : ReactOS Development List
> > > > Objet : Re: [ros-dev] Opening up #reactos-dev to the public
> > > >
> > > > I approve the idea.
> > > >
> > > > On 24 March 2017 at 11:21, Colin Finck [e-mail] wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hi all!
> > > >
> > > > As you all know, our #reactos-dev IRC channel has been a moderated IRC
> > > > channel for decades, and only operators (devs) and voiced people can
> > > > talk. While we always tried to keep discussions dev-related there, no
> > > > topic has ever been enforced on #reactos. The result is that I see a
> > > > notable number of developers only on #reactos-dev these days.
> > > >
> > > > This is a pretty bad situation! Emerging developers hardly have a way
> >
> > to
> > > > interact with all existing devs on IRC. Often enough, legitimate
> > > > questions from them remain unanswered on #reactos. Moreover, we don't
> > > > maintain the list of voiced people thoroughly, so even some
> >
> > contributors
> > > > have to ask for temporary voice on #reactos-dev.
> > > >
> > > > Keep in mind that we're currently in the GSoC phase where students
> >
> > shall
> > > > submit their proposals and get in touch with the developers.
> > > > How are they going to do this on IRC if #reactos-dev continues to be an
> > > > exclusive club?
> > > >
> > > > Because of these reasons, I'm proposing to remove the moderation bit on
> > > > #reactos-dev and let everybody talk there.
> > > > Its development topic should be enforced though! As soon as people get
> > > > too off-topic, they should be directed to #reactos and kicked if
> >
> > nothing
> > > > else helps. Given that all devs are already operators on #reactos-dev,
> > > > it's fully in their hands.
> > > >
> > > > Cheers,
> > > >
> > > > Colin
> > > >
> > > > Ros-dev mailing list
> > > > [e-mail]
> > > > http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> > > >
> > > > Ros-dev mailing list
> > > > [e-mail]
> > > > http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> > >
> > > Ros-dev mailing list
> > > [e-mail]
> > > http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> >
> > Ros-dev mailing list
> > [e-mail]
> > http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>
> Ros-dev mailing list
> [e-mail]
> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev

[Michael Fritscher]

Too many chans will clutter it, in the end the devs will have to join 10
chans. The chans aren't that high-traffic ones.

I think we should yust try to do a -m and see what happens.
> Yes, that's a better idea. #reactos-gsoc
>
> On Fri, Mar 24, 2017 at 6:53 PM, Alex Ionescu [e-mail] wrote:
> > I don't agree. Maintain the auto-voice lists and get someone in charge
> > of
> > operations, like I used to be for many years on IRC.
> >
> > Instead, why not create a #reactos-gsoc or something?
> >
> > Best regards,
> > Alex Ionescu
> >
> > On Fri, Mar 24, 2017 at 11:19 AM, Mark Jansen [e-mail]
> > wrote:
> > > We can always try it out?
> > > If it doesnt work, restoring it is a simple as setting a flag on the
> > > channel.
> > >
> > > On 24 March 2017 at 16:31, David Quintana (gigaherz)
> > > [e-mail]
> > > wrote:
> > > > I disagree -- if we can be firm about the channel being only for
> > >
> > > development
> > > > talk, things should remain mostly as they are now.
> > > >
> > > > In any community, there's inevitably going to be idle talk, offtopic
> > > > conversations, etc. If you only have ONE place to talk in, all those
> > >
> > > thigns
> > > > are going to be mixed in with actual dev talk, but if you have clear
> > >
> > > rooms
> > > > set for each thing, the majority of people will be happy to leave all
> > >
> > > the
> > > > offtopic talk to the main channel, and dev talk to the dev channel.
> > > >
> > > > It works for plenty other projects and communities so there's no
> > >
> > > reason
> > > to
> > > > be pessimistic and think that "our idiots are worse". It's simply not
> > >
> > > true.
> > > > I vote for trying, and we can always put back the +m if things get
> > >
> > > out
> > > of
> > > > hand.
> > > >
> > > > On 24 March 2017 at 16:13, Hermès BÉLUSCA-MAÏTO
> > >
> > > [e-mail]
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > I don’t approve the idea. The fact is that if the devs quit
> > >
> > > originally
> > > > > #reactos, it’s because it was generally too noisy, etc… . If we
> > >
> > > remove
> > > the
> > > > > moderation irc bit in #reactos-dev, you may expect the same
> > >
> > > phenomenon
> > > to
> > > > > occur in #reactos-dev too.
> > > > >
> > > > > De : Ros-dev [mailto:[e-mail]] De la part de
> > >
> > > David
> > > > > Quintana (gigaherz)
> > > > > Envoyé : vendredi 24 mars 2017 11:35
> > > > > À : ReactOS Development List
> > > > > Objet : Re: [ros-dev] Opening up #reactos-dev to the public
> > > > >
> > > > > I approve the idea.
> > > > >
> > > > > On 24 March 2017 at 11:21, Colin Finck [e-mail] wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi all!
> > > > >
> > > > > As you all know, our #reactos-dev IRC channel has been a moderated
> > >
> > > IRC
> > > > > channel for decades, and only operators (devs) and voiced people can
> > > > > talk. While we always tried to keep discussions dev-related there,
> > >
> > > no
> > > > > topic has ever been enforced on #reactos. The result is that I see a
> > > > > notable number of developers only on #reactos-dev these days.
> > > > >
> > > > > This is a pretty bad situation! Emerging developers hardly have a
> > >
> > > way
> > > to
> > > > > interact with all existing devs on IRC. Often enough, legitimate
> > > > > questions from them remain unanswered on #reactos. Moreover, we
> > >
> > > don't
> > > > > maintain the list of voiced people thoroughly, so even some
> > >
> > > contributors
> > > > > have to ask for temporary voice on #reactos-dev.
> > > > >
> > > > > Keep in mind that we're currently in the GSoC phase where students
> > >
> > > shall
> > > > > submit their proposals and get in touch with the developers.
> > > > > How are they going to do this on IRC if #reactos-dev continues to be
> > >
> > > an
> > > > > exclusive club?
> > > > >
> > > > > Because of these reasons, I'm proposing to remove the moderation bit
> > >
> > > on
> > > > > #reactos-dev and let everybody talk there.
> > > > > Its development topic should be enforced though! As soon as people
> > >
> > > get
> > > > > too off-topic, they should be directed to #reactos and kicked if
> > >
> > > nothing
> > > > > else helps. Given that all devs are already operators on
> > >
> > > #reactos-dev,
> > > > > it's fully in their hands.
> > > > >
> > > > > Cheers,
> > > > >
> > > > > Colin
> > > > >
> > > > > Ros-dev mailing list
> > > > > [e-mail]
> > > > > http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> > > > >
> > > > > Ros-dev mailing list
> > > > > [e-mail]
> > > > > http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> > > >
> > > > Ros-dev mailing list
> > > > [e-mail]
> > > > http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> > >
> > > Ros-dev mailing list
> > > [e-mail]
> > > http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> >
> > Ros-dev mailing list
> > [e-mail]
> > http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>
> Ros-dev mailing list
> [e-mail]
> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev

[David Quintana (gigaherz)]

I don't see any usefulness in a #reactos-gsoc. It would isolate the gsoc
people, rather than help them integrate into the team. Remember Google
isn't just giving projects some free labor, the goal is to introduce new
devs into the communities with the idea of them remaining in those
communities. So being in the main channels should be part of the goal of
gsoc.

