Networking

[Oleg Baikalow]

Hi,
I see you're busy discussing other stuff and my message went unnoticed :) I
made a look to existing network branches, found many of them. LWIP is
interesting. Alexey said the best way is to join your irc channel. I will
try to occasionally join, but in your project, mailing list must be a
primary point of discussion not irc channel.

I think I start from making a simple, but robust tcpip driver (with help of
numerously available source code of tcp/ip protocol implementations).
Hopefully you could give me branch access, it's gonna be hard to develop it
with patches.

// Oleg Baikalow.

P.S. I really like your "kernel coding style", quite rare to see that in
opensource projects. Most of foss projects utilize linux-alike stlye, whic
is harder to read and not that clean.

[Olaf Siejka]

Hiya

Discussing issues on ros-dev maillist is fine. I asked Aleksiej to pass you
the irc channel discussion mostly for helping you out with basic ROS stuff
like compilation, VM setup and testing issues.

Regards

2010/10/27 Oleg Baikalow [e-mail]
> Hi,
> I see you're busy discussing other stuff and my message went unnoticed :) I
> made a look to existing network branches, found many of them. LWIP is
> interesting. Alexey said the best way is to join your irc channel. I will
> try to occasionally join, but in your project, mailing list must be a
> primary point of discussion not irc channel.
>
> I think I start from making a simple, but robust tcpip driver (with help of
> numerously available source code of tcp/ip protocol implementations).
> Hopefully you could give me branch access, it's gonna be hard to develop it
> with patches.
>
> // Oleg Baikalow.
>
> P.S. I really like your "kernel coding style", quite rare to see that in
> opensource projects. Most of foss projects utilize linux-alike stlye, whic
> is harder to read and not that clean.
>
> Ros-dev mailing list
> [e-mail]
> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev

[Javier Agustìn Fernàndez Arroyo]

also, i think you would like to talk with Cameron Gutman (aka aicom). He is
the main network developer nowadays...

On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 12:47 PM, Olaf Siejka [e-mail] wrote:
> Hiya
>
> Discussing issues on ros-dev maillist is fine. I asked Aleksiej to pass you
> the irc channel discussion mostly for helping you out with basic ROS stuff
> like compilation, VM setup and testing issues.
>
> Regards
>
> 2010/10/27 Oleg Baikalow [e-mail]
> > Hi,
> > I see you're busy discussing other stuff and my message went unnoticed :)
> > I made a look to existing network branches, found many of them. LWIP is
> > interesting. Alexey said the best way is to join your irc channel. I will
> > try to occasionally join, but in your project, mailing list must be a
> > primary point of discussion not irc channel.
> >
> > I think I start from making a simple, but robust tcpip driver (with help
> > of numerously available source code of tcp/ip protocol implementations).
> > Hopefully you could give me branch access, it's gonna be hard to develop it
> > with patches.
> >
> > // Oleg Baikalow.
> >
> > P.S. I really like your "kernel coding style", quite rare to see that in
> > opensource projects. Most of foss projects utilize linux-alike stlye, whic
> > is harder to read and not that clean.
> >
> > Ros-dev mailing list
> > [e-mail]
> > http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>
> Ros-dev mailing list
> [e-mail]
> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev

[Aleksey Bragin]

Yes, please feel free to join our channel when you have any  
questions. I will create a branch for your coming work, if you like.

Thanks!

WBR,
Aleksey.

On Oct 27, 2010, at 2:47 PM, Olaf Siejka wrote:
> Hiya
>
> Discussing issues on ros-dev maillist is fine. I asked Aleksiej to  
> pass you the irc channel discussion mostly for helping you out with  
> basic ROS stuff like compilation, VM setup and testing issues.
>
> Regards
>
> 2010/10/27 Oleg Baikalow [e-mail]
> Hi,
> I see you're busy discussing other stuff and my message went  
> unnoticed :) I made a look to existing network branches, found many  
> of them. LWIP is interesting. Alexey said the best way is to join  
> your irc channel. I will try to occasionally join, but in your  
> project, mailing list must be a primary point of discussion not irc  
> channel.
>
> I think I start from making a simple, but robust tcpip driver (with  
> help of numerously available source code of tcp/ip protocol  
> implementations). Hopefully you could give me branch access, it's  
> gonna be hard to develop it with patches.
>
> // Oleg Baikalow.
>
> P.S. I really like your "kernel coding style", quite rare to see  
> that in opensource projects. Most of foss projects utilize linux- 
> alike stlye, whic is harder to read and not that clean.

[Ged Murphy]

Aagghhhhh!!! Why is everything always done over IRC????

The neglection of the reactos mailing lists is one of this _big_ things this
project does wrong.

-          It forces the community into a sort of hidden niche group and
alienates people who don't use IRC

-          It gives the impression that reactos activity is low. There are
thousands of people who follow this project aren't on IRC and have no idea
of what is going on.

-          It arguably deters new people from joining because they can't
really get to grips with the project without becoming a slave to IRC

-          It means important discussions are missed, even by the core team,
if they aren't watching the IRC chat 24/7 or miss a PM

I could go on and on with reasons of why you neglect the mailing lists is so
harmful, but I fear no one will listen to my cries.

Maybe I should vent my frustration in IRC for the niche community, and we
can all have an internal discussion about it???

Ged.

From: [e-mail] [mailto:[e-mail]] On
Behalf Of Aleksey Bragin
Sent: 27 October 2010 13:54
To: ReactOS Development List
Subject: Re: [ros-dev] Networking

Yes, please feel free to join our channel when you have any questions. I
will create a branch for your coming work, if you like.

Thanks!

WBR,

Aleksey.

On Oct 27, 2010, at 2:47 PM, Olaf Siejka wrote:

Hiya

Discussing issues on ros-dev maillist is fine. I asked Aleksiej to pass you
the irc channel discussion mostly for helping you out with basic ROS stuff
like compilation, VM setup and testing issues.

Regards

2010/10/27 Oleg Baikalow [e-mail]

Hi,

I see you're busy discussing other stuff and my message went unnoticed :) I
made a look to existing network branches, found many of them. LWIP is
interesting. Alexey said the best way is to join your irc channel. I will
try to occasionally join, but in your project, mailing list must be a
primary point of discussion not irc channel.

