27 Oct
2010
27 Oct
'10
9:49 a.m.
Hi,
I see you're busy discussing other stuff and my message went unnoticed :) I
made a look to existing network branches, found many of them. LWIP is
interesting. Alexey said the best way is to join your irc channel. I will
try to occasionally join, but in your project, mailing list must be a
primary point of discussion not irc channel.
I think I start from making a simple, but robust tcpip driver (with help of
numerously available source code of tcp/ip protocol implementations).
Hopefully you could give me branch access, it's gonna be hard to develop it
with patches.
// Oleg Baikalow.
P.S. I really like your "kernel coding style", quite rare to see that in
opensource projects. Most of foss projects utilize linux-alike stlye, whic
is harder to read and not that clean.
27 Oct
27 Oct
10:47 a.m.
Hiya
Discussing issues on ros-dev maillist is fine. I asked Aleksiej to pass you
the irc channel discussion mostly for helping you out with basic ROS stuff
like compilation, VM setup and testing issues.
Regards
2010/10/27 Oleg Baikalow <obaikalow(a)gmail.com>
Hi,
I see you're busy discussing other stuff and my message went unnoticed :) I
made a look to existing network branches, found many of them. LWIP is
interesting. Alexey said the best way is to join your irc channel. I will
try to occasionally join, but in your project, mailing list must be a
primary point of discussion not irc channel.
I think I start from making a simple, but robust tcpip driver (with help of
numerously available source code of tcp/ip protocol implementations).
Hopefully you could give me branch access, it's gonna be hard to develop it
with patches.
// Oleg Baikalow.
P.S. I really like your "kernel coding style", quite rare to see that in
opensource projects. Most of foss projects utilize linux-alike stlye, whic
is harder to read and not that clean.
_______________________________________________
Ros-dev mailing list
Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
11:01 a.m.
also, i think you would like to talk with Cameron Gutman (aka aicom). He is
the main network developer nowadays...
On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 12:47 PM, Olaf Siejka <caemyr(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Hiya
Discussing issues on ros-dev maillist is fine. I asked Aleksiej to pass you
the irc channel discussion mostly for helping you out with basic ROS stuff
like compilation, VM setup and testing issues.
Regards
2010/10/27 Oleg Baikalow <obaikalow(a)gmail.com>
Hi,
I see you're busy discussing other stuff and my message went unnoticed :)
I made a look to existing network branches, found many of them. LWIP is
interesting. Alexey said the best way is to join your irc channel. I will
try to occasionally join, but in your project, mailing list must be a
primary point of discussion not irc channel.
I think I start from making a simple, but robust tcpip driver (with help
of numerously available source code of tcp/ip protocol implementations).
Hopefully you could give me branch access, it's gonna be hard to develop it
with patches.
// Oleg Baikalow.
P.S. I really like your "kernel coding style", quite rare to see that in
opensource projects. Most of foss projects utilize linux-alike stlye, whic
is harder to read and not that clean.
_______________________________________________
Ros-dev mailing list
Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
_______________________________________________
Ros-dev mailing list
Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
12:54 p.m.
Yes, please feel free to join our channel when you have any
questions. I will create a branch for your coming work, if you like.
Thanks!
WBR,
Aleksey.
On Oct 27, 2010, at 2:47 PM, Olaf Siejka wrote:
Hiya
Discussing issues on ros-dev maillist is fine. I asked Aleksiej to
pass you the irc channel discussion mostly for helping you out with
basic ROS stuff like compilation, VM setup and testing issues.
Regards
2010/10/27 Oleg Baikalow <obaikalow(a)gmail.com>
Hi,
I see you're busy discussing other stuff and my message went
unnoticed :) I made a look to existing network branches, found many
of them. LWIP is interesting. Alexey said the best way is to join
your irc channel. I will try to occasionally join, but in your
project, mailing list must be a primary point of discussion not irc
channel.
I think I start from making a simple, but robust tcpip driver (with
help of numerously available source code of tcp/ip protocol
implementations). Hopefully you could give me branch access, it's
gonna be hard to develop it with patches.
// Oleg Baikalow.
P.S. I really like your "kernel coding style", quite rare to see
that in opensource projects. Most of foss projects utilize linux-
alike stlye, whic is harder to read and not that clean.
1:52 p.m.
Aagghhhhh!!! Why is everything always done over IRC????
The neglection of the reactos mailing lists is one of this _big_ things this
project does wrong.
- It forces the community into a sort of hidden niche group and
alienates people who don't use IRC
- It gives the impression that reactos activity is low. There are
thousands of people who follow this project aren't on IRC and have no idea
of what is going on.
- It arguably deters new people from joining because they can't
really get to grips with the project without becoming a slave to IRC
- It means important discussions are missed, even by the core team,
if they aren't watching the IRC chat 24/7 or miss a PM
I could go on and on with reasons of why you neglect the mailing lists is so
harmful, but I fear no one will listen to my cries.
Maybe I should vent my frustration in IRC for the niche community, and we
can all have an internal discussion about it???
Ged.
From: ros-dev-bounces(a)reactos.org [mailto:ros-dev-bounces@reactos.org] On
Behalf Of Aleksey Bragin
Sent: 27 October 2010 13:54
To: ReactOS Development List
Subject: Re: [ros-dev] Networking
Yes, please feel free to join our channel when you have any questions. I
will create a branch for your coming work, if you like.
Thanks!
WBR,
Aleksey.
On Oct 27, 2010, at 2:47 PM, Olaf Siejka wrote:
Hiya
Discussing issues on ros-dev maillist is fine. I asked Aleksiej to pass you
the irc channel discussion mostly for helping you out with basic ROS stuff
like compilation, VM setup and testing issues.
Regards
2010/10/27 Oleg Baikalow <obaikalow(a)gmail.com>
Hi,
I see you're busy discussing other stuff and my message went unnoticed :) I
made a look to existing network branches, found many of them. LWIP is
interesting. Alexey said the best way is to join your irc channel. I will
try to occasionally join, but in your project, mailing list must be a
primary point of discussion not irc channel.
