Hi,
It was Steven's idea that I should post this emai and I agreedl, so please don't take it as my personal childish attempt to get attention, unless you find that both I and Steven (our Project Coordinator) are children.
Steven has recently expressed his opinion that: (modified quote so that "your" -> "my")
"My arrogant attitude hurts this project more then any amount of code or patches I commit will ever help it."
Therefore, since:
1) I really care about this project 2) I don't wish to spend time writing useless code (since no amount of code will help the project more then I hurt it, then the code is useless, like heating a room where the windows are open in winter).
I think it's important to know if this is a public opinion or not, so I am opening a public ML vote. If it is, then I will gladly leave and stop hurting this project, since those were not my intentions when I joined. If this is the case, then I only regret for having stayed here so long and done nothing but hurt the project for almost two years now, and I'm sorry.
[ ] Alex's arrogant attitude hurts this project more then his code helps it. Alex should therefore leave, so that the project can stop being hurt. [ ] Alex's arrogant attitude is annoying at times but his presence in this project significantly helps it grow and move towards reaching its goals, and does not hurt the project.
Best regards, Alex Ionescu
[ ] Alex's arrogant attitude hurts this project more then his code helps it. Alex should therefore leave, so that the project can stop being hurt. [*] Alex's arrogant attitude is annoying at times but his presence in this project significantly helps it grow and move towards reaching its goals, and does not hurt the project.
On Sun, 04 Dec 2005 21:16, Witukind wrote:
I think the project would stagnate without Alex.
Seconded.
Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
Witukind wrote:
I think the project would stagnate without Alex.
I doubt that'd be a problem as it didn't before he joined, so why should it now? People join and leave once in a while, no reason to stop. It's not like he's the only person with knowledge. This does *not* mean that I want him to leave.
Arrogance certainly is an issue but I don't really care as I usually ignore those moments and don't comment on them, everyone has his/her flaws. What bothers me more is the "ownership" of code issue. These large "rewrites" of functions/files is annoying, especially when holding everything back for months and then committing everything in one single huge commit (I'm not talking about headers fixes, because those certainly do require loads of changes in one commit). This of course is a reason then to claim (full) ownership of the code, and dare you touch it in such a way that it's less close to windows. For me, I do *not* want to clone internal things 100%, there are many reasons why this is a bad idea. However, since I'd write code that wouldn't be "perfect" in this aspect, I no longer work on the kernel as I'd interfere with this attitude. I wouldn't want to submit a patch and seeing everything gone a month later just because it wasn't a next to perfect clone of the original code, even if it worked perfectly and as expected. That's also one of the reasons I abandoned win32k, i just wouldn't want to copy every little detail just because it "must be perfect" because MS wrote it. This leads me to the constant IDA/ASM digging in MS binaries, I don't think it's good for the project to copy every little detail based on unnecessary reverse engineering. Testing and thinking about things a little longer is a good method to being able to implement many things, of course not all, especially completely undocumented interfaces. And just because MS did something a specific way doesn't mean they're god and that it's perfect. Also the frequent "Cutler adoration" on IRC is *very* annoying to me, he is *not* god.
This are my 2 cents, I don't want anyone to take it personally, especially Alex. I just won't consider ReactOS a clean-room implementation anymore if this trend continues, which would make me leave due to legal issues.
- Thomas
P.S.: I do *not* oppose reverse engineering per se, there are situations where it's necessary (in order to accomplish compatibility)
Thomas Weidenmueller wrote:
Witukind wrote:
I think the project would stagnate without Alex.
I doubt that'd be a problem as it didn't before he joined, so why should it now? People join and leave once in a while, no reason to stop. It's not like he's the only person with knowledge. This does *not* mean that I want him to leave.
Arrogance certainly is an issue but I don't really care as I usually ignore those moments and don't comment on them, everyone has his/her flaws. What bothers me more is the "ownership" of code issue. These large "rewrites" of functions/files is annoying, especially when holding everything back for months and then committing everything in one single huge commit
I now have a local SVN setup to handle my incremental patches. Other developers do not. Other developers still commit code in one single huge commit, yet you don't complain about it.
(I'm not talking about headers fixes, because those certainly do require loads of changes in one commit). This of course is a reason then to claim (full) ownership of the code, and dare you touch it in such a way that it's less close to windows. For me, I do *not* want to clone internal things 100%, there are many reasons why this is a bad idea. However, since I'd write code that wouldn't be "perfect" in this aspect, I no longer work on the kernel as I'd interfere with this attitude.
You no longer work on the kernel because you don't have a lot of time on your hands; you've told me yourself. I think you're being a bit hypocritcal with your argument. You commited a pretty large handle table implementation which we talked about at length. You made it clear it was not Windows internal compatible. What were my comments? Did I not praise you for it? Did I not appreciate you for it? It's been in the tree for a year. Have I ever made an attempt to "rewrite it"? Did I ever said I would?
How about when I asked you to improve it with some new code. What was your response? It was "I don't have time with university", not "you want it to be perfect, like windows".
Yes, I hated your Object Capture patch because it wasn't using a public capture structure and we got into a big argument about it, but you might want to remember how much I've appreciated and loved your ExHandle patch.
I wouldn't want to submit a patch and seeing everything gone a month later just because it wasn't a next to perfect clone of the original code, even if it worked perfectly and as expected. That's also
one of the reasons I abandoned win32k, i just wouldn't want to copy every little detail just because it "must be perfect" because MS wrote it.
I never had anything to do with win32k. I barely know how it works, and you had win32k rewrites ongoing before I even joined the project. How can you possibly blame this on me, when you publically stated OTHER reasons for dropping win32k?
This leads me to the constant IDA/ASM digging in MS binaries, I don't think it's good for the project to copy every little detail based on unnecessary reverse engineering. Testing and thinking about things a little longer is a good method to being able to implement many things, of course not all, especially completely undocumented interfaces.
Point taken.
And just because MS did something a specific way doesn't mean they're god and that it's perfect.
I think you and I can both find several instances where we made fun of the way MS wrote a certain piece of code, and found better ways to do it. So you can't accuse me of that.
Also the frequent "Cutler adoration" on IRC is *very* annoying to me, he is *not* god.
You aren't seriously bringing this up are you. What's next? An email to KJK saying "Cheesecake is not the official food of ReactOS damn it, I HATE CHEESECAKE!!!"?
This are my 2 cents, I don't want anyone to take it personally, especially Alex. I just won't consider ReactOS a clean-room implementation anymore if this trend continues, which would make me leave due to legal issues.
- Thomas
P.S.: I do *not* oppose reverse engineering per se, there are situations where it's necessary (in order to accomplish compatibility)
Those are the only times I've used IDA.
Best regards, Alex Ionescu
Alex Ionescu wrote:
I now have a local SVN setup to handle my incremental patches. Other developers do not. Other developers still commit code in one single huge commit, yet you don't complain about it.
You don't anymore which is a good thing, I shouldn't have brought this up again because it's no longer current.
You no longer work on the kernel because you don't have a lot of time on your hands; you've told me yourself. I think you're being a bit hypocritcal with your argument. You commited a pretty large handle table implementation which we talked about at length. You made it clear it was not Windows internal compatible. What were my comments? Did I not praise you for it? Did I not appreciate you for it? It's been in the tree for a year. Have I ever made an attempt to "rewrite it"? Did I ever said I would?
The time issue is rather recent. But seeing what other parts of the kernel have completely be "rewritten" (don't get me wrong, it's not a bad thing) makes me thinking that if I write a not-so-close-to-MS implementation, there's a good chance it will be completley replaced anytime soon, so why start at all. This might not be true but this is the impression I got over the last year or so.
How about when I asked you to improve it with some new code. What was your response? It was "I don't have time with university", not "you want it to be perfect, like windows".
Again, time is a recent issue.
Yes, I hated your Object Capture patch because it wasn't using a public capture structure and we got into a big argument about it, but you might want to remember how much I've appreciated and loved your ExHandle patch.
I just don't understand the point in duplicating a completely internal function just because there's on structure (accidently?) made public that can't even be used by 3rd party software. I wouldn't have cared much if the new version didn't introduce so many bugs. However, that's history and I don't think it's about loving or hating someone else's patches.
I never had anything to do with win32k. I barely know how it works, and you had win32k rewrites ongoing before I even joined the project. How can you possibly blame this on me, when you publically stated OTHER reasons for dropping win32k?
You said that you think it's important to make the (completely undocumented) system calls to win32k (NtUser, NtGdi) binary compatible. I absolutely don't agree with this because there's no need for doing this. However, I do agree with you on NtD3d and NtDd because those are actually documented. And I don't blame you on this, there's other more important reasons, that's why i said "one of the reasons".
You aren't seriously bringing this up are you. What's next? An email to KJK saying "Cheesecake is not the official food of ReactOS damn it, I HATE CHEESECAKE!!!"?
I'm bringing this up because I find it extremely annoying, about as much annoying as those "links" posted from time to time. Gladly that seems to have reduced recently. Sorry, but it just adds up when everytime you look at the irc channel it's all about Cutler. There are also other issues that I found annoying, and I'm certain that there are many things people find annoying about me as well. We all have our flaws.
I just wrote down what bothered me, I wouldn't have done it if you hadn't "begged" for it. I'm also sorry that sometimes I tend to be rather resentful and dig out old issues. I don't intend to comment further on this topic as it most likely would lead to unnecessary disagreements (again). I assumed that you also expected critizism when posting about such a sensitive topic.
- Thomas
I've been reading this list for about 2.5 years now, I have stuff as far back in my archive as when RMS posted to the channel regarding GPL issues with drivers and even before that, certainly before Alex even joined the project, and I have to say that NEVER in that history have I seen straight flaming between developers like this on the public list. Now correct me if I'm wrong, but it looks like its some of the older developers all being really annoyed with a newer developer (aka Alex,) while the newer developers while still annoyed deal with him. Believe me when I say this, I have been on a team before where the old guys got fed up with the new guys, and it only took a few a short time for the team to fail, with the old guys forking off and making their own new group and the new guys doing the same. Project forking in the case of ReactOS would be fatal, it would mean tons of duplicated effort and years added to the time frame for a working product. And quite frankly from what I've seen it appears that Alex has enough people behind him as well as technical ability to successfully operate an active fork, I'm not saying he would do this I'm just saying he has the ability if he wanted to. I personally think that this is very unprofessional behavior, this should be resolved over something like skype not a public channel originally setup to aid COLLABORATION. You guys know that there are people from MSDN that read this list and post about it in their blogs right? Anyway guys, my point here is this isn't just the fault of Alex, it is EVERYONES fault, work it out, I want to see ReactOS 1.0, not ReactOS 0.5 and <reactos fork name here> 0.5
Hi, I joined before Alex, so according to your theory I should hate him, but it's not the case :-) There were small flamewars previously also -- but you have to take in account that project was smaller back in that time, I think.
Anyway of course it's also a style, and I personally speak with people in their own style - I don't know why, but it happens to me naturally. Official? Ok, we speak official. Inofficially, friendly? No problem. Arguing - great (unless it starts hurting people, then it's bad). I like to argue sometimes, but of course I mean polite arguing. Like about politics with Steven (Stalin vs. Hitler is my favorite topic), about religion with Alex might be. All people have different point of views, and I respect them, and I like to learn something new during arguing - that's not bad.
As for voting, I like KJK very much:
Is the abuse of voting lame and boring? [] Yes
WBR, Aleksey. P.S. Please, really, getting all this stuff(read: s..t) into mailing list is not a good for project's image. Many of us have skype, icq, emails, etc. It should be quite enough. And we have #reactos at last/ at first :) And one more thing - I miss GvG in #reactos ;)
On Dec 4, 2005, at 9:35 PM, Nate DeSimone wrote:
I've been reading this list for about 2.5 years now, I have stuff as far back in my archive as when RMS posted to the channel regarding GPL issues with drivers and even before that, certainly before Alex even joined the project, and I have to say that NEVER in that history have I seen straight flaming between developers like this on the public list. Now correct me if I'm wrong, but it looks like its some of the older developers all being really annoyed with a newer developer (aka Alex,) while the newer developers while still annoyed deal with him. Believe me when I say this, I have been on a team before where the old guys got fed up with the new guys, and it only took a few a short time for the team to fail, with the old guys forking off and making their own new group and the new guys doing the same. Project forking in the case of ReactOS would be fatal, it would mean tons of duplicated effort and years added to the time frame for a working product. And quite frankly from what I've seen it appears that Alex has enough people behind him as well as technical ability to successfully operate an active fork, I'm not saying he would do this I'm just saying he has the ability if he wanted to. I personally think that this is very unprofessional behavior, this should be resolved over something like skype not a public channel originally setup to aid COLLABORATION. You guys know that there are people from MSDN that read this list and post about it in their blogs right? Anyway guys, my point here is this isn't just the fault of Alex, it is EVERYONES fault, work it out, I want to see ReactOS 1.0, not ReactOS 0.5 and <reactos fork name here> 0.5
Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
Hi,
On 12/4/05, Aleksey Bragin aleksey@studiocerebral.com wrote:
about politics with Steven (Stalin vs. Hitler is my favorite topic), about religion with Alex might be. All people have different point of
Like I said on IRC, we all go off topic sometimes and there is nothing wrong with that. I did not want to start a flame war and I would like to end it now. Alex has heard peoples views on many issues
And one more thing - I miss GvG in #reactos ;)
I do too, thats partly why I had the discussion with him. I think Exception, GvG and w3seek have thier own grivances with Alex that I hope can be resolved. I was not trying to drive him away, I have just felt a undertone of stress directed toward him and I thought attuide might have something to do with it. Each of the above listed slightly different things that bothered them and its up to them to work it out.