I think I start from making a simple, but robust tcpip driver (with help of
numerously available source code of tcp/ip protocol implementations).
Hopefully you could give me branch access, it's gonna be hard to develop it
with patches.

// Oleg Baikalow.

P.S. I really like your "kernel coding style", quite rare to see that in
opensource projects. Most of foss projects utilize linux-alike stlye, whic
is harder to read and not that clean.

[cheer_xiao]

On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 9:52 PM, Ged Murphy [e-mail] wrote:
> Aagghhhhh!!! Why is everything always done over IRC????
>
> The neglection of the reactos mailing lists is one of this _big_ things this
> project does wrong.
>
> -          It forces the community into a sort of hidden niche group and
> alienates people who don’t use IRC
>
> -          It gives the impression that reactos activity is low. There are
> thousands of people who follow this project aren’t on IRC and have no idea
> of what is going on.
>
> -          It arguably deters new people from joining because they can’t
> really get to grips with the project without becoming a slave to IRC
>
> -          It means important discussions are missed, even by the core team,
> if they aren’t watching the IRC chat 24/7 or miss a PM
>
> I could go on and on with reasons of why you neglect the mailing lists is so
> harmful, but I fear no one will listen to my cries.
>
> Maybe I should vent my frustration in IRC for the niche community, and we
> can all have an internal discussion about it???

As a long-term follower of this project, I vote for you :)

[Jérôme Gardou]

As someone who's regularly behind an unfriendly proxy, I have to agree.

Ged Murphy wrote:
> Aagghhhhh!!! Why is everything always done over IRC????
>
> The neglection of the reactos mailing lists is one of this _/big/_ 
> things this project does wrong.
> It forces the community into a sort of hidden niche group and
>
> alienates people who don’t use IRC
> It gives the impression that reactos activity is low. There are
>
> thousands of people who follow this project aren’t on IRC and have no 
> idea of what is going on.
> It arguably deters new people from joining because they can’t really
>
> get to grips with the project without becoming a slave to IRC
> It means important discussions are missed, even by the core team, if
>
> they aren’t watching the IRC chat 24/7 or miss a PM
>
> I could go on and on with reasons of why you neglect the mailing lists 
> is so harmful, but I fear no one will listen to my cries.
>
> Maybe I should vent my frustration in IRC for the niche community, and 
> we can all have an internal discussion about it???
>
> Ged.
>
> *From:* [e-mail] 
> [mailto:[e-mail]] *On Behalf Of *Aleksey Bragin
> *Sent:* 27 October 2010 13:54
> *To:* ReactOS Development List
> *Subject:* Re: [ros-dev] Networking
>
> Yes, please feel free to join our channel when you have any questions. 
> I will create a branch for your coming work, if you like.
>
> Thanks!
>
> WBR,
>
> Aleksey.
>
> On Oct 27, 2010, at 2:47 PM, Olaf Siejka wrote:
>
> Hiya
>
> Discussing issues on ros-dev maillist is fine. I asked Aleksiej to 
> pass you the irc channel discussion mostly for helping you out with 
> basic ROS stuff like compilation, VM setup and testing issues.
>
> Regards
>
> 2010/10/27 Oleg Baikalow <[e-mail] 
> mailto:[e-mail]>
>
> Hi,
>
> I see you're busy discussing other stuff and my message went unnoticed 
> :) I made a look to existing network branches, found many of them. 
> LWIP is interesting. Alexey said the best way is to join your irc 
> channel. I will try to occasionally join, but in your project, mailing 
> list must be a primary point of discussion not irc channel.
>
> I think I start from making a simple, but robust tcpip driver (with 
> help of numerously available source code of tcp/ip protocol 
> implementations). Hopefully you could give me branch access, it's 
> gonna be hard to develop it with patches.
>
> // Oleg Baikalow.
>
> P.S. I really like your "kernel coding style", quite rare to see that 
> in opensource projects. Most of foss projects utilize linux-alike 
> stlye, whic is harder to read and not that clean.
>
> Ros-dev mailing list
> [e-mail]
> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev

[cheer_xiao]

On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 9:52 PM, Ged Murphy [e-mail] wrote:
> Aagghhhhh!!! Why is everything always done over IRC????
>
> The neglection of the reactos mailing lists is one of this _big_ things this
> project does wrong.
>
> -          It forces the community into a sort of hidden niche group and
> alienates people who don’t use IRC
>
> -          It gives the impression that reactos activity is low. There are
> thousands of people who follow this project aren’t on IRC and have no idea
> of what is going on.
>
> -          It arguably deters new people from joining because they can’t
> really get to grips with the project without becoming a slave to IRC
>
> -          It means important discussions are missed, even by the core team,
> if they aren’t watching the IRC chat 24/7 or miss a PM
>
> I could go on and on with reasons of why you neglect the mailing lists is so
> harmful, but I fear no one will listen to my cries.
>
> Maybe I should vent my frustration in IRC for the niche community, and we
> can all have an internal discussion about it???

As a undergraduate of CS I subscribed to this mailing list a year or
two ago, hoping to keep informed about what's going on within the
project, and perhaps that someday I could find something that really
interests me and help it out. But according to Ged it is quite
frustrating that most people prefer IRC, for you know, we have 24 time
zones on earth and I'm on the opposite side from most people on this
project. The IRC is also potentially making the project
time-zone-restricted.

[Olaf Siejka]

Look, before you guys start venting off, please at least try to understand
what are you really getting mad about. As much as you seem to hate
communicating via IRC, personally i see no other way of introducing someone
to ROS fundamentals, including (but not limited to):

- necessary tools
- checkout layount
- compilation commands
- vm setup
- debug setup
and many many more. I need at least 30-60 minutes to pass this information
via irc, as well as get immediate feedback on any problems. But no! This
undermines the purpose of THIS maillist!!!!

Dou you REALLY want me to do it via ros-dev maillist??!!!