I think I start from making a simple, but robust tcpip driver (with help of
numerously available source code of tcp/ip protocol implementations).
Hopefully you could give me branch access, it's gonna be hard to develop it
with patches.
// Oleg Baikalow.
P.S. I really like your "kernel coding style", quite rare to see that in
opensource projects. Most of foss projects utilize linux-alike stlye, whic
is harder to read and not that clean.
1:56 p.m.
On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 9:52 PM, Ged Murphy <gedmurphy(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Aagghhhhh!!! Why is everything always done over
IRC????
The neglection of the reactos mailing lists is one of this _big_ things this
project does wrong.
- It forces the community into a sort of hidden niche group and
alienates people who don’t use IRC
- It gives the impression that reactos activity is low. There are
thousands of people who follow this project aren’t on IRC and have no idea
of what is going on.
- It arguably deters new people from joining because they can’t
really get to grips with the project without becoming a slave to IRC
- It means important discussions are missed, even by the core team,
if they aren’t watching the IRC chat 24/7 or miss a PM
I could go on and on with reasons of why you neglect the mailing lists is so
harmful, but I fear no one will listen to my cries.
Maybe I should vent my frustration in IRC for the niche community, and we
can all have an internal discussion about it???
As a long-term follower of this project, I vote for you :)
2:04 p.m.
As someone who's regularly behind an unfriendly proxy, I have to agree.
Ged Murphy wrote:
Aagghhhhh!!! Why is everything always done over IRC????
The neglection of the reactos mailing lists is one of this _/big/_
things this project does wrong.
- It forces the community into a sort of hidden niche group and
alienates people who don’t use IRC
- It gives the impression that reactos activity is low. There are
thousands of people who follow this project aren’t on IRC and have no
idea of what is going on.
- It arguably deters new people from joining because they can’t really
get to grips with the project without becoming a slave to IRC
- It means important discussions are missed, even by the core team, if
they aren’t watching the IRC chat 24/7 or miss a PM
I could go on and on with reasons of why you neglect the mailing lists
is so harmful, but I fear no one will listen to my cries.
Maybe I should vent my frustration in IRC for the niche community, and
we can all have an internal discussion about it???
Ged.
*From:* ros-dev-bounces(a)reactos.org
[mailto:ros-dev-bounces@reactos.org] *On Behalf Of *Aleksey Bragin
*Sent:* 27 October 2010 13:54
*To:* ReactOS Development List
*Subject:* Re: [ros-dev] Networking
Yes, please feel free to join our channel when you have any questions.
I will create a branch for your coming work, if you like.
Thanks!
WBR,
Aleksey.
On Oct 27, 2010, at 2:47 PM, Olaf Siejka wrote:
Hiya
Discussing issues on ros-dev maillist is fine. I asked Aleksiej to
pass you the irc channel discussion mostly for helping you out with
basic ROS stuff like compilation, VM setup and testing issues.
Regards
2010/10/27 Oleg Baikalow <obaikalow(a)gmail.com
<mailto:obaikalow@gmail.com>>
Hi,
I see you're busy discussing other stuff and my message went unnoticed
:) I made a look to existing network branches, found many of them.
LWIP is interesting. Alexey said the best way is to join your irc
channel. I will try to occasionally join, but in your project, mailing
list must be a primary point of discussion not irc channel.
I think I start from making a simple, but robust tcpip driver (with
help of numerously available source code of tcp/ip protocol
implementations). Hopefully you could give me branch access, it's
gonna be hard to develop it with patches.
// Oleg Baikalow.
P.S. I really like your "kernel coding style", quite rare to see that
in opensource projects. Most of foss projects utilize linux-alike
stlye, whic is harder to read and not that clean.
_______________________________________________
Ros-dev mailing list
Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
2:09 p.m.
On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 9:52 PM, Ged Murphy <gedmurphy(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Aagghhhhh!!! Why is everything always done over
IRC????
The neglection of the reactos mailing lists is one of this _big_ things this
project does wrong.
- It forces the community into a sort of hidden niche group and
alienates people who don’t use IRC
- It gives the impression that reactos activity is low. There are
thousands of people who follow this project aren’t on IRC and have no idea
of what is going on.
- It arguably deters new people from joining because they can’t
really get to grips with the project without becoming a slave to IRC
- It means important discussions are missed, even by the core team,
if they aren’t watching the IRC chat 24/7 or miss a PM
I could go on and on with reasons of why you neglect the mailing lists is so
harmful, but I fear no one will listen to my cries.
Maybe I should vent my frustration in IRC for the niche community, and we
can all have an internal discussion about it???
As a undergraduate of CS I subscribed to this mailing list a year or
two ago, hoping to keep informed about what's going on within the
project, and perhaps that someday I could find something that really
interests me and help it out. But according to Ged it is quite
frustrating that most people prefer IRC, for you know, we have 24 time
zones on earth and I'm on the opposite side from most people on this
project. The IRC is also potentially making the project
time-zone-restricted.
2:21 p.m.
Look, before you guys start venting off, please at least try to understand
what are you really getting mad about. As much as you seem to hate
communicating via IRC, personally i see no other way of introducing someone
to ROS fundamentals, including (but not limited to):
- necessary tools
- checkout layount
- compilation commands
- vm setup
- debug setup
and many many more. I need at least 30-60 minutes to pass this information
via irc, as well as get immediate feedback on any problems. But no! This
undermines the purpose of THIS maillist!!!!
Dou you REALLY want me to do it via ros-dev maillist??!!!
2010/10/27 cheer_xiao <xiaqqaix(a)gmail.com>
On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 9:52 PM, Ged Murphy
<gedmurphy(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Aagghhhhh!!! Why is everything always done over
IRC????
The neglection of the reactos mailing lists is one of this _big_ things
this
project does wrong.
- It forces the community into a sort of hidden niche group and
alienates people who don’t use IRC
- It gives the impression that reactos activity is low. There
are
thousands of people who follow this project
aren’t on IRC and have no
idea
of what is going on.