I know I do things that piss people off all the time (like suggesting Alex ask here how he is viewed). Knowning that GvG left #ReactOS because of it and seeing things the way I did bothered me but I did not handle it the right way and I am sorry for that. If I am doing something wrong, I want you to tell me and I will address it. I promise I will tone my language down and avoid a flamewar on the list in the future.
-- Steven Edwards - ReactOS and Wine developer
"There is one thing stronger than all the armies in the world, and that is an idea whose time has come." - Victor Hugo
From: Steven Edwards
Knowning that GvG left #ReactOS because of it
Just to make this absolutely clear: it was my own decision to leave #reactos, I'm not trying to shift responsibility to Alex ("he left me no other choice"), obviously I did have a choice. Basically, I just want to have fun coding a challenging project (yeah, I know, I'm a geek and proud of it) and hanging out in #reactos at times annoyed me so much that it took away some of the fun. Sometimes I do miss the nice contacts though, so perhaps I'll become a "regular" again later. In the mean time, if there's anything I can help with just drop me an email or contact me on MSN (userid is in my forum profile).
GvG
I joined before Alex, so according to your theory I should hate him, but it's not the case :-) There were small flamewars previously also -- but you have to take in account that project was smaller back in that time, I think.
Well I did say *some* older developers not all, I didn't want to mention names. You are right there have been small flame wars on the list before, but I remember them being more reserved.
All people have different point of views, and I respect them, and I like to learn something new during arguing - that's not bad.
I'm not saying that arguing is bad, if noone argued then the implementation would be crap, usually the best idea survives in a debate (not always of course, see elected officials.) But just throwing insults at each other doesn't help anything, expect perhaps breaking down relations between developers. All I'm asking is people work out their differences face to face, instead of throwing stuff over wall at each other in plain sight. And most importantly get over it and return to devoting time to coding instead of flaming.
I have been reading the mailing list for a long time now, and i have to say, i have recently noticed a building up of this childish crap. I was thinkin of tryin to work on the project a little, maybe even submitt a patch, but after reading all of this today (i haven't checked my mail in a while), im not sure i will. This isn't because of Alex. In my opinion, one dev shouldn't be the reason for a new dev beeing turned away from a project. I haven't seen everything that goes on, but from the way i have seen things, the lintch mob has been sent out jus because everyone doesn't always agree w/ one dev. An atitude of arragance may be hard to deal w/ at times, but when you make a big fuss about it, as it seems everyone has, your'e justifying it. Honestly, if there is going to be a big fuss about how he gets stuff done, why don't how everyone does things get brought into question? So Alex, how do you feel about how the other devs do things?
Brian wrote:
So Alex, how do you feel about how the other devs do things?
Haha..hi Brian :)
First of all, let me say that you shouldn't be discouraged by the endless tirades on the ML...I think they are signs of a healthy project..much like a couple arguing. It's not like all we do is argue in here.. we have sometimes up to 100 commits a day (which for a project this small, is a lot).
As for your question, it's simple to answer... people here do things in the following way: "Like they want to". And that's why I like ReactOS and a lot of devs like working here. Because there are no rules on how you should code, what you should code, if you should code, etc. Casper for example is very adamant about this (Note: I'm not trying to say there aren't any general rules, but nobody is going to tell you 'use spaces, not tabs' or 'write audio for 0.4.0, not video code!'). So I feel good that everyone can work at their own pace, in the way that they want.
OTOH, I think there needs to be better project management and a cooperation mentality, something akin to a real start-up software company. I have this dream where everyone is using Visual Studio Team System and writing patches for bug reports, using peer-review, managing meetings, doing nightly test builds, filling out test cases.... but I'm sure that would put many people off. (even though it would cut development time by a year at least)
Best regards, Alex Ionescu
See everyone, simple enough. I felt very happy with Alexs responce to my msg. Obiously he isn't as bad as most people you would encounter on the net ( and i have encountered my share of jerkoffs ). So if Alex is capable of speaking to a potential dev in such a good tone, how could it ever be a situation of his attitude chasing off new devs. And if it comes to old devs, they should be able to sho some maturity, and look at the problem from his point of view. This seems to be missing from the process. Surely someone is capable of being mature.
[*] Alex isn't the problem, maturity is...
Applause!
On 12/5/05, Brian briandabrain@gmail.com wrote:
See everyone, simple enough. I felt very happy with Alexs responce to my msg. Obiously he isn't as bad as most people you would encounter on the net ( and i have encountered my share of jerkoffs ). So if Alex is capable of speaking to a potential dev in such a good tone, how could it ever be a situation of his attitude chasing off new devs. And if it comes to old devs, they should be able to sho some maturity, and look at the problem from his point of view. This seems to be missing from the process. Surely someone is capable of being mature.
[*] Alex isn't the problem, maturity is...
Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
-- David Johnson http://www.davefilms.us Producer
OTOH, I think there needs to be better project management and a cooperation mentality, something akin to a real start-up software company. I have this dream where everyone is using Visual Studio Team System and writing patches for bug reports, using peer-review, managing meetings, doing nightly test builds, filling out test cases.... but I'm sure that would put many people off. (even though it would cut development time by a year at least)
Best regards, Alex Ionescu
Can you get Microsoft to donate licenses for VSTS to all ReactOS developers? ;-)
Casper
Maybe we could get a big company as a sponsor? I think, if we wrote to some companys like maybe IBM or so, we might find some good sponsors, who could maybe even provide us some full time coders. And this could really increase development speed. But maybe they just want to help us out with some software or who knows what. We just have to ask and we will get an answer.
Greets,
David Hinz
Casper Hornstrup schrieb:
OTOH, I think there needs to be better project management and a cooperation mentality, something akin to a real start-up software company. I have this dream where everyone is using Visual Studio Team System and writing patches for bug reports, using peer-review, managing meetings, doing nightly test builds, filling out test cases.... but I'm sure that would put many people off. (even though it would cut development time by a year at least)
Best regards, Alex Ionescu
Can you get Microsoft to donate licenses for VSTS to all ReactOS developers? ;-)
Casper
Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
I can see IBM supporting us, since their last Good OS, OS/2, is now efectively dead. I don't see some companies like Sun, or Novell, supporting us, since they already have a vested interest in an Operating System
What I'd really like to see are Hardware Manufacturers getting behind us. Realtek, nVIDIA, ATi, Intel, AMD, VIA, etc, could all be approached, and ask for collaboration on writing GPL Drivers (Although nVIDIA is notoriously skeptical about open-source)
On 12/5/05, David Hinz post.center@gmail.com wrote:
Maybe we could get a big company as a sponsor? I think, if we wrote to some companys like maybe IBM or so, we might find some good sponsors, who could maybe even provide us some full time coders. And this could really increase development speed. But maybe they just want to help us out with some software or who knows what. We just have to ask and we will get an answer.
Greets,
David Hinz
Casper Hornstrup schrieb:
OTOH, I think there needs to be better project management and a cooperation mentality, something akin to a real start-up software company. I have this dream where everyone is using Visual Studio Team System and writing patches for bug reports, using peer-review, managing meetings, doing nightly test builds, filling out test cases.... but I'm sure that would put many people off. (even though it would cut development time by a year at least)
Best regards, Alex Ionescu
Can you get Microsoft to donate licenses for VSTS to all ReactOS developers? ;-)
Casper
Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
-- "I had a handle on life, but then it broke"
Nivida will not agree on GPL licen for there drv linux people have try getting GPL drv from nivida and the answers have always be no.
----- Original Message ----- From: "TwoTailedFox" twotailedfox@gmail.com To: "ReactOS Development List" ros-dev@reactos.org Sent: den 5 December 2005 21:18 Subject: Re: [ros-dev] My attitude
I can see IBM supporting us, since their last Good OS, OS/2, is now efectively dead. I don't see some companies like Sun, or Novell, supporting us, since they already have a vested interest in an Operating System
What I'd really like to see are Hardware Manufacturers getting behind us. Realtek, nVIDIA, ATi, Intel, AMD, VIA, etc, could all be approached, and ask for collaboration on writing GPL Drivers (Although nVIDIA is notoriously skeptical about open-source)
On 12/5/05, David Hinz post.center@gmail.com wrote:
Maybe we could get a big company as a sponsor? I think, if we wrote to some companys like maybe IBM or so, we might find some good sponsors, who could maybe even provide us some full time coders. And this could really increase development speed. But maybe they just want to help us out with some software or who knows what. We just have to ask and we will get an answer.
Greets,
David Hinz
Casper Hornstrup schrieb:
OTOH, I think there needs to be better project management and a cooperation mentality, something akin to a real start-up software company. I have this dream where everyone is using Visual Studio Team System and writing patches for bug reports, using peer-review,
managing
meetings, doing nightly test builds, filling out test cases.... but
I'm
sure that would put many people off. (even though it would cut development time by a year at least)
Best regards, Alex Ionescu
Can you get Microsoft to donate licenses for VSTS to all ReactOS developers? ;-)
Casper
Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
-- "I had a handle on life, but then it broke"
Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
I think we might have good chances that IBM will help us, especially with the OS/2 subsystem. And if they still had their PC-branch, I would guarantee they would help us, just to show MS that nobody depends on them, but unfortunately they don't have it anymore... Anyway, I think IBM, Intel and maybe companys like Dell should be worth a try.
Greets,
David Hinz
Magnus Olsen schrieb:
Nivida will not agree on GPL licen for there drv linux people have try getting GPL drv from nivida and the answers have always be no.
----- Original Message ----- From: "TwoTailedFox" twotailedfox@gmail.com To: "ReactOS Development List" ros-dev@reactos.org Sent: den 5 December 2005 21:18 Subject: Re: [ros-dev] My attitude
I can see IBM supporting us, since their last Good OS, OS/2, is now efectively dead. I don't see some companies like Sun, or Novell, supporting us, since they already have a vested interest in an Operating System
What I'd really like to see are Hardware Manufacturers getting behind us. Realtek, nVIDIA, ATi, Intel, AMD, VIA, etc, could all be approached, and ask for collaboration on writing GPL Drivers (Although nVIDIA is notoriously skeptical about open-source)
On 12/5/05, David Hinz post.center@gmail.com wrote:
Maybe we could get a big company as a sponsor? I think, if we wrote to some companys like maybe IBM or so, we might find some good sponsors, who could maybe even provide us some full time coders. And this could really increase development speed. But maybe they just want to help us out with some software or who knows what. We just have to ask and we will get an answer.
Greets,
David Hinz
Casper Hornstrup schrieb:
OTOH, I think there needs to be better project management and a cooperation mentality, something akin to a real start-up software company. I have this dream where everyone is using Visual Studio Team System and writing patches for bug reports, using peer-review,
managing
meetings, doing nightly test builds, filling out test cases.... but
I'm
sure that would put many people off. (even though it would cut development time by a year at least)
Best regards, Alex Ionescu
Can you get Microsoft to donate licenses for VSTS to all ReactOS developers? ;-)
Casper
Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
-- "I had a handle on life, but then it broke"
Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
Dell I can't see as being agreeable loading a direct Windows Replacement, when most of their computers are shipped with Windows. They'd see a sizeable portion of their income dropped, if Microsoft decided to pull out of it.
IBM is currently being lobbied to make OS/2 Open-Source.. maybe WINE and ReactOS should chip in to that petition?
On 12/5/05, David Hinz post.center@gmail.com wrote:
I think we might have good chances that IBM will help us, especially with the OS/2 subsystem. And if they still had their PC-branch, I would guarantee they would help us, just to show MS that nobody depends on them, but unfortunately they don't have it anymore... Anyway, I think IBM, Intel and maybe companys like Dell should be worth a try.
Greets,
David Hinz
Magnus Olsen schrieb:
Nivida will not agree on GPL licen for there drv linux people have try getting GPL drv from nivida and the answers have always be no.
----- Original Message ----- From: "TwoTailedFox" twotailedfox@gmail.com To: "ReactOS Development List" ros-dev@reactos.org Sent: den 5 December 2005 21:18 Subject: Re: [ros-dev] My attitude
I can see IBM supporting us, since their last Good OS, OS/2, is now efectively dead. I don't see some companies like Sun, or Novell, supporting us, since they already have a vested interest in an Operating System
What I'd really like to see are Hardware Manufacturers getting behind us. Realtek, nVIDIA, ATi, Intel, AMD, VIA, etc, could all be approached, and ask for collaboration on writing GPL Drivers (Although nVIDIA is notoriously skeptical about open-source)
On 12/5/05, David Hinz post.center@gmail.com wrote:
Maybe we could get a big company as a sponsor? I think, if we wrote to some companys like maybe IBM or so, we might find some good sponsors, who could maybe even provide us some full time coders. And this could really increase development speed. But maybe they just want to help us out with some software or who knows what. We just have to ask and we will get an answer.