2010/10/27 cheer_xiao [e-mail]
> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 9:52 PM, Ged Murphy [e-mail] wrote:
> > Aagghhhhh!!! Why is everything always done over IRC????
> >
> > The neglection of the reactos mailing lists is one of this _big_ things
>
> this
> > project does wrong.
> >      It forces the community into a sort of hidden niche group and
> >
> > alienates people who don’t use IRC
> >      It gives the impression that reactos activity is low. There
>
> are
> > thousands of people who follow this project aren’t on IRC and have no
>
> idea
> > of what is going on.
> >      It arguably deters new people from joining because they can’t
> >
> > really get to grips with the project without becoming a slave to IRC
> >      It means important discussions are missed, even by the core
>
> team,
> > if they aren’t watching the IRC chat 24/7 or miss a PM
> >
> > I could go on and on with reasons of why you neglect the mailing lists is
>
> so
> > harmful, but I fear no one will listen to my cries.
> >
> > Maybe I should vent my frustration in IRC for the niche community, and we
> > can all have an internal discussion about it???
>
> As a undergraduate of CS I subscribed to this mailing list a year or
> two ago, hoping to keep informed about what's going on within the
> project, and perhaps that someday I could find something that really
> interests me and help it out. But according to Ged it is quite
> frustrating that most people prefer IRC, for you know, we have 24 time
> zones on earth and I'm on the opposite side from most people on this
> project. The IRC is also potentially making the project
> time-zone-restricted.
>
> Ros-dev mailing list
> [e-mail]
> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev

[Danny Götte]

Am 27.10.10 16:21, schrieb Olaf Siejka:
> Dou you REALLY want me to do it via ros-dev maillist??!!!

create a wiki page and post the link everytime someone needs that 
introduction

[Adam Kachwalla]

Guys... the ROS Mailing list and IRC channels have a purpose. That I am  
sure about.

The mailing list should be used for long messages and lengthy and yet  
important discussions.

The IRC channel can be used for more "intermediate/immediate" discussions,  
for example how to fix that fantastic bed bug that has been there since  
Revision 1337 or whatever... things that are done real time.

So use them both in balance I say. :)

On Thu, 28 Oct 2010 01:21:40 +1100, Olaf Siejka [e-mail] wrote:
> Look, before you guys start venting off, please at least try to  
> understand what are you really getting mad about. As much as you seem to  
> hate >communicating via IRC, personally i see no other way of  
> introducing someone to ROS fundamentals, including (but not limited to):
> necessary tools
> checkout layount
> compilation commands
> vm setup
> debug setup
>
> and many many more. I need at least 30-60 minutes to pass this  
> information via irc, as well as get immediate feedback on any problems.  
> But no! >This undermines the purpose of THIS maillist!!!!
>
> Dou you REALLY want me to do it via ros-dev maillist??!!!
>
> 2010/10/27 cheer_xiao [e-mail]
> > On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 9:52 PM, Ged Murphy [e-mail] wrote:
> > > Aagghhhhh!!! Why is everything always done over IRC????
> > >
> > > The neglection of the reactos mailing lists is one of this _big_
> >
> > things this
> > > project does wrong.
> > >      It forces the community into a sort of hidden niche group  
> >
> > and
> > > alienates people who don’t use IRC
> > >      It gives the impression that reactos activity is low.  
> >
> > There are
> > > thousands of people who follow this project aren’t on IRC and have no
> >
> > idea
> > > of what is going on.
> > >      It arguably deters new people from joining because they  
> >
> > can’t
> > > really get to grips with the project without becoming a slave to IRC
> > >      It means important discussions are missed, even by the  
> >
> > core team,
> > > if they aren’t watching the IRC chat 24/7 or miss a PM
> > >
> > > I could go on and on with reasons of why you neglect the mailing
> >
> > lists is so
> > > harmful, but I fear no one will listen to my cries.
> > >
> > > Maybe I should vent my frustration in IRC for the niche community,
> >
> > and we
> > > can all have an internal discussion about it???
> >
> > As a undergraduate of CS I subscribed to this mailing list a year or
> > two ago, hoping to keep informed about what's going on within the
> > project, and perhaps that someday I could find something that really
> > interests me and help it out. But according to Ged it is quite
> > frustrating that most people prefer IRC, for you know, we have 24 time
> > zones on earth and I'm on the opposite side from most people on this
> > project. The IRC is also potentially making the project
> > time-zone-restricted.
> >
> > Ros-dev mailing list
> > [e-mail]
> > http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
-- 
Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day.
Teach a man to fish and he will eat for a lifetime.
Give a man religion and he will die praying for a fish.

[Ged Murphy]

I wasn't referring to this particular request, I'm just making a general
point.

Reactos likes to hide itself away from the world in its little IRC bubble.

This is great if you're a private group but not when you're a public entity
trying to attract outside interest.

Even the website is full of incorrect info.

How on earth reactos is meant to attract people is beyond me.

Ged.

p.s. I regularly have email conversations with people interested in joining
as the [dev dash interest mailto:[e-mail]  at reactos.org]
mail address still forwards to me. It's really not that hard.

From: [e-mail] [mailto:[e-mail]] On
Behalf Of Olaf Siejka
Sent: 27 October 2010 15:22
To: ReactOS Development List
Subject: Re: [ros-dev] Networking

Look, before you guys start venting off, please at least try to understand
what are you really getting mad about. As much as you seem to hate
communicating via IRC, personally i see no other way of introducing someone
to ROS fundamentals, including (but not limited to):

- necessary tools

- checkout layount

- compilation commands

- vm setup

- debug setup

and many many more. I need at least 30-60 minutes to pass this information
via irc, as well as get immediate feedback on any problems. But no! This
undermines the purpose of THIS maillist!!!!

Dou you REALLY want me to do it via ros-dev maillist??!!!

2010/10/27 cheer_xiao [e-mail]

On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 9:52 PM, Ged Murphy [e-mail] wrote:
> Aagghhhhh!!! Why is everything always done over IRC????
>
> The neglection of the reactos mailing lists is one of this _big_ things

this
> project does wrong.
>      It forces the community into a sort of hidden niche group and
>
> alienates people who don't use IRC
>      It gives the impression that reactos activity is low. There are
>
> thousands of people who follow this project aren't on IRC and have no idea
> of what is going on.
>      It arguably deters new people from joining because they can't
>
> really get to grips with the project without becoming a slave to IRC
>      It means important discussions are missed, even by the core

team,
> if they aren't watching the IRC chat 24/7 or miss a PM
>
> I could go on and on with reasons of why you neglect the mailing lists is

so
> harmful, but I fear no one will listen to my cries.
>
> Maybe I should vent my frustration in IRC for the niche community, and we
> can all have an internal discussion about it???