On 25 March 2017 at 08:53, Michael Fritscher [e-mail] wrote:
> Too many chans will clutter it, in the end the devs will have to join 10
> chans. The chans aren't that high-traffic ones.
>
> I think we should yust try to do a -m and see what happens.
> > Yes, that's a better idea. #reactos-gsoc
> >
> > On Fri, Mar 24, 2017 at 6:53 PM, Alex Ionescu [e-mail]
>
> wrote:
> > > I don't agree. Maintain the auto-voice lists and get someone in charge
> > > of
> > > operations, like I used to be for many years on IRC.
> > >
> > > Instead, why not create a #reactos-gsoc or something?
> > >
> > > Best regards,
> > > Alex Ionescu
> > >
> > > On Fri, Mar 24, 2017 at 11:19 AM, Mark Jansen <[e-mail]
> > > wrote:
> > > > We can always try it out?
> > > > If it doesnt work, restoring it is a simple as setting a flag on the
> > > > channel.
> > > >
> > > > On 24 March 2017 at 16:31, David Quintana (gigaherz)
> > > > [e-mail]
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > I disagree -- if we can be firm about the channel being only for
> > > >
> > > > development
> > > > > talk, things should remain mostly as they are now.
> > > > >
> > > > > In any community, there's inevitably going to be idle talk, offtopic
> > > > > conversations, etc. If you only have ONE place to talk in, all those
> > > >
> > > > thigns
> > > > > are going to be mixed in with actual dev talk, but if you have clear
> > > >
> > > > rooms
> > > > > set for each thing, the majority of people will be happy to leave all
> > > >
> > > > the
> > > > > offtopic talk to the main channel, and dev talk to the dev channel.
> > > > >
> > > > > It works for plenty other projects and communities so there's no
> > > >
> > > > reason
> > > > to
> > > > > be pessimistic and think that "our idiots are worse". It's simply not
> > > >
> > > > true.
> > > > > I vote for trying, and we can always put back the +m if things get
> > > >
> > > > out
> > > > of
> > > > > hand.
> > > > >
> > > > > On 24 March 2017 at 16:13, Hermès BÉLUSCA-MAà TO
> > > >
> > > > [e-mail]
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > I don’t approve the idea. The fact is that if the devs quit
> > > >
> > > > originally
> > > > > > #reactos, it’s because it was generally too noisy, etc… . If we
> > > >
> > > > remove
> > > > the
> > > > > > moderation irc bit in #reactos-dev, you may expect the same
> > > >
> > > > phenomenon
> > > > to
> > > > > > occur in #reactos-dev too.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > De : Ros-dev [mailto:[e-mail]] De la part de
> > > >
> > > > David
> > > > > > Quintana (gigaherz)
> > > > > > Envoyé : vendredi 24 mars 2017 11:35
> > > > > > À : ReactOS Development List
> > > > > > Objet : Re: [ros-dev] Opening up #reactos-dev to the public
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I approve the idea.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On 24 March 2017 at 11:21, Colin Finck [e-mail] wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hi all!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > As you all know, our #reactos-dev IRC channel has been a moderated
> > > >
> > > > IRC
> > > > > > channel for decades, and only operators (devs) and voiced people can
> > > > > > talk. While we always tried to keep discussions dev-related there,
> > > >
> > > > no
> > > > > > topic has ever been enforced on #reactos. The result is that I see a
> > > > > > notable number of developers only on #reactos-dev these days.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This is a pretty bad situation! Emerging developers hardly have a
> > > >
> > > > way
> > > > to
> > > > > > interact with all existing devs on IRC. Often enough, legitimate
> > > > > > questions from them remain unanswered on #reactos. Moreover, we
> > > >
> > > > don't
> > > > > > maintain the list of voiced people thoroughly, so even some
> > > >
> > > > contributors
> > > > > > have to ask for temporary voice on #reactos-dev.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Keep in mind that we're currently in the GSoC phase where students
> > > >
> > > > shall
> > > > > > submit their proposals and get in touch with the developers.
> > > > > > How are they going to do this on IRC if #reactos-dev continues to be
> > > >
> > > > an
> > > > > > exclusive club?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Because of these reasons, I'm proposing to remove the moderation bit
> > > >
> > > > on
> > > > > > #reactos-dev and let everybody talk there.
> > > > > > Its development topic should be enforced though! As soon as people
> > > >
> > > > get
> > > > > > too off-topic, they should be directed to #reactos and kicked if
> > > >
> > > > nothing
> > > > > > else helps. Given that all devs are already operators on
> > > >
> > > > #reactos-dev,
> > > > > > it's fully in their hands.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Cheers,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Colin
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Ros-dev mailing list
> > > > > > [e-mail]
> > > > > > http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Ros-dev mailing list
> > > > > > [e-mail]
> > > > > > http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> > > > >
> > > > > Ros-dev mailing list
> > > > > [e-mail]
> > > > > http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> > > >
> > > > Ros-dev mailing list
> > > > [e-mail]
> > > > http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> > >
> > > Ros-dev mailing list
> > > [e-mail]
> > > http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> >
> > Ros-dev mailing list
> > [e-mail]
> > http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>
> Ros-dev mailing list
> [e-mail]
> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev

[Robert Naumann]

There should simply be more devs in #reactos. Some are, but many are not.
Everyone of us is able to give voice to newbies and direct dev related
conversations to the dev channel. When we open this chan to the public we
could instead remove it and do everything via #reactos.

Am 25.03.2017 13:33 schrieb "David Quintana (gigaherz)" <[e-mail]
> :
> I don't see any usefulness in a #reactos-gsoc. It would isolate the gsoc
> people, rather than help them integrate into the team. Remember Google
> isn't just giving projects some free labor, the goal is to introduce new
> devs into the communities with the idea of them remaining in those
> communities. So being in the main channels should be part of the goal of
> gsoc.
>
> On 25 March 2017 at 08:53, Michael Fritscher [e-mail]
> wrote:
> > Too many chans will clutter it, in the end the devs will have to join 10
> > chans. The chans aren't that high-traffic ones.
> >
> > I think we should yust try to do a -m and see what happens.
> > > Yes, that's a better idea. #reactos-gsoc
> > >
> > > On Fri, Mar 24, 2017 at 6:53 PM, Alex Ionescu [e-mail]
> >
> > wrote:
> > > > I don't agree. Maintain the auto-voice lists and get someone in charge
> > > > of
> > > > operations, like I used to be for many years on IRC.
> > > >
> > > > Instead, why not create a #reactos-gsoc or something?
> > > >
> > > > Best regards,
> > > > Alex Ionescu
> > > >
> > > > On Fri, Mar 24, 2017 at 11:19 AM, Mark Jansen <
> >
> > [e-mail]>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > We can always try it out?
> > > > > If it doesnt work, restoring it is a simple as setting a flag on the
> > > > > channel.
> > > > >
> > > > > On 24 March 2017 at 16:31, David Quintana (gigaherz)
> > > > > [e-mail]
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > I disagree -- if we can be firm about the channel being only for
> > > > >
> > > > > development
> > > > > > talk, things should remain mostly as they are now.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > In any community, there's inevitably going to be idle talk, offtopic
> > > > > > conversations, etc. If you only have ONE place to talk in, all those
> > > > >
> > > > > thigns
> > > > > > are going to be mixed in with actual dev talk, but if you have clear
> > > > >
> > > > > rooms
> > > > > > set for each thing, the majority of people will be happy to leave
> >
> > all
> > > > > the
> > > > > > offtopic talk to the main channel, and dev talk to the dev channel.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It works for plenty other projects and communities so there's no
> > > > >
> > > > > reason
> > > > > to
> > > > > > be pessimistic and think that "our idiots are worse". It's simply
> >
> > not
> > > > > true.
> > > > > > I vote for trying, and we can always put back the +m if things get
> > > > >
> > > > > out
> > > > > of
> > > > > > hand.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On 24 March 2017 at 16:13, Hermès BÉLUSCA-MAà TO
> > > > >
> > > > > [e-mail]
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I don’t approve the idea. The fact is that if the devs quit
> > > > >
> > > > > originally
> > > > > > > #reactos, it’s because it was generally too noisy, etc… . If we
> > > > >
> > > > > remove
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > moderation irc bit in #reactos-dev, you may expect the same
> > > > >
> > > > > phenomenon
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > occur in #reactos-dev too.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > De : Ros-dev [mailto:[e-mail]] De la part de
> > > > >
> > > > > David
> > > > > > > Quintana (gigaherz)
> > > > > > > Envoyé : vendredi 24 mars 2017 11:35
> > > > > > > À : ReactOS Development List
> > > > > > > Objet : Re: [ros-dev] Opening up #reactos-dev to the public
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I approve the idea.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On 24 March 2017 at 11:21, Colin Finck [e-mail] wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Hi all!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > As you all know, our #reactos-dev IRC channel has been a moderated
> > > > >
> > > > > IRC
> > > > > > > channel for decades, and only operators (devs) and voiced people
> >
> > can
> > > > > > > talk. While we always tried to keep discussions dev-related there,
> > > > >
> > > > > no
> > > > > > > topic has ever been enforced on #reactos. The result is that I see
> >
> > a
> > > > > > > notable number of developers only on #reactos-dev these days.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > This is a pretty bad situation! Emerging developers hardly have a
> > > > >
> > > > > way
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > interact with all existing devs on IRC. Often enough, legitimate
> > > > > > > questions from them remain unanswered on #reactos. Moreover, we
> > > > >
> > > > > don't
> > > > > > > maintain the list of voiced people thoroughly, so even some
> > > > >
> > > > > contributors
> > > > > > > have to ask for temporary voice on #reactos-dev.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Keep in mind that we're currently in the GSoC phase where students
> > > > >
> > > > > shall
> > > > > > > submit their proposals and get in touch with the developers.
> > > > > > > How are they going to do this on IRC if #reactos-dev continues to
> >
> > be
> > > > > an
> > > > > > > exclusive club?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Because of these reasons, I'm proposing to remove the moderation
> >
> > bit
> > > > > on
> > > > > > > #reactos-dev and let everybody talk there.
> > > > > > > Its development topic should be enforced though! As soon as people
> > > > >
> > > > > get
> > > > > > > too off-topic, they should be directed to #reactos and kicked if
> > > > >
> > > > > nothing
> > > > > > > else helps. Given that all devs are already operators on
> > > > >
> > > > > #reactos-dev,
> > > > > > > it's fully in their hands.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Cheers,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Colin
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > Ros-dev mailing list
> > > > > > > [e-mail]
> > > > > > > http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > Ros-dev mailing list
> > > > > > > [e-mail]
> > > > > > > http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Ros-dev mailing list
> > > > > > [e-mail]
> > > > > > http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> > > > >
> > > > > Ros-dev mailing list
> > > > > [e-mail]
> > > > > http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> > > >
> > > > Ros-dev mailing list
> > > > [e-mail]
> > > > http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> > >
> > > Ros-dev mailing list
> > > [e-mail]
> > > http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> >
> > Ros-dev mailing list
> > [e-mail]
> > http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>
> Ros-dev mailing list
> [e-mail]
> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev

[Mark Jansen]

In that case I can stop paying attention to jira, since the perception
is that we do not care anyway.
This will free up a reasonable amount of time that I can spend on
parts of reactos that only i care about.

On 25 March 2017 at 14:01, Alexander Rechitskiy [e-mail] wrote:
> “Talk is cheap. Show me the code.” ― Linus Torvalds
>
> Speed of development of ReactOS is really slow. Developers do not care even
> about reports in JIRA. This discussion is sensles and useless because
> regardless of the it's result nothing will be better in ReactOS.
>
> 25.03.2017, 15:52, "Robert Naumann" [e-mail]:
>
> There should simply be more devs in #reactos. Some are, but many are not.
> Everyone of us is able to give voice to newbies and direct dev related
> conversations to the dev channel. When we open this chan to the public we
> could instead remove it and do everything via #reactos.
>
> Am 25.03.2017 13:33 schrieb "David Quintana (gigaherz)"
> [e-mail]:
>
> I don't see any usefulness in a #reactos-gsoc. It would isolate the gsoc
> people, rather than help them integrate into the team. Remember Google isn't
> just giving projects some free labor, the goal is to introduce new devs into
> the communities with the idea of them remaining in those communities. So
> being in the main channels should be part of the goal of gsoc.
>
> On 25 March 2017 at 08:53, Michael Fritscher [e-mail] wrote:
>
> Too many chans will clutter it, in the end the devs will have to join 10
> chans. The chans aren't that high-traffic ones.
>
> I think we should yust try to do a -m and see what happens.
> > Yes, that's a better idea. #reactos-gsoc
> >
> > On Fri, Mar 24, 2017 at 6:53 PM, Alex Ionescu [e-mail] wrote:
> > > I don't agree. Maintain the auto-voice lists and get someone in charge
> > > of
> > > operations, like I used to be for many years on IRC.
> > >
> > > Instead, why not create a #reactos-gsoc or something?
> > >
> > > Best regards,
> > > Alex Ionescu
> > >
> > > On Fri, Mar 24, 2017 at 11:19 AM, Mark Jansen [e-mail]
> > > wrote:
> > > > We can always try it out?
> > > > If it doesnt work, restoring it is a simple as setting a flag on the
> > > > channel.
> > > >
> > > > On 24 March 2017 at 16:31, David Quintana (gigaherz)
> > > > [e-mail]
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > I disagree -- if we can be firm about the channel being only for
> > > >
> > > > development
> > > > > talk, things should remain mostly as they are now.
> > > > >
> > > > > In any community, there's inevitably going to be idle talk, offtopic
> > > > > conversations, etc. If you only have ONE place to talk in, all those
> > > >
> > > > thigns
> > > > > are going to be mixed in with actual dev talk, but if you have clear
> > > >
> > > > rooms
> > > > > set for each thing, the majority of people will be happy to leave all
> > > >
> > > > the
> > > > > offtopic talk to the main channel, and dev talk to the dev channel.
> > > > >
> > > > > It works for plenty other projects and communities so there's no
> > > >
> > > > reason
> > > > to
> > > > > be pessimistic and think that "our idiots are worse". It's simply not
> > > >
> > > > true.
> > > > > I vote for trying, and we can always put back the +m if things get
> > > >
> > > > out
> > > > of
> > > > > hand.
> > > > >
> > > > > On 24 March 2017 at 16:13, Hermès BÉLUSCA-MAà TO
> > > >
> > > > [e-mail]
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > I don’t approve the idea. The fact is that if the devs quit
> > > >
> > > > originally
> > > > > > #reactos, it’s because it was generally too noisy, etc… . If we
> > > >
> > > > remove
> > > > the
> > > > > > moderation irc bit in #reactos-dev, you may expect the same
> > > >
> > > > phenomenon
> > > > to
> > > > > > occur in #reactos-dev too.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > De : Ros-dev [mailto:[e-mail]] De la part de
> > > >
> > > > David
> > > > > > Quintana (gigaherz)
> > > > > > Envoyé : vendredi 24 mars 2017 11:35
> > > > > > À : ReactOS Development List
> > > > > > Objet : Re: [ros-dev] Opening up #reactos-dev to the public
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I approve the idea.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On 24 March 2017 at 11:21, Colin Finck [e-mail] wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hi all!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > As you all know, our #reactos-dev IRC channel has been a moderated
> > > >
> > > > IRC
> > > > > > channel for decades, and only operators (devs) and voiced people can
> > > > > > talk. While we always tried to keep discussions dev-related there,
> > > >
> > > > no
> > > > > > topic has ever been enforced on #reactos. The result is that I see a
> > > > > > notable number of developers only on #reactos-dev these days.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This is a pretty bad situation! Emerging developers hardly have a
> > > >
> > > > way
> > > > to
> > > > > > interact with all existing devs on IRC. Often enough, legitimate
> > > > > > questions from them remain unanswered on #reactos. Moreover, we
> > > >
> > > > don't
> > > > > > maintain the list of voiced people thoroughly, so even some
> > > >
> > > > contributors
> > > > > > have to ask for temporary voice on #reactos-dev.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Keep in mind that we're currently in the GSoC phase where students
> > > >
> > > > shall
> > > > > > submit their proposals and get in touch with the developers.
> > > > > > How are they going to do this on IRC if #reactos-dev continues to be
> > > >
> > > > an
> > > > > > exclusive club?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Because of these reasons, I'm proposing to remove the moderation bit
> > > >
> > > > on
> > > > > > #reactos-dev and let everybody talk there.
> > > > > > Its development topic should be enforced though! As soon as people
> > > >
> > > > get
> > > > > > too off-topic, they should be directed to #reactos and kicked if
> > > >
> > > > nothing
> > > > > > else helps. Given that all devs are already operators on
> > > >
> > > > #reactos-dev,
> > > > > > it's fully in their hands.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Cheers,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Colin
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Ros-dev mailing list
> > > > > > [e-mail]
> > > > > > http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Ros-dev mailing list
> > > > > > [e-mail]
> > > > > > http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> > > > >
> > > > > Ros-dev mailing list
> > > > > [e-mail]
> > > > > http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> > > >
> > > > Ros-dev mailing list
> > > > [e-mail]
> > > > http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> > >
> > > Ros-dev mailing list
> > > [e-mail]
> > > http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> >
> > Ros-dev mailing list
> > [e-mail]
> > http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>
> Ros-dev mailing list
> [e-mail]
> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>
> Ros-dev mailing list
> [e-mail]
> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>
> ,
>
> Ros-dev mailing list
> [e-mail]
> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>
> --
> Best regards,
>
> Ros-dev mailing list
> [e-mail]
> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev

[Giannis Adamopoulos]

Right, show me the code. AKA we accept patches Alexander.
Regarding #reactos-dev, I'm afraid that if we open it to everyone we will see the endless noise from jira to flood #reactos-dev.

ReactOS Development List [e-mail] wrote on Sat, March 25th, 2017, 2:01 PM:
> “Talk is cheap. Show me the code.” ― Linus Torvalds
>
> Speed of development of ReactOS is really slow. Developers do not care even about reports in JIRA. This discussion is sensles and useless because regardless of the it's result nothing will be better in ReactOS.
>
> 25.03.2017, 15:52, "Robert Naumann" [e-mail]:
> There should simply be more devs in #reactos. Some are, but many are not. Everyone of us is able to give voice to newbies and direct dev related conversations to the dev channel. When we open this chan to the public we could instead remove it and do everything via #reactos.
>  Am 25.03.2017 13:33 schrieb "David Quintana (gigaherz)" [e-mail]:I don't see any usefulness in a #reactos-gsoc. It would isolate the gsoc people, rather than help them integrate into the team. Remember Google isn't just giving projects some free labor, the goal is to introduce new devs into the communities with the idea of them remaining in those communities. So being in the main channels should be part of the goal of gsoc.
>
> On 25 March 2017 at 08:53, Michael Fritscher [e-mail] wrote:Too many chans will clutter it, in the end the devs will have to join 10
> chans. The chans aren't that high-traffic ones.
>
> I think we should yust try to do a -m and see what happens.
> > Yes, that's a better idea. #reactos-gsoc
> >
> > On Fri, Mar 24, 2017 at 6:53 PM, Alex Ionescu [e-mail] wrote:
> > > I don't agree. Maintain the auto-voice lists and get someone in charge
> > > of
> > > operations, like I used to be for many years on IRC.
> > >
> > > Instead, why not create a #reactos-gsoc or something?
> > >
> > > Best regards,
> > > Alex Ionescu
> > >
> > > On Fri, Mar 24, 2017 at 11:19 AM, Mark Jansen [e-mail]
> > > wrote:
> > > > We can always try it out?
> > > > If it doesnt work, restoring it is a simple as setting a flag on the
> > > > channel.
> > > >
> > > > On 24 March 2017 at 16:31, David Quintana (gigaherz)
> > > > [e-mail]
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > I disagree -- if we can be firm about the channel being only for
> > > >
> > > > development
> > > > > talk, things should remain mostly as they are now.
> > > > >
> > > > > In any community, there's inevitably going to be idle talk, offtopic
> > > > > conversations, etc. If you only have ONE place to talk in, all those
> > > >
> > > > thigns
> > > > > are going to be mixed in with actual dev talk, but if you have clear
> > > >
> > > > rooms
> > > > > set for each thing, the majority of people will be happy to leave all
> > > >
> > > > the
> > > > > offtopic talk to the main channel, and dev talk to the dev channel.
> > > > >
> > > > > It works for plenty other projects and communities so there's no
> > > >
> > > > reason
> > > > to
> > > > > be pessimistic and think that "our idiots are worse". It's simply not
> > > >
> > > > true.
> > > > > I vote for trying, and we can always put back the +m if things get
> > > >
> > > > out
> > > > of
> > > > > hand.
> > > > > On 24 March 2017 at 16:13, Hermès BÉLUSCA-MAà TO
> > > >
> > > > [e-mail]
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > I don’t approve the idea. The fact is that if the devs quit
> > > >
> > > > originally
> > > > > > #reactos, it’s because it was generally too noisy, etc… . If we
> > > >
> > > > remove
> > > > the
> > > > > > moderation irc bit in #reactos-dev, you may expect the same
> > > >
> > > > phenomenon
> > > > to
> > > > > > occur in #reactos-dev too.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > De : Ros-dev [mailto:[e-mail]] De la part de
> > > >
> > > > David
> > > > > > Quintana (gigaherz)
> > > > > > Envoyé : vendredi 24 mars 2017 11:35
> > > > > > À : ReactOS Development List>>> >> Objet : Re: [ros-dev] Opening up #reactos-dev to the public
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I approve the idea.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On 24 March 2017 at 11:21, Colin Finck [e-mail] wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hi all!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > As you all know, our #reactos-dev IRC channel has been a moderated
> > > >
> > > > IRC
> > > > > > channel for decades, and only operators (devs) and voiced people can
> > > > > > talk. While we always tried to keep discussions dev-related there,
> > > >
> > > > no
> > > > > > topic has ever been enforced on #reactos. The result is that I see a
> > > > > > notable number of developers only on #reactos-dev these days.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This is a pretty bad situation! Emerging developers hardly have a
> > > >
> > > > way
> > > > to
> > > > > > interact with all existing devs on IRC. Often enough, legitimate
> > > > > > questions from them remain unanswered on #reactos. Moreover, we
> > > >
> > > > don't
> > > > > > maintain the list of voiced people thoroughly, so even some
> > > >
> > > > contributors
> > > > > > have to ask for temporary voice on #reactos-dev.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Keep in mind that we're currently in the GSoC phase where students
> > > >
> > > > shall
> > > > > > submit their proposals and get in touch with the developers.
> > > > > > How are they going to do this on IRC if #reactos-dev continues to be
> > > >
> > > > an
> > > > > > exclusive club?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Because of these reasons, I'm proposing to remove the moderation bit
> > > >
> > > > on
> > > > > > #reactos-dev and let everybody talk there.
> > > > > > Its development topic should be enforced though! As soon as people
> > > >
> > > > get
> > > > > > too off-topic, they should be directed to #reactos and kicked if
> > > >
> > > > nothing
> > > > > > else helps. Given that all devs are already operators on
> > > >
> > > > #reactos-dev,
> > > > > > it's fully in their hands.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Cheers,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Colin
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Ros-dev mailing list
> > > > > > [e-mail]
> > > > > > http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Ros-dev mailing list
> > > > > > [e-mail]
> > > > > > http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> > > > >
> > > > > Ros-dev mailing list
> > > > > [e-mail]
> > > > > http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> > > >
> > > > Ros-dev mailing list
> > > > [e-mail]
> > > > http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> > >
> > > Ros-dev mailing list
> > > [e-mail]
> > > http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> >
> > Ros-dev mailing list
> > [e-mail]
> > http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>
> Ros-dev mailing list
> [e-mail]
> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>
> Ros-dev mailing list
> [e-mail]
> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>
> ,_______________________________________________
> Ros-dev mailing list
> [e-mail]
> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev

[David Quintana (gigaherz)]

You HAVE to understand that everyone is contributing what they think they
can afford to contribute. No matter how much it may be "best" if they used
their time on something else, they ARE contributors, not slaves, so they
are free to work on what they want. The sooner you accept that, the better.