Greets,
David Hinz
Casper Hornstrup schrieb:
OTOH, I think there needs to be better project management and a cooperation mentality, something akin to a real start-up software company. I have this dream where everyone is using Visual Studio Team System and writing patches for bug reports, using peer-review,
managing
meetings, doing nightly test builds, filling out test cases.... but
I'm
sure that would put many people off. (even though it would cut development time by a year at least)
Best regards, Alex Ionescu
Can you get Microsoft to donate licenses for VSTS to all ReactOS developers? ;-)
Casper
Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
-- "I had a handle on life, but then it broke"
Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
-- "I had a handle on life, but then it broke"
Well, Dell is very mighty and they don't always agree with Microsofts opinions, so I would say it depends on the situation. And for OS/2, this would be a big help for the OS/2 subsystem, but I think they can't do it, as OS/2 includes some MS-code, and I don't know who owns which rights. But who knows, hope dies last...
Greets,
David Hinz
TwoTailedFox schrieb:
Dell I can't see as being agreeable loading a direct Windows Replacement, when most of their computers are shipped with Windows. They'd see a sizeable portion of their income dropped, if Microsoft decided to pull out of it.
IBM is currently being lobbied to make OS/2 Open-Source.. maybe WINE and ReactOS should chip in to that petition?
On 12/5/05, David Hinz post.center@gmail.com wrote:
I think we might have good chances that IBM will help us, especially with the OS/2 subsystem. And if they still had their PC-branch, I would guarantee they would help us, just to show MS that nobody depends on them, but unfortunately they don't have it anymore... Anyway, I think IBM, Intel and maybe companys like Dell should be worth a try.
Greets,
David Hinz
Magnus Olsen schrieb:
Nivida will not agree on GPL licen for there drv linux people have try getting GPL drv from nivida and the answers have always be no.
I'll disagree with this, Dell pays money for copies of the Windows Operating System, if a free, open source compatible clone were to come along, i think they'd jump on it in a heartbeat.
TwoTailedFox wrote:
Dell I can't see as being agreeable loading a direct Windows Replacement, when most of their computers are shipped with Windows. They'd see a sizeable portion of their income dropped, if Microsoft decided to pull out of it.
IBM is currently being lobbied to make OS/2 Open-Source.. maybe WINE and ReactOS should chip in to that petition?
On 12/5/05, David Hinz post.center@gmail.com wrote:
I think we might have good chances that IBM will help us, especially with the OS/2 subsystem. And if they still had their PC-branch, I would guarantee they would help us, just to show MS that nobody depends on them, but unfortunately they don't have it anymore... Anyway, I think IBM, Intel and maybe companys like Dell should be worth a try.
Greets,
David Hinz
Magnus Olsen schrieb:
Nivida will not agree on GPL licen for there drv linux people have try getting GPL drv from nivida and the answers have always be no.
----- Original Message ----- From: "TwoTailedFox" twotailedfox@gmail.com To: "ReactOS Development List" ros-dev@reactos.org Sent: den 5 December 2005 21:18 Subject: Re: [ros-dev] My attitude
I can see IBM supporting us, since their last Good OS, OS/2, is now efectively dead. I don't see some companies like Sun, or Novell, supporting us, since they already have a vested interest in an Operating System
What I'd really like to see are Hardware Manufacturers getting behind us. Realtek, nVIDIA, ATi, Intel, AMD, VIA, etc, could all be approached, and ask for collaboration on writing GPL Drivers (Although nVIDIA is notoriously skeptical about open-source)
On 12/5/05, David Hinz post.center@gmail.com wrote:
Maybe we could get a big company as a sponsor? I think, if we wrote to some companys like maybe IBM or so, we might find some good sponsors, who could maybe even provide us some full time coders. And this could really increase development speed. But maybe they just want to help us out with some software or who knows what. We just have to ask and we will get an answer.
Greets,
David Hinz
Casper Hornstrup schrieb:
>OTOH, I think there needs to be better project management and a >cooperation mentality, something akin to a real start-up software >company. I have this dream where everyone is using Visual Studio Team >System and writing patches for bug reports, using peer-review, > >
managing
>meetings, doing nightly test builds, filling out test cases.... but > >
I'm
>sure that would put many people off. (even though it would cut >development time by a year at least) > >Best regards, >Alex Ionescu > > Can you get Microsoft to donate licenses for VSTS to all ReactOS developers? ;-)
Casper
Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
-- "I had a handle on life, but then it broke"
Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
-- "I had a handle on life, but then it broke"
Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
The Brand Name they're buying is worth the fee
On 12/5/05, Richard Campbell eek2121@comcast.net wrote:
I'll disagree with this, Dell pays money for copies of the Windows Operating System, if a free, open source compatible clone were to come along, i think they'd jump on it in a heartbeat.
TwoTailedFox wrote:
Dell I can't see as being agreeable loading a direct Windows Replacement, when most of their computers are shipped with Windows. They'd see a sizeable portion of their income dropped, if Microsoft decided to pull out of it.
IBM is currently being lobbied to make OS/2 Open-Source.. maybe WINE and ReactOS should chip in to that petition?
On 12/5/05, David Hinz post.center@gmail.com wrote:
I think we might have good chances that IBM will help us, especially with the OS/2 subsystem. And if they still had their PC-branch, I would guarantee they would help us, just to show MS that nobody depends on them, but unfortunately they don't have it anymore... Anyway, I think IBM, Intel and maybe companys like Dell should be worth a try.
Greets,
David Hinz
Magnus Olsen schrieb:
Nivida will not agree on GPL licen for there drv linux people have try getting GPL drv from nivida and the answers have always be no.
----- Original Message ----- From: "TwoTailedFox" twotailedfox@gmail.com To: "ReactOS Development List" ros-dev@reactos.org Sent: den 5 December 2005 21:18 Subject: Re: [ros-dev] My attitude
I can see IBM supporting us, since their last Good OS, OS/2, is now efectively dead. I don't see some companies like Sun, or Novell, supporting us, since they already have a vested interest in an Operating System
What I'd really like to see are Hardware Manufacturers getting behind us. Realtek, nVIDIA, ATi, Intel, AMD, VIA, etc, could all be approached, and ask for collaboration on writing GPL Drivers (Although nVIDIA is notoriously skeptical about open-source)
On 12/5/05, David Hinz post.center@gmail.com wrote:
Maybe we could get a big company as a sponsor? I think, if we wrote to some companys like maybe IBM or so, we might find some good sponsors, who could maybe even provide us some full time coders. And this could really increase development speed. But maybe they just want to help us out with some software or who knows what. We just have to ask and we will get an answer.
Greets,
David Hinz
Casper Hornstrup schrieb:
>>OTOH, I think there needs to be better project management and a >>cooperation mentality, something akin to a real start-up software >>company. I have this dream where everyone is using Visual Studio Team >>System and writing patches for bug reports, using peer-review, >> >>
managing
>>meetings, doing nightly test builds, filling out test cases.... but >> >>
I'm
>>sure that would put many people off. (even though it would cut >>development time by a year at least) >> >>Best regards, >>Alex Ionescu >> >> >Can you get Microsoft to donate licenses for VSTS to all ReactOS >developers? ;-) > >Casper > > >_______________________________________________ >Ros-dev mailing list >Ros-dev@reactos.org >http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev > > > _______________________________________________ Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
-- "I had a handle on life, but then it broke"
Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
-- "I had a handle on life, but then it broke"
Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
-- "I had a handle on life, but then it broke"
Then we must ensure that our brand name is more valuable.
TwoTailedFox wrote:
The Brand Name they're buying is worth the fee
On 12/5/05, Richard Campbell eek2121@comcast.net wrote:
I'll disagree with this, Dell pays money for copies of the Windows Operating System, if a free, open source compatible clone were to come along, i think they'd jump on it in a heartbeat.
TwoTailedFox wrote:
Dell I can't see as being agreeable loading a direct Windows Replacement, when most of their computers are shipped with Windows. They'd see a sizeable portion of their income dropped, if Microsoft decided to pull out of it.
IBM is currently being lobbied to make OS/2 Open-Source.. maybe WINE and ReactOS should chip in to that petition?
On 12/5/05, David Hinz post.center@gmail.com wrote:
I think we might have good chances that IBM will help us, especially with the OS/2 subsystem. And if they still had their PC-branch, I would guarantee they would help us, just to show MS that nobody depends on them, but unfortunately they don't have it anymore... Anyway, I think IBM, Intel and maybe companys like Dell should be worth a try.
Greets,
David Hinz
Magnus Olsen schrieb:
Nivida will not agree on GPL licen for there drv linux people have try getting GPL drv from nivida and the answers have always be no.
----- Original Message ----- From: "TwoTailedFox" twotailedfox@gmail.com To: "ReactOS Development List" ros-dev@reactos.org Sent: den 5 December 2005 21:18 Subject: Re: [ros-dev] My attitude
I can see IBM supporting us, since their last Good OS, OS/2, is now efectively dead. I don't see some companies like Sun, or Novell, supporting us, since they already have a vested interest in an Operating System
What I'd really like to see are Hardware Manufacturers getting behind us. Realtek, nVIDIA, ATi, Intel, AMD, VIA, etc, could all be approached, and ask for collaboration on writing GPL Drivers (Although nVIDIA is notoriously skeptical about open-source)
On 12/5/05, David Hinz post.center@gmail.com wrote:
>Maybe we could get a big company as a sponsor? >I think, if we wrote to some companys like maybe IBM or so, we might >find some good sponsors, who could maybe even provide us some full time >coders. And this could really increase development speed. >But maybe they just want to help us out with some software or who knows >what. We just have to ask and we will get an answer. > >Greets, > >David Hinz > >Casper Hornstrup schrieb: > > > > >>>OTOH, I think there needs to be better project management and a >>>cooperation mentality, something akin to a real start-up software >>>company. I have this dream where everyone is using Visual Studio Team >>>System and writing patches for bug reports, using peer-review, >>> >>> >>> >>>
managing
>>>meetings, doing nightly test builds, filling out test cases.... but >>> >>> >>> >>>
I'm
>>>sure that would put many people off. (even though it would cut >>>development time by a year at least) >>> >>>Best regards, >>>Alex Ionescu >>> >>> >>> >>> >>Can you get Microsoft to donate licenses for VSTS to all ReactOS >>developers? ;-) >> >>Casper >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Ros-dev mailing list >>Ros-dev@reactos.org >>http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev >> >> >> >> >> >_______________________________________________ >Ros-dev mailing list >Ros-dev@reactos.org >http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev > > > >
>
"I had a handle on life, but then it broke"
Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
-- "I had a handle on life, but then it broke"
Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
-- "I had a handle on life, but then it broke"
Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
"Does the same thing but isn't from Microsoft" seems to be a pretty effective pitch these days....
On 12/5/05, Andrew Silver Blade Greenwood lists@silverblade.co.uk wrote:
Then we must ensure that our brand name is more valuable.
TwoTailedFox wrote:
The Brand Name they're buying is worth the fee
On 12/5/05, Richard Campbell eek2121@comcast.net wrote:
I'll disagree with this, Dell pays money for copies of the Windows Operating System, if a free, open source compatible clone were to come along, i think they'd jump on it in a heartbeat.
TwoTailedFox wrote:
Dell I can't see as being agreeable loading a direct Windows Replacement, when most of their computers are shipped with Windows. They'd see a sizeable portion of their income dropped, if Microsoft decided to pull out of it.
IBM is currently being lobbied to make OS/2 Open-Source.. maybe WINE and ReactOS should chip in to that petition?
On 12/5/05, David Hinz post.center@gmail.com wrote:
I think we might have good chances that IBM will help us, especially with the OS/2 subsystem. And if they still had their PC-branch, I
would
guarantee they would help us, just to show MS that nobody depends on them, but unfortunately they don't have it anymore... Anyway, I think IBM, Intel and maybe companys like Dell should be
worth
a try.
Greets,
David Hinz
Magnus Olsen schrieb:
Nivida will not agree on GPL licen for there drv linux people have try getting GPL drv from nivida and the answers
have
always be no.
----- Original Message ----- From: "TwoTailedFox" twotailedfox@gmail.com To: "ReactOS Development List" ros-dev@reactos.org Sent: den 5 December 2005 21:18 Subject: Re: [ros-dev] My attitude
>I can see IBM supporting us, since their last Good OS, OS/2, is now >efectively dead. I don't see some companies like Sun, or Novell, >supporting us, since they already have a vested interest in an >Operating System > >What I'd really like to see are Hardware Manufacturers getting
behind
>us. Realtek, nVIDIA, ATi, Intel, AMD, VIA, etc, could all be >approached, and ask for collaboration on writing GPL Drivers
(Although
>nVIDIA is notoriously skeptical about open-source) > > >On 12/5/05, David Hinz post.center@gmail.com wrote: > > > > >>Maybe we could get a big company as a sponsor? >>I think, if we wrote to some companys like maybe IBM or so, we
might
>>find some good sponsors, who could maybe even provide us some full
time
>>coders. And this could really increase development speed. >>But maybe they just want to help us out with some software or who
knows
>>what. We just have to ask and we will get an answer. >> >>Greets, >> >>David Hinz >> >>Casper Hornstrup schrieb: >> >> >> >> >>>>OTOH, I think there needs to be better project management and a >>>>cooperation mentality, something akin to a real start-up software >>>>company. I have this dream where everyone is using Visual Studio
Team
>>>>System and writing patches for bug reports, using peer-review, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> managing
>>>>meetings, doing nightly test builds, filling out test cases....
but
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I'm
>>>>sure that would put many people off. (even though it would cut >>>>development time by a year at least) >>>> >>>>Best regards, >>>>Alex Ionescu >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>Can you get Microsoft to donate licenses for VSTS to all ReactOS >>>developers? ;-) >>> >>>Casper >>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Ros-dev mailing list >>>Ros-dev@reactos.org >>>http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>_______________________________________________ >>Ros-dev mailing list >>Ros-dev@reactos.org >>http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev >> >> >> >> >> >-- >"I had a handle on life, but then it broke" > >_______________________________________________ >Ros-dev mailing list >Ros-dev@reactos.org >http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev > > > > _______________________________________________ Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
-- "I had a handle on life, but then it broke"
Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
-- "I had a handle on life, but then it broke"
Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
Dell is a big company and people believe what they tell them, so Microsoft would have to start a big campaign on TV and everywhere else, otherwise people would believe Dell, that ReactOS is the successor of Windows. There are a lot of possibilities, but we have to wait for the right moment.