As a undergraduate of CS I subscribed to this mailing list a year or
two ago, hoping to keep informed about what's going on within the
project, and perhaps that someday I could find something that really
interests me and help it out. But according to Ged it is quite
frustrating that most people prefer IRC, for you know, we have 24 time
zones on earth and I'm on the opposite side from most people on this
project. The IRC is also potentially making the project
time-zone-restricted.

_______________________________________________
Ros-dev mailing list
[e-mail]
http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev

[Kamil Hornicek]

"I regularly have email conversations with people interested in joining as 
the [dev dash interest at reactos.org] mail address still forwards to me. It's 
really not that hard."

yeah and why do you hide them in your secret bubble??

no seriously. you can have private conversations via email.. but when 
multiple people join in it gets messy very quickly. do you see how 
ridiculously this message looks after few replies? html emails, citing over 
and above the original text, lenghty signatures. it's pain to read this. as 
for being hidden the irc channel is clearly mentioned on the web page so 
it's not like we are going undercover. as I said before - if you can find 
the mailing list, you can find the irc.

k.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Ged Murphy
To: 'ReactOS Development List'
Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2010 4:37 PM
Subject: Re: [ros-dev] Networking

I wasn't referring to this particular request, I'm just making a general 
point.

Reactos likes to hide itself away from the world in its little IRC bubble.
This is great if you're a private group but not when you're a public entity 
trying to attract outside interest.

Even the website is full of incorrect info.

How on earth reactos is meant to attract people is beyond me.

Ged.

p.s. I regularly have email conversations with people interested in joining 
as the [dev dash interest at reactos.org] mail address still forwards to me. 
It's really not that hard.

From: [e-mail] [mailto:[e-mail]] On 
Behalf Of Olaf Siejka
Sent: 27 October 2010 15:22
To: ReactOS Development List
Subject: Re: [ros-dev] Networking

Look, before you guys start venting off, please at least try to understand 
what are you really getting mad about. As much as you seem to hate 
communicating via IRC, personally i see no other way of introducing someone 
to ROS fundamentals, including (but not limited to):

- necessary tools
- checkout layount
- compilation commands
- vm setup
- debug setup
and many many more. I need at least 30-60 minutes to pass this information 
via irc, as well as get immediate feedback on any problems. But no! This 
undermines the purpose of THIS maillist!!!!

Dou you REALLY want me to do it via ros-dev maillist??!!!

2010/10/27 cheer_xiao [e-mail]
On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 9:52 PM, Ged Murphy [e-mail] wrote:
> Aagghhhhh!!! Why is everything always done over IRC????
>
> The neglection of the reactos mailing lists is one of this _big_ things 
> this
> project does wrong.
>      It forces the community into a sort of hidden niche group and
>
> alienates people who don't use IRC
>      It gives the impression that reactos activity is low. There are
>
> thousands of people who follow this project aren't on IRC and have no idea
> of what is going on.
>      It arguably deters new people from joining because they can't
>
> really get to grips with the project without becoming a slave to IRC
>      It means important discussions are missed, even by the core 
>
> team,
> if they aren't watching the IRC chat 24/7 or miss a PM
>
> I could go on and on with reasons of why you neglect the mailing lists is 
> so
> harmful, but I fear no one will listen to my cries.
>
> Maybe I should vent my frustration in IRC for the niche community, and we
> can all have an internal discussion about it???

As a undergraduate of CS I subscribed to this mailing list a year or
two ago, hoping to keep informed about what's going on within the
project, and perhaps that someday I could find something that really
interests me and help it out. But according to Ged it is quite
frustrating that most people prefer IRC, for you know, we have 24 time
zones on earth and I'm on the opposite side from most people on this
project. The IRC is also potentially making the project
time-zone-restricted.

_______________________________________________
Ros-dev mailing list
[e-mail]
http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev

_______________________________________________
Ros-dev mailing list
[e-mail]
http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev

[Adam Kachwalla]

Not much of a "private conversation" is possible on a mailing list either.

On Thu, 28 Oct 2010 01:50:23 +1100, Kamil Hornicek  
[e-mail] wrote:
> "I regularly have email conversations with people interested in joining  
> as the [dev dash interest at reactos.org] mail address still forwards to  
> me. It's really not that hard."
>
> yeah and why do you hide them in your secret bubble??
>
> no seriously. you can have private conversations via email.. but when  
> multiple people join in it gets messy very quickly. do you see how  
> ridiculously this message looks after few replies? html emails, citing  
> over and above the original text, lenghty signatures. it's pain to read  
> this. as for being hidden the irc channel is clearly mentioned on the  
> web page so it's not like we are going undercover. as I said before - if  
> you can find the mailing list, you can find the irc.
>
> k.
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: Ged Murphy
> To: 'ReactOS Development List'
> Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2010 4:37 PM
> Subject: Re: [ros-dev] Networking
>
> I wasn't referring to this particular request, I'm just making a general  
> point.
>
> Reactos likes to hide itself away from the world in its little IRC  
> bubble.
> This is great if you're a private group but not when you're a public  
> entity trying to attract outside interest.
>
> Even the website is full of incorrect info.
>
> How on earth reactos is meant to attract people is beyond me.
>
> Ged.
>
> p.s. I regularly have email conversations with people interested in  
> joining as the [dev dash interest at reactos.org] mail address still  
> forwards to me. It's really not that hard.
>
> From: [e-mail] [mailto:[e-mail]]  
> On Behalf Of Olaf Siejka
> Sent: 27 October 2010 15:22
> To: ReactOS Development List
> Subject: Re: [ros-dev] Networking
>
> Look, before you guys start venting off, please at least try to  
> understand what are you really getting mad about. As much as you seem to  
> hate communicating via IRC, personally i see no other way of introducing  
> someone to ROS fundamentals, including (but not limited to):
> necessary tools
> checkout layount
> compilation commands
> vm setup
> debug setup
>
> and many many more. I need at least 30-60 minutes to pass this  
> information via irc, as well as get immediate feedback on any problems.  
> But no! This undermines the purpose of THIS maillist!!!!
>
> Dou you REALLY want me to do it via ros-dev maillist??!!!
>
> 2010/10/27 cheer_xiao [e-mail]
> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 9:52 PM, Ged Murphy [e-mail] wrote:
> > Aagghhhhh!!! Why is everything always done over IRC????
> >
> > The neglection of the reactos mailing lists is one of this _big_ things  
> > this
> > project does wrong.
> >      It forces the community into a sort of hidden niche group and
> >
> > alienates people who don't use IRC
> >      It gives the impression that reactos activity is low. There  
> >
> > are
> > thousands of people who follow this project aren't on IRC and have no  
> > idea
> > of what is going on.
> >      It arguably deters new people from joining because they can't
> >
> > really get to grips with the project without becoming a slave to IRC
> >      It means important discussions are missed, even by the core  
> >
> > team,
> > if they aren't watching the IRC chat 24/7 or miss a PM
> >
> > I could go on and on with reasons of why you neglect the mailing lists  
> > is so
> > harmful, but I fear no one will listen to my cries.
> >
> > Maybe I should vent my frustration in IRC for the niche community, and  
> > we
> > can all have an internal discussion about it???
>
> As a undergraduate of CS I subscribed to this mailing list a year or
> two ago, hoping to keep informed about what's going on within the
> project, and perhaps that someday I could find something that really
> interests me and help it out. But according to Ged it is quite
> frustrating that most people prefer IRC, for you know, we have 24 time
> zones on earth and I'm on the opposite side from most people on this
> project. The IRC is also potentially making the project
> time-zone-restricted.
>
> Ros-dev mailing list
> [e-mail]
> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>
> Ros-dev mailing list
> [e-mail]
> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev  
> _______________________________________________
> Ros-dev mailing list
> [e-mail]
> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
-- 
Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day.
Teach a man to fish and he will eat for a lifetime.
Give a man religion and he will die praying for a fish.