- It arguably deters new people from joining because they can’t
really get to grips with the project without becoming a slave to IRC
- It means important discussions are missed, even by the core
team,
if they aren’t watching the IRC chat 24/7 or miss
a PM
I could go on and on with reasons of why you neglect the mailing lists is
so
harmful, but I fear no one will listen to my
cries.
Maybe I should vent my frustration in IRC for the niche community, and we
can all have an internal discussion about it???
As a undergraduate of CS I subscribed to this mailing list a year or
two ago, hoping to keep informed about what's going on within the
project, and perhaps that someday I could find something that really
interests me and help it out. But according to Ged it is quite
frustrating that most people prefer IRC, for you know, we have 24 time
zones on earth and I'm on the opposite side from most people on this
project. The IRC is also potentially making the project
time-zone-restricted.
_______________________________________________
Ros-dev mailing list
Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
2:33 p.m.
Guys... the ROS Mailing list and IRC channels have a purpose. That I am
sure about.
The mailing list should be used for long messages and lengthy and yet
important discussions.
The IRC channel can be used for more "intermediate/immediate" discussions,
for example how to fix that fantastic bed bug that has been there since
Revision 1337 or whatever... things that are done real time.
So use them both in balance I say. :)
On Thu, 28 Oct 2010 01:21:40 +1100, Olaf Siejka <caemyr(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Look, before you guys start venting off, please at
least try to
understand what are you really getting mad about. As much as you seem to
hate >communicating via IRC, personally i see no other way of
introducing someone to ROS fundamentals, including (but not limited to):
- necessary tools
- checkout layount
- compilation commands
- vm setup
- debug setup
and many many more. I need at least 30-60 minutes to pass this
information via irc, as well as get immediate feedback on any problems.
But no! >This undermines the purpose of THIS maillist!!!!
Dou you REALLY want me to do it via ros-dev maillist??!!!
2010/10/27 cheer_xiao <xiaqqaix(a)gmail.com>
--
Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day.
Teach a man to fish and he will eat for a lifetime.
Give a man religion and he will die praying for a fish.
On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 9:52 PM, Ged Murphy
<gedmurphy(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Aagghhhhh!!! Why is everything always done over
IRC????
The neglection of the reactos mailing lists is one of this _big_
things this
project does wrong.
- It forces the community into a sort of hidden niche group
and
alienates people who don’t use IRC
- It gives the impression that reactos activity is low.
There are
thousands of people who follow this project
aren’t on IRC and have no
idea
of what is going on.
- It arguably deters new people from joining because they
can’t
really get to grips with the project without
becoming a slave to IRC
- It means important discussions are missed, even by the
core team,
if they aren’t watching the IRC chat 24/7 or miss
a PM
I could go on and on with reasons of why you neglect the mailing
lists is so
harmful, but I fear no one will listen to my
cries.
Maybe I should vent my frustration in IRC for the niche community,
and we
can all have an internal discussion about it???
As a undergraduate of CS I subscribed to this mailing list a year or
two ago, hoping to keep informed about what's going on within the
project, and perhaps that someday I could find something that really
interests me and help it out. But according to Ged it is quite
frustrating that most people prefer IRC, for you know, we have 24 time
zones on earth and I'm on the opposite side from most people on this
project. The IRC is also potentially making the project
time-zone-restricted.
_______________________________________________
Ros-dev mailing list
Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
2:37 p.m.
I wasn't referring to this particular request, I'm just making a general
point.
Reactos likes to hide itself away from the world in its little IRC bubble.
This is great if you're a private group but not when you're a public entity
trying to attract outside interest.
Even the website is full of incorrect info.
How on earth reactos is meant to attract people is beyond me.
Ged.
p.s. I regularly have email conversations with people interested in joining
as the [dev dash interest <mailto:dev-interest@reactos.org> at reactos.org]
mail address still forwards to me. It's really not that hard.
From: ros-dev-bounces(a)reactos.org [mailto:ros-dev-bounces@reactos.org] On
Behalf Of Olaf Siejka
Sent: 27 October 2010 15:22
To: ReactOS Development List
Subject: Re: [ros-dev] Networking
Look, before you guys start venting off, please at least try to understand
what are you really getting mad about. As much as you seem to hate
communicating via IRC, personally i see no other way of introducing someone
to ROS fundamentals, including (but not limited to):
- necessary tools
- checkout layount
- compilation commands
- vm setup
- debug setup
and many many more. I need at least 30-60 minutes to pass this information
via irc, as well as get immediate feedback on any problems. But no! This
undermines the purpose of THIS maillist!!!!
Dou you REALLY want me to do it via ros-dev maillist??!!!
2010/10/27 cheer_xiao <xiaqqaix(a)gmail.com>
On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 9:52 PM, Ged Murphy <gedmurphy(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Aagghhhhh!!! Why is everything always done over
IRC????
The neglection of the reactos mailing lists is one of this _big_ things
this
project does wrong.
- It forces the community into a sort of hidden niche group and
alienates people who don't use IRC
- It gives the impression that reactos activity is low. There are
thousands of people who follow this project aren't on IRC and have no idea
of what is going on.
- It arguably deters new people from joining because they can't
really get to grips with the project without becoming a slave to IRC
- It means important discussions are missed, even by the core
team,
if they aren't watching the IRC chat 24/7 or miss
a PM
I could go on and on with reasons of why you neglect the mailing lists is
so
harmful, but I fear no one will listen to my cries.
Maybe I should vent my frustration in IRC for the niche community, and we
can all have an internal discussion about it???
As a undergraduate of CS I subscribed to this mailing list a year or
two ago, hoping to keep informed about what's going on within the
project, and perhaps that someday I could find something that really
interests me and help it out. But according to Ged it is quite
frustrating that most people prefer IRC, for you know, we have 24 time
zones on earth and I'm on the opposite side from most people on this
project. The IRC is also potentially making the project
time-zone-restricted.
_______________________________________________
Ros-dev mailing list
Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
2:50 p.m.