Greets,
David Hinz
Kai Moonbourn schrieb:
"Does the same thing but isn't from Microsoft" seems to be a pretty effective pitch these days....
Richard Campbell wrote:
I'll disagree with this, Dell pays money for copies of the Windows Operating System, if a free, open source compatible clone were to come along, i think they'd jump on it in a heartbeat.
Dell now ship in the UK with Firefox pre installed, so they certainly aren't afraid if open source,. cheers Les
Dell needs to partner with a solid company which can support whatever OS they put on their boxes. If there isn't one, then they can't afford putting ReactOS on their boxes. OS licenses are cheap. People and knowledge is expensive.
Casper
-----Original Message----- From: ros-dev-bounces@reactos.org [mailto:ros-dev-bounces@reactos.org] On Behalf Of Richard Campbell Sent: 6. december 2005 00:32 To: ReactOS Development List Subject: Re: [ros-dev] My attitude
I'll disagree with this, Dell pays money for copies of the Windows Operating System, if a free, open source compatible clone were to come along, i think they'd jump on it in a heartbeat.
Casper Hornstrup wrote:
Dell needs to partner with a solid company which can support whatever OS they put on their boxes. If there isn't one, then they can't afford putting ReactOS on their boxes. OS licenses are cheap. People and knowledge is expensive.
I don't see the problem with simply asking. Why not ask, let *them* do the thinking that we're doing on this list, and let *them* give us a definitive answer? If they say, "Thanks, but no thanks," then it's no skin off our collective noses. If they say yes, so much the better.
Kevin
Please do ;-)
-----Original Message----- From: ros-dev-bounces@reactos.org [mailto:ros-dev-bounces@reactos.org] On Behalf Of Kevin Hunter Sent: 7. december 2005 04:40 To: ReactOS Development List Subject: Re: [ros-dev] My attitude
Casper Hornstrup wrote:
Dell needs to partner with a solid company which can support whatever OS they put on their boxes. If there isn't one, then they can't afford putting ReactOS on their boxes. OS licenses are cheap. People and knowledge is expensive.
I don't see the problem with simply asking. Why not ask, let *them* do the thinking that we're doing on this list, and let *them* give us a definitive answer? If they say, "Thanks, but no thanks," then it's no skin off our collective noses. If they say yes, so much the better.
Kevin _______________________________________________ Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
I think it's better, if somebody like our PC asks such companies, if they want to support this project.
Greets,
David Hinz
Casper Hornstrup schrieb:
Please do ;-)
-----Original Message----- From: ros-dev-bounces@reactos.org [mailto:ros-dev-bounces@reactos.org] On Behalf Of Kevin Hunter Sent: 7. december 2005 04:40 To: ReactOS Development List Subject: Re: [ros-dev] My attitude
Casper Hornstrup wrote:
Dell needs to partner with a solid company which can support whatever OS they put on their boxes. If there isn't one, then they can't afford putting ReactOS on their boxes. OS licenses are cheap. People and knowledge is expensive.
I don't see the problem with simply asking. Why not ask, let *them* do the thinking that we're doing on this list, and let *them* give us a definitive answer? If they say, "Thanks, but no thanks," then it's no skin off our collective noses. If they say yes, so much the better.
Kevin _______________________________________________ Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
Don't forget about forward looking companies like Google. Even though they have denied their interest in a GoogleOS, I could well imagine reactos being of interest to them.
Mark
----- Original Message ----- From: "David Hinz" post.center@gmail.com
I think it's better, if somebody like our PC asks such companies, if they want to support this project.
Greets,
David Hinz
Casper Hornstrup schrieb:
Please do ;-)
-----Original Message----- From: ros-dev-bounces@reactos.org [mailto:ros-dev-bounces@reactos.org] On Behalf Of Kevin Hunter Sent: 7. december 2005 04:40 To: ReactOS Development List Subject: Re: [ros-dev] My attitude
Casper Hornstrup wrote:
Dell needs to partner with a solid company which can support whatever OS they put on their boxes. If there isn't one, then they can't afford putting ReactOS on their boxes. OS licenses are cheap. People and knowledge is expensive.
I don't see the problem with simply asking. Why not ask, let *them* do the thinking that we're doing on this list, and let *them* give us a definitive answer? If they say, "Thanks, but no thanks," then it's no skin off our collective noses. If they say yes, so much the better.
Kevin _______________________________________________ Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
I think integration with Google using C APIs would be preferable. Google would be doing reactos a really great deal if the desktop search engine was opened up and given to the project. Even if by binary only distribution files. Since gds works on windows 2k and up it should be a great addition to the project. Or perhaps addition of an indexing engine to search for files and folders and index them when the system is idol. On Dec 7, 2005, at 2:56 PM, Mark de Wit wrote:
Don't forget about forward looking companies like Google. Even though they have denied their interest in a GoogleOS, I could well imagine reactos being of interest to them.
Mark
----- Original Message ----- From: "David Hinz" post.center@gmail.com
I think it's better, if somebody like our PC asks such companies, if they want to support this project.
Greets,
David Hinz
Casper Hornstrup schrieb:
Please do ;-)
-----Original Message----- From: ros-dev-bounces@reactos.org [mailto:ros-dev- bounces@reactos.org] On Behalf Of Kevin Hunter Sent: 7. december 2005 04:40 To: ReactOS Development List Subject: Re: [ros-dev] My attitude
Casper Hornstrup wrote:
Dell needs to partner with a solid company which can support whatever OS they put on their boxes. If there isn't one, then they can't afford putting ReactOS on their boxes. OS licenses are cheap. People and knowledge is expensive.
I don't see the problem with simply asking. Why not ask, let *them* do the thinking that we're doing on this list, and let *them* give us a definitive answer? If they say, "Thanks, but no thanks," then it's no skin off our collective noses. If they say yes, so much the better.
Kevin _______________________________________________ Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
I think Google would be a great partner with ReactOS. We may just what to ask them to sponser it.
Rick Langschultz wrote:
I think integration with Google using C APIs would be preferable. Google would be doing reactos a really great deal if the desktop search engine was opened up and given to the project. Even if by binary only distribution files. Since gds works on windows 2k and up it should be a great addition to the project. Or perhaps addition of an indexing engine to search for files and folders and index them when the system is idol. On Dec 7, 2005, at 2:56 PM, Mark de Wit wrote:
Don't forget about forward looking companies like Google. Even though they have denied their interest in a GoogleOS, I could well imagine reactos being of interest to them.
Mark
----- Original Message ----- From: "David Hinz" post.center@gmail.com
I think it's better, if somebody like our PC asks such companies, if they want to support this project.
Greets,
David Hinz
Casper Hornstrup schrieb:
Please do ;-)
-----Original Message----- From: ros-dev-bounces@reactos.org [mailto:ros-dev- bounces@reactos.org] On Behalf Of Kevin Hunter Sent: 7. december 2005 04:40 To: ReactOS Development List Subject: Re: [ros-dev] My attitude
Casper Hornstrup wrote:
Dell needs to partner with a solid company which can support whatever OS they put on their boxes. If there isn't one, then they can't afford putting ReactOS on their boxes. OS licenses are cheap. People and knowledge is expensive.
I don't see the problem with simply asking. Why not ask, let *them* do the thinking that we're doing on this list, and let *them* give us a definitive answer? If they say, "Thanks, but no thanks," then it's no skin off our collective noses. If they say yes, so much the better.
Kevin _______________________________________________ Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
I think your asking alot. Google would have to have something major to gain from such an venture. Where do they fit in when it comes to Reactos, and making money (to things which seriously dont belong together)? When you look for a sponser, consider that their (err) probably not conserned with the future of ReactOS. I think Dell, or for that matter, any pc manufacturer would be the best idea, but thats just my opinion.
brian
Gensi makers of the Pegasos II mother board might be able to help. They are into the PPC market.
On 12/8/05, Brian briandabrain@gmail.com wrote:
I think your asking alot. Google would have to have something major to gain from such an venture. Where do they fit in when it comes to Reactos, and making money (to things which seriously dont belong together)? When you look for a sponser, consider that their (err) probably not conserned with the future of ReactOS. I think Dell, or for that matter, any pc manufacturer would be the best idea, but thats just my opinion.
brian
Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
-- David Johnson http://www.davefilms.us Producer
If they ever do a Summer of Code next year, might be interresting to apply.
When you look at what MS wants to do (advertisments on every pc...) this perfectly fits, because then google would provide the ads (if we would really want to do this, but I don't think so) and not MS.
Google and MS are the biggest enemies in this market, so Google is happy over every cent MS doesn't get. If Google gets this cent or not isn't that important for them in that moment, the most important thing for them is that MS doesn't get it. And the easiest way to reach this goal is to "steal" MS the platform they need, Windows. If they use Linux, ReactOS or whatever doesn't interest them. You can see this when you look at the relationship between Google and Sun, they said, that they want to work together, I think the background is, that Google wants as many users as possible not to use MS Office, because MS wants to use it as an advertisment platform.
I hope you see, why such a relationship would be of interest for Google.
Greets,
David Hinz
Brian schrieb:
I think your asking alot. Google would have to have something major to gain from such an venture. Where do they fit in when it comes to Reactos, and making money (to things which seriously dont belong together)? When you look for a sponser, consider that their (err) probably not conserned with the future of ReactOS. I think Dell, or for that matter, any pc manufacturer would be the best idea, but thats just my opinion.
brian
Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
OK, you are forgeting one thing, Google is a for profit corperation, their mission is not to "kill Microsoft," thier goal to maximize profit, Microsoft has the exact same goal. Google and Microsoft just happen to be in a Oligopoly right now which is why they both are focused on each other, because any move by one of them (be it hostile to the other company or not) will affect the other. I'm sorry but Microsoft and Google both realize that users will not bear to have required advertising built in to the OS. Which is why I fail to see is where Google plans to make its profits by working on ReactOS; in order for investment in ReactOS to be profitable, it must hold potential to increase Google's revenue. One possible source of revenue is if Google plans to make a GoogleOS, base it on ReactOS, and sell the OS. Of course they say they have no plans to do so at this time, noone really knows if they are planning to or not (expect of course their upper managers.) But don't just assume that Google will automatically invest in the project just because it could hurt thier competitor's sales, they are interested in thier revenue, not Microsoft's.
David Hinz wrote:
When you look at what MS wants to do (advertisments on every pc...) this perfectly fits, because then google would provide the ads (if we would really want to do this, but I don't think so) and not MS.
Google and MS are the biggest enemies in this market, so Google is happy over every cent MS doesn't get. If Google gets this cent or not isn't that important for them in that moment, the most important thing for them is that MS doesn't get it. And the easiest way to reach this goal is to "steal" MS the platform they need, Windows. If they use Linux, ReactOS or whatever doesn't interest them. You can see this when you look at the relationship between Google and Sun, they said, that they want to work together, I think the background is, that Google wants as many users as possible not to use MS Office, because MS wants to use it as an advertisment platform.
I hope you see, why such a relationship would be of interest for Google.
Google has been competing with Microsoft on a tit-for-tat basis for some time now (desktop search, Google Desktop, GoogleEarth, GoogleChat etc)... Imagine a Google "distro" of reactOS integrating those apps out of the box. That would be fantastic, both for google and end-users (come on Google, we'd need a media player too!).
But what does a PC distributor have to gain from bundling reactOS? Sure, less cost per unit, but think of support issues etc.
Mark ----- Original Message ----- From: Brian To: ReactOS Development List Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2005 4:40 PM Subject: Re: [ros-dev] Google Integration was: My attitude
I think your asking alot. Google would have to have something major to gain from such an venture. Where do they fit in when it comes to Reactos, and making money (to things which seriously dont belong together)? When you look for a sponser, consider that their (err) probably not conserned with the future of ReactOS. I think Dell, or for that matter, any pc manufacturer would be the best idea, but thats just my opinion.
brian
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
_______________________________________________ Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
I agree. Google employees can spend 20% of their time on a special programming project; I wonder if any of them would choose ReactOS. On Dec 8, 2005, at 7:02 AM, Jerry wrote:
I think Google would be a great partner with ReactOS. We may just what to ask them to sponser it.