[Ged Murphy]

It's not messy at all.
It's strange you think that because mailing lists work well for pretty much
every other project out there. Why is reactos different?

Considering the difficulty you seem to think it brings, I've easily read
pretty much all the emails on both ros-dev and ros-diffs every day for the
past 8 years.
I haven't looked at the IRC chat once this week, nor do I have an particular
interest to.

Ged.

-----Original Message-----
From: [e-mail] [mailto:[e-mail]] On
Behalf Of Kamil Hornicek
Sent: 27 October 2010 15:50
To: ReactOS Development List
Subject: Re: [ros-dev] Networking

"I regularly have email conversations with people interested in joining as 
the [dev dash interest at reactos.org] mail address still forwards to me.
It's 
really not that hard."

yeah and why do you hide them in your secret bubble??

no seriously. you can have private conversations via email.. but when 
multiple people join in it gets messy very quickly. do you see how 
ridiculously this message looks after few replies? html emails, citing over 
and above the original text, lenghty signatures. it's pain to read this. as 
for being hidden the irc channel is clearly mentioned on the web page so 
it's not like we are going undercover. as I said before - if you can find 
the mailing list, you can find the irc.

k.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Ged Murphy
To: 'ReactOS Development List'
Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2010 4:37 PM
Subject: Re: [ros-dev] Networking

I wasn't referring to this particular request, I'm just making a general 
point.

Reactos likes to hide itself away from the world in its little IRC bubble.
This is great if you're a private group but not when you're a public entity 
trying to attract outside interest.

Even the website is full of incorrect info.

How on earth reactos is meant to attract people is beyond me.

Ged.

p.s. I regularly have email conversations with people interested in joining 
as the [dev dash interest at reactos.org] mail address still forwards to me.

It's really not that hard.

From: [e-mail] [mailto:[e-mail]] On 
Behalf Of Olaf Siejka
Sent: 27 October 2010 15:22
To: ReactOS Development List
Subject: Re: [ros-dev] Networking

Look, before you guys start venting off, please at least try to understand 
what are you really getting mad about. As much as you seem to hate 
communicating via IRC, personally i see no other way of introducing someone 
to ROS fundamentals, including (but not limited to):

- necessary tools
- checkout layount
- compilation commands
- vm setup
- debug setup
and many many more. I need at least 30-60 minutes to pass this information 
via irc, as well as get immediate feedback on any problems. But no! This 
undermines the purpose of THIS maillist!!!!

Dou you REALLY want me to do it via ros-dev maillist??!!!

2010/10/27 cheer_xiao [e-mail]
On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 9:52 PM, Ged Murphy [e-mail] wrote:
> Aagghhhhh!!! Why is everything always done over IRC????
>
> The neglection of the reactos mailing lists is one of this _big_ things 
> this
> project does wrong.
>      It forces the community into a sort of hidden niche group and
>
> alienates people who don't use IRC
>      It gives the impression that reactos activity is low. There are
>
> thousands of people who follow this project aren't on IRC and have no idea
> of what is going on.
>      It arguably deters new people from joining because they can't
>
> really get to grips with the project without becoming a slave to IRC
>      It means important discussions are missed, even by the core 
>
> team,
> if they aren't watching the IRC chat 24/7 or miss a PM
>
> I could go on and on with reasons of why you neglect the mailing lists is 
> so
> harmful, but I fear no one will listen to my cries.
>
> Maybe I should vent my frustration in IRC for the niche community, and we
> can all have an internal discussion about it???

As a undergraduate of CS I subscribed to this mailing list a year or
two ago, hoping to keep informed about what's going on within the
project, and perhaps that someday I could find something that really
interests me and help it out. But according to Ged it is quite
frustrating that most people prefer IRC, for you know, we have 24 time
zones on earth and I'm on the opposite side from most people on this
project. The IRC is also potentially making the project
time-zone-restricted.

_______________________________________________
Ros-dev mailing list
[e-mail]
http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev

_______________________________________________
Ros-dev mailing list
[e-mail]
http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev

_______________________________________________
Ros-dev mailing list
[e-mail]
http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev

[Kamil Hornicek]

" Considering the difficulty you seem to think it brings, I've easily read 
pretty much all the emails on both ros-dev and ros-diffs every day for the 
past 8 years."

considering nothing is being posted here it's not that big of an achievment.

about the IRC bit.. you were there for a long long time back when you were 
more active but I understand that you don't have any urge to care about it 
now. what is the point? also not to nitpick but you certainly did look at 
the irc chat and you also wrote something...