"I regularly have email conversations with people interested in joining as
the [dev dash interest at reactos.org] mail address still forwards to me. It's
really not that hard."
yeah and why do you hide them in your secret bubble??
no seriously. you can have private conversations via email.. but when
multiple people join in it gets messy very quickly. do you see how
ridiculously this message looks after few replies? html emails, citing over
and above the original text, lenghty signatures. it's pain to read this. as
for being hidden the irc channel is clearly mentioned on the web page so
it's not like we are going undercover. as I said before - if you can find
the mailing list, you can find the irc.
k.
----- Original Message -----
From: Ged Murphy
To: 'ReactOS Development List'
Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2010 4:37 PM
Subject: Re: [ros-dev] Networking
I wasn't referring to this particular request, I'm just making a general
point.
Reactos likes to hide itself away from the world in its little IRC bubble.
This is great if you're a private group but not when you're a public entity
trying to attract outside interest.
Even the website is full of incorrect info.
How on earth reactos is meant to attract people is beyond me.
Ged.
p.s. I regularly have email conversations with people interested in joining
as the [dev dash interest at reactos.org] mail address still forwards to me.
It's really not that hard.
From: ros-dev-bounces(a)reactos.org [mailto:ros-dev-bounces@reactos.org] On
Behalf Of Olaf Siejka
Sent: 27 October 2010 15:22
To: ReactOS Development List
Subject: Re: [ros-dev] Networking
Look, before you guys start venting off, please at least try to understand
what are you really getting mad about. As much as you seem to hate
communicating via IRC, personally i see no other way of introducing someone
to ROS fundamentals, including (but not limited to):
- necessary tools
- checkout layount
- compilation commands
- vm setup
- debug setup
and many many more. I need at least 30-60 minutes to pass this information
via irc, as well as get immediate feedback on any problems. But no! This
undermines the purpose of THIS maillist!!!!
Dou you REALLY want me to do it via ros-dev maillist??!!!
2010/10/27 cheer_xiao <xiaqqaix(a)gmail.com>
On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 9:52 PM, Ged Murphy <gedmurphy(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Aagghhhhh!!! Why is everything always done over
IRC????
The neglection of the reactos mailing lists is one of this _big_ things
this
project does wrong.
- It forces the community into a sort of hidden niche group and
alienates people who don't use IRC
- It gives the impression that reactos activity is low. There are
thousands of people who follow this project aren't on IRC and have no idea
of what is going on.
- It arguably deters new people from joining because they can't
really get to grips with the project without becoming a slave to IRC
- It means important discussions are missed, even by the core
team,
if they aren't watching the IRC chat 24/7 or miss a PM
I could go on and on with reasons of why you neglect the mailing lists is
so
harmful, but I fear no one will listen to my cries.
Maybe I should vent my frustration in IRC for the niche community, and we
can all have an internal discussion about it???
As a undergraduate of CS I
subscribed to this mailing list a year or
two ago, hoping to keep informed about what's going on within the
project, and perhaps that someday I could find something that really
interests me and help it out. But according to Ged it is quite
frustrating that most people prefer IRC, for you know, we have 24 time
zones on earth and I'm on the opposite side from most people on this
project. The IRC is also potentially making the project
time-zone-restricted.
_______________________________________________
Ros-dev mailing list
Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
_______________________________________________
Ros-dev mailing list
Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
2:52 p.m.
Not much of a "private conversation" is possible on a mailing list either.
On Thu, 28 Oct 2010 01:50:23 +1100, Kamil Hornicek
<kamil.hornicek(a)reactos.org> wrote:
"I regularly have email conversations with people
interested in joining
as the [dev dash interest at reactos.org] mail address still forwards to
me. It's really not that hard."
yeah and why do you hide them in your secret bubble??
no seriously. you can have private conversations via email.. but when
multiple people join in it gets messy very quickly. do you see how
ridiculously this message looks after few replies? html emails, citing
over and above the original text, lenghty signatures. it's pain to read
this. as for being hidden the irc channel is clearly mentioned on the
web page so it's not like we are going undercover. as I said before - if
you can find the mailing list, you can find the irc.
k.
----- Original Message ----- From: Ged Murphy
To: 'ReactOS Development List'
Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2010 4:37 PM
Subject: Re: [ros-dev] Networking
I wasn't referring to this particular request, I'm just making a general
point.
Reactos likes to hide itself away from the world in its little IRC
bubble.
This is great if you're a private group but not when you're a public
entity trying to attract outside interest.
Even the website is full of incorrect info.
How on earth reactos is meant to attract people is beyond me.
Ged.
p.s. I regularly have email conversations with people interested in
joining as the [dev dash interest at reactos.org] mail address still
forwards to me. It's really not that hard.
From: ros-dev-bounces(a)reactos.org [mailto:ros-dev-bounces@reactos.org]
On Behalf Of Olaf Siejka
Sent: 27 October 2010 15:22
To: ReactOS Development List
Subject: Re: [ros-dev] Networking
Look, before you guys start venting off, please at least try to
understand what are you really getting mad about. As much as you seem to
hate communicating via IRC, personally i see no other way of introducing
someone to ROS fundamentals, including (but not limited to):
- necessary tools
- checkout layount
- compilation commands
- vm setup
- debug setup
and many many more. I need at least 30-60 minutes to pass this
information via irc, as well as get immediate feedback on any problems.
But no! This undermines the purpose of THIS maillist!!!!
Dou you REALLY want me to do it via ros-dev maillist??!!!
2010/10/27 cheer_xiao <xiaqqaix(a)gmail.com>
On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 9:52 PM, Ged Murphy <gedmurphy(a)gmail.com> wrote:
--
Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day.
Teach a man to fish and he will eat for a lifetime.
Give a man religion and he will die praying for a fish.
Aagghhhhh!!! Why is everything always done over
IRC????
The neglection of the reactos mailing lists is one of this _big_ things
this
project does wrong.
- It forces the community into a sort of hidden niche group and
alienates people who don't use IRC
- It gives the impression that reactos activity is low. There
are
thousands of people who follow this project aren't on IRC and have no
idea
of what is going on.