Rick Langschultz wrote:
I think integration with Google using C APIs would be preferable. Google would be doing reactos a really great deal if the desktop search engine was opened up and given to the project. Even if by binary only distribution files. Since gds works on windows 2k and up it should be a great addition to the project. Or perhaps addition of an indexing engine to search for files and folders and index them when the system is idol. On Dec 7, 2005, at 2:56 PM, Mark de Wit wrote:
Don't forget about forward looking companies like Google. Even though they have denied their interest in a GoogleOS, I could well imagine reactos being of interest to them.
Mark
----- Original Message ----- From: "David Hinz" post.center@gmail.com
I think it's better, if somebody like our PC asks such companies, if they want to support this project.
Greets,
David Hinz
Casper Hornstrup schrieb:
Please do ;-)
-----Original Message----- From: ros-dev-bounces@reactos.org [mailto:ros-dev- bounces@reactos.org] On Behalf Of Kevin Hunter Sent: 7. december 2005 04:40 To: ReactOS Development List Subject: Re: [ros-dev] My attitude
Casper Hornstrup wrote:
> Dell needs to partner with a solid company which can support > whatever OS they put on their boxes. If there isn't one, then > they can't afford putting ReactOS on their boxes. OS licenses > are cheap. People and knowledge is expensive.
I don't see the problem with simply asking. Why not ask, let *them* do the thinking that we're doing on this list, and let *them* give us a definitive answer? If they say, "Thanks, but no thanks," then it's no skin off our collective noses. If they say yes, so much the better.
Kevin _______________________________________________ Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
<crashfourit.vcf>
Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
Maybe, who knows. But they have to know, that our project is existing, maybe then they would help us. I see a huge potential, the desktop search could be our only search engine, saves a lot of time and nobody gets the stupid idea to use MSs desktopsearch (even if I think, that it wont run that good...) or something like the sidebar planned for Windows Vista (doesn't look like it will be included in RTM) could be integrated, using google services like search (using the adsense technology, but instead of showing ads showing "ordinary" searchresults) or maybe even things like wheather (don't know if google wheather is existing...) and of course shecking your googlemail. But such potential exists for a lot of companies, so I think this is a topic that will be current for a long time...
Greets,
David Hinz
btw, please stop responding to these very offtopic mails, use my Industry Support thread instead...
Rick Langschultz schrieb:
I agree. Google employees can spend 20% of their time on a special programming project; I wonder if any of them would choose ReactOS. On Dec 8, 2005, at 7:02 AM, Jerry wrote:
I think Google would be a great partner with ReactOS. We may just what to ask them to sponser it.
Rick Langschultz wrote:
I think integration with Google using C APIs would be preferable. Google would be doing reactos a really great deal if the desktop search engine was opened up and given to the project. Even if by binary only distribution files. Since gds works on windows 2k and up it should be a great addition to the project. Or perhaps addition of an indexing engine to search for files and folders and index them when the system is idol.
I guess I can see where you are coming from, but there is the whole sun thing... The simple fact that they already have a partener, who owns an OS arch. means alot. To jump on ReactOS, they would have to be convinced that ReactOS was worth it (that it was an equal, or better than MS WinNT), and that it wouldn't cost them anything (porting wise). I think that such a task is posible, becuase as you said, Google would gladly jump on the chance to take pennies from Microsoft, and ReactOS can make that posible.
Brian wrote:
I guess I can see where you are coming from, but there is the whole sun thing... The simple fact that they already have a partener, who owns an OS arch. means alot. To jump on ReactOS, they would have to be convinced that ReactOS was worth it (that it was an equal, or better than MS WinNT), and that it wouldn't cost them anything (porting wise). I think that such a task is posible, becuase as you said, Google would gladly jump on the chance to take pennies from Microsoft, and ReactOS can make that posible.
Despite how certain members of the community might feel towards Microsoft... officially the ReactOS community is not out to hurt or destroy Microsoft. After all, Microsoft is the one that brought us the Windows platform we're so desperately trying to emulate.
I think this line of conjecture is inappropriate, particularly in this medium, and should be ended, or at least taken elsewhere.
Well, I didn't say our goal should be hurting or destroying Microsoft, but as far as I know our goal is to create a working Windows NT replacement. And that means, that we actually want to replace Windows. And this is the point, where Google enters the stage, they want MS to earn as less money as possible, so that MS isn't too dangerous for Google. And how could you hinder Microsoft from earning money? Right, you 'just' have to steal them their platform they need for their business, Windows and Office (Microsoft knows, why they are producing the Xbox, it's a completely different business, so if the Windows and Office business goes down, they make their money with the Xbox). And what would be the best thing to pull people away from Windows and Office? Right again, it's something that is compatible and similiar, at the moment this would be OpenOffice and ReactOS. And as I mentioned in a previous mail, they are actually working together with Sun, in order to support OpenOffice.
I think, it would be hard to convince Google, but I see a chance for a very close relationship with Google, as both sides would profit of it a lot.
Greets,
David Hinz
Royce Mitchell III schrieb:
Brian wrote:
I guess I can see where you are coming from, but there is the whole sun thing... The simple fact that they already have a partener, who owns an OS arch. means alot. To jump on ReactOS, they would have to be convinced that ReactOS was worth it (that it was an equal, or better than MS WinNT), and that it wouldn't cost them anything (porting wise). I think that such a task is posible, becuase as you said, Google would gladly jump on the chance to take pennies from Microsoft, and ReactOS can make that posible.
Despite how certain members of the community might feel towards Microsoft... officially the ReactOS community is not out to hurt or destroy Microsoft. After all, Microsoft is the one that brought us the Windows platform we're so desperately trying to emulate.
I think this line of conjecture is inappropriate, particularly in this medium, and should be ended, or at least taken elsewhere.
Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
David Hinz wrote:
Well, I didn't say our goal should be hurting or destroying Microsoft, but as far as I know our goal is to create a working Windows NT replacement. And that means, that we actually want to replace Windows. And this is the point, where Google enters the stage, they want MS to earn as less money as possible, so that MS isn't too dangerous for Google. And how could you hinder Microsoft from earning money? Right, you 'just' have to steal them their platform they need for their business, Windows and Office (Microsoft knows, why they are producing the Xbox, it's a completely different business, so if the Windows and Office business goes down, they make their money with the Xbox). And what would be the best thing to pull people away from Windows and Office? Right again, it's something that is compatible and similiar, at the moment this would be OpenOffice and ReactOS. And as I mentioned in a previous mail, they are actually working together with Sun, in order to support OpenOffice.
I think, it would be hard to convince Google, but I see a chance for a very close relationship with Google, as both sides would profit of it a lot.
What you're saying doesn't make sense.
They're selling the new X-Box under cost to get a foothold in the market. Office 12 is, from what I hear, going to be a major innovative and I'm guessing they're going to get a lot of sales from it - every sale is pure profit ( minus their R&D ), whereas the X-Boxes aren't even selling for *hardware cost*. They're *hoping* to make up the loss through game sales, but game development is a tricky business.
I don't think any of us envision ReactOS replacing Windows. If anything, ReactOS will make Windows stronger:
1) ReactOS is already being used by driver writers to better understand the system they are ultimately programming for.
2) ReactOS is already being used by some universities in classes about the Windows architecture.
3) ReactOS will prevent some from migrating to Linux - this means more people staying within the Windows "system".
4) ReactOS will likely attract many who currently use Windows without paying for it - i.e. it will likely *reduce* piracy, allowing MS to concentrate more on it's paying customers.
I don't actually see Google being interested in ReactOS - why would they want to compete with Microsoft on MS's terms? ReactOS's success is based on the Win32 foundation, and will likely always be tied to it.
Anyways, whether or not Google is interested in ReactOS or not, their reasons for it ( or not ) are theirs alone. Anything else is speculation. Attributing malice towards MicroSoft by Google is unhealthy, and possibly libelous if not actually true. Let's talk about facts instead, like the fact that Google is willing to put money into Wine to get it's apps working on that platform. In essence, Google is already donating to us by doing this. Perhaps they'd be willing to help fund us directly. That's something we can talk to them about.
If we're going to speculate, speculate on how ReactOS can increase a potential investor's revenue. Anything else is worthless speculation, IMHO. This could even apply to MS. Anybody have any contacts at MS that might be willing to help ReactOS? As I said, I believe firmly that ReactOS can only benefit MS, and I hope they see it one day soon.
Finally, people are complaining this list is being abused. Ros-dev is about "development". This discussion needs to be moved to the forums, or maybe ros-general.
I don't agree. ReactOS is not enough mature. They'll not risk to support us, (against Microsoft, which they need) now that ReactOS is unable to equal it. (the project could break, for example). It's better to wait until we can offer them a good OS.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Casper Hornstrup" ch@csh-consult.dk Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2005 10:31 AM Subject: RE: [ros-dev] My attitude
Please do ;-)
-----Original Message----- From: ros-dev-bounces@reactos.org [mailto:ros-dev-bounces@reactos.org] On Behalf Of Kevin Hunter Sent: 7. december 2005 04:40 To: ReactOS Development List Subject: Re: [ros-dev] My attitude
Casper Hornstrup wrote:
Dell needs to partner with a solid company which can support whatever OS they put on their boxes. If there isn't one, then they can't afford putting ReactOS on their boxes. OS licenses are cheap. People and knowledge is expensive.
I don't see the problem with simply asking. Why not ask, let *them* do the thinking that we're doing on this list, and let *them* give us a definitive answer? If they say, "Thanks, but no thanks," then it's no skin off our collective noses. If they say yes, so much the better.
Kevin _______________________________________________ Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
ReactOS should join Power.ORG and port the OS to the PPC platform.
On 12/7/05, Sarocet Sarocet@spymac.com wrote:
I don't agree. ReactOS is not enough mature. They'll not risk to support us, (against Microsoft, which they need) now that ReactOS is unable to equal it. (the project could break, for example). It's better to wait until we can offer them a good OS.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Casper Hornstrup" ch@csh-consult.dk Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2005 10:31 AM Subject: RE: [ros-dev] My attitude
Please do ;-)
-----Original Message----- From: ros-dev-bounces@reactos.org [mailto:ros-dev-bounces@reactos.org]
On
Behalf Of Kevin Hunter Sent: 7. december 2005 04:40 To: ReactOS Development List Subject: Re: [ros-dev] My attitude
Casper Hornstrup wrote:
Dell needs to partner with a solid company which can support whatever OS they put on their boxes. If there isn't one, then they can't afford putting ReactOS on their boxes. OS licenses are cheap. People and knowledge is expensive.
I don't see the problem with simply asking. Why not ask, let *them* do the thinking that we're doing on this list, and let *them* give us a definitive answer? If they say, "Thanks, but no thanks," then it's no skin off our collective noses. If they say yes, so much the better.
Kevin _______________________________________________ Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
-- David Johnson http://www.davefilms.us Producer
It *is* being ported.
On 12/7/05, David Johnson davidjohnson.johnson@gmail.com wrote:
ReactOS should join Power.ORG and port the OS to the PPC platform.
On 12/7/05, Sarocet Sarocet@spymac.com wrote:
I don't agree. ReactOS is not enough mature. They'll not risk to support
us,
(against Microsoft, which they need) now that ReactOS is unable to equal
it.
(the project could break, for example). It's better to wait until we can offer them a good OS.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Casper Hornstrup" <ch@csh-consult.dk > Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2005 10:31 AM Subject: RE: [ros-dev] My attitude
Please do ;-)
-----Original Message----- From: ros-dev-bounces@reactos.org [mailto:ros-dev-bounces@reactos.org]
On
Behalf Of Kevin Hunter Sent: 7. december 2005 04:40 To: ReactOS Development List Subject: Re: [ros-dev] My attitude
Casper Hornstrup wrote:
Dell needs to partner with a solid company which can support whatever OS they put on their boxes. If there isn't one, then they can't afford putting ReactOS on their boxes. OS licenses are cheap. People and knowledge is expensive.
I don't see the problem with simply asking. Why not ask, let *them* do the thinking that we're doing on this list, and let *them* give us a definitive answer? If they say, "Thanks, but no thanks," then it's no skin off our collective noses. If they say yes, so much the better.
Kevin _______________________________________________ Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
-- David Johnson http://www.davefilms.us Producer _______________________________________________ Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
-- "I had a handle on life, but then it broke"
I know. But ROS foundation should join Power.ORG IBM is a member.
On 12/7/05, TwoTailedFox twotailedfox@gmail.com wrote:
It *is* being ported.
On 12/7/05, David Johnson davidjohnson.johnson@gmail.com wrote:
ReactOS should join Power.ORG and port the OS to the PPC platform.
On 12/7/05, Sarocet Sarocet@spymac.com wrote:
I don't agree. ReactOS is not enough mature. They'll not risk to
support
us,
(against Microsoft, which they need) now that ReactOS is unable to
equal
it.
(the project could break, for example). It's better to wait until we can offer them a good OS.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Casper Hornstrup" <ch@csh-consult.dk > Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2005 10:31 AM Subject: RE: [ros-dev] My attitude
Please do ;-)
-----Original Message----- From: ros-dev-bounces@reactos.org [mailto:
ros-dev-bounces@reactos.org]
On
Behalf Of Kevin Hunter Sent: 7. december 2005 04:40 To: ReactOS Development List Subject: Re: [ros-dev] My attitude
Casper Hornstrup wrote:
Dell needs to partner with a solid company which can support whatever OS they put on their boxes. If there isn't one, then they can't afford putting ReactOS on their boxes. OS licenses are cheap. People and knowledge is expensive.