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ged Murphy" [e-mail]
To: "'ReactOS Development List'" [e-mail]
Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2010 5:06 PM
Subject: Re: [ros-dev] Networking
> It's not messy at all.
> It's strange you think that because mailing lists work well for pretty 
> much
> every other project out there. Why is reactos different?
>
> Considering the difficulty you seem to think it brings, I've easily read
> pretty much all the emails on both ros-dev and ros-diffs every day for the
> past 8 years.
> I haven't looked at the IRC chat once this week, nor do I have an 
> particular
> interest to.
>
> Ged.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [e-mail] [mailto:[e-mail]] On
> Behalf Of Kamil Hornicek
> Sent: 27 October 2010 15:50
> To: ReactOS Development List
> Subject: Re: [ros-dev] Networking
>
> "I regularly have email conversations with people interested in joining as
> the [dev dash interest at reactos.org] mail address still forwards to me.
> It's
> really not that hard."
>
> yeah and why do you hide them in your secret bubble??
>
> no seriously. you can have private conversations via email.. but when
> multiple people join in it gets messy very quickly. do you see how
> ridiculously this message looks after few replies? html emails, citing 
> over
> and above the original text, lenghty signatures. it's pain to read this. 
> as
> for being hidden the irc channel is clearly mentioned on the web page so
> it's not like we are going undercover. as I said before - if you can find
> the mailing list, you can find the irc.
>
> k.
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: Ged Murphy
> To: 'ReactOS Development List'
> Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2010 4:37 PM
> Subject: Re: [ros-dev] Networking
>
> I wasn't referring to this particular request, I'm just making a general
> point.
>
> Reactos likes to hide itself away from the world in its little IRC bubble.
> This is great if you're a private group but not when you're a public 
> entity
> trying to attract outside interest.
>
> Even the website is full of incorrect info.
>
> How on earth reactos is meant to attract people is beyond me.
>
> Ged.
>
> p.s. I regularly have email conversations with people interested in 
> joining
> as the [dev dash interest at reactos.org] mail address still forwards to 
> me.
>
> It's really not that hard.
>
> From: [e-mail] [mailto:[e-mail]] On
> Behalf Of Olaf Siejka
> Sent: 27 October 2010 15:22
> To: ReactOS Development List
> Subject: Re: [ros-dev] Networking
>
> Look, before you guys start venting off, please at least try to understand
> what are you really getting mad about. As much as you seem to hate
> communicating via IRC, personally i see no other way of introducing 
> someone
> to ROS fundamentals, including (but not limited to):
> necessary tools
> checkout layount
> compilation commands
> vm setup
> debug setup
>
> and many many more. I need at least 30-60 minutes to pass this information
> via irc, as well as get immediate feedback on any problems. But no! This
> undermines the purpose of THIS maillist!!!!
>
> Dou you REALLY want me to do it via ros-dev maillist??!!!
>
> 2010/10/27 cheer_xiao [e-mail]
> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 9:52 PM, Ged Murphy [e-mail] wrote:
> > Aagghhhhh!!! Why is everything always done over IRC????
> >
> > The neglection of the reactos mailing lists is one of this _big_ things
> > this
> > project does wrong.
> >      It forces the community into a sort of hidden niche group and
> >
> > alienates people who don't use IRC
> >      It gives the impression that reactos activity is low. There 
> >
> > are
> > thousands of people who follow this project aren't on IRC and have no 
> > idea
> > of what is going on.
> >      It arguably deters new people from joining because they can't
> >
> > really get to grips with the project without becoming a slave to IRC
> >      It means important discussions are missed, even by the core
> >
> > team,
> > if they aren't watching the IRC chat 24/7 or miss a PM
> >
> > I could go on and on with reasons of why you neglect the mailing lists is
> > so
> > harmful, but I fear no one will listen to my cries.
> >
> > Maybe I should vent my frustration in IRC for the niche community, and we
> > can all have an internal discussion about it???
>
> As a undergraduate of CS I subscribed to this mailing list a year or
> two ago, hoping to keep informed about what's going on within the
> project, and perhaps that someday I could find something that really
> interests me and help it out. But according to Ged it is quite
> frustrating that most people prefer IRC, for you know, we have 24 time
> zones on earth and I'm on the opposite side from most people on this
> project. The IRC is also potentially making the project
> time-zone-restricted.
>
> Ros-dev mailing list
> [e-mail]
> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>
> Ros-dev mailing list
> [e-mail]
> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>
> Ros-dev mailing list
> [e-mail]
> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>
> Ros-dev mailing list
> [e-mail]
> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev

[Kamil Hornicek]

"considering nothing is being posted here it's not that big of an 
achievment."

sorry.. should have been "considering nothing is being posted here *apart 
from an occasional drama* it's not that big of an achievment."

[Dmitry Gorbachev]

Hi!

I agree with Ged.

Kamil Hornicek wrote:
> about the IRC bit.. you were there for a long long time back when you were
> more active but I understand that you don't have any urge to care about it
> now. what is the point?

The point is, that it's difficult for people outside the 'niche group'
to know what happens here. Please do not suggest to hang on IRC.
Reading it, where useful messages are heavily intermixed with noise,
is painful.

[Bernd Blaauw]

Op 27-10-2010 18:08, Dmitry Gorbachev schreef:
> The point is, that it's difficult for people outside the 'niche group'
> to know what happens here. Please do not suggest to hang on IRC.
> Reading it, where useful messages are heavily intermixed with noise,
> is painful.

Some kind of 'daily chatlog' for a public ROS IRC channel, so people can 
catch up in their own time rather than in real time? Ofcourse you don't 
want everything archived, it would discourage private discussions etc.

[Zachary Gorden]

I believe that would be a violation of freenode's policies if the nicks are
not anonymized.
On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 11:39 AM, Bernd Blaauw [e-mail] wrote:
> Op 27-10-2010 18:08, Dmitry Gorbachev schreef:
>
> The point is, that it's difficult for people outside the 'niche group'
> > to know what happens here. Please do not suggest to hang on IRC.
> > Reading it, where useful messages are heavily intermixed with noise,
> > is painful.
>
> Some kind of 'daily chatlog' for a public ROS IRC channel, so people can
> catch up in their own time rather than in real time? Ofcourse you don't want
> everything archived, it would discourage private discussions etc.
>
> Ros-dev mailing list
> [e-mail]
> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev

[Olaf Siejka]

> create a wiki page and post the link everytime someone needs that

introduction

I am sorry, my cloning machine is currently out of order and i`m stuck with
only myself. Its getting hard to keep several things at order, also i dont
see many volounteers, willing to help us out...