- It arguably deters new people from joining because they can't
really get to grips with the project without becoming a slave to IRC
- It means important discussions are missed, even by the core
team,
if they aren't watching the IRC chat 24/7 or miss a PM
I could go on and on with reasons of why you neglect the mailing lists
is so
harmful, but I fear no one will listen to my cries.
Maybe I should vent my frustration in IRC for the niche community, and
we
can all have an internal discussion about it???
As a undergraduate of CS I
subscribed to this mailing list a year or
two ago, hoping to keep informed about what's going on within the
project, and perhaps that someday I could find something that really
interests me and help it out. But according to Ged it is quite
frustrating that most people prefer IRC, for you know, we have 24 time
zones on earth and I'm on the opposite side from most people on this
project. The IRC is also potentially making the project
time-zone-restricted.
_______________________________________________
Ros-dev mailing list
Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
_______________________________________________
Ros-dev mailing list
Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
_______________________________________________
Ros-dev mailing list
Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
3:06 p.m.
It's not messy at all.
It's strange you think that because mailing lists work well for pretty much
every other project out there. Why is reactos different?
Considering the difficulty you seem to think it brings, I've easily read
pretty much all the emails on both ros-dev and ros-diffs every day for the
past 8 years.
I haven't looked at the IRC chat once this week, nor do I have an particular
interest to.
Ged.
-----Original Message-----
From: ros-dev-bounces(a)reactos.org [mailto:ros-dev-bounces@reactos.org] On
Behalf Of Kamil Hornicek
Sent: 27 October 2010 15:50
To: ReactOS Development List
Subject: Re: [ros-dev] Networking
"I regularly have email conversations with people interested in joining as
the [dev dash interest at reactos.org] mail address still forwards to me.
It's
really not that hard."
yeah and why do you hide them in your secret bubble??
no seriously. you can have private conversations via email.. but when
multiple people join in it gets messy very quickly. do you see how
ridiculously this message looks after few replies? html emails, citing over
and above the original text, lenghty signatures. it's pain to read this. as
for being hidden the irc channel is clearly mentioned on the web page so
it's not like we are going undercover. as I said before - if you can find
the mailing list, you can find the irc.
k.
----- Original Message -----
From: Ged Murphy
To: 'ReactOS Development List'
Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2010 4:37 PM
Subject: Re: [ros-dev] Networking
I wasn't referring to this particular request, I'm just making a general
point.
Reactos likes to hide itself away from the world in its little IRC bubble.
This is great if you're a private group but not when you're a public entity
trying to attract outside interest.
Even the website is full of incorrect info.
How on earth reactos is meant to attract people is beyond me.
Ged.
p.s. I regularly have email conversations with people interested in joining
as the [dev dash interest at reactos.org] mail address still forwards to me.
It's really not that hard.
From: ros-dev-bounces(a)reactos.org [mailto:ros-dev-bounces@reactos.org] On
Behalf Of Olaf Siejka
Sent: 27 October 2010 15:22
To: ReactOS Development List
Subject: Re: [ros-dev] Networking
Look, before you guys start venting off, please at least try to understand
what are you really getting mad about. As much as you seem to hate
communicating via IRC, personally i see no other way of introducing someone
to ROS fundamentals, including (but not limited to):
- necessary tools
- checkout layount
- compilation commands
- vm setup
- debug setup
and many many more. I need at least 30-60 minutes to pass this information
via irc, as well as get immediate feedback on any problems. But no! This
undermines the purpose of THIS maillist!!!!
Dou you REALLY want me to do it via ros-dev maillist??!!!
2010/10/27 cheer_xiao <xiaqqaix(a)gmail.com>
On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 9:52 PM, Ged Murphy <gedmurphy(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Aagghhhhh!!! Why is everything always done over
IRC????
The neglection of the reactos mailing lists is one of this _big_ things
this
project does wrong.
- It forces the community into a sort of hidden niche group and
alienates people who don't use IRC
- It gives the impression that reactos activity is low. There are
thousands of people who follow this project aren't on IRC and have no idea
of what is going on.
- It arguably deters new people from joining because they can't
really get to grips with the project without becoming a slave to IRC
- It means important discussions are missed, even by the core
team,
if they aren't watching the IRC chat 24/7 or miss a PM
I could go on and on with reasons of why you neglect the mailing lists is
so
harmful, but I fear no one will listen to my cries.
Maybe I should vent my frustration in IRC for the niche community, and we
can all have an internal discussion about it???
As a undergraduate of CS I
subscribed to this mailing list a year or
two ago, hoping to keep informed about what's going on within the
project, and perhaps that someday I could find something that really
interests me and help it out. But according to Ged it is quite
frustrating that most people prefer IRC, for you know, we have 24 time
zones on earth and I'm on the opposite side from most people on this
project. The IRC is also potentially making the project
time-zone-restricted.
_______________________________________________
Ros-dev mailing list
Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
_______________________________________________
Ros-dev mailing list
Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
_______________________________________________
Ros-dev mailing list
Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
3:17 p.m.
" Considering the difficulty you seem to think it brings, I've easily read
pretty much all the emails on both ros-dev and ros-diffs every day for the
past 8 years."
considering nothing is being posted here it's not that big of an achievment.
about the IRC bit.. you were there for a long long time back when you were
more active but I understand that you don't have any urge to care about it
now. what is the point? also not to nitpick but you certainly did look at
the irc chat and you also wrote something...
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ged Murphy" <gedmurphy(a)gmail.com>
To: "'ReactOS Development List'" <ros-dev(a)reactos.org>
Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2010 5:06 PM
Subject: Re: [ros-dev] Networking
It's not messy at all.
It's strange you think that because mailing lists work well for pretty
much
every other project out there. Why is reactos different?
Considering the difficulty you seem to think it brings, I've easily read
pretty much all the emails on both ros-dev and ros-diffs every day for the
past 8 years.
I haven't looked at the IRC chat once this week, nor do I have an
particular
interest to.
Ged.