I don't see the problem with simply asking. Why not ask, let
*them* do
the thinking that we're doing on this list, and let *them* give us
a
definitive answer? If they say, "Thanks, but no thanks," then it's
no
skin off our collective noses. If they say yes, so much the
better.
Kevin _______________________________________________ Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
-- David Johnson http://www.davefilms.us Producer _______________________________________________ Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
-- "I had a handle on life, but then it broke"
Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
-- David Johnson http://www.davefilms.us Producer
Exactly!!!
On 12/7/05, Rick Parrish rfmobile@swbell.net wrote:
David Johnson wrote:
I know. But ROS foundation should join Power.ORG IBM is a member.
Or even better ... Power.org could become a ReactOS sponsor by contributing $$$, code, or talent.
-rick
Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
-- David Johnson http://www.davefilms.us Producer
David Hinz wrote:
I think we might have good chances that IBM will help us, especially with the OS/2 subsystem. And if they still had their PC-branch, I would guarantee they would help us, just to show MS that nobody depends on them, but unfortunately they don't have it anymore... Anyway, I think IBM, Intel and maybe companys like Dell should be worth a try.
Greets,
David Hinz
Hi, I agree, I would like to make their file system first choice for installing Ros with,,, before ntfs. Ext2fs is okay, I would like to read and write to it. I believe IBM would love to give a poke to M$ too. If IBM has a windows driver for their JFS it would be nice to integrate it into Ros.
Thanks, Jame
On Mon, 2005-12-05 at 20:18 +0000, TwoTailedFox wrote:
I can see IBM supporting us, since their last Good OS, OS/2, is now efectively dead. I don't see some companies like Sun, or Novell, supporting us, since they already have a vested interest in an Operating System
What I'd really like to see are Hardware Manufacturers getting behind us. Realtek, nVIDIA, ATi, Intel, AMD, VIA, etc, could all be approached, and ask for collaboration on writing GPL Drivers (Although nVIDIA is notoriously skeptical about open-source)
Im sorry, snot came out of my nose laughing when I read this...... If you think ANY Manufacturer is going to back an open source windows clone when they wont even touch a FreeBSD, let alone a Liux then you are not living in the real world.
If you want pure GPL then it is best NOT to contact these people and ask, if by some miracle they sent you any data you would probably find that you are in breech of NDA if you use it.
Out of your list only VIA will give out data on request, and thats only data for devices that don't do multimedia.
Jon
If a company hasn't started writing drivers for *nix, BSD and Linux, they won't start, unless given a major push. We aim to use WDM, so most, if not all of the foundation is there already. Technically, companies don't sell drivers anyway, so I don't see it being a financial issue.
On 12/5/05, Jonathan Andrews jon@jonshouse.co.uk wrote:
On Mon, 2005-12-05 at 20:18 +0000, TwoTailedFox wrote:
I can see IBM supporting us, since their last Good OS, OS/2, is now efectively dead. I don't see some companies like Sun, or Novell, supporting us, since they already have a vested interest in an Operating System
What I'd really like to see are Hardware Manufacturers getting behind us. Realtek, nVIDIA, ATi, Intel, AMD, VIA, etc, could all be approached, and ask for collaboration on writing GPL Drivers (Although nVIDIA is notoriously skeptical about open-source)
Im sorry, snot came out of my nose laughing when I read this...... If you think ANY Manufacturer is going to back an open source windows clone when they wont even touch a FreeBSD, let alone a Liux then you are not living in the real world.
If you want pure GPL then it is best NOT to contact these people and ask, if by some miracle they sent you any data you would probably find that you are in breech of NDA if you use it.
Out of your list only VIA will give out data on request, and thats only data for devices that don't do multimedia.
Jon
Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
-- "I had a handle on life, but then it broke"
Not really dlink give out drv under gpl for linux kiss dvd manyfactory using sigmadesign decoder chip in some dvd player and they giving out there driver as gpl. And some other manyfactor both for windows and linux.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Jonathan Andrews" jon@jonshouse.co.uk To: "ReactOS Development List" ros-dev@reactos.org Sent: den 5 December 2005 21:55 Subject: Re: [ros-dev] My attitude
On Mon, 2005-12-05 at 20:18 +0000, TwoTailedFox wrote:
I can see IBM supporting us, since their last Good OS, OS/2, is now efectively dead. I don't see some companies like Sun, or Novell, supporting us, since they already have a vested interest in an Operating System
What I'd really like to see are Hardware Manufacturers getting behind us. Realtek, nVIDIA, ATi, Intel, AMD, VIA, etc, could all be approached, and ask for collaboration on writing GPL Drivers (Although nVIDIA is notoriously skeptical about open-source)
Im sorry, snot came out of my nose laughing when I read this...... If you think ANY Manufacturer is going to back an open source windows clone when they wont even touch a FreeBSD, let alone a Liux then you are not living in the real world.
If you want pure GPL then it is best NOT to contact these people and ask, if by some miracle they sent you any data you would probably find that you are in breech of NDA if you use it.
Out of your list only VIA will give out data on request, and thats only data for devices that don't do multimedia.
Jon
Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
Brian wrote:
I have been reading the mailing list for a long time now, and i have to say, i have recently noticed a building up of this childish crap.
I propose we open a ros-drama@reactos.org mailing list to let the soap-opera side of the project express itself freely - and to let who doesn't like it filter it out
2005/12/9, Royce Mitchell III royce3@ev1.net:
KJKHyperion wrote:
I propose we open a ros-drama@reactos.org mailing list to let the soap-opera side of the project express itself freely - and to let who doesn't like it filter it out
true ;-)
btw. Alex .... my grandma is too old and she doesn't even know how to move computer mouse. ;-P
+1 Insightful.
On 12/9/05, KJKHyperion hackbunny@reactos.com wrote:
Brian wrote:
I have been reading the mailing list for a long time now, and i have to say, i have recently noticed a building up of this childish crap.
I propose we open a ros-drama@reactos.org mailing list to let the soap-opera side of the project express itself freely - and to let who doesn't like it filter it out _______________________________________________ Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
-- "I had a handle on life, but then it broke"
KJKHyperion wrote:
Brian wrote:
I have been reading the mailing list for a long time now, and i have to say, i have recently noticed a building up of this childish crap.
I propose we open a ros-drama@reactos.org mailing list to let the soap-opera side of the project express itself freely - and to let who doesn't like it filter it out _______________________________________________ Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
I like that idea, that will be my preffered mailing list. :)
E.T.
Well, I was meaning to lead to reform, but that wasn't what i was thinking at the moment. LOL
Witukind wrote:
I think the project would stagnate without Alex.
That just isn't true, and I'm sure Alex wouldn't want anyone to think that either. There are some other developers on this project (not naming any names) who are just as good if not better programmers than Alex, they just choose not to voice their skills openly like Alex does. Just wanted to point that out for anyone thinking Alex is the be all and end all of this project. As I said, I'm sure Alex doesn't want anyone thinking that either.
WaxDragon wrote:
Alex is young and intelligent, which naturally leads to arrogance,but I have long since gotten numb to his behaviour, since there are plenty of people like him in my life. To his credit, Alex is one of the few reasons I am still involved with this project, and sometimes, I *do* feel like I am working for him. ;0) Without Alex I am sure this project would be different, but I'm not sure if it would be better or worse.
As I have said before, it's these very arguments on public projectmailing lists that hurt this project more than anything. It's arguments like these that make me want to leave, not any one's attitude. They take up resources and contribute nothing. Just keep in mind that these emails will be found by people looking for answers to questions for a long time to come.
I've seen this problem again and again. The contributors to theproject are some of the brightest people I have ever met (in this field), and when you get a group of intelligent people together, invariably egos get in the mix and you have this childish bickering about STUPID SHIT. I've seen this happen to PHDs that were twice my age, and should have known better.
If you have a problem with someones attitude, I expect you to takeit up with them directly and privately. If that doesn't work, step away for a day or two, and reflect upon what this project means to you.
WD
I agree with everything you said. I was both shocked and annoyed to see this mail this morning when I woke up. This isn't something I would or would ever want to vote on. Having said that, it would be a very sad day if Alex ever did decide to leave. Hopefully it will never come to that, and everyone's differences can be sorted out, preferably not on a public mailing list.
Ged.
Ged Murphy wrote:
Witukind wrote:
I think the project would stagnate without Alex.
That just isn't true, and I'm sure Alex wouldn't want anyone to think that either. There are some other developers on this project (not naming any names) who are just as good if not better programmers than Alex, they just choose not to voice their skills openly like Alex does. Just wanted to point that out for anyone thinking Alex is the be all and end all of this project. As I said, I'm sure Alex doesn't want anyone thinking that either.
THANK YOU!
Best regards, Alex Ionescu
On 12/3/05, Alex Ionescu ionucu@videotron.ca wrote:
It was Steven's idea that I should post this emai and I agreedl, so please don't take it as my personal childish attempt to get attention, unless you find that both I and Steven (our Project Coordinator) are children.
No my idea was that you should ask and I said here would be fine, if the developers are turned off contributing to the project by your attitude. I suggested mailing the list if you thought I was wrong.
"My arrogant attitude hurts this project more then any amount of code or patches I commit will ever help it."
Which I later clarified to mean that long term if your attitude discourages people from contributing code. I do not wish to get in to childish debate or waste any ones time. This is my point of view, that yes long term it will hurt the project more. I can site examples but I am not wanting to beat a dead horse at this point.
[ ] Alex's arrogant attitude hurts this project more then his code helps it. Alex should therefore leave, so that the project can stop being hurt.
[ ] Alex's arrogant attitude is annoying at times but his presence in this project significantly helps it grow and move towards reaching its goals, and does not hurt the project.
This is my point of view. No one else's. I think long term your attitude is a detriment to the project, your methods are sloppy and you don't care how much it bothers other people. I mean you care about the project and think your development methods are helping but your attitude towards anyone that has tried to tell you otherwise has never shown it. Now if you want to ask the question correctly.
Are you turned off contributing to the project by Alex's attitude
[] Yes [] No
-- Steven Edwards - ReactOS and Wine developer
"There is one thing stronger than all the armies in the world, and that is an idea whose time has come." - Victor Hugo
Steven Edwards wrote:
No my idea was that you should ask
I wrote "It was Steven's idea that I should post this email" in my email.
I suggested mailing the list if you thought I was wrong.
I wrote "and I agreed" in my email.
"My arrogant attitude hurts this project more then any amount of code or patches I commit will ever help it."
Which I later clarified to mean that long term if your attitude discourages people from contributing code. I do not wish to get in to childish debate or waste any ones time. This is my point of view, that yes long term it will hurt the project more. I can site examples but I am not wanting to beat a dead horse at this point.
And like we both said on IRC, it's important to know if this is everyone's point of view.
[ ] Alex's arrogant attitude hurts this project more then his code helps it. Alex should therefore leave, so that the project can stop being hurt.
[ ] Alex's arrogant attitude is annoying at times but his presence in this project significantly helps it grow and move towards reaching its goals, and does not hurt the project.
This is my point of view. No one else's.
The point is to find out if that's true.
I think long term your attitude is a detriment to the project, your methods are sloppy and you don't care how much it bothers other people.
Nobody has ever questionned my "sloppy methods" except for you, at least not to me. Oh, Casper has complained about my huge patches, and I think he'll agree that even though I bitched about it a lot, I have had several chat sessions with him where I was explaining him the hurdles of splitting patches and how I was attempting to do so.
I mean you care about the project and think your development methods are helping but your attitude towards anyone that has tried to tell you otherwise has never shown it.
Why have they never shown it?
Now if you want to ask the question correctly.
Are you turned off contributing to the project by Alex's attitude
[] Yes [] No
But that's not really the question. I don't disagree that I might've turned off some people to contribute, but it's their problem for not having communicated with me about it... I can't fix what I'm not told about. How many people do you think are put off by Linus Torvalds? How many people do you think are put off just by the fact we don't use msvc? How many people do you think are put off by the fact we are GPL? Why single me out? It doesn't make sense, and I will sleep at night knowing that "I have put people off" because I'm sure other devs here have done the same, and I know that Linus's attitude puts off hundreds of developers. But let's go back to what you said:
[22:23] <@sedwards> Alex_Ionescu, your ego is going to do more damage to the project than any amount of code you commit [22:24] <@sedwards> the truth hurts [22:24] <@sedwards> I am not trying to be rude but I do mean it
It's one thing to "put people off", it's another to "do more damage then help".
The question isn't wether I've put people off. Please, anyone that I've put off, EMAIL ME. Tell me about it! I want you to work on this project and I will do anything it takes for us to get along.
The question remains:
<< Do you agree with this statement:
"<@sedwards> Alex_Ionescu, your ego is going to do more damage to the project than any amount of code you commit"
[ ] Yes [ ] No
Best regards, Alex Ionescu
On 12/4/05, Alex Ionescu ionucu@videotron.ca wrote:
Do you agree with this statement:
Why don't you save everyone the trouble, if you are going to quote me at least quote me in context so if I am wrong I can be wrong based on the truth and not the point of view presented by snips of IRC discussion. Here is the whole log up until the point of the email discussion:
http://steven-edwards.kicks-ass.org/~sedwards/alex.txt
-- Steven Edwards - ReactOS and Wine developer
"There is one thing stronger than all the armies in the world, and that is an idea whose time has come." - Victor Hugo
Since I read the list for quite a while, I think it could be interesting for all of you to learn the view of someone not being a contributing member of the project.