Again, my proposal regarding irc was strictly limited to what i explained in
my previous message. Please do not escalate it into quarel regarding project
communication. This thread was dedicated to our new guest and his possible
work on ROS networking. It is not very polite to hijack it for own opinions
on something completely unrelated.

I am sorry, Oleg, it should not have happened.

[Javier Agustìn Fernàndez Arroyo]

+1 to Olaf
i was going to say that too

On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 7:17 PM, Olaf Siejka [e-mail] wrote:
> > create a wiki page and post the link everytime someone needs that
>
> introduction
>
> I am sorry, my cloning machine is currently out of order and i`m stuck with
> only myself. Its getting hard to keep several things at order, also i dont
> see many volounteers, willing to help us out...
>
> Again, my proposal regarding irc was strictly limited to what i explained
> in my previous message. Please do not escalate it into quarel regarding
> project communication. This thread was dedicated to our new guest and his
> possible work on ROS networking. It is not very polite to hijack it for own
> opinions on something completely unrelated.
>
> I am sorry, Oleg, it should not have happened.
>
> Ros-dev mailing list
> [e-mail]
> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev

[Oleg Baikalow]

My humble message seems to generate big flame :) Olaf - thank you, I will
join IRC if I need to ask something about compiling, however ReactOS really
looks very easy to build. I just downloaded RosBE, installed it, and that's
it. I have yet to figure out how to test better (going to try different
virtual machines), but that's not a big problem.

I will keep all development related issues on this mailing list as you wish.
On my dayjob access to IRC is also very problematic.

// Oleg Baikalow

2010/10/27 Olaf Siejka [e-mail]
> > create a wiki page and post the link everytime someone needs that
>
> introduction
>
> I am sorry, my cloning machine is currently out of order and i`m stuck with
> only myself. Its getting hard to keep several things at order, also i dont
> see many volounteers, willing to help us out...
>
> Again, my proposal regarding irc was strictly limited to what i explained
> in my previous message. Please do not escalate it into quarel regarding
> project communication. This thread was dedicated to our new guest and his
> possible work on ROS networking. It is not very polite to hijack it for own
> opinions on something completely unrelated.
>
> I am sorry, Oleg, it should not have happened.
>
> Ros-dev mailing list
> [e-mail]
> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev

[Sylvain Petreolle]

Hello and welcome Oleg.

If you have problems to access IRC using regular clients,
you can use freenode's webchat. All you need is a javascript enabled browser.
http://webchat.freenode.net/

Kind regards,
Sylvain Petreolle
> De : Oleg Baikalow [e-mail]
> À : ReactOS Development List [e-mail]
> Envoyé le : Jeu 28 octobre 2010, 10h 42min 12s
> Objet : Re: [ros-dev] Networking
>
> My humble message seems to generate big flame :) Olaf - thank you, I will join 
> IRC if I need to ask something about compiling, however ReactOS really looks 
> very easy to build. I just downloaded RosBE, installed it, and that's it. I have 
> yet to figure out how to test better (going to try different virtual machines), 
> but that's not a big problem.
>
> I will keep all development related issues on this mailing list as you wish. On 
> my dayjob access to IRC is also very problematic.
>
> // Oleg Baikalow
>
> 2010/10/27 Olaf Siejka [e-mail]
> > create a wiki page and post the link everytime someone needs that

introduction
> > I am sorry, my cloning machine is currently out of order and i`m stuck with only 
> > myself. Its getting hard to keep several things at order, also i dont see many 
> > volounteers, willing to help us out...
> >
> > Again, my proposal regarding irc was strictly limited to what i explained in my 
> > previous message. Please do not escalate it into quarel regarding project 
> > communication. This thread was dedicated to our new guest and his possible work 
> > on ROS networking. It is not very polite to hijack it for own opinions on 
> > something completely unrelated.
> >
> > I am sorry, Oleg, it should not have happened.
> >
> > Ros-dev mailing list
> > [e-mail]
> > http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev

[Oleg Baikalow]

I see a branch was created with a funny name :). I asked Alexey to move
stuff from Alex's branch too, and I am currently researching what numerous
"aicom-*" branches contain.
It's a lot of work, so expect big commits in the beginning of december,
before that only preliminary and organization stuff I will do. I will keep
you informed about my plans, problems and progress here.

// Oleg Baikalow
2010/10/28 Oleg Baikalow [e-mail]
> My humble message seems to generate big flame :) Olaf - thank you, I will
> join IRC if I need to ask something about compiling, however ReactOS really
> looks very easy to build. I just downloaded RosBE, installed it, and that's
> it. I have yet to figure out how to test better (going to try different
> virtual machines), but that's not a big problem.
>
> I will keep all development related issues on this mailing list as you
> wish. On my dayjob access to IRC is also very problematic.
>
> // Oleg Baikalow
>
> 2010/10/27 Olaf Siejka [e-mail]
> > > create a wiki page and post the link everytime someone needs that
> >
> > introduction
> >
> > I am sorry, my cloning machine is currently out of order and i`m stuck
> > with only myself. Its getting hard to keep several things at order, also i
> > dont see many volounteers, willing to help us out...
> >
> > Again, my proposal regarding irc was strictly limited to what i explained
> > in my previous message. Please do not escalate it into quarel regarding
> > project communication. This thread was dedicated to our new guest and his
> > possible work on ROS networking. It is not very polite to hijack it for own
> > opinions on something completely unrelated.
> >
> > I am sorry, Oleg, it should not have happened.

[Cameron Gutman]

Sorry for not getting back to you sooner. I had some issues sending to the mailing list after I moved to my reactos.org address. But (if you're reading this) I've since resolved those issues.