-----Original Message-----
From: ros-dev-bounces(a)reactos.org [mailto:ros-dev-bounces@reactos.org] On
Behalf Of Kamil Hornicek
Sent: 27 October 2010 15:50
To: ReactOS Development List
Subject: Re: [ros-dev] Networking
"I regularly have email conversations with people interested in joining as
the [dev dash interest at reactos.org] mail address still forwards to me.
It's
really not that hard."
yeah and why do you hide them in your secret bubble??
no seriously. you can have private conversations via email.. but when
multiple people join in it gets messy very quickly. do you see how
ridiculously this message looks after few replies? html emails, citing
over
and above the original text, lenghty signatures. it's pain to read this.
as
for being hidden the irc channel is clearly mentioned on the web page so
it's not like we are going undercover. as I said before - if you can find
the mailing list, you can find the irc.
k.
----- Original Message -----
From: Ged Murphy
To: 'ReactOS Development List'
Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2010 4:37 PM
Subject: Re: [ros-dev] Networking
I wasn't referring to this particular request, I'm just making a general
point.
Reactos likes to hide itself away from the world in its little IRC bubble.
This is great if you're a private group but not when you're a public
entity
trying to attract outside interest.
Even the website is full of incorrect info.
How on earth reactos is meant to attract people is beyond me.
Ged.
p.s. I regularly have email conversations with people interested in
joining
as the [dev dash interest at reactos.org] mail address still forwards to
me.
It's really not that hard.
From: ros-dev-bounces(a)reactos.org [mailto:ros-dev-bounces@reactos.org] On
Behalf Of Olaf Siejka
Sent: 27 October 2010 15:22
To: ReactOS Development List
Subject: Re: [ros-dev] Networking
Look, before you guys start venting off, please at least try to understand
what are you really getting mad about. As much as you seem to hate
communicating via IRC, personally i see no other way of introducing
someone
to ROS fundamentals, including (but not limited to):
- necessary tools
- checkout layount
- compilation commands
- vm setup
- debug setup
and many many more. I need at least 30-60 minutes to pass this information
via irc, as well as get immediate feedback on any problems. But no! This
undermines the purpose of THIS maillist!!!!
Dou you REALLY want me to do it via ros-dev maillist??!!!
2010/10/27 cheer_xiao <xiaqqaix(a)gmail.com>
On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 9:52 PM, Ged Murphy <gedmurphy(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Aagghhhhh!!! Why is everything always done over
IRC????
The neglection of the reactos mailing lists is one of this _big_ things
this
project does wrong.
- It forces the community into a sort of hidden niche group and
alienates people who don't use IRC
- It gives the impression that reactos activity is low. There
are
thousands of people who follow this project aren't on IRC and have no
idea
of what is going on.
- It arguably deters new people from joining because they can't
really get to grips with the project without becoming a slave to IRC
- It means important discussions are missed, even by the core
team,
if they aren't watching the IRC chat 24/7 or miss a PM
I could go on and on with reasons of why you neglect the mailing lists is
so
harmful, but I fear no one will listen to my cries.
Maybe I should vent my frustration in IRC for the niche community, and we
can all have an internal discussion about it???
As a undergraduate of CS I
subscribed to this mailing list a year or
two ago, hoping to keep informed about what's going on within the
project, and perhaps that someday I could find something that really
interests me and help it out. But according to Ged it is quite
frustrating that most people prefer IRC, for you know, we have 24 time
zones on earth and I'm on the opposite side from most people on this
project. The IRC is also potentially making the project
time-zone-restricted.
_______________________________________________
Ros-dev mailing list
Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
_______________________________________________
Ros-dev mailing list
Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
_______________________________________________
Ros-dev mailing list
Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
_______________________________________________
Ros-dev mailing list
Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
3:20 p.m.
"considering nothing is being posted here it's not that big of an
achievment."
sorry.. should have been "considering nothing is being posted here *apart
from an occasional drama* it's not that big of an achievment."
4:08 p.m.
Hi!
I agree with Ged.
Kamil Hornicek wrote:
about the IRC bit.. you were there for a long long
time back when you were
more active but I understand that you don't have any urge to care about it
now. what is the point?
The point is, that it's difficult for people outside the 'niche group'
to know what happens here. Please do not suggest to hang on IRC.
Reading it, where useful messages are heavily intermixed with noise,
is painful.
4:39 p.m.
Op 27-10-2010 18:08, Dmitry Gorbachev schreef:
The point is, that it's difficult for people
outside the 'niche group'
to know what happens here. Please do not suggest to hang on IRC.
Reading it, where useful messages are heavily intermixed with noise,
is painful.
Some kind of 'daily chatlog' for a public ROS IRC channel, so people can
catch up in their own time rather than in real time? Ofcourse you don't
want everything archived, it would discourage private discussions etc.
4:49 p.m.
I believe that would be a violation of freenode's policies if the nicks are
not anonymized.
On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 11:39 AM, Bernd Blaauw <bblaauw(a)home.nl> wrote:
Op 27-10-2010 18:08, Dmitry Gorbachev schreef:
The point is, that it's difficult for people outside the 'niche group'
to know what happens here. Please do not suggest
to hang on IRC.
Reading it, where useful messages are heavily intermixed with noise,
is painful.
Some kind of 'daily chatlog' for a public ROS IRC channel, so people can
catch up in their own time rather than in real time? Ofcourse you don't want
everything archived, it would discourage private discussions etc.
_______________________________________________
Ros-dev mailing list
Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
5:17 p.m.
create a wiki page and post the link everytime someone
needs that
introduction
I am sorry, my cloning machine is currently out of order and i`m stuck with
only myself. Its getting hard to keep several things at order, also i dont
see many volounteers, willing to help us out...
Again, my proposal regarding irc was strictly limited to what i explained in
my previous message. Please do not escalate it into quarel regarding project
communication. This thread was dedicated to our new guest and his possible
work on ROS networking. It is not very polite to hijack it for own opinions
on something completely unrelated.
I am sorry, Oleg, it should not have happened.
5:48 p.m.