On 25 March 2017 at 19:42, Alexander Rechitskiy [e-mail] wrote:
> Giannis
>
> Project also accepts bug-reports, this important part of workflow, and
> this is the place where I am contributor #2
> https://jira.reactos.org/secure/ConfigureReport.jspa?
> projectOrFilterId=project-10005&statistictype=reporter&
> selectedProjectId=10005&reportKey=com.atlassian.jira.
> jira-core-reports-plugin%3Apie-report&Next=Next
>
> 25.03.2017, 18:32, "Giannis Adamopoulos" <[e-mail]
> > :
>
> Right, show me the code. AKA we accept patches Alexander.
> Regarding #reactos-dev, I'm afraid that if we open it to everyone we will
> see the endless noise from jira to flood #reactos-dev.
>
> ReactOS Development List [e-mail] wrote on Sat, March 25th,
> 2017, 2:01 PM:
>
> “Talk is cheap. Show me the code.” ― Linus Torvalds
>
> Speed of development of ReactOS is really slow. Developers do not care
> even about reports in JIRA. This discussion is sensles and useless because
> regardless of the it's result nothing will be better in ReactOS.
>
> 25.03.2017, 15:52, "Robert Naumann" [e-mail]:
>  There should simply be more devs in #reactos. Some are, but many are not.
> Everyone of us is able to give voice to newbies and direct dev related
> conversations to the dev channel. When we open this chan to the public we
> could instead remove it and do everything via #reactos.
>   Am 25.03.2017 13:33 schrieb "David Quintana (gigaherz)" <
> [e-mail]>:I don't see any usefulness in a #reactos-gsoc. It
> would isolate the gsoc people, rather than help them integrate into the
> team. Remember Google isn't just giving projects some free labor, the goal
> is to introduce new devs into the communities with the idea of them
> remaining in those communities. So being in the main channels should be
> part of the goal of gsoc.
>
> On 25 March 2017 at 08:53, Michael Fritscher [e-mail]
> wrote:Too many chans will clutter it, in the end the devs will have to join
> 10
>  chans. The chans aren't that high-traffic ones.
>
> I think we should yust try to do a -m and see what happens.
> > Yes, that's a better idea. #reactos-gsoc
> >
> > On Fri, Mar 24, 2017 at 6:53 PM, Alex Ionescu [e-mail]
>
> wrote:
> > > I don't agree. Maintain the auto-voice lists and get someone in charge
> > > of
> > > operations, like I used to be for many years on IRC.
> > >
> > > Instead, why not create a #reactos-gsoc or something?
> > >
> > > Best regards,
> > > Alex Ionescu
> > >
> > > On Fri, Mar 24, 2017 at 11:19 AM, Mark Jansen <
>
> [e-mail]>
> > > wrote:
> > > > We can always try it out?
> > > > If it doesnt work, restoring it is a simple as setting a flag on the
> > > > channel.
> > > >
> > > > On 24 March 2017 at 16:31, David Quintana (gigaherz)
> > > > [e-mail]
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > I disagree -- if we can be firm about the channel being only for
> > > >
> > > > development
> > > > > talk, things should remain mostly as they are now.
> > > > >
> > > > > In any community, there's inevitably going to be idle talk, offtopic
> > > > > conversations, etc. If you only have ONE place to talk in, all those
> > > >
> > > > thigns
> > > > > are going to be mixed in with actual dev talk, but if you have clear
> > > >
> > > > rooms
> > > > > set for each thing, the majority of people will be happy to leave
>
> all
> > > > the
> > > > > offtopic talk to the main channel, and dev talk to the dev channel.
> > > > >
> > > > > It works for plenty other projects and communities so there's no
> > > >
> > > > reason
> > > > to
> > > > > be pessimistic and think that "our idiots are worse". It's simply
>
> not
> > > > true.
> > > > > I vote for trying, and we can always put back the +m if things get
> > > >
> > > > out
> > > > of
> > > > > hand.
> > > > > On 24 March 2017 at 16:13, Hermès BÉLUSCA-MAà TO
> > > >
> > > > [e-mail]
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > I don’t approve the idea. The fact is that if the devs quit
> > > >
> > > > originally
> > > > > > #reactos, it’s because it was generally too noisy, etc… . If we
> > > >
> > > > remove
> > > > the
> > > > > > moderation irc bit in #reactos-dev, you may expect the same
> > > >
> > > > phenomenon
> > > > to
> > > > > > occur in #reactos-dev too.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > De : Ros-dev [mailto:[e-mail]] De la part de
> > > >
> > > > David
> > > > > > Quintana (gigaherz)
> > > > > > Envoyé : vendredi 24 mars 2017 11:35
> > > > > > À : ReactOS Development List>>> >> Objet : Re: [ros-dev] Opening
>
> up #reactos-dev to the public
> > > > > > I approve the idea.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On 24 March 2017 at 11:21, Colin Finck [e-mail] wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hi all!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > As you all know, our #reactos-dev IRC channel has been a moderated
> > > >
> > > > IRC
> > > > > > channel for decades, and only operators (devs) and voiced people
>
> can
> > > > > > talk. While we always tried to keep discussions dev-related there,
> > > >
> > > > no
> > > > > > topic has ever been enforced on #reactos. The result is that I see
>
> a
> > > > > > notable number of developers only on #reactos-dev these days.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This is a pretty bad situation! Emerging developers hardly have a
> > > >
> > > > way
> > > > to
> > > > > > interact with all existing devs on IRC. Often enough, legitimate
> > > > > > questions from them remain unanswered on #reactos. Moreover, we
> > > >
> > > > don't
> > > > > > maintain the list of voiced people thoroughly, so even some
> > > >
> > > > contributors
> > > > > > have to ask for temporary voice on #reactos-dev.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Keep in mind that we're currently in the GSoC phase where students
> > > >
> > > > shall
> > > > > > submit their proposals and get in touch with the developers.
> > > > > > How are they going to do this on IRC if #reactos-dev continues to
>
> be
> > > > an
> > > > > > exclusive club?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Because of these reasons, I'm proposing to remove the moderation
>
> bit
> > > > on
> > > > > > #reactos-dev and let everybody talk there.
> > > > > > Its development topic should be enforced though! As soon as people
> > > >
> > > > get
> > > > > > too off-topic, they should be directed to #reactos and kicked if
> > > >
> > > > nothing
> > > > > > else helps. Given that all devs are already operators on
> > > >
> > > > #reactos-dev,
> > > > > > it's fully in their hands.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Cheers,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Colin
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Ros-dev mailing list
> > > > > > [e-mail]
> > > > > > http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Ros-dev mailing list
> > > > > > [e-mail]
> > > > > > http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> > > > >
> > > > > Ros-dev mailing list
> > > > > [e-mail]
> > > > > http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> > > >
> > > > Ros-dev mailing list
> > > > [e-mail]
> > > > http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> > >
> > > Ros-dev mailing list
> > > [e-mail]
> > > http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> >
> > Ros-dev mailing list
> > [e-mail]
> > http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>
> Ros-dev mailing list
>  [e-mail]
>  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>
> Ros-dev mailing list
>  [e-mail]
>  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>
> ,_______________________________________________
>  Ros-dev mailing list
>  [e-mail]
>  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>
> Ros-dev mailing list
> [e-mail]
> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>
> --
> Best regards,
>
> Ros-dev mailing list
> [e-mail]
> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev

[Sylvain Deverre]

Hello,

To be clear, ReactOS doesn't have enough donations to pay devs living
in countries where life is expensive (and can't afford to work as full-
time dev for the project), along with maintaining infrastructure
(paying servers to run JIRA, the forums, the buildbots and slavebots
for the testsuite) to allow the project to continue.

Then, I don't understand the issue with Jira, as devs keep an eye on
JIRA (that's another story for the forum, which is not really supposed
to serve as bugtracker by the way). Also, keep in mind that a lot of
issues are very *complex* and sometimes need huge architectural changes
which are not documented. For instance, a lot of theming issues
couldn't be resolved until Giannis and I worked on an implementation of
SxS window class redirection for ReactOS, which takes months (which
happen in several places, notably win32 subsystem, comctl32 and even
ntdll).