Alex, the first impression entering the list is, that *you* are the only one project leader here. At least it was my first impression. And by the way, have you ever considered to change your attitude towards others? This seems not to be an option to you as I cannot find it in your list of choices. *This* is arrogant indeed, because it implies that your attitude may not be correct all the time (2nd choice), but well, you just don't care and won't change it anyways.
Now you have the outsider's *opinion* and I am not going to judge any other point in the discussion now. Maybe later if requested to do so.
You should really consider changing your attitude instead of putting it as an absolute fact, not allowing others to mention that they don't like it. Or just think about it as a first step. It could be a good choice to have a break from the project for one month or so because it will also change your view on things ...
Best regards,
Oliver
I like Alex and he is helping alot in diffent area, and without him it should take year maby to solv some real havey problem and implement new stuff for now one have time todo so, or some time missing the small knowlgews how todo it. But it is not always I and Alex agreed some part. and I t hankfull that people can question if it right or wrong. But often it leads to smaller fight stead trying figout what it should or new bugs. everyone can do souch mistake.
I want Aleax stay in ReactOS as devloper he doing really good works and we manger getting new programmers everysummer and they stay in ReactOS. few programmers have leave ReactOS for the got private issue. Like famliy, no time the work get over handed.
Tamlin = have no time codoing on ReactOS for now, but he hope getting time soon Vizzi = Did leave for private issue EA = No time to coding on ReactOS and do not know when he is back or not Jasson = No time for coding or project cordinator for now.
And me often only have 1-2 days everyweek coding on ReactOS now. It is at every weekend and I need also wacthing over my stepmopther kids, and the often runing to me every 10-20mins at weekend for the want something. Like how to start the computer game, how to change vhs or dvd in living room for they for not doing that self.
for my small company gott to much work doing for costumers. And I love see I got more time for ReactOS.
it is not alex fault people do not have time or quit ReactOS.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Alex Ionescu" ionucu@videotron.ca To: "ReactOS Development List" ros-dev@reactos.com Sent: den 4 December 2005 04:44 Subject: [ros-dev] My attitude
Hi,
It was Steven's idea that I should post this emai and I agreedl, so please don't take it as my personal childish attempt to get attention, unless you find that both I and Steven (our Project Coordinator) are children.
Steven has recently expressed his opinion that: (modified quote so that "your" -> "my")
"My arrogant attitude hurts this project more then any amount of code or patches I commit will ever help it."
Therefore, since:
- I really care about this project
- I don't wish to spend time writing useless code (since no amount of
code will help the project more then I hurt it, then the code is useless, like heating a room where the windows are open in winter).
I think it's important to know if this is a public opinion or not, so I am opening a public ML vote. If it is, then I will gladly leave and stop hurting this project, since those were not my intentions when I joined. If this is the case, then I only regret for having stayed here so long and done nothing but hurt the project for almost two years now, and I'm sorry.
[ ] Alex's arrogant attitude hurts this project more then his code helps it. Alex should therefore leave, so that the project can stop being hurt. [ ] Alex's arrogant attitude is annoying at times but his presence in this project significantly helps it grow and move towards reaching its goals, and does not hurt the project.
Best regards, Alex Ionescu _______________________________________________ Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
Hi,
On 12/4/05, Magnus Olsen magnus@itkonsult-olsen.com wrote:
it is not alex fault people do not have time or quit ReactOS.
Please don't misunderstand. I never said it was, I just have had some people say that they did not like some things and I asked Alex to chill out on them. Our discussion just got a little too heated and I admit my words were not polite by any means. I am sorry for that and do not wish to lay any blame on anyone for anything. I don't want him to leave the project and I am not blaming him for driving anyone away. I don't believe he has, I just think based on some comments I have gathered that some people were reluctant to work with him because of attitude and my statement to him was supposed to be, if some developers left is it worth it long term. I just wanted him to ask if anyone that was bothered provide feedback.
-- Steven Edwards - ReactOS and Wine developer
"There is one thing stronger than all the armies in the world, and that is an idea whose time has come." - Victor Hugo
Well, +1 on the arrogance, but I won't vote on such a thing. IMHO we have to deal with such issues another way. There are a few things that have bothered me for a while which I list here.
[15:48] <CIA-8> sgasiorek * r19366 reactos/lib/aclui/ (aclui.rc aclui_Pl.rc): added Polish resource [15:49] <tamlin> Brezenbak: I disagree. That's an explicit read. [15:49] <GedMurphy> sgasiorek ?? [15:49] <Fireball> silverblade? [15:49] * Exception wait for Alex to say who is that? ;-) [15:49] <Fireball> seems no [15:49] <Alex_Ionescu> Exception: its an inside joke [15:49] <Alex_Ionescu> who the heck is sgasiorek [15:49] <Exception> lol [15:50] <silverblade> yes? [15:50] * Naru-Ayato has joined #reactos [15:50] <Alex_Ionescu> oh right i forgot, now everyone and his grandma gets an svn account
For several weeks there have been complaints every time I have granted a new developer commit access. This has not only been from Alex, but also 2-3 other committers or so IIRC. What is the problem here? Giving other developers commit access, will not "degrade" your own status as a committer. If you have a problem with someone getting commit access, then bring it up on the mailing list, but be prepared to come up with better arguments than "I don't know him". It's innocent until proven guilty with regard to getting commit access.
Alex gone on kicking spree on IRC. Maybe we need to vote on an official IRC policy. I don't think such behaviour is particularly nice.
[04:33] * Tortel is now known as Tort-afk [04:33] <Alex_Ionescu> chris38-home: are you a bot [04:34] <Alex_Ionescu> i think you are.. [04:34] <Alex_Ionescu> oh, he's not [04:34] <Alex_Ionescu> he has talked. once. [04:35] <arty> i've seen him talk [04:35] <Alex_Ionescu> ok..next.. [04:36] * Tort-afk is now known as Tortel [04:36] <Alex_Ionescu> illissius: talk [04:36] <Alex_Ionescu> illissius: are you a bot? [04:36] <Bizzeh> Alex_Ionescu: where can i find this class designer [04:36] <Alex_Ionescu> i think you are! [04:37] <Alex_Ionescu> i don't like bots :D:D [04:37] <Alex_Ionescu> or lurkers [04:37] <silverblade> Alex_Ionescu: is this a new game? lol [04:37] * Talley wonders of his place on Alex's "REPLY OR I WILL BE FORCED TO KICK YOU OUT" list [04:37] <Alex_Ionescu> in fact, i have never seen you talk.. [04:37] <Alex_Ionescu> and that goes against our valuable channel rules.. [04:37] <Alex_Ionescu> you have 25 seconds to respond :D [04:37] <Alex_Ionescu> MAY THIS BE A SIGN TO ALL LURKERS [04:37] <Alex_Ionescu> ALEX IS WATCHING [04:37] <silverblade> [illissius] #ruby-lang #kde +#techreport #haiku #reactos #plasma #openusability #kde4-devel #webkit #khtml #ksvg #koffice #amarok #kde-devel [04:37] <Alex_Ionescu> ALEX KNOWS ABOUT YOU [04:37] <Alex_Ionescu> ALEX WILL GET YOU [04:38] <Alex_Ionescu> 15 seconds :D [04:38] <silverblade> that seems an awful lot of channels to be logged into [04:38] * Talley hides behind cia-8 [04:38] <Alex_Ionescu> 10 [04:38] <Alex_Ionescu> 8 [04:38] <Alex_Ionescu> 7 [04:38] <Alex_Ionescu> 5 [04:38] <Alex_Ionescu> 3 [04:38] <silverblade> Alex_Ionescu: what happened to 9 and 6? [04:38] <silverblade> were you saving them for a 69 [04:38] * illissius was kicked by Alex_Ionescu (lurking) [04:38] <Alex_Ionescu> yeah, logged in so many channels [04:38] <Alex_Ionescu> yeah, logged in so many channels [04:38] <Alex_Ionescu> can only mean one thing [04:39] <mf> pfft [04:39] * silverblade applauds how far illissius was booted [04:39] <Alex_Ionescu> bot or logger [04:39] <mf> what's wrong with lurking [04:39] <Talley> :) [04:39] <Alex_Ionescu> mf: it's against our policies [04:39] <Bizzeh> argh [04:39] <jimtabor> $1 for a logger bot [04:39] <silverblade> who HONESTLY scrolls back through logs [04:39] <silverblade> after lurking [04:39] <Talley> in that case I should have been kicked long ago :/ [04:39] <mf> i idle on #linux on ircnet [04:39] <silverblade> esp. on that many channels [04:39] <mf> 18:23 < qrto> psycheye: you broke it !!! [04:39] <mf> 18:23 < psycheye> why? [04:39] <mf> 18:23 < qrto> 261 days of idling ! [04:39] <mf> 18:23 <@ichiban> ye [04:39] <mf> 18:23 <@ichiban> it'll be tough to break that one now [04:39] <mf> 18:24 < qrto> :) [04:39] <mf> 18:24 < qrto> i could try ! [04:39] <mf> 18:24 < Nadriel> Even harder if you talk.. [04:39] <mf> 18:24 < qrto> naaaaaaaaah [04:39] <mf> 18:24 <@ichiban> mf is second with only 157d [04:39] <mf> i still haven't said anything since that [04:39] <mf> :D [04:40] <mf> but i don't log, and i'm not a bot either [04:40] <Bizzeh> all i wanna do is change #pragma once to #ifndef __${PROJECTNAME}_${CLASSNAME}_H_ #define __${PROJECTNAME}_${CLASSNAME}_H_ class def here #endif //!__${PROJECTNAME}_${CLASSNAME}_H_ [04:40] <silverblade> maybe it'll teach the bot/loggers to turn their pcs OFF and save the environment :p [04:40] <Alex_Ionescu> well, now i feel stupid [04:40] <Alex_Ionescu> lol [04:40] <Alex_Ionescu> http://cia.navi.cx/stats/author/illissius [04:40] <Alex_Ionescu> he's a KDE dev [04:41] <mf> lol [04:41] <mf> and an idler [04:41] <mf> :) [04:41] <Talley> pwned :)
Personally, I don't mind Alex.
My only issue is I do often feel like I'm *working for him*, rather than contributing to an open-source project. For example, I discussed sound coding and then left it for a little while, and he got on my back about it.
And occasionally if I ask a question, I'll get a kind of "are you stupid?" response (something similar anyway) which can be a little degrading.
He did confuse me in the chat which Exception posted, as at the time I asked about SVN access. I'm pretty sure originally he said SVN write access was restricted to the few people who commit the most, so I assumed I didn't fit in to that bracket and didn't bother asking for write access.
Despite all this, Alex is very helpful. Certainly no reason why he should leave the project completely as he does a lot of work, but open-source development I always believed to be a "do what you want to do, when you want to to it" concept (obviously not including things like deliberately breaking the build or whatever!) And it's a learning curve.
It doesn't bother me too much though and I wouldn't leave the project over it myself. I'm used to people saying "get on with it" and "do it this way because this way is right" so I guess that's probably my way of learning.
Casper Hornstrup wrote:
[15:48] <CIA-8> sgasiorek * r19366 reactos/lib/aclui/ (aclui.rc aclui_Pl.rc): added Polish resource [15:49] <tamlin> Brezenbak: I disagree. That's an explicit read. [15:49] <GedMurphy> sgasiorek ?? [15:49] <Fireball> silverblade? [15:49] * Exception wait for Alex to say who is that? ;-) [15:49] <Fireball> seems no [15:49] <Alex_Ionescu> Exception: its an inside joke [15:49] <Alex_Ionescu> who the heck is sgasiorek [15:49] <Exception> lol [15:50] <silverblade> yes? [15:50] * Naru-Ayato has joined #reactos [15:50] <Alex_Ionescu> oh right i forgot, now everyone and his grandma gets an svn account
For several weeks there have been complaints every time I have granted a new developer commit access. This has not only been from Alex, but also 2-3 other committers or so IIRC. What is the problem here? Giving other developers commit access, will not "degrade" your own status as a committer. If you have a problem with someone getting commit access, then bring it up on the mailing list, but be prepared to come up with better arguments than "I don't know him". It's innocent until proven guilty with regard to getting commit access.
Alex is young and intelligent, which naturally leads to arrogance, but I have long since gotten numb to his behaviour, since there are plenty of people like him in my life. To his credit, Alex is one of the few reasons I am still involved with this project, and sometimes, I *do* feel like I am working for him. ;0) Without Alex I am sure this project would be different, but I'm not sure if it would be better or worse.
As I have said before, it's these very arguments on public project mailing lists that hurt this project more than anything. It's arguments like these that make me want to leave, not any one's attitude. They take up resources and contribute nothing. Just keep in mind that these emails will be found by people looking for answers to questions for a long time to come.
I've seen this problem again and again. The contributors to the project are some of the brightest people I have ever met (in this field), and when you get a group of intelligent people together, invariably egos get in the mix and you have this childish bickering about STUPID SHIT. I've seen this happen to PHDs that were twice my age, and should have known better.
If you have a problem with someones attitude, I expect you to take it up with them directly and privately. If that doesn't work, step away for a day or two, and reflect upon what this project means to you.