+1 to Olaf
i was going to say that too
On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 7:17 PM, Olaf Siejka <caemyr(a)gmail.com> wrote:
create a wiki
page and post the link everytime someone needs that
introduction
I am sorry, my cloning machine is currently out of order and i`m stuck with
only myself. Its getting hard to keep several things at order, also i dont
see many volounteers, willing to help us out...
Again, my proposal regarding irc was strictly limited to what i explained
in my previous message. Please do not escalate it into quarel regarding
project communication. This thread was dedicated to our new guest and his
possible work on ROS networking. It is not very polite to hijack it for own
opinions on something completely unrelated.
I am sorry, Oleg, it should not have happened.
_______________________________________________
Ros-dev mailing list
Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
28 Oct
28 Oct
8:42 a.m.
My humble message seems to generate big flame :) Olaf - thank you, I will
join IRC if I need to ask something about compiling, however ReactOS really
looks very easy to build. I just downloaded RosBE, installed it, and that's
it. I have yet to figure out how to test better (going to try different
virtual machines), but that's not a big problem.
I will keep all development related issues on this mailing list as you wish.
On my dayjob access to IRC is also very problematic.
// Oleg Baikalow
2010/10/27 Olaf Siejka <caemyr(a)gmail.com>
create a wiki
page and post the link everytime someone needs that
introduction
I am sorry, my cloning machine is currently out of order and i`m stuck with
only myself. Its getting hard to keep several things at order, also i dont
see many volounteers, willing to help us out...
Again, my proposal regarding irc was strictly limited to what i explained
in my previous message. Please do not escalate it into quarel regarding
project communication. This thread was dedicated to our new guest and his
possible work on ROS networking. It is not very polite to hijack it for own
opinions on something completely unrelated.
I am sorry, Oleg, it should not have happened.
_______________________________________________
Ros-dev mailing list
Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
11:11 p.m.
New subject: Re : Networking
Hello and welcome Oleg.
If you have problems to access IRC using regular clients,
you can use freenode's webchat. All you need is a javascript enabled browser.
http://webchat.freenode.net/
Kind regards,
Sylvain Petreolle
De : Oleg Baikalow <obaikalow(a)gmail.com>
À : ReactOS Development List <ros-dev(a)reactos.org>
Envoyé le : Jeu 28 octobre 2010, 10h 42min 12s
Objet : Re: [ros-dev] Networking
My humble message seems to generate big flame :) Olaf - thank you, I will join
IRC if I need to ask something about compiling, however ReactOS really looks
very easy to build. I just downloaded RosBE, installed it, and that's it. I have
yet to figure out how to test better (going to try different virtual machines),
but that's not a big problem.
I will keep all development related issues on this mailing list as you wish. On
my dayjob access to IRC is also very problematic.
// Oleg Baikalow
2010/10/27 Olaf Siejka <caemyr(a)gmail.com>
> create a wiki page and post the link everytime someone needs that
introduction
I am sorry, my cloning machine is currently out of order and i`m stuck with only
myself. Its getting hard to keep several things at order, also i dont see many
volounteers, willing to help us out...
Again, my proposal regarding irc was strictly limited to what i explained in my
previous message. Please do not escalate it into quarel regarding project
communication. This thread was dedicated to our new guest and his possible work
on ROS networking. It is not very polite to hijack it for own opinions on
something completely unrelated.
I am sorry, Oleg, it should not have happened.
_______________________________________________
Ros-dev mailing list
Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
6 Nov
6 Nov
6:36 p.m.
I see a branch was created with a funny name :). I asked Alexey to move
stuff from Alex's branch too, and I am currently researching what numerous
"aicom-*" branches contain.
It's a lot of work, so expect big commits in the beginning of december,
before that only preliminary and organization stuff I will do. I will keep
you informed about my plans, problems and progress here.
// Oleg Baikalow
2010/10/28 Oleg Baikalow <obaikalow(a)gmail.com>
My humble message seems to generate big flame :) Olaf
- thank you, I will
join IRC if I need to ask something about compiling, however ReactOS really
looks very easy to build. I just downloaded RosBE, installed it, and that's
it. I have yet to figure out how to test better (going to try different
virtual machines), but that's not a big problem.
I will keep all development related issues on this mailing list as you
wish. On my dayjob access to IRC is also very problematic.
// Oleg Baikalow
2010/10/27 Olaf Siejka <caemyr(a)gmail.com>
create a
wiki page and post the link everytime someone needs that
introduction
I am sorry, my cloning machine is currently out of order and i`m stuck
with only myself. Its getting hard to keep several things at order, also i
dont see many volounteers, willing to help us out...
Again, my proposal regarding irc was strictly limited to what i explained
in my previous message. Please do not escalate it into quarel regarding
project communication. This thread was dedicated to our new guest and his
possible work on ROS networking. It is not very polite to hijack it for own
opinions on something completely unrelated.
I am sorry, Oleg, it should not have happened.
7:08 p.m.
Sorry for not getting back to you sooner. I had some issues sending to the mailing list
after I moved to my reactos.org address. But (if you're reading this) I've since
resolved those issues.
Here is a summary of my branches:
tcp-rewrite-branch: A branch which aims to replace our OSKit-based TCP implementation with
a lwIP-based implementation. Current problems are very low throughput (~10x slower than
oskittcp) and listen/accept issues.
aicom-network-branch: A branch with a few NDIS changes (unfinished), but more importantly
all of Alex's changes merged and several fixes to them. Ws2_32.dll in this branch is
ws2_32_new.dll in trunk. Ws2_32.dll doesn't work in this branch because there is still
some registry configuration that needs to be done for the Winsock providers catalog.
Mswsock.dll in this branch is the replacement for msafd.dll in trunk. It has some problems
with async selects but that's about it (to my knowledge). Simple applications such as
rapps and dwnl work, but more complex applications like firefox and mirc are broken. The
ws2help.dll from Alex's branch has already been merged to trunk and this branch. I
found it is easiest to work on mswsock.dll using ws2_32.dll from trunk (catalog.c needs to
be changed to look for mswsock.dll instead of msafd.dll).
aicom-hardware-fun: Not a networking branch
Please don't merge from Alex's branch for the Winsock items. Instead, use
aicom-network-branch because it has many fixes by Art Yerkes and I. Feel free to review
our patches if you'd like.