Here is a summary of my branches:

tcp-rewrite-branch: A branch which aims to replace our OSKit-based TCP implementation with a lwIP-based implementation. Current problems are very low throughput (~10x slower than oskittcp) and listen/accept issues.

aicom-network-branch: A branch with a few NDIS changes (unfinished), but more importantly all of Alex's changes merged and several fixes to them. Ws2_32.dll in this branch is ws2_32_new.dll in trunk. Ws2_32.dll doesn't work in this branch because there is still some registry configuration that needs to be done for the Winsock providers catalog. Mswsock.dll in this branch is the replacement for msafd.dll in trunk. It has some problems with async selects but that's about it (to my knowledge). Simple applications such as rapps and dwnl work, but more complex applications like firefox and mirc are broken. The ws2help.dll from Alex's branch has already been merged to trunk and this branch. I found it is easiest to work on mswsock.dll using ws2_32.dll from trunk (catalog.c needs to be changed to look for mswsock.dll instead of msafd.dll).

aicom-hardware-fun: Not a networking branch

Please don't merge from Alex's branch for the Winsock items. Instead, use aicom-network-branch because it has many fixes by Art Yerkes and I. Feel free to review our patches if you'd like.

Thanks,
Cameron Gutman (aicom)

On Nov 6, 2010, at 2:36 PM, Oleg Baikalow wrote:
> I see a branch was created with a funny name :). I asked Alexey to move stuff from Alex's branch too, and I am currently researching what numerous "aicom-*" branches contain.
> It's a lot of work, so expect big commits in the beginning of december, before that only preliminary and organization stuff I will do. I will keep you informed about my plans, problems and progress here.
>
> // Oleg Baikalow
> 2010/10/28 Oleg Baikalow [e-mail]
> _______________________________________________
> Ros-dev mailing list
> [e-mail]
> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev

[Pierre Schweitzer]

Hi,

I agree with Ged as well (I would tend to say as usual).

I would even go farther (and here real drama starts). When I see what is said on IRC, I think being off IRC can just be good for health. This helps them not reading stupid remarks or childish ones (one person may feel really concerned about that...).

Since the begin of my holidays, I haven't come on IRC. I don't feel more stupid. I just feel well.

IRC should be kept for precise purposes: "emergency", minor stuff, meetings. All the rest should be moved back to the appropriate place: boards, ML, mails.

As a reminder: I can be reached with the mail address I am using here, or via boards MP (account Heis Spiter), or on IRC, just leave a message on ZNC (I'll answer when available, which is close to email/ML purpose btw).

Communicating is definitely not the best part of the ReactOS project...

Regards,
P. Schweitzer

[Kamil Hornicek]

On the other hand discussing things in realtime has its advantages. 
As for IRC being hidden and alientating people. You can say the same thing about the ML. I for one feel better talking to niche group of people than to a public list where I don't even know if the people I need to talk to are subscribed. Also if someone is able to subscribe to the ML I'm sure he can handle IRC. I'm not saying everything should be done over IRC but I'm saying it's pretty useful.

Where I see the real problem: any post to ML gets an instant "join IRC" reply. I think we can and should do better than that. If someone posts here we should keep it here.

Kamil
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Ged Murphy 
  To: 'ReactOS Development List' 
  Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2010 3:52 PM
  Subject: Re: [ros-dev] Networking

Aagghhhhh!!! Why is everything always done over IRC????

The neglection of the reactos mailing lists is one of this _big_ things this project does wrong.

-          It forces the community into a sort of hidden niche group and alienates people who don't use IRC

-          It gives the impression that reactos activity is low. There are thousands of people who follow this project aren't on IRC and have no idea of what is going on.

-          It arguably deters new people from joining because they can't really get to grips with the project without becoming a slave to IRC

-          It means important discussions are missed, even by the core team, if they aren't watching the IRC chat 24/7 or miss a PM

I could go on and on with reasons of why you neglect the mailing lists is so harmful, but I fear no one will listen to my cries.

Maybe I should vent my frustration in IRC for the niche community, and we can all have an internal discussion about it???

Ged.

From: [e-mail] [mailto:[e-mail]] On Behalf Of Aleksey Bragin
  Sent: 27 October 2010 13:54
  To: ReactOS Development List
  Subject: Re: [ros-dev] Networking

Yes, please feel free to join our channel when you have any questions. I will create a branch for your coming work, if you like.

Thanks!

WBR,

Aleksey.

On Oct 27, 2010, at 2:47 PM, Olaf Siejka wrote:

Hiya

Discussing issues on ros-dev maillist is fine. I asked Aleksiej to pass you the irc channel discussion mostly for helping you out with basic ROS stuff like compilation, VM setup and testing issues.

Regards

2010/10/27 Oleg Baikalow [e-mail]

Hi,

I see you're busy discussing other stuff and my message went unnoticed :) I made a look to existing network branches, found many of them. LWIP is interesting. Alexey said the best way is to join your irc channel. I will try to occasionally join, but in your project, mailing list must be a primary point of discussion not irc channel.

I think I start from making a simple, but robust tcpip driver (with help of numerously available source code of tcp/ip protocol implementations). Hopefully you could give me branch access, it's gonna be hard to develop it with patches.

// Oleg Baikalow.

P.S. I really like your "kernel coding style", quite rare to see that in opensource projects. Most of foss projects utilize linux-alike stlye, whic is harder to read and not that clean.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

_______________________________________________
  Ros-dev mailing list
  [e-mail]
  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev

[breakoutbox]

I still follow the discussions here.

Never on IRC, sorry.
No free PC access on the job, just one of the reasons ..

Cheers,
Peter

27.10.2010 15:52, Ged Murphy:
> Aagghhhhh!!! Why is everything always done over IRC????
>
> The neglection of the reactos mailing lists is one of this _/big/_ 
> things this project does wrong.
>
> -It forces the community into a sort of hidden niche group and 
> alienates people who don't use IRC
>
> -It gives the impression that reactos activity is low. There are 
> thousands of people who follow this project aren't on IRC and have no 
> idea of what is going on.
>
> -It arguably deters new people from joining because they can't really 
> get to grips with the project without becoming a slave to IRC
>
> -It means important discussions are missed, even by the core team, if 
> they aren't watching the IRC chat 24/7 or miss a PM
>
> I could go on and on with reasons of why you neglect the mailing lists 
> is so harmful, but I fear no one will listen to my cries.
>
> Maybe I should vent my frustration in IRC for the niche community, and 
> we can all have an internal discussion about it???
>
> Ged.