WD
Alex Helps. Alex code is good. Keep Alex.
I work with Neuro Surgeons and they are all jerks. (I am not saying Alex is a jerk.) But attitude is good.
On 12/4/05, WaxDragon waxdragon@gmail.com wrote:
Alex is young and intelligent, which naturally leads to arrogance,but I have long since gotten numb to his behaviour, since there are plenty of people like him in my life. To his credit, Alex is one of the few reasons I am still involved with this project, and sometimes, I *do* feel like I am working for him. ;0) Without Alex I am sure this project would be different, but I'm not sure if it would be better or worse.
As I have said before, it's these very arguments on public projectmailing lists that hurt this project more than anything. It's arguments like these that make me want to leave, not any one's attitude. They take up resources and contribute nothing. Just keep in mind that these emails will be found by people looking for answers to questions for a long time to come.
I've seen this problem again and again. The contributors to theproject are some of the brightest people I have ever met (in this field), and when you get a group of intelligent people together, invariably egos get in the mix and you have this childish bickering about STUPID SHIT. I've seen this happen to PHDs that were twice my age, and should have known better.
If you have a problem with someones attitude, I expect you to takeit up with them directly and privately. If that doesn't work, step away for a day or two, and reflect upon what this project means to you.
WD
Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
-- David Johnson http://www.davefilms.us Producer
Andrew "Silver Blade" Greenwood wrote:
And occasionally if I ask a question, I'll get a kind of "are you stupid?" response (something similar anyway) which can be a little degrading.
I'm sorry if you found it as such. I always thought you took them as a joke, which they were. I often say 'are you stupid' to my closest friends when they ask things like "are we monday today?" when it's a Tuesday. I don't mean it and they know it. Perhaps I need to watch my mouth on IRC.
He did confuse me in the chat which Exception posted, as at the time I asked about SVN access. I'm pretty sure originally he said SVN write access was restricted to the few people who commit the most, so I assumed I didn't fit in to that bracket and didn't bother asking for write access.
I must've told you like five times on PM to ask for commit access...
Casper Hornstrup wrote:
Well, +1 on the arrogance, but I won't vote on such a thing. IMHO we have to deal with such issues another way. There are a few things that have bothered me for a while which I list here.
For several weeks there have been complaints every time I have granted a new developer commit access. This has not only been from Alex, but also 2-3 other committers or so IIRC. What is the problem here?
I've explained this to you on IRC, it doesn't respect the rules we setup about this. Just like the time with Andrew becoming TC didn't respect the rules.
Giving other developers commit access, will not "degrade" your own status as a committer.
I never said that, nor did the other people which complained.
If you have a problem with someone getting commit access, then bring it up on the mailing list, but be prepared to come up with better arguments than "I don't know him". It's innocent until proven guilty with regard to getting commit access.
Alex gone on kicking spree on IRC. Maybe we need to vote on an official IRC policy. I don't think such behaviour is particularly nice.
I was merely having fun executing our IRC policy, which says "no idling". The people that were kicked had not talked in months, and could potentially have been logger robots. If you had a problem with it, why didn't you step in?
Thanks for your comments. Best regards, Alex Ionescu
-----Original Message----- From: ros-dev-bounces@reactos.org [mailto:ros-dev-bounces@reactos.org] On Behalf Of Alex Ionescu Sent: 4. december 2005 17:57 To: ReactOS Development List Subject: Re: [ros-dev] My attitude
I was merely having fun executing our IRC policy, which says "no idling". The people that were kicked had not talked in months, and could potentially have been logger robots. If you had a problem with it, why didn't you step in?
Thanks for your comments. Best regards, Alex Ionescu
I'm usually not awake at 4:30am.
What is the reason for this rule? There are 100 people in that channel so communication would break down if they all talked. I think this rule should be removed.
Casper
Casper Hornstrup wrote:
-----Original Message----- From: ros-dev-bounces@reactos.org [mailto:ros-dev-bounces@reactos.org] On Behalf Of Alex Ionescu Sent: 4. december 2005 17:57 To: ReactOS Development List Subject: Re: [ros-dev] My attitude
I was merely having fun executing our IRC policy, which says "no idling". The people that were kicked had not talked in months, and could potentially have been logger robots. If you had a problem with it, why didn't you step in?
Thanks for your comments. Best regards, Alex Ionescu
I'm usually not awake at 4:30am.
What is the reason for this rule? There are 100 people in that channel so communication would break down if they all talked. I think this rule should be removed.
Casper
Just remove it from the Wiki, I have no objections. It's always been an open policy...
Best regards, Alex Ionescu
Are you sure a public mailing list is the right place for this? Don't hide behind Steven on this, he didn't put a gun to your head to force you to make the post, you decided for yourself. Since the cat seems to be out of the bag anyway:
Another +1 on the arrogance. I got so tired of it I decided to drop out of the IRC channel. It won't make me leave the project though, the world doesn't revolve around Alex.
What worries me far more is your tendency to immediately turn to IDA to find out how something is implemented in Windows. A recent example, when the question came up how to prevent umpnpmgr from popping up dialogs during second stage setup, you told us that IDA revealed that Windows uses such and such registry key for that. Why would we need to implement this identical to Windows? Why not create a independent implementation (which could happen to be the same, only arrived at independently)? When asked about stuff like this, your reply is that reverse engineering is legal. I don't dispute it is, when done properly. I'm just not sure that the way you're doing it, reverse engineering Windows and then writing ReactOS code, is proper. I have no solid evidence either way on whether it's legal or not legal and I'd rather err on the side of caution. In short, I do think your contributions potentially present a major threat to the project.
GvG
Ge van Geldorp wrote:
Are you sure a public mailing list is the right place for this? Don't hide behind Steven on this, he didn't put a gun to your head to force you to make the post, you decided for yourself.
You have GOT to stop putting words in my mouth, it's gotten really annoying.
A recent example, when the question came up how to prevent umpnpmgr from popping up dialogs during second stage setup, you told us that IDA revealed that Windows uses such and such registry key for that.
I actually used "Strings" to dump out the registry keys. That's not reverse engineering.
Why would we need to implement this identical to Windows? Why not create a independent implementation (which could happen to be the same, only arrived at independently)?
Uhh..let's see...because that key is 1) Public 2) Documented 3) Recommended for use by 3rd party software.
When asked about stuff like this, your reply is that reverse engineering is legal.
No, my reply is that 1) this wasn't reverse engineering. 2) This key HAD to be copied. Doing it "independently" would break any app using it. 3) This key is public info.
I don't dispute it is, when done properly. I'm just not sure that the way you're doing it, reverse engineering Windows and then writing ReactOS code, is proper.
I don't do that, that is against the ReactOS IP Policy. Please explain how you go to from "he found a registry string" to "he reverses code then writes ReactOS code"
I have no solid evidence either way on whether it's legal or not legal and I'd rather err on the side of caution. In short, I do think your contributions potentially present a major threat to the project.
Thanks for your comments. However, I find the fact that you've been ignoring me whenever I try to talk to you on IRC, and then decide to leave, and that you now make public accusations ("reverse engineering Windows and then writing ReactOS code" happens to be good enough reason to kick someone out) is pretty arrogant too. Just my 2 cents.
GvG
Best regards, Alex Ionescu
[ ] Alex's arrogant attitude hurts this project more then his code helps it. Alex should therefore leave, so that the project can stop being hurt. [ ] Alex's arrogant attitude is annoying at times but his presence in this project significantly helps it grow and move towards reaching its goals, and does not hurt the project. [*] Alex's arrogant attitude is annoying at times but his presence in this project significantly helps it grow and move towards reaching its goals, and does not hurt the project; and it is a trait that he has in common with the leaders of some of the most successful open source projects out there
people dont know what having fun is today :)) (even its about idling in a channel)
Witukind wrote:
I think the project would stagnate without Alex.
+1 +1 "it's easy if you try ... but [you are] not the only one" (singing)
--- Alex Ionescu ionucu@videotron.ca a écrit :
Hi,
It was Steven's idea that I should post this emai and I agreedl, so please don't take it as my personal childish attempt to get attention, unless you find that both I and Steven (our Project Coordinator) are children.
Steven has recently expressed his opinion that: (modified quote so that "your" -> "my")
"My arrogant attitude hurts this project more then any amount of code or patches I commit will ever help it."
Therefore, since:
- I really care about this project
- I don't wish to spend time writing useless code (since no amount of
code will help the project more then I hurt it, then the code is useless, like heating a room where the windows are open in winter).
I think it's important to know if this is a public opinion or not, so I am opening a public ML vote. If it is, then I will gladly leave and stop hurting this project, since those were not my intentions when I joined. If this is the case, then I only regret for having stayed here so long and done nothing but hurt the project for almost two years now, and I'm sorry.
[ ] Alex's arrogant attitude hurts this project more then his code helps it. Alex should therefore leave, so that the project can stop being hurt. [ ] Alex's arrogant attitude is annoying at times but his presence in this project significantly helps it grow and move towards reaching its goals, and does not hurt the project.
Best regards, Alex Ionescu _______________________________________________ Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
Kind regards, Sylvain Petreolle (aka Usurp) --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- Tired of a proprietary Windows on your computer ? Use free ReactOS instead ( http://www.reactos.org )
His attitude doesn't really bother me that much. Sometimes I feel like silverblade in the fact that he makes me feel dumb. But there is a reason for that. ;)
I wouldn't like to see Alex leave, he helps me a lot...
Brandon
Alex Ionescu wrote:
Hi,
It was Steven's idea that I should post this emai and I agreedl, so please don't take it as my personal childish attempt to get attention, unless you find that both I and Steven (our Project Coordinator) are children.
Steven has recently expressed his opinion that: (modified quote so that "your" -> "my")
"My arrogant attitude hurts this project more then any amount of code or patches I commit will ever help it."
Therefore, since:
- I really care about this project
- I don't wish to spend time writing useless code (since no amount of
code will help the project more then I hurt it, then the code is useless, like heating a room where the windows are open in winter).
I think it's important to know if this is a public opinion or not, so I am opening a public ML vote. If it is, then I will gladly leave and stop hurting this project, since those were not my intentions when I joined. If this is the case, then I only regret for having stayed here so long and done nothing but hurt the project for almost two years now, and I'm sorry.
[ ] Alex's arrogant attitude hurts this project more then his code helps it. Alex should therefore leave, so that the project can stop being hurt. [ ] Alex's arrogant attitude is annoying at times but his presence in this project significantly helps it grow and move towards reaching its goals, and does not hurt the project.
Best regards, Alex Ionescu _______________________________________________ Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
I have experienced some attitude from a variety of people on the mailing-list, and irc. I believe each persons way of doing things are different. Logging all communications both on IRC and Mailing-lists would allow users, developers, and internet browsers. Logging irc would allow people to see what is happening on IRC. I had a great deal of flaming and difficulty on IRC. With logging people can see what is going on and if there is any arrogance people would be able to see it. Also if something is important integration with the wiki would be great. On Dec 3, 2005, at 9:44 PM, Alex Ionescu wrote:
Hi,
It was Steven's idea that I should post this emai and I agreedl, so please don't take it as my personal childish attempt to get attention, unless you find that both I and Steven (our Project Coordinator) are children.
Steven has recently expressed his opinion that: (modified quote so that "your" -> "my")
"My arrogant attitude hurts this project more then any amount of code or patches I commit will ever help it."
Therefore, since:
- I really care about this project
- I don't wish to spend time writing useless code (since no amount
of code will help the project more then I hurt it, then the code is useless, like heating a room where the windows are open in winter).
I think it's important to know if this is a public opinion or not, so I am opening a public ML vote. If it is, then I will gladly leave and stop hurting this project, since those were not my intentions when I joined. If this is the case, then I only regret for having stayed here so long and done nothing but hurt the project for almost two years now, and I'm sorry.
[ ] Alex's arrogant attitude hurts this project more then his code helps it. Alex should therefore leave, so that the project can stop being hurt. [ ] Alex's arrogant attitude is annoying at times but his presence in this project significantly helps it grow and move towards reaching its goals, and does not hurt the project.
Best regards, Alex Ionescu _______________________________________________ Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
Rick Langschultz wrote:
I have experienced some attitude from a variety of people on the mailing-list, and irc. I believe each persons way of doing things are different. Logging all communications both on IRC and Mailing-lists would allow users, developers, and internet browsers. Logging irc would allow people to see what is happening on IRC. I had a great deal of flaming and difficulty on IRC. With logging people can see what is going on and if there is any arrogance people would be able to see it. Also if something is important integration with the wiki would be great. On Dec 3, 2005, at 9:44 PM, Alex Ionescu wrote:
Do you working for the CIA (MI5, KGB, MAD, Stasi, ...)? Usually, a secret service will try to log all conversations. IRC is way, where people do speak what they currently thinking. I don't see a reason to log this conversation.
- Hartmut
agreed :) --- Hartmut Birr osexpert@googlemail.com a écrit :
Do you working for the CIA (MI5, KGB, MAD, Stasi, ...)? Usually, a secret service will try to log all conversations. IRC is way, where people do speak what they currently thinking. I don't see a reason to log this conversation.
- Hartmut
Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
Kind regards, Sylvain Petreolle (aka Usurp) --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- Tired of a proprietary Windows on your computer ? Use free ReactOS instead ( http://www.reactos.org )
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