Thanks,
Cameron Gutman (aicom)
On Nov 6, 2010, at 2:36 PM, Oleg Baikalow wrote:
I see a branch was created with a funny name :). I
asked Alexey to move stuff from Alex's branch too, and I am currently researching what
numerous "aicom-*" branches contain.
It's a lot of work, so expect big commits in the beginning of december, before that
only preliminary and organization stuff I will do. I will keep you informed about my
plans, problems and progress here.
// Oleg Baikalow
2010/10/28 Oleg Baikalow <obaikalow(a)gmail.com>
_______________________________________________
Ros-dev mailing list
Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
27 Oct
27 Oct
4:46 p.m.
Hi,
I agree with Ged as well (I would tend to say as usual).
I would even go farther (and here real drama starts). When I see what is said on IRC, I
think being off IRC can just be good for health. This helps them not reading stupid
remarks or childish ones (one person may feel really concerned about that...).
Since the begin of my holidays, I haven't come on IRC. I don't feel more stupid. I
just feel well.
IRC should be kept for precise purposes: "emergency", minor stuff, meetings. All
the rest should be moved back to the appropriate place: boards, ML, mails.
As a reminder: I can be reached with the mail address I am using here, or via boards MP
(account Heis Spiter), or on IRC, just leave a message on ZNC (I'll answer when
available, which is close to email/ML purpose btw).
Communicating is definitely not the best part of the ReactOS project...
Regards,
P. Schweitzer
2:18 p.m.
On the other hand discussing things in realtime has its advantages.
As for IRC being hidden and alientating people. You can say the same thing about the ML. I
for one feel better talking to niche group of people than to a public list where I
don't even know if the people I need to talk to are subscribed. Also if someone is
able to subscribe to the ML I'm sure he can handle IRC. I'm not saying everything
should be done over IRC but I'm saying it's pretty useful.
Where I see the real problem: any post to ML gets an instant "join IRC" reply. I
think we can and should do better than that. If someone posts here we should keep it
here.
Kamil
----- Original Message -----
From: Ged Murphy
To: 'ReactOS Development List'
Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2010 3:52 PM
Subject: Re: [ros-dev] Networking
Aagghhhhh!!! Why is everything always done over IRC????
The neglection of the reactos mailing lists is one of this _big_ things this project
does wrong.
- It forces the community into a sort of hidden niche group and alienates
people who don't use IRC
- It gives the impression that reactos activity is low. There are thousands of
people who follow this project aren't on IRC and have no idea of what is going on.
- It arguably deters new people from joining because they can't really get
to grips with the project without becoming a slave to IRC
- It means important discussions are missed, even by the core team, if they
aren't watching the IRC chat 24/7 or miss a PM
I could go on and on with reasons of why you neglect the mailing lists is so harmful,
but I fear no one will listen to my cries.
Maybe I should vent my frustration in IRC for the niche community, and we can all have
an internal discussion about it???
Ged.
From: ros-dev-bounces(a)reactos.org [mailto:ros-dev-bounces@reactos.org] On Behalf Of
Aleksey Bragin
Sent: 27 October 2010 13:54
To: ReactOS Development List
Subject: Re: [ros-dev] Networking
Yes, please feel free to join our channel when you have any questions. I will create a
branch for your coming work, if you like.
Thanks!
WBR,
Aleksey.
On Oct 27, 2010, at 2:47 PM, Olaf Siejka wrote:
Hiya
Discussing issues on ros-dev maillist is fine. I asked Aleksiej to pass you the irc
channel discussion mostly for helping you out with basic ROS stuff like compilation, VM
setup and testing issues.
Regards
2010/10/27 Oleg Baikalow <obaikalow(a)gmail.com>
Hi,
I see you're busy discussing other stuff and my message went unnoticed :) I made a
look to existing network branches, found many of them. LWIP is interesting. Alexey said
the best way is to join your irc channel. I will try to occasionally join, but in your
project, mailing list must be a primary point of discussion not irc channel.
I think I start from making a simple, but robust tcpip driver (with help of numerously
available source code of tcp/ip protocol implementations). Hopefully you could give me
branch access, it's gonna be hard to develop it with patches.
// Oleg Baikalow.
P.S. I really like your "kernel coding style", quite rare to see that in
opensource projects. Most of foss projects utilize linux-alike stlye, whic is harder to
read and not that clean.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
_______________________________________________
Ros-dev mailing list
Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
6:36 p.m.
I still follow the discussions here.
Never on IRC, sorry.
No free PC access on the job, just one of the reasons ..
Cheers,
Peter
27.10.2010 15:52, Ged Murphy:
Aagghhhhh!!! Why is everything always done over IRC????
The neglection of the reactos mailing lists is one of this _/big/_
things this project does wrong.
-It forces the community into a sort of hidden niche group and
alienates people who don't use IRC
-It gives the impression that reactos activity is low. There are
thousands of people who follow this project aren't on IRC and have no
idea of what is going on.
-It arguably deters new people from joining because they can't really
get to grips with the project without becoming a slave to IRC
-It means important discussions are missed, even by the core team, if
they aren't watching the IRC chat 24/7 or miss a PM
I could go on and on with reasons of why you neglect the mailing lists
is so harmful, but I fear no one will listen to my cries.
Maybe I should vent my frustration in IRC for the niche community, and
we can all have an internal discussion about it???
Ged.
5162
days inactive
5172
days old
28 comments
17 participants
participants (17)
-
Adam Kachwalla -
Aleksey Bragin -
Bernd Blaauw -
breakoutbox -
Cameron Gutman -
cheer_xiao -
Danny Götte -
Dmitry Gorbachev -
Ged Murphy -
Javier Agustìn Fernàndez Arroyo -
Jérôme Gardou -
Kamil Hornicek -
Olaf Siejka -
Oleg Baikalow -
Pierre Schweitzer -
Sylvain Petreolle -
Zachary Gorden