So devs do what they can do according to life constraints, skills and
time they can allocate for the project. By the way, if you want the
project to succeed, why not learning C and becoming a paid developer ?
:)

Le samedi 25 mars 2017 à 23:17 +0300, Alexander Rechitskiy a écrit :
> My original claim was that discussion about opening #reactos-dev is
> useless
> because:
> Devs intentionally not pay attention to #reactos
> They even intentionally not pay attention to forum and JIRA
>
> So if we open #reactos-dev the dev will start ignore #reactos-dev
> too.
>  
> So the real problem is the devs intentional detachment and
> indifference and not the problem of #reactos-dev
>  
> You spend time in useless discussion instead of facing the real
> problem.
>  
> Also even you treat ReactOS as a hobby, you should not treat it as a
> toy. Too many people have already set their hopes for ReactOS. We
> should not dissappoint them by leaving the job half way again and
> again. ReactOS will not become more mature thing, while you still
> consider it just as a pet.  It really may be mature, but with that
> attitude it is not possible. We should take some responsibility. The
> sooner you accept that, the better.
>  
> We have the paradoxical situation.  ReactOS Foundation has money for
> contracts, but nobody accepts them. Unstead the majority of
> participants reported the excuses, that they have all the time spent
> on  REAL work and personal life. And for ReactOS there is no time
> left. Do not you think that there is a self-deception here? Why not
> combine a hobby and earning money? Why not work for the ReactOS
> Foundation? ReactOS, with the right approach taken, may grow into
> serious buisnes.
>  
>  
>  
> 25.03.2017, 22:23, "David Quintana (gigaherz)" [e-mail]:
> > You HAVE to understand that everyone is contributing what they
> > think they can afford to contribute. No matter how much it may be
> > "best" if they used their time on something else, they ARE
> > contributors, not slaves, so they are free to work on what they
> > want. The sooner you accept that, the better.
> >
> > On 25 March 2017 at 19:42, Alexander Rechitskiy <art1st-tm@yandex.r
> > u> wrote:
> > Giannis
> >  
> > Project also accepts bug-reports, this important part of workflow,
> > and this is the place where I am contributor #2
> > https://jira.reactos.org/secure/ConfigureReport.jspa?projectOrFilte
> > rId=project-
> > 10005&statistictype=reporter&selectedProjectId=10005&reportKey=com.
> > atlassian.jira.jira-core-reports-plugin%3Apie-report&Next=Next
> >  
> > 25.03.2017, 18:32, "Giannis Adamopoulos" <giannis.adamopoulos@react
> > os.org>:
> > > Right, show me the code. AKA we accept patches Alexander.
> > > Regarding #reactos-dev, I'm afraid that if we open it to everyone
> > > we will see the endless noise from jira to flood #reactos-dev.
> > >
> > > ReactOS Development List [e-mail] wrote on Sat,
> > > March 25th, 2017, 2:01 PM:
> > >  “Talk is cheap. Show me the code.” ― Linus Torvalds
> > >
> > > Speed of development of ReactOS is really slow. Developers do
> > > not care even about reports in JIRA. This discussion is sensles
> > > and useless because regardless of the it's result nothing will be
> > > better in ReactOS.
> > >
> > > 25.03.2017, 15:52, "Robert Naumann" [e-mail]:
> > >  There should simply be more devs in #reactos. Some are, but many
> > > are not. Everyone of us is able to give voice to newbies and
> > > direct dev related conversations to the dev channel. When we open
> > > this chan to the public we could instead remove it and do
> > > everything via #reactos.
> > >   Am 25.03.2017 13:33 schrieb "David Quintana (gigaherz)" <gigahe
> > > [e-mail]>:I don't see any usefulness in a #reactos-gsoc. It
> > > would isolate the gsoc people, rather than help them integrate
> > > into the team. Remember Google isn't just giving projects some
> > > free labor, the goal is to introduce new devs into the
> > > communities with the idea of them remaining in those communities.
> > > So being in the main channels should be part of the goal of gsoc.
> > >
> > > On 25 March 2017 at 08:53, Michael Fritscher <michael@fritscher
> > > .net> wrote:Too many chans will clutter it, in the end the devs
> > > will have to join 10
> > >  chans. The chans aren't that high-traffic ones.
> > >
> > > I think we should yust try to do a -m and see what happens.
> > >  > Yes, that's a better idea. #reactos-gsoc
> > >  >
> > >  > On Fri, Mar 24, 2017 at 6:53 PM, Alex Ionescu <ionucu@videotro
> > > n.ca> wrote:
> > >  >
> > >  >> I don't agree. Maintain the auto-voice lists and get someone
> > > in charge
> > >  >> of
> > >  >> operations, like I used to be for many years on IRC.
> > >  >>
> > >  >> Instead, why not create a #reactos-gsoc or something?
> > >  >>
> > >  >> Best regards,
> > >  >> Alex Ionescu
> > >  >>
> > >  >> On Fri, Mar 24, 2017 at 11:19 AM, Mark Jansen <learn0more+ros
> > > @gmail.com>
> > >  >> wrote:
> > >  >>
> > >  >>> We can always try it out?
> > >  >>> If it doesnt work, restoring it is a simple as setting a
> > > flag on the
> > >  >>> channel.
> > >  >>>
> > >  >>> On 24 March 2017 at 16:31, David Quintana (gigaherz)
> > >  >>> [e-mail]
> > >  >>> wrote:
> > >  >>> > I disagree -- if we can be firm about the channel being
> > > only for
> > >  >>> development
> > >  >>> > talk, things should remain mostly as they are now.
> > >  >>> >
> > >  >>> > In any community, there's inevitably going to be idle
> > > talk, offtopic
> > >  >>> > conversations, etc. If you only have ONE place to talk in,
> > > all those
> > >  >>> thigns
> > >  >>> > are going to be mixed in with actual dev talk, but if you
> > > have clear
> > >  >>> rooms
> > >  >>> > set for each thing, the majority of people will be happy
> > > to leave all
> > >  >>> the
> > >  >>> > offtopic talk to the main channel, and dev talk to the dev
> > > channel.
> > >  >>> >
> > >  >>> > It works for plenty other projects and communities so
> > > there's no
> > >  >>> reason
> > >  >>> to
> > >  >>> > be pessimistic and think that "our idiots are worse". It's
> > > simply not
> > >  >>> true.
> > >  >>> >
> > >  >>> > I vote for trying, and we can always put back the +m if
> > > things get
> > >  >>> out
> > >  >>> of
> > >  >>> > hand.
> > >  >>> >
> > >
> > > >>> > On 24 March 2017 at 16:13, Hermès BÉLUSCA-MAà TO
> > >  >>> [e-mail]
> > >  >>> > wrote:
> > >  >>> >>
> > >  >>> >> I don’t approve the idea. The fact is that if the devs
> > > quit
> > >  >>> originally
> > >  >>> >> #reactos, it’s because it was generally too noisy,
> > > etc… . If we
> > >  >>> remove
> > >  >>> the
> > >  >>> >> moderation irc bit in #reactos-dev, you may expect the
> > > same
> > >  >>> phenomenon
> > >  >>> to
> > >  >>> >> occur in #reactos-dev too.
> > >  >>> >>
> > >  >>> >>
> > >  >>> >>
> > >  >>> >> De : Ros-dev [mailto:[e-mail]] De la
> > > part de
> > >  >>> David
> > >  >>> >> Quintana (gigaherz)
> > >  >>> >> Envoyé : vendredi 24 mars 2017 11:35
> > >  >>> >> À : ReactOS Development List>>> >> Objet : Re: [ros-dev] 
> > > Opening up #reactos-dev to the public
> > >  >>> >>
> > >  >>> >>
> > >  >>> >>
> > >  >>> >> I approve the idea.
> > >  >>> >>
> > >  >>> >>
> > >  >>> >>
> > >  >>> >> On 24 March 2017 at 11:21, Colin Finck <[e-mail]
> > > > wrote:
> > >
> > > >>> >>
> > >  >>> >> Hi all!
> > >  >>> >>
> > >  >>> >> As you all know, our #reactos-dev IRC channel has been a
> > > moderated
> > >  >>> IRC
> > >  >>> >> channel for decades, and only operators (devs) and voiced
> > > people can
> > >  >>> >> talk. While we always tried to keep discussions dev-
> > > related there,
> > >  >>> no
> > >  >>> >> topic has ever been enforced on #reactos. The result is
> > > that I see a
> > >  >>> >> notable number of developers only on #reactos-dev these
> > > days.
> > >  >>> >>
> > >  >>> >> This is a pretty bad situation! Emerging developers
> > > hardly have a
> > >  >>> way
> > >  >>> to
> > >  >>> >> interact with all existing devs on IRC. Often enough,
> > > legitimate
> > >  >>> >> questions from them remain unanswered on #reactos.
> > > Moreover, we
> > >  >>> don't
> > >  >>> >> maintain the list of voiced people thoroughly, so even
> > > some
> > >  >>> contributors
> > >  >>> >> have to ask for temporary voice on #reactos-dev.
> > >  >>> >>
> > >  >>> >> Keep in mind that we're currently in the GSoC phase where
> > > students
> > >  >>> shall
> > >  >>> >> submit their proposals and get in touch with the
> > > developers.
> > >  >>> >> How are they going to do this on IRC if #reactos-dev
> > > continues to be
> > >  >>> an
> > >  >>> >> exclusive club?
> > >  >>> >>
> > >  >>> >> Because of these reasons, I'm proposing to remove the
> > > moderation bit
> > >  >>> on
> > >  >>> >> #reactos-dev and let everybody talk there.
> > >  >>> >> Its development topic should be enforced though! As soon
> > > as people
> > >  >>> get
> > >  >>> >> too off-topic, they should be directed to #reactos and
> > > kicked if
> > >  >>> nothing
> > >  >>> >> else helps. Given that all devs are already operators on
> > >  >>> #reactos-dev,
> > >  >>> >> it's fully in their hands.
> > >  >>> >>
> > >  >>> >>
> > >  >>> >> Cheers,
> > >  >>> >>
> > >  >>> >> Colin
> > >  >>> >>
> > >  >>> >> _______________________________________________
> > >  >>> >> Ros-dev mailing list
> > >  >>> >> [e-mail]
> > >  >>> >> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> > >  >>> >>
> > >  >>> >>
> > >  >>> >>
> > >  >>> >>
> > >  >>> >> _______________________________________________
> > >  >>> >> Ros-dev mailing list
> > >  >>> >> [e-mail]
> > >  >>> >> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> > >  >>> >
> > >  >>> >
> > >  >>> >
> > >  >>> > _______________________________________________
> > >  >>> > Ros-dev mailing list
> > >  >>> > [e-mail]
> > >  >>> > http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> > >  >>>
> > >  >>> _______________________________________________
> > >  >>> Ros-dev mailing list
> > >  >>> [e-mail]
> > >  >>> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> > >  >>>
> > >  >>
> > >  >>
> > >  >> _______________________________________________
> > >  >> Ros-dev mailing list
> > >  >> [e-mail]
> > >  >> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> > >  >>
> > >  > _______________________________________________
> > >  > Ros-dev mailing list
> > >  > [e-mail]
> > >  > http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > >  Ros-dev mailing list
> > >  [e-mail]
> > >  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > >  Ros-dev mailing list
> > >  [e-mail]
> > >  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> > >
> > > ,_______________________________________________
> > >  Ros-dev mailing list
> > >  [e-mail]
> > >  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> > >
> > > Ros-dev mailing list
> > > [e-mail]
> > > http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> >
> > -- 
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Ros-dev mailing list
> > [e-mail]
> > http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> > ,
> > _______________________________________________
> > Ros-dev mailing list
> > [e-mail]
> > http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>
> -- 
> Best regards,
>  
> _______________________________________________
> Ros-dev mailing list
> [e-mail]
> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev

[David Quintana (gigaherz)]

I strongly disagree with everything you said in that email.

I'll reply inline

On 25 March 2017 at 21:17, Alexander Rechitskiy [e-mail] wrote:
> My original claim was that discussion about opening #reactos-dev is useless
> because:
> Devs intentionally not pay attention to #reactos

SOME devs don't pay attention to #reactos. I do, Amine does, Hermes does,
... stop generalizing.
> They even intentionally not pay attention to forum and JIRA

I personally don't use the forums. I have my reasons to want to avoid them,
and I don't feel the need to defend myself about it. I guess it's the same
for anyone else who dislikes the ambient in forums.
JIRA is another matter, I don't avoid it, but I'm usually not looking at it.
> So if we open #reactos-dev the dev will start ignore #reactos-dev too

Bullshit. This may happen if we start to let any idiot derail the channel
and we allow the channel to become offtopic. You are simply making a world
out of one small possibility.
> So the real problem is the devs intentional detachment and indifference
> and not the problem of #reactos-dev

Bullshit.
> You spend time in useless discussion instead of facing the real problem.

Bullshit.
> Also even you treat ReactOS as a hobby, you should not treat it as a toy.
> Too many people have already set their hopes for ReactOS. We should not
> dissappoint them by leaving the job half way again and again. ReactOS will
> not become more mature thing, while you still consider it just as a pet.
> It really may be mature, but with that attitude it is not possible. We
> should take some responsibility. The sooner you accept that, the better.

No one is "leaving the job half way". We have more contributions than ever.
ReactOS is a giant undertaking, so it's natural for it to be slow.

Using myself as an example: I currently don't have the motivation to
develop for reactos, after I'm get home from my job. This isn't going to
change any time soon. My options are simple: either I dedicate as much as I
can to helping the project, which right now means I stay around in the
#reactos channel (even while at work!), and help people who ask questions
and have doubts, or I quit from the project completely and contribute
nothing at all.

The sentiment is nice, but not many people have the luxury to dedicate MORE
than they are already doing. You are demanding that people risk their
lives, their families, and their future, for ReactOS. Have you even
considered that it may simply be asking too much?
> We have the paradoxical situation.

No we do not. Progress is slow, but steady.
> ReactOS Foundation has money for contracts, but nobody accepts them.

The ReactOS Foundation can only pay for scholarships, most developers are
not students anymore, so they are simply not candidates.
> Unstead the majority of participants reported the excuses, that they have
> all the time spent on  REAL work and personal life.

Oh so having a life is an excuse to you? You don't value having a future
for yourself?
> And for ReactOS there is no time left.

Bullshit. We even have old members who have come back to help once again.
We have been selected for GSoC for a second year in a row, which is an
historical milestone. Reactos is stronger than ever, but you are only
focusing on your pessimism and you can't see the progress that is happening
under your nose.
> Do not you think that there is a self-deception here?

I only see your blind pessimism.
> Why not combine a hobby and earning money? Why not work for the ReactOS
> Foundation? ReactOS, with the right approach taken, may grow into serious
> buisnes.

See above. We can only legally pay for scholarships, and the foundation
can't pay as much as a proper engineer gets paid, not by far.

So no, I don't agree with anything you said.

[Giannis Adamopoulos]

This is getting really funny. Since you act as if you work you ass off and we the devs are slacking, how much time do YOU spend each week with productive work?

ReactOS Development List [e-mail] wrote on Sat, March 25th, 2017, 9:17 PM:
> My original claim was that discussion about opening #reactos-dev is useless
> because:
> Devs intentionally not pay attention to #reactos
> They even intentionally not pay attention to forum and JIRA
>
> So if we open #reactos-dev the dev will start ignore #reactos-dev too.
>
> So the real problem is the devs intentional detachment and indifference and not the problem of #reactos-dev
>
> You spend time in useless discussion instead of facing the real problem.
>
> Also even you treat ReactOS as a hobby, you should not treat it as a toy. Too many people have already set their hopes for ReactOS. We should not dissappoint them by leaving the job half way again and again. ReactOS will not become more mature thing, while you still consider it just as a pet.  It really may be mature, but with that attitude it is not possible. We should take some responsibility. The sooner you accept that, the better.
>
> We have the paradoxical situation.  ReactOS Foundation has money for contracts, but nobody accepts them. Unstead the majority of participants reported the excuses, that they have all the time spent on  REAL work and personal life. And for ReactOS there is no time left. Do not you think that there is a self-deception here? Why not combine a hobby and earning money? Why not work for the ReactOS Foundation? ReactOS, with the right approach taken, may grow into serious buisnes.
>
> 25.03.2017, 22:23, "David Quintana (gigaherz)" [e-mail]:
> You HAVE to understand that everyone is contributing what they think they can afford to contribute. No matter how much it may be "best" if they used their time on something else, they ARE contributors, not slaves, so they are free to work on what they want. The sooner you accept that, the better.
>
> On 25 March 2017 at 19:42, Alexander Rechitskiy [e-mail] wrote:Giannis
>
> Project also accepts bug-reports, this important part of workflow, and this is the place where I am contributor #2
> https://jira.reactos.org/secure/ConfigureReport.jspa?projectOrFilterId=proje...
>
> 25.03.2017, 18:32, "Giannis Adamopoulos" [e-mail]:
> Right, show me the code. AKA we accept patches Alexander.
> Regarding #reactos-dev, I'm afraid that if we open it to everyone we will see the endless noise from jira to flood #reactos-dev.
>
> ReactOS Development List [e-mail] wrote on Sat, March 25th, 2017, 2:01 PM:
>  “Talk is cheap. Show me the code.” ― Linus Torvalds
>
> Speed of development of ReactOS is really slow. Developers do not care even about reports in JIRA. This discussion is sensles and useless because regardless of the it's result nothing will be better in ReactOS.
>
> 25.03.2017, 15:52, "Robert Naumann" [e-mail]:
>  There should simply be more devs in #reactos. Some are, but many are not. Everyone of us is able to give voice to newbies and direct dev related conversations to the dev channel. When we open this chan to the public we could instead remove it and do everything via #reactos.
>   Am 25.03.2017 13:33 schrieb "David Quintana (gigaherz)" [e-mail]:I don't see any usefulness in a #reactos-gsoc. It would isolate the gsoc people, rather than help them integrate into the team. Remember Google isn't just giving projects some free labor, the goal is to introduce new devs into the communities with the idea of them remaining in those communities. So being in the main channels should be part of the goal of gsoc.
>
> On 25 March 2017 at 08:53, Michael Fritscher [e-mail] wrote:Too many chans will clutter it, in the end the devs will have to join 10
>  chans. The chans aren't that high-traffic ones.
>
> I think we should yust try to do a -m and see what happens.
> > Yes, that's a better idea. #reactos-gsoc
> >
> > On Fri, Mar 24, 2017 at 6:53 PM, Alex Ionescu [e-mail] wrote:
> > > I don't agree. Maintain the auto-voice lists and get someone in charge
> > > of
> > > operations, like I used to be for many years on IRC.
> > >
> > > Instead, why not create a #reactos-gsoc or something?
> > >
> > > Best regards,
> > > Alex Ionescu
> > >
> > > On Fri, Mar 24, 2017 at 11:19 AM, Mark Jansen [e-mail]
> > > wrote:
> > > > We can always try it out?
> > > > If it doesnt work, restoring it is a simple as setting a flag on the
> > > > channel.
> > > >
> > > > On 24 March 2017 at 16:31, David Quintana (gigaherz)
> > > > [e-mail]
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > I disagree -- if we can be firm about the channel being only for
> > > >
> > > > development
> > > > > talk, things should remain mostly as they are now.
> > > > >
> > > > > In any community, there's inevitably going to be idle talk, offtopic
> > > > > conversations, etc. If you only have ONE place to talk in, all those
> > > >
> > > > thigns
> > > > > are going to be mixed in with actual dev talk, but if you have clear
> > > >
> > > > rooms
> > > > > set for each thing, the majority of people will be happy to leave all
> > > >
> > > > the
> > > > > offtopic talk to the main channel, and dev talk to the dev channel.
> > > > >
> > > > > It works for plenty other projects and communities so there's no
> > > >
> > > > reason
> > > > to
> > > > > be pessimistic and think that "our idiots are worse". It's simply not
> > > >
> > > > true.
> > > > > I vote for trying, and we can always put back the +m if things get
> > > >
> > > > out
> > > > of
> > > > > hand.
> > > > > On 24 March 2017 at 16:13, Hermès BÉLUSCA-MAà TO
> > > >
> > > > [e-mail]
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > I don’t approve the idea. The fact is that if the devs quit
> > > >
> > > > originally
> > > > > > #reactos, it’s because it was generally too noisy, etc… . If we
> > > >
> > > > remove
> > > > the
> > > > > > moderation irc bit in #reactos-dev, you may expect the same
> > > >
> > > > phenomenon
> > > > to
> > > > > > occur in #reactos-dev too.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > De : Ros-dev [mailto:[e-mail]] De la part de
> > > >
> > > > David
> > > > > > Quintana (gigaherz)
> > > > > > Envoyé : vendredi 24 mars 2017 11:35
> > > > > > À : ReactOS Development List>>> >> Objet : Re: [ros-dev] Opening up #reactos-dev to the public
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I approve the idea.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On 24 March 2017 at 11:21, Colin Finck [e-mail] wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hi all!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > As you all know, our #reactos-dev IRC channel has been a moderated
> > > >
> > > > IRC
> > > > > > channel for decades, and only operators (devs) and voiced people can
> > > > > > talk. While we always tried to keep discussions dev-related there,
> > > >
> > > > no
> > > > > > topic has ever been enforced on #reactos. The result is that I see a
> > > > > > notable number of developers only on #reactos-dev these days.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This is a pretty bad situation! Emerging developers hardly have a
> > > >
> > > > way
> > > > to
> > > > > > interact with all existing devs on IRC. Often enough, legitimate
> > > > > > questions from them remain unanswered on #reactos. Moreover, we
> > > >
> > > > don't
> > > > > > maintain the list of voiced people thoroughly, so even some
> > > >
> > > > contributors
> > > > > > have to ask for temporary voice on #reactos-dev.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Keep in mind that we're currently in the GSoC phase where students
> > > >
> > > > shall
> > > > > > submit their proposals and get in touch with the developers.
> > > > > > How are they going to do this on IRC if #reactos-dev continues to be
> > > >
> > > > an
> > > > > > exclusive club?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Because of these reasons, I'm proposing to remove the moderation bit
> > > >
> > > > on
> > > > > > #reactos-dev and let everybody talk there.
> > > > > > Its development topic should be enforced though! As soon as people
> > > >
> > > > get
> > > > > > too off-topic, they should be directed to #reactos and kicked if
> > > >
> > > > nothing
> > > > > > else helps. Given that all devs are already operators on
> > > >
> > > > #reactos-dev,
> > > > > > it's fully in their hands.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Cheers,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Colin
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Ros-dev mailing list
> > > > > > [e-mail]
> > > > > > http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Ros-dev mailing list
> > > > > > [e-mail]
> > > > > > http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> > > > >
> > > > > Ros-dev mailing list
> > > > > [e-mail]
> > > > > http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> > > >
> > > > Ros-dev mailing list
> > > > [e-mail]
> > > > http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> > >
> > > Ros-dev mailing list
> > > [e-mail]
> > > http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> >
> > Ros-dev mailing list
> > [e-mail]
> > http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>
> Ros-dev mailing list
>  [e-mail]
>  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>
> Ros-dev mailing list
>  [e-mail]
>  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>
> ,_______________________________________________
>  Ros-dev mailing list
>  [e-mail]
>  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> _______________________________________________
> Ros-dev mailing list
> [e-mail]
> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev