My attitude

[Alex Ionescu]

Hi,

It was Steven's idea that I should post this emai and I agreedl, so 
please don't take it as my personal childish attempt to get attention, 
unless you find that both I and Steven (our Project Coordinator) are 
children.

Steven has recently expressed his opinion that: (modified quote so that 
"your" -> "my")

"My arrogant attitude hurts this project more then any amount of code or 
patches I commit will ever help it."

Therefore, since:

1) I really care about this project
2) I don't wish to spend time writing useless code (since no amount of 
code will help the project more then I hurt it, then the code is 
useless, like heating a room where the windows are open in winter).

I think it's important to know if this is a public opinion or not, so I 
am opening a public ML vote. If it is, then I will gladly leave and stop 
hurting this project, since those were not my intentions when I joined. 
If this is the case, then I only regret for having stayed here so long 
and done nothing but hurt the project for almost two years now, and I'm 
sorry.

[ ] Alex's arrogant attitude hurts this project more then his code helps 
it. Alex should therefore leave, so that the project can stop being hurt.
[ ] Alex's arrogant attitude is annoying at times but his presence in 
this project significantly helps it grow and move towards reaching its 
goals, and does not hurt the project.

Best regards,
Alex Ionescu

[Andrew Flynn]

>  
>  [ ] Alex's arrogant attitude hurts this project more then his code 
>  helps it. Alex should therefore leave, so that the project can stop 
>  being hurt.
>  [*] Alex's arrogant attitude is annoying at times but his presence in 
>  this project significantly helps it grow and move towards reaching its 
>  goals, and does not hurt the project.
>
>

[Witukind]

I think the project would stagnate without Alex.

[Wesley Parish]

On Sun, 04 Dec 2005 21:16, Witukind wrote:
>   I think the project would stagnate without Alex.
Seconded.
>   _______________________________________________
>  Ros-dev mailing list
>  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
>  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev 
-- 
Clinersterton beademung, with all of love - RIP James Blish
-----
Mau e ki, he aha te mea nui?
You ask, what is the most important thing?
Maku e ki, he tangata, he tangata, he tangata.
I reply, it is people, it is people, it is people.

[Thomas Weidenmueller]

Witukind wrote:
>   I think the project would stagnate without Alex.
I doubt that'd be a problem as it didn't before he joined, so why should
it now? People join and leave once in a while, no reason to stop. It's
not like he's the only person with knowledge. This does *not* mean that
I want him to leave.

Arrogance certainly is an issue but I don't really care as I usually
ignore those moments and don't comment on them, everyone has his/her
flaws. What bothers me more is the "ownership" of code issue. These
large "rewrites" of functions/files is annoying, especially when holding
everything back for months and then committing everything in one single
huge commit (I'm not talking about headers fixes, because those
certainly do require loads of changes in one commit). This of course is
a reason then to claim (full) ownership of the code, and dare you touch
it in such a way that it's less close to windows. For me, I do *not*
want to clone internal things 100%, there are many reasons why this is a
bad idea. However, since I'd write code that wouldn't be "perfect" in
this aspect, I no longer work on the kernel as I'd interfere with this
attitude. I wouldn't want to submit a patch and seeing everything gone a
month later just because it wasn't a next to perfect clone of the
original code, even if it worked perfectly and as expected. That's also
one of the reasons I abandoned win32k, i just wouldn't want to copy
every little detail just because it "must be perfect" because MS wrote
it. This leads me to the constant IDA/ASM digging in MS binaries, I
don't think it's good for the project to copy every little detail based
on unnecessary reverse engineering. Testing and thinking about things a
little longer is a good method to being able to implement many things,
of course not all, especially completely undocumented interfaces. And
just because MS did something a specific way doesn't mean they're god
and that it's perfect. Also the frequent "Cutler adoration" on IRC is
*very* annoying to me, he is *not* god.

This are my 2 cents, I don't want anyone to take it personally,
especially Alex. I just won't consider ReactOS a clean-room
implementation anymore if this trend continues, which would make me
leave due to legal issues.

- Thomas

P.S.: I do *not* oppose reverse engineering per se, there are situations
where it's necessary (in order to accomplish compatibility)

[Alex Ionescu]

Thomas Weidenmueller wrote:

>  Witukind wrote:
>   
>
> >  I think the project would stagnate without Alex.
> >     
> >  
> I doubt that'd be a problem as it didn't before he joined, so why should
> it now? People join and leave once in a while, no reason to stop. It's
> not like he's the only person with knowledge. This does *not* mean that
> I want him to leave.
>
> Arrogance certainly is an issue but I don't really care as I usually
> ignore those moments and don't comment on them, everyone has his/her
> flaws. What bothers me more is the "ownership" of code issue. These
> large "rewrites" of functions/files is annoying, especially when holding
> everything back for months and then committing everything in one single
> huge commit 
>  
I now have a local SVN setup to handle my incremental patches. Other 
developers do not. Other developers still commit code in one single huge 
commit, yet you don't complain about it.

>  (I'm not talking about headers fixes, because
> those
> certainly do require loads of changes in one commit). This of course is
> a reason then to claim (full) ownership of the code, and dare you touch
> it in such a way that it's less close to windows. For me, I do *not*
> want to clone internal things 100%, there are many reasons why this is a
> bad idea. However, since I'd write code that wouldn't be "perfect" in
> this aspect, I no longer work on the kernel as I'd interfere with this
> attitude.
>  
You no longer work on the kernel because you don't have a lot of time on 
your hands; you've told me yourself. I think you're being a bit 
hypocritcal with your argument. You commited a pretty large handle table 
implementation which we talked about at length. You made it clear it was 
not Windows internal compatible. What were my comments? Did I not praise 
you for it? Did I not appreciate you for it? It's been in the tree for a 
year. Have I ever made an attempt to "rewrite it"? Did I ever said I would?

How about when I asked you to improve it with some new code. What was 
your response? It was "I don't have time with university", not "you
want 
it to be perfect, like windows".

Yes, I hated your Object Capture patch because it wasn't using a public 
capture structure and we got into a big argument about it, but you might 
want to remember how much I've appreciated and loved your ExHandle patch.

>   I wouldn't want to submit a patch and seeing
> everything gone a
> month later just because it wasn't a next to perfect clone of the
> original code, even if it worked perfectly and as expected. That's also
>   
>
> one of the reasons I abandoned win32k, i just wouldn't want to copy
> every little detail just because it "must be perfect" because MS wrote
> it. 
>  
I never had anything to do with win32k. I barely know how it works, and 
you had win32k rewrites ongoing before I even joined the project. How 
can you possibly blame this on me, when you publically stated OTHER 
reasons for dropping win32k?

>  This leads me to the constant IDA/ASM digging in MS
> binaries, I
> don't think it's good for the project to copy every little detail based
> on unnecessary reverse engineering. Testing and thinking about things a
> little longer is a good method to being able to implement many things,
> of course not all, especially completely undocumented interfaces.
>  
Point taken.

>   And
> just because MS did something a specific way doesn't mean they're god
> and that it's perfect. 
>  
I think you and I can both find several instances where we made fun of 
the way MS wrote a certain piece of code, and found better ways to do 
it. So you can't accuse me of that.

>  Also the frequent "Cutler adoration" on IRC
> is
> *very* annoying to me, he is *not* god.
>   
>  
You aren't seriously bringing this up are you. What's next? An email to 
KJK saying "Cheesecake is not the official food of ReactOS damn it, I 
HATE CHEESECAKE!!!"?

>  This are my 2 cents, I don't want anyone to take it
> personally,
> especially Alex. I just won't consider ReactOS a clean-room
> implementation anymore if this trend continues, which would make me
> leave due to legal issues.
>   
>
> - Thomas
>
> P.S.: I do *not* oppose reverse engineering per se, there are situations
> where it's necessary (in order to accomplish compatibility)
>   
>  
Those are the only times I've used IDA.

Best regards,
Alex Ionescu

[Thomas Weidenmueller]

Alex Ionescu wrote:
>   I now have a local SVN setup to handle my incremental
> patches. Other
>  developers do not. Other developers still commit code in one single huge
>  commit, yet you don't complain about it. 
You don't anymore which is a good thing, I shouldn't have brought this
up again because it's no longer current.

>   You no longer work on the kernel because you don't
> have a lot of time on
>  your hands; you've told me yourself. I think you're being a bit
>  hypocritcal with your argument. You commited a pretty large handle table
>  implementation which we talked about at length. You made it clear it was
>  not Windows internal compatible. What were my comments? Did I not praise
>  you for it? Did I not appreciate you for it? It's been in the tree for a
>  year. Have I ever made an attempt to "rewrite it"? Did I ever said I would?
The time issue is rather recent. But seeing what other parts of the
kernel have completely be "rewritten" (don't get me wrong, it's not a
bad thing) makes me thinking that if I write a not-so-close-to-MS
implementation, there's a good chance it will be completley replaced
anytime soon, so why start at all. This might not be true but this is
the impression I got over the last year or so.

>   How about when I asked you to improve it with some new
> code. What was
>  your response? It was "I don't have time with university", not "you
> want
>  it to be perfect, like windows". 
Again, time is a recent issue.

>   Yes, I hated your Object Capture patch because it
> wasn't using a public
>  capture structure and we got into a big argument about it, but you might
>  want to remember how much I've appreciated and loved your ExHandle patch. 
I just don't understand the point in duplicating a completely internal
function just because there's on structure (accidently?) made public
that can't even be used by 3rd party software. I wouldn't have cared
much if the new version didn't introduce so many bugs. However, that's
history and I don't think it's about loving or hating someone else's
patches.

>   I never had anything to do with win32k. I barely know
> how it works, and
>  you had win32k rewrites ongoing before I even joined the project. How
>  can you possibly blame this on me, when you publically stated OTHER
>  reasons for dropping win32k? 
You said that you think it's important to make the (completely
undocumented) system calls to win32k (NtUser, NtGdi) binary compatible.
I absolutely don't agree with this because there's no need for doing
this. However, I do agree with you on NtD3d and NtDd because those are
actually documented. And I don't blame you on this, there's other more
important reasons, that's why i said "one of the reasons".

>   You aren't seriously bringing this up are you.
> What's next? An email to
>  KJK saying "Cheesecake is not the official food of ReactOS damn it, I
>  HATE CHEESECAKE!!!"? 
I'm bringing this up because I find it extremely annoying, about as much
annoying as those "links" posted from time to time. Gladly that seems to
have reduced recently. Sorry, but it just adds up when everytime you
look at the irc channel it's all about Cutler. There are also other
issues that I found annoying, and I'm certain that there are many things
people find annoying about me as well. We all have our flaws.

I just wrote down what bothered me, I wouldn't have done it if you
hadn't "begged" for it. I'm also sorry that sometimes I tend to be
rather resentful and dig out old issues. I don't intend to comment
further on this topic as it most likely would lead to unnecessary
disagreements (again). I assumed that you also expected critizism when
posting about such a sensitive topic.

- Thomas

[Nate DeSimone]

    I've been reading this list for about 2.5 years now, I have stuff as 
far back in my archive as when RMS posted to the channel regarding GPL 
issues with drivers and even before that, certainly before Alex even 
joined the project, and I have to say that NEVER in that history have I 
seen straight flaming between developers like this on the public list.  
Now correct me if I'm wrong, but it looks like its some of the older 
developers all being really annoyed with a newer developer (aka Alex,) 
while the newer developers while still annoyed deal with him.  Believe 
me when I say this, I have been on a team before where the old guys got 
fed up with the new guys, and it only took a few a short time for the 
team to fail, with the old guys forking off and making their own new 
group and the new guys doing the same.  Project forking in the case of 
ReactOS would be fatal, it would mean tons of duplicated effort and 
years added to the time frame for a working product.  And quite frankly 
from what I've seen it appears that Alex has enough people behind him as 
well as technical ability to successfully operate an active fork, I'm 
not saying he would do this I'm just saying he has the ability if he 
wanted to.  I personally think that this is very unprofessional 
behavior, this should be resolved over something like skype not a public 
channel originally setup to aid COLLABORATION.  You guys know that there 
are people from MSDN that read this list and post about it in their 
blogs right?  Anyway guys, my point here is this isn't just the fault of 
Alex, it is EVERYONES fault, work it out, I want to see ReactOS 1.0, not 
ReactOS 0.5 and <reactos fork name here> 0.5

[Aleksey Bragin]

Hi,
I joined before Alex, so according to your theory I should hate him,  
but it's not the case :-)
There were small flamewars previously also -- but you have to take in  
account that project was smaller back in that time, I think.

Anyway of course it's also a style, and I personally speak with  
people in their own style - I don't know why, but it happens to me  
naturally. Official? Ok, we speak official. Inofficially, friendly?  
No problem. Arguing - great (unless it starts hurting people, then  
it's bad).
I like to argue sometimes, but of course I mean polite arguing. Like  
about politics with Steven (Stalin vs. Hitler is my favorite topic),  
about religion with Alex might be. All people have different point of  
views, and I respect them, and I like to learn something new during  
arguing - that's not bad.

As for voting, I like KJK very much:
>  Is the abuse of voting lame and boring?
> [] Yes 


WBR,
Aleksey.
P.S. Please, really, getting all this stuff(read: s..t) into mailing  
list is not a good for project's image. Many of us have skype, icq,  
emails, etc. It should be quite enough. And we have #reactos at last/ 
at first :)
And one more thing - I miss GvG in #reactos ;)


On Dec 4, 2005, at 9:35 PM, Nate DeSimone wrote:

>      I've been reading this list for about 2.5 years
> now, I have  
>  stuff as far back in my archive as when RMS posted to the channel  
>  regarding GPL issues with drivers and even before that, certainly  
>  before Alex even joined the project, and I have to say that NEVER  
>  in that history have I seen straight flaming between developers  
>  like this on the public list.  Now correct me if I'm wrong, but it  
>  looks like its some of the older developers all being really  
>  annoyed with a newer developer (aka Alex,) while the newer  
>  developers while still annoyed deal with him.  Believe me when I  
>  say this, I have been on a team before where the old guys got fed  
>  up with the new guys, and it only took a few a short time for the  
>  team to fail, with the old guys forking off and making their own  
>  new group and the new guys doing the same.  Project forking in the  
>  case of ReactOS would be fatal, it would mean tons of duplicated  
>  effort and years added to the time frame for a working product.   
>  And quite frankly from what I've seen it appears that Alex has  
>  enough people behind him as well as technical ability to  
>  successfully operate an active fork, I'm not saying he would do  
>  this I'm just saying he has the ability if he wanted to.  I  
>  personally think that this is very unprofessional behavior, this  
>  should be resolved over something like skype not a public channel  
>  originally setup to aid COLLABORATION.  You guys know that there  
>  are people from MSDN that read this list and post about it in their  
>  blogs right?  Anyway guys, my point here is this isn't just the  
>  fault of Alex, it is EVERYONES fault, work it out, I want to see  
>  ReactOS 1.0, not ReactOS 0.5 and <reactos fork name here> 0.5
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  Ros-dev mailing list
>  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
>  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev

[Steven Edwards]

Hi,

On 12/4/05, Aleksey Bragin <aleksey(a)studiocerebral.com> wrote:
>   about politics with Steven (Stalin vs. Hitler is my
> favorite topic),
>  about religion with Alex might be. All people have different point of 
Like I said on IRC, we all go off topic sometimes and there is nothing
wrong with that. I did not want to start a flame war and I would like
to end it now. Alex has heard peoples views on many issues

>   And one more thing - I miss GvG in #reactos ;) 
I do too, thats partly why I had the discussion with him. I think
Exception, GvG and w3seek have thier own grivances with Alex that I
hope can be resolved. I was not trying to drive him away, I have just
felt a undertone of stress directed toward him and I thought attuide
might have something to do with it. Each of the above listed slightly
different things that bothered them and its up to them to work it out.

I know I do things that piss people off all the time (like suggesting
Alex ask here how he is viewed). Knowning that GvG left #ReactOS
because of it and seeing things the way I did bothered me but I did
not handle it the right way and I am sorry for that. If I am doing
something wrong, I want you to tell me and I will address it. I
promise I will tone my language down and avoid a flamewar on the list
in the future.

--
Steven Edwards - ReactOS and Wine developer

"There is one thing stronger than all the armies in the world, and
that is an idea whose time has come." - Victor Hugo

[Ge van Geldorp]

>   From: Steven Edwards
>
>  Knowning that GvG left #ReactOS because of it 
Just to make this absolutely clear: it was my own decision to leave
#reactos, I'm not trying to shift responsibility to Alex ("he left me no
other choice"), obviously I did have a choice. Basically, I just want to
have fun coding a challenging project (yeah, I know, I'm a geek and proud of
it) and hanging out in #reactos at times annoyed me so much that it took
away some of the fun. Sometimes I do miss the nice contacts though, so
perhaps I'll become a "regular" again later. In the mean time, if
there's
anything I can help with just drop me an email or contact me on MSN (userid
is in my forum profile).

GvG

[Nate DeSimone]

>   I joined before Alex, so according to your theory I
> should hate him,  
>  but it's not the case :-)
>  There were small flamewars previously also -- but you have to take in  
>  account that project was smaller back in that time, I think.
>  
Well I did say *some* older developers not all, I didn't want to mention 
names.  You are right there have been small flame wars on the list 
before, but I remember them being more reserved.

>   All people have different point of  views, and I
> respect them, and I 
>  like to learn something new during  arguing - that's not bad. 
I'm not saying that arguing is bad, if noone argued then the 
implementation would be crap, usually the best idea survives in a debate 
(not always of course, see elected officials.)  But just throwing 
insults at each other doesn't help anything, expect perhaps breaking 
down relations between developers.  All I'm asking is people work out 
their differences face to face, instead of throwing stuff over wall at 
each other in plain sight.  And most importantly get over it and return 
to devoting time to coding instead of flaming.

[Brian]

 I have been reading the mailing list for a long time now, and i have to
say, i have recently noticed a building up of this childish crap. I was
thinkin of tryin to work on the project a little, maybe even submitt a
patch, but after reading all of this today (i haven't checked my mail in a
while), im not sure i will.
This isn't because of Alex. In my opinion, one dev shouldn't be the reason
for a new dev beeing turned away from a project. I haven't seen everything
that goes on, but from the way i have seen things, the lintch mob has been
sent out jus because everyone doesn't always agree w/ one dev. An atitude of
arragance may be hard to deal w/ at times, but when you make a big fuss
about it, as it seems everyone has, your'e justifying it. Honestly, if there
is going to be a big fuss about how he gets stuff done, why don't how
everyone does things get brought into question?
So Alex, how do you feel about how the other devs do things?

[Alex Ionescu]

Brian wrote:

>  
>  So Alex, how do you feel about how the other devs do things?
>    
Haha..hi Brian :)

First of all, let me say that you shouldn't be discouraged by the 
endless tirades on the ML...I think they are signs of a healthy 
project..much like a couple arguing. It's not like all we do is argue in 
here.. we have sometimes up to 100 commits a day (which for a project 
this small, is a lot).

As for your question, it's simple to answer... people here do things in 
the following way: "Like they want to". And that's why I like ReactOS 
and a lot of devs like working here. Because there are no rules on how 
you should code, what you should code, if you should code, etc. Casper 
for example is very adamant about this (Note: I'm not trying to say 
there aren't any general rules, but nobody is going to tell you 'use 
spaces, not tabs' or 'write audio for 0.4.0, not video code!'). So I 
feel good that everyone can work at their own pace, in the way that they 
want.

OTOH, I think there needs to be better project management and a 
cooperation mentality, something akin to a real start-up software 
company. I have this dream where everyone is using Visual Studio Team 
System and writing patches for bug reports, using peer-review, managing 
meetings, doing nightly test builds, filling out test cases.... but I'm 
sure that would put many people off. (even though it would cut 
development time by a year at least)

Best regards,
Alex Ionescu

[Brian]

See everyone, simple enough. I felt very happy with Alexs responce to my
msg. Obiously he isn't as bad as most people you would encounter on the net
( and i have encountered my share of jerkoffs ). So if Alex is capable of
speaking to a potential dev in such a good tone, how could it ever be a
situation of his attitude chasing off new devs. And if it comes to old devs,
they should be able to sho some maturity, and look at the problem from his
point of view. This seems to be missing from the process. Surely someone is
capable of being mature.

[*] Alex isn't the problem, maturity is...

[David Johnson]

Applause!

On 12/5/05, Brian <briandabrain(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>  
>  See everyone, simple enough. I felt very happy with Alexs responce to my
>  msg. Obiously he isn't as bad as most people you would encounter on the net
>  ( and i have encountered my share of jerkoffs ). So if Alex is capable of
>  speaking to a potential dev in such a good tone, how could it ever be a
>  situation of his attitude chasing off new devs. And if it comes to old devs,
>  they should be able to sho some maturity, and look at the problem from his
>  point of view. This seems to be missing from the process. Surely someone is
>  capable of being mature.
>
>  [*] Alex isn't the problem, maturity is...
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  Ros-dev mailing list
>  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
>  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>
>  

--
David Johnson
http://www.davefilms.us
Producer

[Casper Hornstrup]

>   OTOH, I think there needs to be better project
> management and a
>  cooperation mentality, something akin to a real start-up software
>  company. I have this dream where everyone is using Visual Studio Team
>  System and writing patches for bug reports, using peer-review, managing
>  meetings, doing nightly test builds, filling out test cases.... but I'm
>  sure that would put many people off. (even though it would cut
>  development time by a year at least)
>  
>  Best regards,
>  Alex Ionescu 
Can you get Microsoft to donate licenses for VSTS to all ReactOS
developers? ;-)

Casper

[David Hinz]

Maybe we could get a big company as a sponsor?
I think, if we wrote to some companys like maybe IBM or so, we might 
find some good sponsors, who could maybe even provide us some full time 
coders. And this could really increase development speed.
But maybe they just want to help us out with some software or who knows 
what. We just have to ask and we will get an answer.

Greets,

David Hinz

Casper Hornstrup schrieb:
> >   OTOH, I think
> > there needs to be better project management and a
> >  cooperation mentality, something akin to a real start-up software
> >  company. I have this dream where everyone is using Visual Studio Team
> >  System and writing patches for bug reports, using peer-review, managing
> >  meetings, doing nightly test builds, filling out test cases.... but I'm
> >  sure that would put many people off. (even though it would cut
> >  development time by a year at least)
> >
> >  Best regards,
> >  Alex Ionescu 
>  
>  Can you get Microsoft to donate licenses for VSTS to all ReactOS
>  developers? ;-)
>  
>  Casper
>  
>  
>  _______________________________________________
>  Ros-dev mailing list
>  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
>  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>

[TwoTailedFox]

I can see IBM supporting us, since their last Good OS, OS/2, is now
efectively dead. I don't see some companies like Sun, or Novell,
supporting us, since they already have a vested interest in an
Operating System

What I'd really like to see are Hardware Manufacturers getting behind
us. Realtek, nVIDIA, ATi, Intel, AMD, VIA, etc, could all be
approached, and ask for collaboration on writing GPL Drivers (Although
nVIDIA is notoriously skeptical about open-source)


On 12/5/05, David Hinz <post.center(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>   Maybe we could get a big company as a sponsor?
>  I think, if we wrote to some companys like maybe IBM or so, we might
>  find some good sponsors, who could maybe even provide us some full time
>  coders. And this could really increase development speed.
>  But maybe they just want to help us out with some software or who knows
>  what. We just have to ask and we will get an answer.
>
>  Greets,
>
>  David Hinz
>
>  Casper Hornstrup schrieb:
> > >   OTOH, I
> > > think there needs to be better project management and a
> > >  cooperation mentality, something akin to a real start-up software
> > >  company. I have this dream where everyone is using Visual Studio Team
> > >  System and writing patches for bug reports, using peer-review, managing
> > >  meetings, doing nightly test builds, filling out test cases.... but I'm
> > >  sure that would put many people off. (even though it would cut
> > >  development time by a year at least)
> > >
> > >  Best regards,
> > >  Alex Ionescu 
> >  Can you get Microsoft to donate licenses for VSTS to all ReactOS
> >  developers? ;-)
> >
> >  Casper
> >
> >
> >  _______________________________________________
> >  Ros-dev mailing list
> >  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
> >  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> >  
>  _______________________________________________
>  Ros-dev mailing list
>  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
>  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>  

--
"I had a handle on life, but then it broke"

[Magnus Olsen]

Nivida will not agree on GPL licen for there drv
linux people have try getting GPL drv from nivida and the answers have
always be no.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "TwoTailedFox" <twotailedfox(a)gmail.com>
To: "ReactOS Development List" <ros-dev(a)reactos.org>
Sent: den 5 December 2005 21:18
Subject: Re: [ros-dev] My attitude


>   I can see IBM supporting us, since their last Good OS,
> OS/2, is now
>  efectively dead. I don't see some companies like Sun, or Novell,
>  supporting us, since they already have a vested interest in an
>  Operating System
>
>  What I'd really like to see are Hardware Manufacturers getting behind
>  us. Realtek, nVIDIA, ATi, Intel, AMD, VIA, etc, could all be
>  approached, and ask for collaboration on writing GPL Drivers (Although
>  nVIDIA is notoriously skeptical about open-source)
>
>
>  On 12/5/05, David Hinz <post.center(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>  > Maybe we could get a big company as a sponsor?
>  > I think, if we wrote to some companys like maybe IBM or so, we might
>  > find some good sponsors, who could maybe even provide us some full time
>  > coders. And this could really increase development speed.
>  > But maybe they just want to help us out with some software or who knows
>  > what. We just have to ask and we will get an answer.
>  >
>  > Greets,
>  >
>  > David Hinz
>  >
>  > Casper Hornstrup schrieb:
>  > >> OTOH, I think there needs to be better project management and a
>  > >> cooperation mentality, something akin to a real start-up software
>  > >> company. I have this dream where everyone is using Visual Studio Team
>  > >> System and writing patches for bug reports, using peer-review,
managing
>   > >> meetings, doing nightly test builds,
> filling out test cases.... but 
I'm
> > > >   sure that
> > > > would put many people off. (even though it would cut
> > > >  development time by a year at least)
> > > >
> > > >  Best regards,
> > > >  Alex Ionescu 
> > >  Can you get Microsoft to donate licenses for VSTS to all ReactOS
> > >  developers? ;-)
> > >
> > >  Casper
> > >
> > >
> > >  _______________________________________________
> > >  Ros-dev mailing list
> > >  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
> > >  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> > >  
> >  _______________________________________________
> >  Ros-dev mailing list
> >  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
> >  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> >  
>
>  --
>  "I had a handle on life, but then it broke"
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  Ros-dev mailing list
>  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
>  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev

[David Hinz]

I think we might have good chances that IBM will help us, especially 
with the OS/2 subsystem. And if they still had their PC-branch, I would 
guarantee they would help us, just to show MS that nobody depends on 
them, but unfortunately they don't have it anymore...
Anyway, I think IBM, Intel and maybe companys like Dell should be worth 
a try.

Greets,

David Hinz

Magnus Olsen schrieb:
>   Nivida will not agree on GPL licen for there drv
>  linux people have try getting GPL drv from nivida and the answers have
>  always be no.
>  
>  ----- Original Message ----- 
>  From: "TwoTailedFox" <twotailedfox(a)gmail.com>
>  To: "ReactOS Development List" <ros-dev(a)reactos.org>
>  Sent: den 5 December 2005 21:18
>  Subject: Re: [ros-dev] My attitude
>  
>  
> >   I can see IBM supporting us, since their last
> > Good OS, OS/2, is now
> >  efectively dead. I don't see some companies like Sun, or Novell,
> >  supporting us, since they already have a vested interest in an
> >  Operating System
> >
> >  What I'd really like to see are Hardware Manufacturers getting behind
> >  us. Realtek, nVIDIA, ATi, Intel, AMD, VIA, etc, could all be
> >  approached, and ask for collaboration on writing GPL Drivers (Although
> >  nVIDIA is notoriously skeptical about open-source)
> >
> >
> >  On 12/5/05, David Hinz <post.center(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Maybe we could get a big company as a sponsor?
> > > I think, if we wrote to some companys like maybe IBM or so, we might
> > > find some good sponsors, who could maybe even provide us some full time
> > > coders. And this could really increase development speed.
> > > But maybe they just want to help us out with some software or who knows
> > > what. We just have to ask and we will get an answer.
> > >
> > > Greets,
> > >
> > > David Hinz
> > >
> > > Casper Hornstrup schrieb:
> > >>> OTOH, I think there needs to be better project management and a
> > >>> cooperation mentality, something akin to a real start-up software
> > >>> company. I have this dream where everyone is using Visual Studio Team
> > >>> System and writing patches for bug reports, using peer-review, 
> managing
> >  >>> meetings, doing nightly test builds,
> > filling out test cases.... but 
>  I'm
> > > >  > sure that would put many people off. (even though
> > > > it would cut
> > > > > development time by a year at least)
> > > > >
> > > > > Best regards,
> > > > > Alex Ionescu
> > > >  Can you get Microsoft to donate licenses for VSTS to all ReactOS
> > > >  developers? ;-)
> > > >
> > > >  Casper
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >  _______________________________________________
> > > >  Ros-dev mailing list
> > > >  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
> > > >  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> > > >  
> > >  _______________________________________________
> > >  Ros-dev mailing list
> > >  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
> > >  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> > >  
> >  --
> >  "I had a handle on life, but then it broke"
> >
> >  _______________________________________________
> >  Ros-dev mailing list
> >  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
> >  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev 
>  
>  _______________________________________________
>  Ros-dev mailing list
>  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
>  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>

[TwoTailedFox]

Dell I can't see as being agreeable loading a direct Windows
Replacement, when most of their computers are shipped with Windows.
They'd see a sizeable portion of their income dropped, if Microsoft
decided to pull out of it.

IBM is currently being lobbied to make OS/2 Open-Source.. maybe WINE
and ReactOS should chip in to that petition?

On 12/5/05, David Hinz <post.center(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>   I think we might have good chances that IBM will help
> us, especially
>  with the OS/2 subsystem. And if they still had their PC-branch, I would
>  guarantee they would help us, just to show MS that nobody depends on
>  them, but unfortunately they don't have it anymore...
>  Anyway, I think IBM, Intel and maybe companys like Dell should be worth
>  a try.
>
>  Greets,
>
>  David Hinz
>
>  Magnus Olsen schrieb:
> >   Nivida will not agree on GPL licen for there drv
> >  linux people have try getting GPL drv from nivida and the answers have
> >  always be no.
> >
> >  ----- Original Message -----
> >  From: "TwoTailedFox" <twotailedfox(a)gmail.com>
> >  To: "ReactOS Development List" <ros-dev(a)reactos.org>
> >  Sent: den 5 December 2005 21:18
> >  Subject: Re: [ros-dev] My attitude
> >
> >
> > >   I can see IBM supporting us, since their last
> > > Good OS, OS/2, is now
> > >  efectively dead. I don't see some companies like Sun, or Novell,
> > >  supporting us, since they already have a vested interest in an
> > >  Operating System
> > >
> > >  What I'd really like to see are Hardware Manufacturers getting behind
> > >  us. Realtek, nVIDIA, ATi, Intel, AMD, VIA, etc, could all be
> > >  approached, and ask for collaboration on writing GPL Drivers (Although
> > >  nVIDIA is notoriously skeptical about open-source)
> > >
> > >
> > >  On 12/5/05, David Hinz <post.center(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > Maybe we could get a big company as a sponsor?
> > > > I think, if we wrote to some companys like maybe IBM or so, we might
> > > > find some good sponsors, who could maybe even provide us some full time
> > > > coders. And this could really increase development speed.
> > > > But maybe they just want to help us out with some software or who knows
> > > > what. We just have to ask and we will get an answer.
> > > >
> > > > Greets,
> > > >
> > > > David Hinz
> > > >
> > > > Casper Hornstrup schrieb:
> > > >>> OTOH, I think there needs to be better project management and a
> > > >>> cooperation mentality, something akin to a real start-up software
> > > >>> company. I have this dream where everyone is using Visual Studio Team
> > > >>> System and writing patches for bug reports, using peer-review, 
> > managing
> > >  >>> meetings, doing nightly test builds,
> > > filling out test cases.... but 
> >  I'm
> > > >  >>
> > > > sure that would put many people off. (even though it would cut
> > > > >> development time by a year at least)
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Best regards,
> > > > >> Alex Ionescu
> > > > > Can you get Microsoft to donate licenses for VSTS to all ReactOS
> > > > > developers? ;-)
> > > > >
> > > > > Casper
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Ros-dev mailing list
> > > > > Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
> > > > > http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> > > > >
> > > >  _______________________________________________
> > > >  Ros-dev mailing list
> > > >  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
> > > >  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> > > >  
> > >  --
> > >  "I had a handle on life, but then it broke"
> > >
> > >  _______________________________________________
> > >  Ros-dev mailing list
> > >  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
> > >  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev 
> >  _______________________________________________
> >  Ros-dev mailing list
> >  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
> >  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> >  
>  _______________________________________________
>  Ros-dev mailing list
>  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
>  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>  

--
"I had a handle on life, but then it broke"

[David Hinz]

Well, Dell is very mighty and they don't always agree with Microsofts 
opinions, so I would say it depends on the situation.
And for OS/2, this would be a big help for the OS/2 subsystem, but I 
think they can't do it, as OS/2 includes some MS-code, and I don't know 
who owns which rights. But who knows, hope dies last...

Greets,

David Hinz

TwoTailedFox schrieb:
>   Dell I can't see as being agreeable loading a
> direct Windows
>  Replacement, when most of their computers are shipped with Windows.
>  They'd see a sizeable portion of their income dropped, if Microsoft
>  decided to pull out of it.
>  
>  IBM is currently being lobbied to make OS/2 Open-Source.. maybe WINE
>  and ReactOS should chip in to that petition?
>  
>  On 12/5/05, David Hinz <post.center(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> > I think we might have good chances that IBM will help us, especially
> > with the OS/2 subsystem. And if they still had their PC-branch, I would
> > guarantee they would help us, just to show MS that nobody depends on
> > them, but unfortunately they don't have it anymore...
> > Anyway, I think IBM, Intel and maybe companys like Dell should be worth
> > a try.
> >
> > Greets,
> >
> > David Hinz
> >
> > Magnus Olsen schrieb:
> >> Nivida will not agree on GPL licen for there drv
> >> linux people have try getting GPL drv from nivida and the answers have
> >> always be no.

[Richard Campbell]

I'll disagree with this, Dell pays money for copies of the Windows 
Operating System, if a free, open source compatible clone were to come 
along, i think they'd jump on it in a heartbeat.

TwoTailedFox wrote:

>  Dell I can't see as being agreeable loading a
> direct Windows
> Replacement, when most of their computers are shipped with Windows.
> They'd see a sizeable portion of their income dropped, if Microsoft
> decided to pull out of it.
>
> IBM is currently being lobbied to make OS/2 Open-Source.. maybe WINE
> and ReactOS should chip in to that petition?
>
> On 12/5/05, David Hinz <post.center(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>   
>
> >  I think we might have good chances that IBM will
> > help us, especially
> > with the OS/2 subsystem. And if they still had their PC-branch, I would
> > guarantee they would help us, just to show MS that nobody depends on
> > them, but unfortunately they don't have it anymore...
> > Anyway, I think IBM, Intel and maybe companys like Dell should be worth
> > a try.
> >
> > Greets,
> >
> > David Hinz
> >
> > Magnus Olsen schrieb:
> >     
> >
> > >  Nivida will not agree on GPL licen for there drv
> > > linux people have try getting GPL drv from nivida and the answers have
> > > always be no.
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "TwoTailedFox" <twotailedfox(a)gmail.com>
> > > To: "ReactOS Development List" <ros-dev(a)reactos.org>
> > > Sent: den 5 December 2005 21:18
> > > Subject: Re: [ros-dev] My attitude
> > >
> > >
> > >       
> > >
> > > >  I can see IBM supporting us, since their last Good
> > > > OS, OS/2, is now
> > > > efectively dead. I don't see some companies like Sun, or Novell,
> > > > supporting us, since they already have a vested interest in an
> > > > Operating System
> > > >
> > > > What I'd really like to see are Hardware Manufacturers getting behind
> > > > us. Realtek, nVIDIA, ATi, Intel, AMD, VIA, etc, could all be
> > > > approached, and ask for collaboration on writing GPL Drivers (Although
> > > > nVIDIA is notoriously skeptical about open-source)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On 12/5/05, David Hinz <post.center(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >         
> > > >
> > > > >Maybe we could get a big company as a sponsor?
> > > > >I think, if we wrote to some companys like maybe IBM or so, we might
> > > > >find some good sponsors, who could maybe even provide us some full time
> > > > >coders. And this could really increase development speed.
> > > > >But maybe they just want to help us out with some software or who knows
> > > > >what. We just have to ask and we will get an answer.
> > > > >
> > > > >Greets,
> > > > >
> > > > >David Hinz
> > > > >
> > > > >Casper Hornstrup schrieb:
> > > > >          
> > > > >
> > > > >>>OTOH, I think there needs to be better project management and a
> > > > >>>cooperation mentality, something akin to a real start-up software
> > > > >>>company. I have this dream where everyone is using Visual Studio Team
> > > > >>>System and writing patches for bug reports, using peer-review,
> > > > >>>              
> > > > >>> 
> > > managing
> > >       
> > >
> > > >  >>>meetings, doing nightly test builds,
> > > > filling out test cases.... but
> > > > >>>              
> > > > >>> 
> > > I'm
> > >       
> > >
> > > >  >>>sure that would put many people off.
> > > > (even though it would cut
> > > > >>>development time by a year at least)
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>Best regards,
> > > > >>>Alex Ionescu
> > > > >>>              
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>Can you get Microsoft to donate licenses for VSTS to all ReactOS
> > > > >>developers? ;-)
> > > > >>
> > > > >>Casper
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>_______________________________________________
> > > > >>Ros-dev mailing list
> > > > >>Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
> > > > >>http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> > > > >>
> > > > >>            
> > > > >>
> > > > >_______________________________________________
> > > > >Ros-dev mailing list
> > > > >Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
> > > > >http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> > > > >
> > > > >          
> > > > >
> > > > --
> > > > "I had a handle on life, but then it broke"
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Ros-dev mailing list
> > > > Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
> > > > http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> > > >         
> > > >  
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Ros-dev mailing list
> > > Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
> > > http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> > >
> > >       
> > >  
> > _______________________________________________
> > Ros-dev mailing list
> > Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
> > http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> >
> >     
> >  
>
> --
> "I had a handle on life, but then it broke"
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ros-dev mailing list
> Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>
>   
>

[TwoTailedFox]

The Brand Name they're buying is worth the fee

On 12/5/05, Richard Campbell <eek2121(a)comcast.net> wrote:
>   I'll disagree with this, Dell pays money for
> copies of the Windows
>  Operating System, if a free, open source compatible clone were to come
>  along, i think they'd jump on it in a heartbeat.
>
>  TwoTailedFox wrote:
>
> >  Dell I can't see as being agreeable loading a
> > direct Windows
> > Replacement, when most of their computers are shipped with Windows.
> > They'd see a sizeable portion of their income dropped, if Microsoft
> > decided to pull out of it.
> >
> > IBM is currently being lobbied to make OS/2 Open-Source.. maybe WINE
> > and ReactOS should chip in to that petition?
> >
> > On 12/5/05, David Hinz <post.center(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> > >  I think we might have good chances that IBM will
> > > help us, especially
> > > with the OS/2 subsystem. And if they still had their PC-branch, I would
> > > guarantee they would help us, just to show MS that nobody depends on
> > > them, but unfortunately they don't have it anymore...
> > > Anyway, I think IBM, Intel and maybe companys like Dell should be worth
> > > a try.
> > >
> > > Greets,
> > >
> > > David Hinz
> > >
> > > Magnus Olsen schrieb:
> > >
> > >
> > > >  Nivida will not agree on GPL licen for there drv
> > > > linux people have try getting GPL drv from nivida and the answers have
> > > > always be no.
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "TwoTailedFox" <twotailedfox(a)gmail.com>
> > > > To: "ReactOS Development List" <ros-dev(a)reactos.org>
> > > > Sent: den 5 December 2005 21:18
> > > > Subject: Re: [ros-dev] My attitude
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >I can see IBM supporting us, since their last Good OS, OS/2, is now
> > > > >efectively dead. I don't see some companies like Sun, or Novell,
> > > > >supporting us, since they already have a vested interest in an
> > > > >Operating System
> > > > >
> > > > >What I'd really like to see are Hardware Manufacturers getting behind
> > > > >us. Realtek, nVIDIA, ATi, Intel, AMD, VIA, etc, could all be
> > > > >approached, and ask for collaboration on writing GPL Drivers (Although
> > > > >nVIDIA is notoriously skeptical about open-source)
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >On 12/5/05, David Hinz <post.center(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >>Maybe we could get a big company as a sponsor?
> > > > >>I think, if we wrote to some companys like maybe IBM or so, we might
> > > > >>find some good sponsors, who could maybe even provide us some full time
> > > > >>coders. And this could really increase development speed.
> > > > >>But maybe they just want to help us out with some software or who knows
> > > > >>what. We just have to ask and we will get an answer.
> > > > >>
> > > > >>Greets,
> > > > >>
> > > > >>David Hinz
> > > > >>
> > > > >>Casper Hornstrup schrieb:
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>>>OTOH, I think there needs to be better project management and a
> > > > >>>>cooperation mentality, something akin to a real start-up software
> > > > >>>>company. I have this dream where everyone is using Visual Studio Team
> > > > >>>>System and writing patches for bug reports, using peer-review,
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>
> > > > managing
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >>>>meetings, doing nightly test builds, filling out test cases.... but
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>
> > > > I'm
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >>>>sure that would put many people off. (even though it would cut
> > > > >>>>development time by a year at least)
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>Best regards,
> > > > >>>>Alex Ionescu
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>Can you get Microsoft to donate licenses for VSTS to all ReactOS
> > > > >>>developers? ;-)
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>Casper
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>_______________________________________________
> > > > >>>Ros-dev mailing list
> > > > >>>Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
> > > > >>>http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>_______________________________________________
> > > > >>Ros-dev mailing list
> > > > >>Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
> > > > >>http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >--
> > > > >"I had a handle on life, but then it broke"
> > > > >
> > > > >_______________________________________________
> > > > >Ros-dev mailing list
> > > > >Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
> > > > >http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Ros-dev mailing list
> > > > Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
> > > > http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >  
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Ros-dev mailing list
> > > Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
> > > http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> > >
> > >
> > >  
> >
> > --
> > "I had a handle on life, but then it broke"
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Ros-dev mailing list
> > Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
> > http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> >
> >
> >  
>  _______________________________________________
>  Ros-dev mailing list
>  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
>  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>  

--
"I had a handle on life, but then it broke"

[Andrew "Silver Blade" Greenwood]

Then we must ensure that our brand name is more valuable.

TwoTailedFox wrote:

>  The Brand Name they're buying is worth the fee
>
> On 12/5/05, Richard Campbell <eek2121(a)comcast.net> wrote:
>   
>
> >  I'll disagree with this, Dell pays money for
> > copies of the Windows
> > Operating System, if a free, open source compatible clone were to come
> > along, i think they'd jump on it in a heartbeat.
> >
> > TwoTailedFox wrote:
> >
> >     
> >
> > >  Dell I can't see as being agreeable loading a
> > > direct Windows
> > > Replacement, when most of their computers are shipped with Windows.
> > > They'd see a sizeable portion of their income dropped, if Microsoft
> > > decided to pull out of it.
> > >
> > > IBM is currently being lobbied to make OS/2 Open-Source.. maybe WINE
> > > and ReactOS should chip in to that petition?
> > >
> > > On 12/5/05, David Hinz <post.center(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >       
> > >
> > > >  I think we might have good chances that IBM will
> > > > help us, especially
> > > > with the OS/2 subsystem. And if they still had their PC-branch, I would
> > > > guarantee they would help us, just to show MS that nobody depends on
> > > > them, but unfortunately they don't have it anymore...
> > > > Anyway, I think IBM, Intel and maybe companys like Dell should be worth
> > > > a try.
> > > >
> > > > Greets,
> > > >
> > > > David Hinz
> > > >
> > > > Magnus Olsen schrieb:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >         
> > > >
> > > > >Nivida will not agree on GPL licen for there drv
> > > > >linux people have try getting GPL drv from nivida and the answers have
> > > > >always be no.
> > > > >
> > > > >----- Original Message -----
> > > > >From: "TwoTailedFox" <twotailedfox(a)gmail.com>
> > > > >To: "ReactOS Development List" <ros-dev(a)reactos.org>
> > > > >Sent: den 5 December 2005 21:18
> > > > >Subject: Re: [ros-dev] My attitude
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >          
> > > > >
> > > > >>I can see IBM supporting us, since their last Good OS, OS/2, is now
> > > > >>efectively dead. I don't see some companies like Sun, or Novell,
> > > > >>supporting us, since they already have a vested interest in an
> > > > >>Operating System
> > > > >>
> > > > >>What I'd really like to see are Hardware Manufacturers getting behind
> > > > >>us. Realtek, nVIDIA, ATi, Intel, AMD, VIA, etc, could all be
> > > > >>approached, and ask for collaboration on writing GPL Drivers (Although
> > > > >>nVIDIA is notoriously skeptical about open-source)
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>On 12/5/05, David Hinz <post.center(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>            
> > > > >>
> > > > >>>Maybe we could get a big company as a sponsor?
> > > > >>>I think, if we wrote to some companys like maybe IBM or so, we might
> > > > >>>find some good sponsors, who could maybe even provide us some full time
> > > > >>>coders. And this could really increase development speed.
> > > > >>>But maybe they just want to help us out with some software or who knows
> > > > >>>what. We just have to ask and we will get an answer.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>Greets,
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>David Hinz
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>Casper Hornstrup schrieb:
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>              
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>>>OTOH, I think there needs to be better project management and a
> > > > >>>>>cooperation mentality, something akin to a real start-up software
> > > > >>>>>company. I have this dream where everyone is using Visual Studio Team
> > > > >>>>>System and writing patches for bug reports, using peer-review,
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>                  
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >managing
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >          
> > > > >
> > > > >>>>>meetings, doing nightly test builds, filling out test cases.... but
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>                  
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >I'm
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >          
> > > > >
> > > > >>>>>sure that would put many people off. (even though it would cut
> > > > >>>>>development time by a year at least)
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>Best regards,
> > > > >>>>>Alex Ionescu
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>                  
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>Can you get Microsoft to donate licenses for VSTS to all ReactOS
> > > > >>>>developers? ;-)
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>Casper
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>_______________________________________________
> > > > >>>>Ros-dev mailing list
> > > > >>>>Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
> > > > >>>>http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>                
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>_______________________________________________
> > > > >>>Ros-dev mailing list
> > > > >>>Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
> > > > >>>http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>              
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>--
> > > > >>"I had a handle on life, but then it broke"
> > > > >>
> > > > >>_______________________________________________
> > > > >>Ros-dev mailing list
> > > > >>Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
> > > > >>http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>            
> > > > >>
> > > > >_______________________________________________
> > > > >Ros-dev mailing list
> > > > >Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
> > > > >http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >          
> > > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Ros-dev mailing list
> > > > Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
> > > > http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >         
> > > >  
> > > --
> > > "I had a handle on life, but then it broke"
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Ros-dev mailing list
> > > Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
> > > http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >       
> > >  
> > _______________________________________________
> > Ros-dev mailing list
> > Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
> > http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> >
> >     
> >  
>
> --
> "I had a handle on life, but then it broke"
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ros-dev mailing list
> Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>   
>

[Kai Moonbourn]

"Does the same thing but isn't from Microsoft" seems to be a pretty
effective pitch these days....

On 12/5/05, Andrew Silver Blade Greenwood <lists(a)silverblade.co.uk> wrote:
>  
>  Then we must ensure that our brand name is more valuable.
>
>  TwoTailedFox wrote:
>
> >  The Brand Name they're buying is worth the
> > fee
> >
> > On 12/5/05, Richard Campbell <eek2121(a)comcast.net> wrote:
> >
> >
> > >I'll disagree with this, Dell pays money for copies of the Windows
> > >Operating System, if a free, open source compatible clone were to come
> > >along, i think they'd jump on it in a heartbeat.
> > >
> > >TwoTailedFox wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >>Dell I can't see as being agreeable loading a direct Windows
> > >>Replacement, when most of their computers are shipped with Windows.
> > >>They'd see a sizeable portion of their income dropped, if Microsoft
> > >>decided to pull out of it.
> > >>
> > >>IBM is currently being lobbied to make OS/2 Open-Source.. maybe WINE
> > >>and ReactOS should chip in to that petition?
> > >>
> > >>On 12/5/05, David Hinz <post.center(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>>I think we might have good chances that IBM will help us, especially
> > >>>with the OS/2 subsystem. And if they still had their PC-branch, I 
> would
> >  >>>guarantee they would help us, just to
> > show MS that nobody depends on
> > >>>them, but unfortunately they don't have it anymore...
> > >>>Anyway, I think IBM, Intel and maybe companys like Dell should be 
> worth
> >  >>>a try.
> > >>>
> > >>>Greets,
> > >>>
> > >>>David Hinz
> > >>>
> > >>>Magnus Olsen schrieb:
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>>Nivida will not agree on GPL licen for there drv
> > >>>>linux people have try getting GPL drv from nivida and the answers 
> have
> >  >>>>always be no.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>----- Original Message -----
> > >>>>From: "TwoTailedFox" <twotailedfox(a)gmail.com>
> > >>>>To: "ReactOS Development List" <ros-dev(a)reactos.org>
> > >>>>Sent: den 5 December 2005 21:18
> > >>>>Subject: Re: [ros-dev] My attitude
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>>I can see IBM supporting us, since their last Good OS, OS/2, is now
> > >>>>>efectively dead. I don't see some companies like Sun, or Novell,
> > >>>>>supporting us, since they already have a vested interest in an
> > >>>>>Operating System
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>What I'd really like to see are Hardware Manufacturers getting
>  behind
> >  >>>>>us. Realtek, nVIDIA, ATi,
> > Intel, AMD, VIA, etc, could all be
> > >>>>>approached, and ask for collaboration on writing GPL Drivers 
> (Although
> >  >>>>>nVIDIA is notoriously
> > skeptical about open-source)
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>On 12/5/05, David Hinz <post.center(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>>Maybe we could get a big company as a sponsor?
> > >>>>>>I think, if we wrote to some companys like maybe IBM or so, we
>  might
> >  >>>>>>find some good sponsors,
> > who could maybe even provide us some full 
>  time
> >  >>>>>>coders. And this could
> > really increase development speed.
> > >>>>>>But maybe they just want to help us out with some software or who
>  knows
> >  >>>>>>what. We just have to ask
> > and we will get an answer.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>Greets,
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>David Hinz
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>Casper Hornstrup schrieb:
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>OTOH, I think there needs to be better project management
> > and a
> > >>>>>>>>cooperation mentality, something akin to a real start-up
> > software
> > >>>>>>>>company. I have this dream where everyone is using Visual
> > Studio 
>  Team
> >  >>>>>>>>System and writing
> > patches for bug reports, using peer-review,
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>managing
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>>>>>meetings, doing nightly test builds, filling out test
> > cases.... 
>  but
> > > >  >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>I'm
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>>>>>sure that would put many people off. (even though it would cut
> > > > >>>>>>development time by a year at least)
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>Best regards,
> > > > >>>>>>Alex Ionescu
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>Can you get Microsoft to donate licenses for VSTS to all ReactOS
> > > > >>>>>developers? ;-)
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>Casper
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>_______________________________________________
> > > > >>>>>Ros-dev mailing list
> > > > >>>>>Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
> > > > >>>>>http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>_______________________________________________
> > > > >>>>Ros-dev mailing list
> > > > >>>>Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
> > > > >>>>http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>--
> > > > >>>"I had a handle on life, but then it broke"
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>_______________________________________________
> > > > >>>Ros-dev mailing list
> > > > >>>Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
> > > > >>>http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>_______________________________________________
> > > > >>Ros-dev mailing list
> > > > >>Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
> > > > >>http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >_______________________________________________
> > > > >Ros-dev mailing list
> > > > >Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
> > > > >http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > --
> > > > "I had a handle on life, but then it broke"
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Ros-dev mailing list
> > > > Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
> > > > http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >  
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Ros-dev mailing list
> > > Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
> > > http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> > >
> > >
> > >  
> >
> > --
> > "I had a handle on life, but then it broke"
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Ros-dev mailing list
> > Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
> > http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> >
> >  
>  _______________________________________________
>  Ros-dev mailing list
>  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
>  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>

[David Hinz]

Dell is a big company and people believe what they tell them, so 
Microsoft would have to start a big campaign on TV and everywhere else, 
otherwise people would believe Dell, that ReactOS is the successor of 
Windows. There are a lot of possibilities, but we have to wait for the 
right moment.

Greets,

David Hinz

Kai Moonbourn schrieb:
>   "Does the same thing but isn't from
> Microsoft" seems to be a pretty 
>  effective pitch these days....

[Les Cooper]

Richard Campbell wrote:

>   I'll disagree with this, Dell pays money for
> copies of the Windows 
>  Operating System, if a free, open source compatible clone were to come 
>  along, i think they'd jump on it in a heartbeat. 

Dell now ship in the UK with Firefox pre installed, so they certainly 
aren't afraid if open source,.
cheers
Les

[Casper Hornstrup]

Dell needs to partner with a solid company which can support whatever OS they put on their
boxes. If there isn't one, then they
can't afford putting ReactOS on their boxes. OS licenses are cheap. People and
knowledge is expensive.

Casper

>   -----Original Message-----
>  From: ros-dev-bounces(a)reactos.org [mailto:[e-mail]] On Behalf Of
> Richard
>  Campbell
>  Sent: 6. december 2005 00:32
>  To: ReactOS Development List
>  Subject: Re: [ros-dev] My attitude
>  
>  I'll disagree with this, Dell pays money for copies of the Windows
>  Operating System, if a free, open source compatible clone were to come
>  along, i think they'd jump on it in a heartbeat.

[Kevin Hunter]

Casper Hornstrup wrote:
>   Dell needs to partner with a solid company which can
> support
>  whatever OS they put on their boxes. If there isn't one, then
>  they can't afford putting ReactOS on their boxes. OS licenses
>  are cheap. People and knowledge is expensive. 
I don't see the problem with simply asking.  Why not ask, let *them* do 
the thinking that we're doing on this list, and let *them* give us a 
definitive answer?  If they say, "Thanks, but no thanks," then it's no 
skin off our collective noses.  If they say yes, so much the better.

Kevin

[Casper Hornstrup]

Please do ;-)

>   -----Original Message-----
>  From: ros-dev-bounces(a)reactos.org [mailto:[e-mail]] On Behalf Of Kevin
> Hunter
>  Sent: 7. december 2005 04:40
>  To: ReactOS Development List
>  Subject: Re: [ros-dev] My attitude
>  
>  Casper Hornstrup wrote:
> >   Dell needs to partner with a solid company which
> > can support
> >  whatever OS they put on their boxes. If there isn't one, then
> >  they can't afford putting ReactOS on their boxes. OS licenses
> >  are cheap. People and knowledge is expensive. 
>  
>  I don't see the problem with simply asking.  Why not ask, let *them* do
>  the thinking that we're doing on this list, and let *them* give us a
>  definitive answer?  If they say, "Thanks, but no thanks," then it's no
>  skin off our collective noses.  If they say yes, so much the better.
>  
>  Kevin
>  _______________________________________________
>  Ros-dev mailing list
>  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
>  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev

[David Hinz]

I think it's better, if somebody like our PC asks such companies, if 
they want to support this project.

Greets,

David Hinz

Casper Hornstrup schrieb:
>   Please do ;-)
>  
> >   -----Original Message-----
> >  From: ros-dev-bounces(a)reactos.org [mailto:[e-mail]] On Behalf Of Kevin
> > Hunter
> >  Sent: 7. december 2005 04:40
> >  To: ReactOS Development List
> >  Subject: Re: [ros-dev] My attitude
> >
> >  Casper Hornstrup wrote:
> > >   Dell needs to partner with a solid company which
> > > can support
> > >  whatever OS they put on their boxes. If there isn't one, then
> > >  they can't afford putting ReactOS on their boxes. OS licenses
> > >  are cheap. People and knowledge is expensive. 
> >  I don't see the problem with
> > simply asking.  Why not ask, let *them* do
> >  the thinking that we're doing on this list, and let *them* give us a
> >  definitive answer?  If they say, "Thanks, but no thanks," then it's no
> >  skin off our collective noses.  If they say yes, so much the better.
> >
> >  Kevin
> >  _______________________________________________
> >  Ros-dev mailing list
> >  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
> >  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev 
>  
>  _______________________________________________
>  Ros-dev mailing list
>  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
>  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>

[Mark de Wit]

Don't forget about forward looking companies like Google.  Even though they 
have denied their interest in a GoogleOS, I could well imagine reactos being 
of interest to them.

Mark

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Hinz" <post.center(a)gmail.com>
>  I think it's better, if somebody like our PC asks
> such companies, if they 
> want to support this project.
>
>  Greets,
>
>  David Hinz
>
>  Casper Hornstrup schrieb:
> >   Please do ;-)
> >
> > >   -----Original Message-----
> > >  From: ros-dev-bounces(a)reactos.org [mailto:[e-mail]] 
> > >  On Behalf Of Kevin Hunter
> > >  Sent: 7. december 2005 04:40
> > >  To: ReactOS Development List
> > >  Subject: Re: [ros-dev] My attitude
> > >
> > >  Casper Hornstrup wrote:
> > > >   Dell needs to partner with a solid company which
> > > > can support
> > > >  whatever OS they put on their boxes. If there isn't one, then
> > > >  they can't afford putting ReactOS on their boxes. OS licenses
> > > >  are cheap. People and knowledge is expensive. 
> > >  I don't see the problem with
> > > simply asking.  Why not ask, let *them* do
> > >  the thinking that we're doing on this list, and let *them* give us a
> > >  definitive answer?  If they say, "Thanks, but no thanks," then it's no
> > >  skin off our collective noses.  If they say yes, so much the better.
> > >
> > >  Kevin
> > >  _______________________________________________
> > >  Ros-dev mailing list
> > >  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
> > >  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev 
> >  _______________________________________________
> >  Ros-dev mailing list
> >  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
> >  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> >  
>  _______________________________________________
>  Ros-dev mailing list
>  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
>  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>

[Rick Langschultz]

I think integration with Google using C APIs would be preferable.  
Google would be doing reactos a really great deal if the desktop  
search engine was opened up and given to the project. Even if by  
binary only distribution files. Since gds works on windows 2k and up  
it should be a great addition to the project. Or perhaps addition of  
an indexing engine to search for files and folders and index them  
when the system is idol.
On Dec 7, 2005, at 2:56 PM, Mark de Wit wrote:

>   Don't forget about forward looking companies like
> Google.  Even  
>  though they have denied their interest in a GoogleOS, I could well  
>  imagine reactos being of interest to them.
>
>  Mark
>
>  ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Hinz"  
>  <post.center(a)gmail.com>
> >   I think it's better, if somebody like our PC
> > asks such companies,  
> >  if they want to support this project.
> >
> >  Greets,
> >
> >  David Hinz
> >
> >  Casper Hornstrup schrieb:
> > >   Please do ;-)
> > >
> > > >   -----Original Message-----
> > > >  From: ros-dev-bounces(a)reactos.org [mailto:ros-dev- 
> > > >  bounces(a)reactos.org] On Behalf Of Kevin Hunter
> > > >  Sent: 7. december 2005 04:40
> > > >  To: ReactOS Development List
> > > >  Subject: Re: [ros-dev] My attitude
> > > >
> > > >  Casper Hornstrup wrote:
> > > > > Dell needs to partner with a solid company which can support
> > > > > whatever OS they put on their boxes. If there isn't one, then
> > > > > they can't afford putting ReactOS on their boxes. OS licenses
> > > > > are cheap. People and knowledge is expensive.
> > > >  I don't see the problem with simply asking.  Why not ask, let  
> > > >  *them* do
> > > >  the thinking that we're doing on this list, and let *them* give  
> > > >  us a
> > > >  definitive answer?  If they say, "Thanks, but no thanks," then  
> > > >  it's no
> > > >  skin off our collective noses.  If they say yes, so much the  
> > > >  better.
> > > >
> > > >  Kevin
> > > >  _______________________________________________
> > > >  Ros-dev mailing list
> > > >  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
> > > >  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev 
> > >  _______________________________________________
> > >  Ros-dev mailing list
> > >  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
> > >  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> > >  
> >  _______________________________________________
> >  Ros-dev mailing list
> >  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
> >  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev 
>  _______________________________________________
>  Ros-dev mailing list
>  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
>  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev

[Jerry]

I think Google would be a great partner with ReactOS. We may just what 
to ask them to sponser it.

Rick Langschultz wrote:

>   I think integration with Google using C APIs would be
> preferable.  
>  Google would be doing reactos a really great deal if the desktop  
>  search engine was opened up and given to the project. Even if by  
>  binary only distribution files. Since gds works on windows 2k and up  
>  it should be a great addition to the project. Or perhaps addition of  
>  an indexing engine to search for files and folders and index them  
>  when the system is idol.
>  On Dec 7, 2005, at 2:56 PM, Mark de Wit wrote:
>
> >   Don't forget about forward looking companies
> > like Google.  Even  
> >  though they have denied their interest in a GoogleOS, I could well  
> >  imagine reactos being of interest to them.
> >
> >  Mark
> >
> >  ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Hinz"  <post.center(a)gmail.com>
> >
> > >   I think it's better, if somebody like our PC
> > > asks such companies,  
> > >  if they want to support this project.
> > >
> > >  Greets,
> > >
> > >  David Hinz
> > >
> > >  Casper Hornstrup schrieb:
> > >
> > > >   Please do ;-)
> > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: ros-dev-bounces(a)reactos.org [mailto:ros-dev- 
> > > > > bounces(a)reactos.org] On Behalf Of Kevin Hunter
> > > > > Sent: 7. december 2005 04:40
> > > > > To: ReactOS Development List
> > > > > Subject: Re: [ros-dev] My attitude
> > > > >
> > > > > Casper Hornstrup wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >> Dell needs to partner with a solid company which can support
> > > > >> whatever OS they put on their boxes. If there isn't one, then
> > > > >> they can't afford putting ReactOS on their boxes. OS licenses
> > > > >> are cheap. People and knowledge is expensive.
> > > > >
> > > > > I don't see the problem with simply asking.  Why not ask, let  
> > > > > *them* do
> > > > > the thinking that we're doing on this list, and let *them* give  us a
> > > > > definitive answer?  If they say, "Thanks, but no thanks," then  
> > > > > it's no
> > > > > skin off our collective noses.  If they say yes, so much the  better.
> > > > >
> > > > > Kevin
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Ros-dev mailing list
> > > > > Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
> > > > > http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >  _______________________________________________
> > > >  Ros-dev mailing list
> > > >  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
> > > >  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> > > >  
> > >  _______________________________________________
> > >  Ros-dev mailing list
> > >  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
> > >  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev 
> >
> >  _______________________________________________
> >  Ros-dev mailing list
> >  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
> >  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev 
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  Ros-dev mailing list
>  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
>  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>

[Brian]

I think your asking alot. Google would have to have something major to gain
from such an venture. Where do they fit in when it comes to Reactos, and
making money (to things which seriously dont belong together)?  When you
look for a sponser, consider that their (err) probably not conserned with
the future of ReactOS. I think Dell, or for that matter, any pc manufacturer
would be the best idea, but thats just my opinion.

brian

[David Johnson]

Gensi makers of the Pegasos II mother board might be able to help. They are
into the PPC market.

On 12/8/05, Brian <briandabrain(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>  
>  I think your asking alot. Google would have to have something major to
>  gain from such an venture. Where do they fit in when it comes to Reactos,
>  and making money (to things which seriously dont belong together)?  When you
>  look for a sponser, consider that their (err) probably not conserned with
>  the future of ReactOS. I think Dell, or for that matter, any pc manufacturer
>  would be the best idea, but thats just my opinion.
>
>  brian
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  Ros-dev mailing list
>  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
>  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>
>  

--
David Johnson
http://www.davefilms.us
Producer

[Witukind]

If they ever do a Summer of Code next year, might be interresting to apply.

[David Hinz]

When you look at what MS wants to do (advertisments on every pc...) this 
perfectly fits, because then google would provide the ads (if we would 
really want to do this, but I don't think so) and not MS.

Google and MS are the biggest enemies in this market, so Google is happy 
over every cent MS doesn't get. If Google gets this cent or not isn't 
that important for them in that moment, the most important thing for 
them is that MS doesn't get it.
And the easiest way to reach this goal is to "steal" MS the platform 
they need, Windows. If they use Linux, ReactOS or whatever doesn't 
interest them.
You can see this when you look at the relationship between Google and 
Sun, they said, that they want to work together, I think the background 
is, that Google wants as many users as possible not to use MS Office, 
because MS wants to use it as an advertisment platform.

I hope you see, why such a relationship would be of interest for Google.

Greets,

David Hinz

Brian schrieb:
>   I think your asking alot. Google would have to have
> something major to 
>  gain from such an venture. Where do they fit in when it comes to 
>  Reactos, and making money (to things which seriously dont belong 
>  together)?  When you look for a sponser, consider that their (err) 
>  probably not conserned with the future of ReactOS. I think Dell, or for 
>  that matter, any pc manufacturer would be the best idea, but thats just 
>  my opinion.
>  
>  brian
>  
>  
>  ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>  
>  _______________________________________________
>  Ros-dev mailing list
>  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
>  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev

[Nate DeSimone]

OK, you are forgeting one thing, Google is a for profit corperation, 
their mission is not to "kill Microsoft," thier goal to  maximize 
profit, Microsoft has the exact same goal.  Google and Microsoft just 
happen to be in a Oligopoly right now which is why they both are focused 
on each other, because any move by one of them (be it hostile to the 
other company or not) will affect the other.  I'm sorry but Microsoft 
and Google both realize that users will not bear to have required 
advertising built in to the OS.  Which is why I fail to see is where 
Google plans to make its profits by working on ReactOS; in order for 
investment in ReactOS to be profitable, it must hold potential to 
increase Google's revenue.  One possible source of revenue is if Google 
plans to make a GoogleOS, base it on ReactOS, and sell the OS.  Of 
course they say they have no plans to do so at this time, noone really 
knows if they are planning to or not (expect of course their upper 
managers.)  But don't just assume that Google will automatically invest 
in the project just because it could hurt thier competitor's sales, they 
are interested in thier revenue, not Microsoft's.

David Hinz wrote:

>   When you look at what MS wants to do (advertisments on
> every pc...) 
>  this perfectly fits, because then google would provide the ads (if we 
>  would really want to do this, but I don't think so) and not MS.
>
>  Google and MS are the biggest enemies in this market, so Google is 
>  happy over every cent MS doesn't get. If Google gets this cent or not 
>  isn't that important for them in that moment, the most important thing 
>  for them is that MS doesn't get it.
>  And the easiest way to reach this goal is to "steal" MS the platform 
>  they need, Windows. If they use Linux, ReactOS or whatever doesn't 
>  interest them.
>  You can see this when you look at the relationship between Google and 
>  Sun, they said, that they want to work together, I think the 
>  background is, that Google wants as many users as possible not to use 
>  MS Office, because MS wants to use it as an advertisment platform.
>
>  I hope you see, why such a relationship would be of interest for Google.

[Mark de Wit]

Google has been competing with Microsoft on a tit-for-tat basis for some time now (desktop
search, Google Desktop, GoogleEarth, GoogleChat etc)... Imagine a Google
"distro" of reactOS integrating those apps out of the box.  That would be
fantastic, both for google and end-users (come on Google, we'd need a media player
too!).

But what does a PC distributor have to gain from bundling reactOS?  Sure, less cost per
unit, but think of support issues etc.

Mark
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Brian 
  To: ReactOS Development List 
  Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2005 4:40 PM
  Subject: Re: [ros-dev] Google Integration was: My attitude


  I think your asking alot. Google would have to have something major to gain from such an
venture. Where do they fit in when it comes to Reactos, and making money (to things which
seriously dont belong together)?  When you look for a sponser, consider that their (err)
probably not conserned with the future of ReactOS. I think Dell, or for that matter, any
pc manufacturer would be the best idea, but thats just my opinion. 

  brian



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  Ros-dev mailing list
  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev

[Rick Langschultz]

I agree. Google employees can spend 20% of their time on a special  
programming project; I wonder if any of them would choose ReactOS.
On Dec 8, 2005, at 7:02 AM, Jerry wrote:

>   I think Google would be a great partner with ReactOS.
> We may just  
>  what to ask them to sponser it.
>
>  Rick Langschultz wrote:
>
> >   I think integration with Google using C APIs
> > would be preferable.   
> >  Google would be doing reactos a really great deal if the desktop   
> >  search engine was opened up and given to the project. Even if by   
> >  binary only distribution files. Since gds works on windows 2k and  
> >  up  it should be a great addition to the project. Or perhaps  
> >  addition of  an indexing engine to search for files and folders  
> >  and index them  when the system is idol.
> >  On Dec 7, 2005, at 2:56 PM, Mark de Wit wrote:
> >
> > >   Don't forget about forward looking companies
> > > like Google.  Even   
> > >  though they have denied their interest in a GoogleOS, I could  
> > >  well  imagine reactos being of interest to them.
> > >
> > >  Mark
> > >
> > >  ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Hinz"   
> > >  <post.center(a)gmail.com>
> > >
> > > >   I think it's better, if somebody like our PC
> > > > asks such  
> > > >  companies,  if they want to support this project.
> > > >
> > > >  Greets,
> > > >
> > > >  David Hinz
> > > >
> > > >  Casper Hornstrup schrieb:
> > > >
> > > > > Please do ;-)
> > > > >
> > > > >> -----Original Message-----
> > > > >> From: ros-dev-bounces(a)reactos.org [mailto:ros-dev-  
> > > > >> bounces(a)reactos.org] On Behalf Of Kevin Hunter
> > > > >> Sent: 7. december 2005 04:40
> > > > >> To: ReactOS Development List
> > > > >> Subject: Re: [ros-dev] My attitude
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Casper Hornstrup wrote:
> > > > >>
> > > > >>> Dell needs to partner with a solid company which can support
> > > > >>> whatever OS they put on their boxes. If there isn't one, then
> > > > >>> they can't afford putting ReactOS on their boxes. OS licenses
> > > > >>> are cheap. People and knowledge is expensive.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> I don't see the problem with simply asking.  Why not ask, let   
> > > > >> *them* do
> > > > >> the thinking that we're doing on this list, and let *them*  
> > > > >> give  us a
> > > > >> definitive answer?  If they say, "Thanks, but no thanks,"  
> > > > >> then  it's no
> > > > >> skin off our collective noses.  If they say yes, so much the   
> > > > >> better.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Kevin
> > > > >> _______________________________________________
> > > > >> Ros-dev mailing list
> > > > >> Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
> > > > >> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Ros-dev mailing list
> > > > > Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
> > > > > http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> > > > >
> > > >  _______________________________________________
> > > >  Ros-dev mailing list
> > > >  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
> > > >  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev 
> > >
> > >  _______________________________________________
> > >  Ros-dev mailing list
> > >  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
> > >  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev 
> >
> >  _______________________________________________
> >  Ros-dev mailing list
> >  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
> >  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> >
> >  <crashfourit.vcf> 
>  _______________________________________________
>  Ros-dev mailing list
>  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
>  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev

[David Hinz]

Maybe, who knows.
But they have to know, that our project is existing, maybe then they 
would help us.
I see a huge potential, the desktop search could be our only search 
engine, saves a lot of time and nobody gets the stupid idea to use MSs 
desktopsearch (even if I think, that it wont run that good...) or 
something like the sidebar planned for Windows Vista (doesn't look like 
it will be included in RTM) could be integrated, using google services 
like search (using the adsense technology, but instead of showing ads 
showing "ordinary" searchresults) or maybe even things like wheather 
(don't know if google wheather is existing...) and of course shecking 
your googlemail.
But such potential exists for a lot of companies, so I think this is a 
topic that will be current for a long time...

Greets,

David Hinz

btw, please stop responding to these very offtopic mails, use my 
Industry Support thread instead...

Rick Langschultz schrieb:
>   I agree. Google employees can spend 20% of their time
> on a special 
>  programming project; I wonder if any of them would choose ReactOS.
>  On Dec 8, 2005, at 7:02 AM, Jerry wrote:
>  
> > I think Google would be a great partner with ReactOS. We may just what 
> > to ask them to sponser it.
> >
> > Rick Langschultz wrote:
> >
> >> I think integration with Google using C APIs would be preferable.  
> >> Google would be doing reactos a really great deal if the desktop  
> >> search engine was opened up and given to the project. Even if by  
> >> binary only distribution files. Since gds works on windows 2k and up  
> >> it should be a great addition to the project. Or perhaps addition of  
> >> an indexing engine to search for files and folders and index them  
> >> when the system is idol.

[Brian]

I guess I can see where you are coming from, but there is the whole sun
thing... The simple fact that they already have a partener,  who owns an OS
arch. means alot. To jump on ReactOS, they would have to be convinced that
ReactOS was worth it (that it was an equal, or better than MS WinNT), and
that it wouldn't cost them anything (porting wise). I think that such a task
is posible, becuase as you said, Google would gladly jump on the chance to
take pennies from Microsoft, and ReactOS can make that posible.

[Royce Mitchell III]

Brian wrote:

>   I guess I can see where you are coming from, but there
> is the whole 
>  sun thing... The simple fact that they already have a partener,  who 
>  owns an OS arch. means alot. To jump on ReactOS, they would have to be 
>  convinced that ReactOS was worth it (that it was an equal, or better 
>  than MS WinNT), and that it wouldn't cost them anything (porting 
>  wise). I think that such a task is posible, becuase as you said, 
>  Google would gladly jump on the chance to take pennies from Microsoft, 
>  and ReactOS can make that posible. 
Despite how certain members of the community might feel towards 
Microsoft... officially the ReactOS community is not out to hurt or 
destroy Microsoft. After all, Microsoft is the one that brought us the 
Windows platform we're so desperately trying to emulate.

I think this line of conjecture is inappropriate, particularly in this 
medium, and should be ended, or at least taken elsewhere.

[David Hinz]

Well, I didn't say our goal should be hurting or destroying Microsoft, 
but as far as I know our goal is to create a working Windows NT 
replacement. And that means, that we actually want to replace Windows.
And this is the point, where Google enters the stage, they want MS to 
earn as less money as possible, so that MS isn't too dangerous for 
Google. And how could you hinder Microsoft from earning money? Right, 
you 'just' have to steal them their platform they need for their 
business, Windows and Office (Microsoft knows, why they are producing 
the Xbox, it's a completely different business, so if the Windows and 
Office business goes down, they make their money with the Xbox). And 
what would be the best thing to pull people away from Windows and 
Office? Right again, it's something that is compatible and similiar, at 
the moment this would be OpenOffice and ReactOS. And as I mentioned in a 
previous mail, they are actually working together with Sun, in order to 
support OpenOffice.

I think, it would be hard to convince Google, but I see a chance for a 
very close relationship with Google, as both sides would profit of it a lot.

Greets,

David Hinz

Royce Mitchell III schrieb:
>   Brian wrote:
>  
> >   I guess I can see where you are coming from, but
> > there is the whole 
> >  sun thing... The simple fact that they already have a partener,  who 
> >  owns an OS arch. means alot. To jump on ReactOS, they would have to be 
> >  convinced that ReactOS was worth it (that it was an equal, or better 
> >  than MS WinNT), and that it wouldn't cost them anything (porting 
> >  wise). I think that such a task is posible, becuase as you said, 
> >  Google would gladly jump on the chance to take pennies from Microsoft, 
> >  and ReactOS can make that posible. 
>  
>  Despite how certain members of the community might feel towards 
>  Microsoft... officially the ReactOS community is not out to hurt or 
>  destroy Microsoft. After all, Microsoft is the one that brought us the 
>  Windows platform we're so desperately trying to emulate.
>  
>  I think this line of conjecture is inappropriate, particularly in this 
>  medium, and should be ended, or at least taken elsewhere.
>  
>  _______________________________________________
>  Ros-dev mailing list
>  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
>  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>

[Royce Mitchell III]

David Hinz wrote:

>   Well, I didn't say our goal should be hurting or
> destroying Microsoft, 
>  but as far as I know our goal is to create a working Windows NT 
>  replacement. And that means, that we actually want to replace Windows.
>  And this is the point, where Google enters the stage, they want MS to 
>  earn as less money as possible, so that MS isn't too dangerous for 
>  Google. And how could you hinder Microsoft from earning money? Right, 
>  you 'just' have to steal them their platform they need for their 
>  business, Windows and Office (Microsoft knows, why they are producing 
>  the Xbox, it's a completely different business, so if the Windows and 
>  Office business goes down, they make their money with the Xbox). And 
>  what would be the best thing to pull people away from Windows and 
>  Office? Right again, it's something that is compatible and similiar, 
>  at the moment this would be OpenOffice and ReactOS. And as I mentioned 
>  in a previous mail, they are actually working together with Sun, in 
>  order to support OpenOffice.
>
>  I think, it would be hard to convince Google, but I see a chance for a 
>  very close relationship with Google, as both sides would profit of it 
>  a lot. 
What you're saying doesn't make sense.

They're selling the new X-Box under cost to get a foothold in the 
market. Office 12 is, from what I hear, going to be a major innovative 
and I'm guessing they're going to get a lot of sales from it - every 
sale is pure profit ( minus their R&D ), whereas the X-Boxes aren't even 
selling for *hardware cost*. They're *hoping* to make up the loss 
through game sales, but game development is a tricky business.

I don't think any of us envision ReactOS replacing Windows. If anything, 
ReactOS will make Windows stronger:

1) ReactOS is already being used by driver writers to better understand 
the system they are ultimately programming for.

2) ReactOS is already being used by some universities in classes about 
the Windows architecture.

3) ReactOS will prevent some from migrating to Linux - this means more 
people staying within the Windows "system".

4) ReactOS will likely attract many who currently use Windows without 
paying for it - i.e. it will likely *reduce* piracy, allowing MS to 
concentrate more on it's paying customers.

I don't actually see Google being interested in ReactOS - why would they 
want to compete with Microsoft on MS's terms? ReactOS's success is based 
on the Win32 foundation, and will likely always be tied to it.

Anyways, whether or not Google is interested in ReactOS or not, their 
reasons for it ( or not ) are theirs alone. Anything else is 
speculation. Attributing malice towards MicroSoft by Google is 
unhealthy, and possibly libelous if not actually true. Let's talk about 
facts instead, like the fact that Google is willing to put money into 
Wine to get it's apps working on that platform. In essence, Google is 
already donating to us by doing this. Perhaps they'd be willing to help 
fund us directly. That's something we can talk to them about.

If we're going to speculate, speculate on how ReactOS can increase a 
potential investor's revenue. Anything else is worthless speculation, 
IMHO. This could even apply to MS. Anybody have any contacts at MS that 
might be willing to help ReactOS? As I said, I believe firmly that 
ReactOS can only benefit MS, and I hope they see it one day soon.

Finally, people are complaining this list is being abused. Ros-dev is 
about "development". This discussion needs to be moved to the forums, or 
maybe ros-general.

[Sarocet]

I don't agree. ReactOS is not enough mature. They'll not risk to support us, 
(against Microsoft, which they need) now that ReactOS is unable to equal it. 
(the project could break, for example).
It's better to wait until we can offer them a good OS.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Casper Hornstrup" <ch(a)csh-consult.dk>
Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2005 10:31 AM
Subject: RE: [ros-dev] My attitude


>   Please do ;-)
>
> >   -----Original Message-----
> >  From: ros-dev-bounces(a)reactos.org [mailto:[e-mail]] On 
> >  Behalf Of Kevin Hunter
> >  Sent: 7. december 2005 04:40
> >  To: ReactOS Development List
> >  Subject: Re: [ros-dev] My attitude
> >
> >  Casper Hornstrup wrote:
> > >   Dell needs to partner with a solid company which
> > > can support
> > >  whatever OS they put on their boxes. If there isn't one, then
> > >  they can't afford putting ReactOS on their boxes. OS licenses
> > >  are cheap. People and knowledge is expensive. 
> >  I don't see the problem with simply asking.  Why not ask, let *them* do
> >  the thinking that we're doing on this list, and let *them* give us a
> >  definitive answer?  If they say, "Thanks, but no thanks," then it's no
> >  skin off our collective noses.  If they say yes, so much the better.
> >
> >  Kevin
> >  _______________________________________________
> >  Ros-dev mailing list
> >  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
> >  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev 
>  _______________________________________________
>  Ros-dev mailing list
>  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
>  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev

[David Johnson]

ReactOS should join Power.ORG and port the OS to the PPC platform.

On 12/7/05, Sarocet <Sarocet(a)spymac.com> wrote:
>  
>  I don't agree. ReactOS is not enough mature. They'll not risk to support
>  us,
>  (against Microsoft, which they need) now that ReactOS is unable to equal
>  it.
>  (the project could break, for example).
>  It's better to wait until we can offer them a good OS.
>
>  ----- Original Message -----
>  From: "Casper Hornstrup" <ch(a)csh-consult.dk>
>  Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2005 10:31 AM
>  Subject: RE: [ros-dev] My attitude
>
>
> >   Please do ;-)
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: ros-dev-bounces(a)reactos.org [mailto:[e-mail]] 
>  On
> > >   Behalf Of
> > > Kevin Hunter
> > >  Sent: 7. december 2005 04:40
> > >  To: ReactOS Development List
> > >  Subject: Re: [ros-dev] My attitude
> > >
> > >  Casper Hornstrup wrote:
> > > >   Dell needs to partner with a solid company which
> > > > can support
> > > >  whatever OS they put on their boxes. If there isn't one, then
> > > >  they can't afford putting ReactOS on their boxes. OS licenses
> > > >  are cheap. People and knowledge is expensive. 
> > >  I don't see the problem with simply asking.  Why not ask, let *them* do
> > >  the thinking that we're doing on this list, and let *them* give us a
> > >  definitive answer?  If they say, "Thanks, but no thanks," then it's no
> > >  skin off our collective noses.  If they say yes, so much the better.
> > >
> > >  Kevin
> > >  _______________________________________________
> > >  Ros-dev mailing list
> > >  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
> > >  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev 
> >  _______________________________________________
> >  Ros-dev mailing list
> >  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
> >  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev 
>  _______________________________________________
>  Ros-dev mailing list
>  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
>  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>  


--
David Johnson
http://www.davefilms.us
Producer

[TwoTailedFox]

It *is* being ported.

On 12/7/05, David Johnson <davidjohnson.johnson(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>   ReactOS should join Power.ORG and port the OS to the
> PPC platform.
>
>
>  On 12/7/05, Sarocet <Sarocet(a)spymac.com> wrote:
> >   I don't agree. ReactOS is not enough mature.
> > They'll not risk to support 
>  us,
> >   (against Microsoft, which they need) now that
> > ReactOS is unable to equal 
>  it.
> >   (the project could break, for example).
> >  It's better to wait until we can offer them a good OS.
> >
> >  ----- Original Message -----
> >  From: "Casper Hornstrup" <ch(a)csh-consult.dk >
> >  Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2005 10:31 AM
> >  Subject: RE: [ros-dev] My attitude
> >
> >
> >  > Please do ;-)
> >  >
> >  >> -----Original Message-----
> >  >> From: ros-dev-bounces(a)reactos.org [mailto:[e-mail]] 
> On
> > > >   Behalf Of Kevin Hunter
> > > >  Sent: 7. december 2005 04:40
> > > >  To: ReactOS Development List
> > > >  Subject: Re: [ros-dev] My attitude
> > > >
> > > >  Casper Hornstrup wrote:
> > > >  > Dell needs to partner with a solid company which can support
> > > >  > whatever OS they put on their boxes. If there isn't one, then
> > > >  > they can't afford putting ReactOS on their boxes. OS licenses
> > > >  > are cheap. People and knowledge is expensive.
> > > >
> > > >  I don't see the problem with simply asking.  Why not ask, let *them* do
> > > >  the thinking that we're doing on this list, and let *them* give us a
> > > >  definitive answer?  If they say, "Thanks, but no thanks," then it's no
> > > >  skin off our collective noses.  If they say yes, so much the better.
> > > >
> > > >  Kevin
> > > >  _______________________________________________
> > > >  Ros-dev mailing list
> > > >  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
> > > >  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev 
> > >  _______________________________________________
> > >  Ros-dev mailing list
> > >  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
> > >  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev 
> >  _______________________________________________
> >  Ros-dev mailing list
> >  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
> >  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> >  
>
>
>  --
>  David Johnson
>   http://www.davefilms.us
>  Producer
>  _______________________________________________
>  Ros-dev mailing list
>  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
>  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>
>  

--
"I had a handle on life, but then it broke"

[David Johnson]

I know. But ROS foundation should join Power.ORG
IBM is a member.

On 12/7/05, TwoTailedFox <twotailedfox(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>  
>  It *is* being ported.
>
>  On 12/7/05, David Johnson <davidjohnson.johnson(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> >   ReactOS should join Power.ORG and port the OS to
> > the PPC platform.
> >
> >
> >  On 12/7/05, Sarocet <Sarocet(a)spymac.com> wrote:
> >  > I don't agree. ReactOS is not enough mature. They'll not risk to 
> support
> >   us,
> >  > (against Microsoft, which they need) now that ReactOS is unable to 
>  equal
> >   it.
> >  > (the project could break, for example).
> >  > It's better to wait until we can offer them a good OS.
> >  >
> >  > ----- Original Message -----
> >  > From: "Casper Hornstrup" <ch(a)csh-consult.dk >
> >  > Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2005 10:31 AM
> >  > Subject: RE: [ros-dev] My attitude
> >  >
> >  >
> >  > > Please do ;-)
> >  > >
> >  > >> -----Original Message-----
> >  > >> From: ros-dev-bounces(a)reactos.org [mailto: 
> ros-dev-bounces(a)reactos.org]
> >   On
> >  > >> Behalf Of Kevin Hunter
> >  > >> Sent: 7. december 2005 04:40
> >  > >> To: ReactOS Development List
> >  > >> Subject: Re: [ros-dev] My attitude
> >  > >>
> >  > >> Casper Hornstrup wrote:
> >  > >> > Dell needs to partner with a solid company which can support
> >  > >> > whatever OS they put on their boxes. If there isn't one, then
> >  > >> > they can't afford putting ReactOS on their boxes. OS licenses
> >  > >> > are cheap. People and knowledge is expensive.
> >  > >>
> >  > >> I don't see the problem with simply asking.  Why not ask, let 
> *them* do
> >   > >> the thinking that we're doing
> > on this list, and let *them* give us 
>  a
> >   > >> definitive answer?  If they say,
> > "Thanks, but no thanks," then it's 
>  no
> >   > >> skin off our collective noses.  If
> > they say yes, so much the 
>  better.
> > > >  >
> > > > > Kevin
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Ros-dev mailing list
> > > > > Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
> > > > > http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> > > >
> > > >  _______________________________________________
> > > >  Ros-dev mailing list
> > > >  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
> > > >  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev 
> > >  _______________________________________________
> > >  Ros-dev mailing list
> > >  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
> > >  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> > >  
> >
> >
> >  --
> >  David Johnson
> >   http://www.davefilms.us
> >  Producer
> >  _______________________________________________
> >  Ros-dev mailing list
> >  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
> >  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> >
> >  
>
>  --
>  "I had a handle on life, but then it broke"
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  Ros-dev mailing list
>  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
>  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>  


--
David Johnson
http://www.davefilms.us
Producer

[Rick Parrish]

David Johnson wrote:

>   I know. But ROS foundation should join Power.ORG IBM
> is a member. 
Or even better ... Power.org could become a ReactOS sponsor by 
contributing $$$, code, or talent.

-rick

[David Johnson]

Exactly!!!

On 12/7/05, Rick Parrish <rfmobile(a)swbell.net> wrote:
>   David Johnson wrote:
>
> >   I know. But ROS foundation should join Power.ORG
> > IBM is a member. 
>  Or even better ... Power.org could become a ReactOS sponsor by
>  contributing $$$, code, or talent.
>
>  -rick
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  Ros-dev mailing list
>  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
>  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>  

--
David Johnson
http://www.davefilms.us
Producer

[James Tabor]

David Hinz wrote:
>   I think we might have good chances that IBM will help
> us, especially 
>  with the OS/2 subsystem. And if they still had their PC-branch, I would 
>  guarantee they would help us, just to show MS that nobody depends on 
>  them, but unfortunately they don't have it anymore...
>  Anyway, I think IBM, Intel and maybe companys like Dell should be worth 
>  a try.
>  
>  Greets,
>  
>  David Hinz 
Hi,
I agree, I would like to make their file system first choice for installing
Ros with,,, before ntfs. Ext2fs is okay, I would like to read and write to it.
I believe IBM would love to give a poke to M$ too. If IBM has a windows driver
for their JFS it would be nice to integrate it into Ros.

Thanks,
Jame

[Jonathan Andrews]

On Mon, 2005-12-05 at 20:18 +0000, TwoTailedFox wrote:
>   I can see IBM supporting us, since their last Good OS,
> OS/2, is now
>  efectively dead. I don't see some companies like Sun, or Novell,
>  supporting us, since they already have a vested interest in an
>  Operating System
>  
>  What I'd really like to see are Hardware Manufacturers getting behind
>  us. Realtek, nVIDIA, ATi, Intel, AMD, VIA, etc, could all be
>  approached, and ask for collaboration on writing GPL Drivers (Although
>  nVIDIA is notoriously skeptical about open-source)
>   
Im sorry, snot came out of my nose laughing when I read this...... If
you think ANY Manufacturer is going to back an open source windows clone
when they wont even touch a FreeBSD, let alone a Liux then you are not
living in the real world.

If you want pure GPL then it is best NOT to contact these people and
ask, if by some miracle they sent you any data you would probably find
that you are in breech of NDA if you use it.  

Out of your list only VIA will give out data on request, and thats only
data for devices that don't do multimedia.

Jon

[TwoTailedFox]

If a company hasn't started writing drivers for *nix, BSD and Linux,
they won't start, unless given a major push. We aim to use WDM, so
most, if not all of the foundation is there already. Technically,
companies don't sell drivers anyway, so I don't see it being a
financial issue.

On 12/5/05, Jonathan Andrews <jon(a)jonshouse.co.uk> wrote:
>   On Mon, 2005-12-05 at 20:18 +0000, TwoTailedFox
> wrote:
> >   I can see IBM supporting us, since their last
> > Good OS, OS/2, is now
> >  efectively dead. I don't see some companies like Sun, or Novell,
> >  supporting us, since they already have a vested interest in an
> >  Operating System
> >
> >  What I'd really like to see are Hardware Manufacturers getting behind
> >  us. Realtek, nVIDIA, ATi, Intel, AMD, VIA, etc, could all be
> >  approached, and ask for collaboration on writing GPL Drivers (Although
> >  nVIDIA is notoriously skeptical about open-source)
> >  
>  Im sorry, snot came out of my nose laughing when I read this...... If
>  you think ANY Manufacturer is going to back an open source windows clone
>  when they wont even touch a FreeBSD, let alone a Liux then you are not
>  living in the real world.
>
>  If you want pure GPL then it is best NOT to contact these people and
>  ask, if by some miracle they sent you any data you would probably find
>  that you are in breech of NDA if you use it.
>
>  Out of your list only VIA will give out data on request, and thats only
>  data for devices that don't do multimedia.
>
>  Jon
>
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  Ros-dev mailing list
>  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
>  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>  

--
"I had a handle on life, but then it broke"

[Magnus Olsen]

Not really dlink give out drv under gpl for linux
kiss dvd manyfactory using sigmadesign decoder chip
in some dvd player and they giving out there driver as gpl.  And some other
manyfactor both for windows and linux.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jonathan Andrews" <jon(a)jonshouse.co.uk>
To: "ReactOS Development List" <ros-dev(a)reactos.org>
Sent: den 5 December 2005 21:55
Subject: Re: [ros-dev] My attitude


>   On Mon, 2005-12-05 at 20:18 +0000, TwoTailedFox
> wrote:
> >   I can see IBM supporting us, since their last
> > Good OS, OS/2, is now
> >  efectively dead. I don't see some companies like Sun, or Novell,
> >  supporting us, since they already have a vested interest in an
> >  Operating System
> >
> >  What I'd really like to see are Hardware Manufacturers getting behind
> >  us. Realtek, nVIDIA, ATi, Intel, AMD, VIA, etc, could all be
> >  approached, and ask for collaboration on writing GPL Drivers (Although
> >  nVIDIA is notoriously skeptical about open-source)
> >  
>  Im sorry, snot came out of my nose laughing when I read this...... If
>  you think ANY Manufacturer is going to back an open source windows clone
>  when they wont even touch a FreeBSD, let alone a Liux then you are not
>  living in the real world.
>
>  If you want pure GPL then it is best NOT to contact these people and
>  ask, if by some miracle they sent you any data you would probably find
>  that you are in breech of NDA if you use it.
>
>  Out of your list only VIA will give out data on request, and thats only
>  data for devices that don't do multimedia.
>
>  Jon
>
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  Ros-dev mailing list
>  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
>  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev

[KJKHyperion]

Brian wrote:

>   I have been reading the mailing list for a long time
> now, and i have 
>  to say, i have recently noticed a building up of this childish crap. 
I propose we open a ros-drama(a)reactos.org mailing list to let the 
soap-opera side of the project express itself freely - and to let who 
doesn't like it filter it out

[Royce Mitchell III]

KJKHyperion wrote:

>   I propose we open a ros-drama(a)reactos.org mailing list
> to let the 
>  soap-opera side of the project express itself freely - and to let who 
>  doesn't like it filter it out 
+1

LOL

[Sebastian Gasiorek]

2005/12/9, Royce Mitchell III <royce3(a)ev1.net>et>:
>  
>  KJKHyperion wrote:
>
>  > I propose we open a ros-drama(a)reactos.org mailing list to let the
>  > soap-opera side of the project express itself freely - and to let who
>  > doesn't like it filter it out 

true ;-)


btw.
Alex
....
my grandma is too old and she doesn't even know how to move computer mouse.
;-P

[TwoTailedFox]

+1 Insightful.

On 12/9/05, KJKHyperion <hackbunny(a)reactos.com> wrote:
>   Brian wrote:
>
> >   I have been reading the mailing list for a long
> > time now, and i have
> >  to say, i have recently noticed a building up of this childish crap. 
>  I propose we open a ros-drama(a)reactos.org mailing list to let the
>  soap-opera side of the project express itself freely - and to let who
>  doesn't like it filter it out
>  _______________________________________________
>  Ros-dev mailing list
>  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
>  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>  

--
"I had a handle on life, but then it broke"

[Maritn "E.T." Misuth]

KJKHyperion wrote:
>   Brian wrote:
>  
> >   I have been reading the mailing list for a long
> > time now, and i have
> >  to say, i have recently noticed a building up of this childish crap. 
>  
>  
>  I propose we open a ros-drama(a)reactos.org mailing list to let the
>  soap-opera side of the project express itself freely - and to let who
>  doesn't like it filter it out
>  _______________________________________________
>  Ros-dev mailing list
>  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
>  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>  
>   
I like that idea, that will be my preffered mailing list. :)

E.T.

[Brian]

Well, I was meaning to lead to reform, but that wasn't what i was thinking
at the moment. LOL

[Ged Murphy]

Witukind wrote:
>   I think the project would stagnate without Alex.
>     
That just isn't true, and I'm sure Alex wouldn't want anyone to think 
that either.
There are some other developers on this project (not naming any names) 
who are just as good if not better programmers than Alex, they just 
choose not to voice their skills openly like Alex does.
Just wanted to point that out for anyone thinking Alex is the be all and 
end all of this project. As I said, I'm sure Alex doesn't want anyone 
thinking that either.

WaxDragon wrote:
>       Alex is young and intelligent, which naturally
> leads to arrogance,
>  but I have long since gotten numb to his behaviour, since there are
>  plenty of people like him in my life.  To his credit, Alex is one of
>  the few reasons I am still involved with this project, and sometimes,
>  I *do* feel like I am working for him. ;0)  Without Alex I am sure
>  this project would be different, but I'm not sure if it would be
>  better or worse.
>
>      As I have said before, it's these very arguments on public project
>  mailing lists that hurt this project more than anything.  It's
>  arguments like these that make me want to leave, not any one's
>  attitude.  They take up resources and contribute nothing.  Just keep
>  in mind that these emails will be found by people looking for answers
>  to questions for a long time to come.
>
>      I've seen this problem again and again.  The contributors to the
>  project are some of the brightest people I have ever met (in this
>  field), and when you get a group of intelligent people together,
>  invariably egos get in the mix and you have this childish bickering
>  about STUPID SHIT.  I've seen this happen to PHDs that were twice my
>  age, and should have known better.
>
>      If you have a problem with someones attitude, I expect you to take
>  it up with them directly and privately.  If that doesn't work, step
>  away for a day or two, and reflect upon what this project means to
>  you.
>
>  WD 
I agree with everything you said. I was both shocked and annoyed to see 
this mail this morning when I woke up.
This isn't something I would or would ever want to vote on. Having said 
that, it would be a very sad day if Alex ever did decide to leave.
Hopefully it will never come to that, and everyone's differences can be 
sorted out, preferably not on a public mailing list.

Ged.

[Alex Ionescu]

Ged Murphy wrote:

>   Witukind wrote:
>
> >   I think the project would stagnate without Alex.
> >     
>
>  That just isn't true, and I'm sure Alex wouldn't want anyone to think 
>  that either.
>  There are some other developers on this project (not naming any names) 
>  who are just as good if not better programmers than Alex, they just 
>  choose not to voice their skills openly like Alex does.
>  Just wanted to point that out for anyone thinking Alex is the be all 
>  and end all of this project. As I said, I'm sure Alex doesn't want 
>  anyone thinking that either. 
THANK YOU!

Best regards,
Alex Ionescu

[James Tabor]

Hi All!



Group *HUG!*



Therapy is over so go back to coden!

8^D
James

[Steven Edwards]

On 12/3/05, Alex Ionescu <ionucu(a)videotron.ca> wrote:
>   It was Steven's idea that I should post this emai
> and I agreedl, so
>  please don't take it as my personal childish attempt to get attention,
>  unless you find that both I and Steven (our Project Coordinator) are
>  children. 
No my idea was that you should ask and I said here would be fine, if
the developers are turned off contributing to the project by your
attitude. I suggested mailing the list if you thought I was wrong.

>   "My arrogant attitude hurts this project more
> then any amount of code or
>  patches I commit will ever help it." 
Which I later clarified to mean that long term if your attitude
discourages people from contributing code. I do not wish to get in to
childish debate or waste any ones time. This is my point of view, that
yes long term it will hurt the project more. I can site examples but I
am not wanting to beat a dead horse at this point.

>   [ ] Alex's arrogant attitude hurts this project
> more then his code helps
>  it. Alex should therefore leave, so that the project can stop being hurt. 
>   [ ] Alex's arrogant attitude is annoying at times
> but his presence in
>  this project significantly helps it grow and move towards reaching its
>  goals, and does not hurt the project. 
This is my point of view. No one else's. I think long term your
attitude is a detriment to the project, your methods are sloppy and
you don't care how much it bothers other people. I mean you care about
the project and think your development methods are helping but your
attitude towards anyone that has tried to tell you otherwise has never
shown it. Now if you want to ask the question correctly.

Are you turned off contributing to the project by Alex's attitude

[] Yes
[] No


--
Steven Edwards - ReactOS and Wine developer

"There is one thing stronger than all the armies in the world, and
that is an idea whose time has come." - Victor Hugo

[Alex Ionescu]

Steven Edwards wrote:

>  No my idea was that you should ask 
>  
I wrote "It was Steven's idea that I should post this email" in my
email.

>   I suggested mailing the list if you thought I was
> wrong.
>   
>  
I wrote "and I agreed" in my email.

>    
>
> >  "My arrogant attitude hurts this project more
> > then any amount of code or
> > patches I commit will ever help it."
> >     
> >  
> Which I later clarified to mean that long term if your attitude
> discourages people from contributing code. I do not wish to get in to
> childish debate or waste any ones time. This is my point of view, that
> yes long term it will hurt the project more. I can site examples but I
> am not wanting to beat a dead horse at this point.
>   
>  
And like we both said on IRC, it's important to know if this is 
everyone's point of view.

>    
>
> >  [ ] Alex's arrogant attitude hurts this
> > project more then his code helps
> > it. Alex should therefore leave, so that the project can stop being hurt.
> >     
> >  
>   
>
> >  [ ] Alex's arrogant attitude is annoying at
> > times but his presence in
> > this project significantly helps it grow and move towards reaching its
> > goals, and does not hurt the project.
> >     
> >  
> This is my point of view. No one else's. 
>  
The point is to find out if that's true.

>  I think long term your
> attitude is a detriment to the project, your methods are sloppy and
> you don't care how much it bothers other people. 
>  
Nobody has ever questionned my "sloppy methods" except for you, at least

not to me. Oh, Casper has complained about my huge patches, and I think 
he'll agree that even though I bitched about it a lot, I have had 
several chat sessions with him where I was explaining him the hurdles of 
splitting patches and how I was attempting to do so.

>  I mean you care about
> the project and think your development methods are helping but your
> attitude towards anyone that has tried to tell you otherwise has never
> shown it.
>  
Why have they never shown it?

>   Now if you want to ask the question correctly.
>
> Are you turned off contributing to the project by Alex's attitude
>
> [] Yes
> [] No
>
>   
>  
But that's not really the question. I don't disagree that I might've 
turned off some people to contribute, but it's their problem for not 
having communicated with me about it... I can't fix what I'm not told 
about. How many people do you think are put off by Linus Torvalds? How 
many people do you think are put off just by the fact we don't use msvc? 
How many people do you think are put off by the fact we are GPL? Why 
single me out? It doesn't make sense, and I will sleep at night knowing 
that "I have put people off" because I'm sure other devs here have done 
the same, and I know that Linus's attitude puts off hundreds of 
developers. But let's go back to what you said:

[22:23] <@sedwards> Alex_Ionescu, your ego is going to do more damage to 
the project than any amount of code you commit
[22:24] <@sedwards> the truth hurts
[22:24] <@sedwards> I am not trying to be rude but I do mean it

It's one thing to "put people off", it's another to "do more damage
then 
help".

The question isn't wether I've put people off. Please, anyone that I've 
put off, EMAIL ME. Tell me about it! I want you to work on this project 
and I will do anything it takes for us to get along.

The question remains:

<<
Do you agree with this statement:

"<@sedwards> Alex_Ionescu, your ego is going to do more damage to the 
project than any amount of code you commit"

[ ] Yes
[ ] No
>  > 
Best regards,
Alex Ionescu

[Steven Edwards]

On 12/4/05, Alex Ionescu <ionucu(a)videotron.ca> wrote:
>   Do you agree with this statement: 
Why don't you save everyone the trouble, if you are going to quote me
at least quote me in context so if I am wrong I can be wrong based on
the truth and not the point of view presented by snips of IRC
discussion. Here is the whole log up until the point of the email
discussion:

http://steven-edwards.kicks-ass.org/~sedwards/alex.txt

--
Steven Edwards - ReactOS and Wine developer

"There is one thing stronger than all the armies in the world, and
that is an idea whose time has come." - Victor Hugo

[KJKHyperion]

Steven Edwards wrote:

>  Are you turned off contributing to the project by
> Alex's attitude
>
> [] Yes
> [] No
>   
>  
Is the abuse of voting lame and boring?

[] Yes

[Oliver Schneider]

Since I read the list for quite a while, I think it could be interesting for
all of you to learn the view of someone not being a contributing member of
the project.

Alex, the first impression entering the list is, that *you* are the only one
project leader here. At least it was my first impression.
And by the way, have you ever considered to change your attitude towards
others? This seems not to be an option to you as I cannot find it in your
list of choices. *This* is arrogant indeed, because it implies that your
attitude may not be correct all the time (2nd choice), but well, you just
don't care and won't change it anyways.

Now you have the outsider's *opinion* and I am not going to judge any other
point in the discussion now. Maybe later if requested to do so.

You should really consider changing your attitude instead of putting it as
an absolute fact, not allowing others to mention that they don't like it. Or
just think about it as a first step. It could be a good choice to have a
break from the project for one month or so because it will also change your
view on things ...

Best regards,

Oliver

-- 
---------------------------------------------------
May the source be with you, stranger ;)

ICQ: #281645
URL: http://assarbad.net

[Magnus Olsen]

I like Alex and he is helping alot in diffent area, and without him it
should
take year maby to solv some real havey problem and implement new stuff
for now one have time todo so, or some time missing the small knowlgews
how todo it. But it is not always I and Alex agreed some part. and I t
hankfull that people can question if it right or wrong. But often it leads
to
smaller fight stead trying figout what it should or new bugs.
everyone can do souch mistake.

I want Aleax stay in ReactOS as devloper he doing really good works and we
manger getting new programmers everysummer and they stay in ReactOS.
few programmers have leave ReactOS for the got private issue. Like famliy,
no
time the work get over handed.

Tamlin = have no time codoing on ReactOS for now, but he hope getting time
soon
Vizzi  = Did leave for private issue
EA    = No time to coding on ReactOS and do not know when he is back or not
Jasson = No time for coding or project cordinator for now.

And me often only have 1-2 days everyweek coding on ReactOS now.
It is at every weekend and I need also wacthing over my stepmopther
kids, and the often runing to me every 10-20mins at weekend for the
want something. Like how to start the computer game, how to change vhs
or dvd in living room for they for not doing that self.

for my small company gott to much work doing for costumers. And I
love see I got more time for ReactOS.

it is not alex fault people do not have time or quit ReactOS.




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Alex Ionescu" <ionucu(a)videotron.ca>
To: "ReactOS Development List" <ros-dev(a)reactos.com>
Sent: den 4 December 2005 04:44
Subject: [ros-dev] My attitude


>   Hi,
>
>  It was Steven's idea that I should post this emai and I agreedl, so
>  please don't take it as my personal childish attempt to get attention,
>  unless you find that both I and Steven (our Project Coordinator) are
>  children.
>
>  Steven has recently expressed his opinion that: (modified quote so that
>  "your" -> "my")
>
>  "My arrogant attitude hurts this project more then any amount of code or
>  patches I commit will ever help it."
>
>  Therefore, since:
>
>  1) I really care about this project
>  2) I don't wish to spend time writing useless code (since no amount of
>  code will help the project more then I hurt it, then the code is
>  useless, like heating a room where the windows are open in winter).
>
>  I think it's important to know if this is a public opinion or not, so I
>  am opening a public ML vote. If it is, then I will gladly leave and stop
>  hurting this project, since those were not my intentions when I joined.
>  If this is the case, then I only regret for having stayed here so long
>  and done nothing but hurt the project for almost two years now, and I'm
>  sorry.
>
>  [ ] Alex's arrogant attitude hurts this project more then his code helps
>  it. Alex should therefore leave, so that the project can stop being hurt.
>  [ ] Alex's arrogant attitude is annoying at times but his presence in
>  this project significantly helps it grow and move towards reaching its
>  goals, and does not hurt the project.
>
>  Best regards,
>  Alex Ionescu
>  _______________________________________________
>  Ros-dev mailing list
>  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
>  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev

[Steven Edwards]

Hi,

On 12/4/05, Magnus Olsen <magnus(a)itkonsult-olsen.com> wrote:
>   it is not alex fault people do not have time or quit
> ReactOS. 
Please don't misunderstand. I never said it was, I just have had some
people say that they did not like some things and I asked Alex to
chill out on them.  Our discussion just got a little too heated and I
admit my words were not polite by any means. I am sorry for that and
do not wish to lay any blame on anyone for anything. I don't want him
to leave the project and I am not blaming him for driving anyone away.
I don't believe he has, I just think based on some comments I have
gathered that some people were reluctant to work with him because of
attitude and my statement to him was supposed to be, if some
developers left is it worth it long term. I just wanted him to ask if
anyone that was bothered provide feedback.

--
Steven Edwards - ReactOS and Wine developer

"There is one thing stronger than all the armies in the world, and
that is an idea whose time has come." - Victor Hugo

[Casper Hornstrup]

Well, +1 on the arrogance, but I won't vote on such a thing. IMHO we have to deal with
such issues another way. There are a few
things that have bothered me for a while which I list here.

[15:48] <CIA-8> sgasiorek * r19366 reactos/lib/aclui/ (aclui.rc aclui_Pl.rc): added
Polish resource
[15:49] <tamlin> Brezenbak: I disagree. That's an explicit read.
[15:49] <GedMurphy> sgasiorek ??
[15:49] <Fireball> silverblade?
[15:49] * Exception wait for Alex to say who is that? ;-)
[15:49] <Fireball> seems no
[15:49] <Alex_Ionescu> Exception: its an inside joke
[15:49] <Alex_Ionescu> who the heck is sgasiorek
[15:49] <Exception> lol
[15:50] <silverblade> yes?
[15:50] * Naru-Ayato has joined #reactos
[15:50] <Alex_Ionescu> oh right i forgot, now everyone and his grandma gets an svn
account

For several weeks there have been complaints every time I have granted a new developer
commit access. This has not only been from
Alex, but also 2-3 other committers or so IIRC. What is the problem here? Giving other
developers commit access, will not "degrade"
your own status as a committer. If you have a problem with someone getting commit access,
then bring it up on the mailing list, but
be prepared to come up with better arguments than "I don't know him".
It's innocent until proven guilty with regard to getting
commit access.

Alex gone on kicking spree on IRC. Maybe we need to vote on an official IRC policy. I
don't think such behaviour is particularly
nice.

[04:33] * Tortel is now known as Tort-afk
[04:33] <Alex_Ionescu> chris38-home: are you a bot
[04:34] <Alex_Ionescu> i think you are..
[04:34] <Alex_Ionescu> oh, he's not
[04:34] <Alex_Ionescu> he has talked. once.
[04:35] <arty> i've seen him talk
[04:35] <Alex_Ionescu> ok..next..
[04:36] * Tort-afk is now known as Tortel
[04:36] <Alex_Ionescu> illissius: talk
[04:36] <Alex_Ionescu> illissius: are you a bot?
[04:36] <Bizzeh> Alex_Ionescu: where can i find this class designer
[04:36] <Alex_Ionescu> i think you are!
[04:37] <Alex_Ionescu> i don't like bots :D:D
[04:37] <Alex_Ionescu> or lurkers
[04:37] <silverblade> Alex_Ionescu: is this a new game? lol
[04:37] * Talley wonders of his place on Alex's "REPLY OR I WILL BE FORCED TO
KICK YOU OUT" list
[04:37] <Alex_Ionescu> in fact, i have never seen you talk..
[04:37] <Alex_Ionescu> and that goes against our valuable channel rules..
[04:37] <Alex_Ionescu> you have 25 seconds to respond :D
[04:37] <Alex_Ionescu> MAY THIS BE A SIGN TO ALL LURKERS
[04:37] <Alex_Ionescu> ALEX IS WATCHING
[04:37] <silverblade>  [illissius] #ruby-lang #kde +#techreport #haiku #reactos
#plasma #openusability #kde4-devel #webkit #khtml
#ksvg #koffice #amarok #kde-devel 
[04:37] <Alex_Ionescu> ALEX KNOWS ABOUT YOU
[04:37] <Alex_Ionescu> ALEX WILL GET YOU
[04:38] <Alex_Ionescu> 15 seconds :D
[04:38] <silverblade> that seems an awful lot of channels to be logged into
[04:38] * Talley hides behind cia-8 
[04:38] <Alex_Ionescu> 10
[04:38] <Alex_Ionescu> 8
[04:38] <Alex_Ionescu> 7
[04:38] <Alex_Ionescu> 5
[04:38] <Alex_Ionescu> 3
[04:38] <silverblade> Alex_Ionescu: what happened to 9 and 6?
[04:38] <silverblade> were you saving them for a 69
[04:38] * illissius was kicked by Alex_Ionescu (lurking)
[04:38] <Alex_Ionescu> yeah, logged in so many channels
[04:38] <Alex_Ionescu> yeah, logged in so many channels
[04:38] <Alex_Ionescu> can only mean one thing
[04:39] <mf> pfft
[04:39] * silverblade applauds how far illissius was booted
[04:39] <Alex_Ionescu> bot or logger
[04:39] <mf> what's wrong with lurking
[04:39] <Talley> :)
[04:39] <Alex_Ionescu> mf: it's against our policies
[04:39] <Bizzeh> argh
[04:39] <jimtabor> $1 for a logger bot
[04:39] <silverblade> who HONESTLY scrolls back through logs
[04:39] <silverblade> after lurking
[04:39] <Talley> in that case I should have been kicked long ago :/
[04:39] <mf> i idle on #linux on ircnet
[04:39] <silverblade> esp. on that many channels
[04:39] <mf> 18:23 < qrto> psycheye: you broke it !!!
[04:39] <mf> 18:23 < psycheye> why?
[04:39] <mf> 18:23 < qrto> 261 days of idling !
[04:39] <mf> 18:23 <@ichiban> ye
[04:39] <mf> 18:23 <@ichiban> it'll be tough to break that one now
[04:39] <mf> 18:24 < qrto> :)
[04:39] <mf> 18:24 < qrto> i could try !
[04:39] <mf> 18:24 < Nadriel> Even harder if you talk..
[04:39] <mf> 18:24 < qrto> naaaaaaaaah
[04:39] <mf> 18:24 <@ichiban> mf is second with only 157d
[04:39] <mf> i still haven't said anything since that
[04:39] <mf> :D
[04:40] <mf> but i don't log, and i'm not a bot either
[04:40] <Bizzeh> all i wanna do is change #pragma once to #ifndef
__${PROJECTNAME}_${CLASSNAME}_H_ #define
__${PROJECTNAME}_${CLASSNAME}_H_ class def here #endif
//!__${PROJECTNAME}_${CLASSNAME}_H_
[04:40] <silverblade> maybe it'll teach the bot/loggers to turn their pcs OFF
and save the environment :p
[04:40] <Alex_Ionescu> well, now i feel stupid
[04:40] <Alex_Ionescu> lol
[04:40] <Alex_Ionescu> http://cia.navi.cx/stats/author/illissius
[04:40] <Alex_Ionescu> he's a KDE dev
[04:41] <mf> lol
[04:41] <mf> and an idler
[04:41] <mf> :)
[04:41] <Talley> pwned :)

[Andrew "Silver Blade" Greenwood]

Personally, I don't mind Alex.

My only issue is I do often feel like I'm *working for him*, rather than 
contributing to an open-source project. For example, I discussed sound 
coding and then left it for a little while, and he got on my back about it.

And occasionally if I ask a question, I'll get a kind of "are you 
stupid?" response (something similar anyway) which can be a little 
degrading.

He did confuse me in the chat which Exception posted, as at the time I 
asked about SVN access. I'm pretty sure originally he said SVN write 
access was restricted to the few people who commit the most, so I 
assumed I didn't fit in to that bracket and didn't bother asking for 
write access.

Despite all this, Alex is very helpful. Certainly no reason why he 
should leave the project completely as he does a lot of work, but 
open-source development I always believed to be a "do what you want to 
do, when you want to to it" concept (obviously not including things like 
deliberately breaking the build or whatever!) And it's a learning curve.

It doesn't bother me too much though and I wouldn't leave the project 
over it myself. I'm used to people saying "get on with it" and "do it 
this way because this way is right" so I guess that's probably my way of 
learning.


Casper Hornstrup wrote:

>  [15:48] <CIA-8> sgasiorek * r19366
> reactos/lib/aclui/ (aclui.rc aclui_Pl.rc): added Polish resource
> [15:49] <tamlin> Brezenbak: I disagree. That's an explicit read.
> [15:49] <GedMurphy> sgasiorek ??
> [15:49] <Fireball> silverblade?
> [15:49] * Exception wait for Alex to say who is that? ;-)
> [15:49] <Fireball> seems no
> [15:49] <Alex_Ionescu> Exception: its an inside joke
> [15:49] <Alex_Ionescu> who the heck is sgasiorek
> [15:49] <Exception> lol
> [15:50] <silverblade> yes?
> [15:50] * Naru-Ayato has joined #reactos
> [15:50] <Alex_Ionescu> oh right i forgot, now everyone and his grandma gets an svn
> account
>
> For several weeks there have been complaints every time I have granted a new developer
> commit access. This has not only been from
> Alex, but also 2-3 other committers or so IIRC. What is the problem here? Giving other
> developers commit access, will not "degrade"
> your own status as a committer. If you have a problem with someone getting commit access,
> then bring it up on the mailing list, but
> be prepared to come up with better arguments than "I don't know him".
> It's innocent until proven guilty with regard to getting
> commit access.
>
>   
>

[WaxDragon]

    Alex is young and intelligent, which naturally leads to arrogance,
but I have long since gotten numb to his behaviour, since there are
plenty of people like him in my life.  To his credit, Alex is one of
the few reasons I am still involved with this project, and sometimes,
I *do* feel like I am working for him. ;0)  Without Alex I am sure
this project would be different, but I'm not sure if it would be
better or worse.

    As I have said before, it's these very arguments on public project
mailing lists that hurt this project more than anything.  It's
arguments like these that make me want to leave, not any one's
attitude.  They take up resources and contribute nothing.  Just keep
in mind that these emails will be found by people looking for answers
to questions for a long time to come.

    I've seen this problem again and again.  The contributors to the
project are some of the brightest people I have ever met (in this
field), and when you get a group of intelligent people together,
invariably egos get in the mix and you have this childish bickering
about STUPID SHIT.  I've seen this happen to PHDs that were twice my
age, and should have known better.

    If you have a problem with someones attitude, I expect you to take
it up with them directly and privately.  If that doesn't work, step
away for a day or two, and reflect upon what this project means to
you.

WD

[David Johnson]

Alex Helps.
Alex code is good.
Keep Alex.

I work with Neuro Surgeons and they are all jerks. (I am not saying
Alex is a jerk.) But attitude is good.

On 12/4/05, WaxDragon <waxdragon(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>       Alex is young and intelligent, which naturally
> leads to arrogance,
>  but I have long since gotten numb to his behaviour, since there are
>  plenty of people like him in my life.  To his credit, Alex is one of
>  the few reasons I am still involved with this project, and sometimes,
>  I *do* feel like I am working for him. ;0)  Without Alex I am sure
>  this project would be different, but I'm not sure if it would be
>  better or worse.
>
>      As I have said before, it's these very arguments on public project
>  mailing lists that hurt this project more than anything.  It's
>  arguments like these that make me want to leave, not any one's
>  attitude.  They take up resources and contribute nothing.  Just keep
>  in mind that these emails will be found by people looking for answers
>  to questions for a long time to come.
>
>      I've seen this problem again and again.  The contributors to the
>  project are some of the brightest people I have ever met (in this
>  field), and when you get a group of intelligent people together,
>  invariably egos get in the mix and you have this childish bickering
>  about STUPID SHIT.  I've seen this happen to PHDs that were twice my
>  age, and should have known better.
>
>      If you have a problem with someones attitude, I expect you to take
>  it up with them directly and privately.  If that doesn't work, step
>  away for a day or two, and reflect upon what this project means to
>  you.
>
>  WD
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  Ros-dev mailing list
>  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
>  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>  

--
David Johnson
http://www.davefilms.us
Producer

[Alex Ionescu]

Andrew "Silver Blade" Greenwood wrote:

>  
>
>  And occasionally if I ask a question, I'll get a kind of "are you 
>  stupid?" response (something similar anyway) which can be a little 
>  degrading. 
I'm sorry if you found it as such. I always thought you took them as a 
joke, which they were. I often say 'are you stupid' to my closest 
friends when they ask things like "are we monday today?" when it's a 
Tuesday. I don't mean it and they know it. Perhaps I need to watch my 
mouth on IRC.

>  
>  He did confuse me in the chat which Exception posted, as at the time I 
>  asked about SVN access. I'm pretty sure originally he said SVN write 
>  access was restricted to the few people who commit the most, so I 
>  assumed I didn't fit in to that bracket and didn't bother asking for 
>  write access.
>  
I must've told you like five times on PM to ask for commit access...

[Alex Ionescu]

Casper Hornstrup wrote:

>  Well, +1 on the arrogance, but I won't vote on such
> a thing. IMHO we have to deal with such issues another way. There are a few
> things that have bothered me for a while which I list here.
>
>
> For several weeks there have been complaints every time I have granted a new developer
> commit access. This has not only been from
> Alex, but also 2-3 other committers or so IIRC. What is the problem here? 
>  
I've explained this to you on IRC, it doesn't respect the rules we setup 
about this. Just like the time with Andrew becoming TC didn't respect 
the rules.

>  Giving other developers commit access, will not
> "degrade"
> your own status as a committer. 
>  
I never said that, nor did the other people which complained.

>  If you have a problem with someone getting commit
> access, then bring it up on the mailing list, but
> be prepared to come up with better arguments than "I don't know him".
> It's innocent until proven guilty with regard to getting
> commit access.
>
> Alex gone on kicking spree on IRC. Maybe we need to vote on an official IRC policy. I
> don't think such behaviour is particularly
> nice.
>   
>  
I was merely having fun executing our IRC policy, which says "no 
idling". The people that were kicked had not talked in months, and could 
potentially have been logger robots. If you had a problem with it, why 
didn't you step in?

Thanks for your comments. Best regards,
Alex Ionescu

[Casper Hornstrup]

>   -----Original Message-----
>  From: ros-dev-bounces(a)reactos.org [mailto:[e-mail]] On Behalf Of Alex
> Ionescu
>  Sent: 4. december 2005 17:57
>  To: ReactOS Development List
>  Subject: Re: [ros-dev] My attitude
>  
>  I was merely having fun executing our IRC policy, which says "no
>  idling". The people that were kicked had not talked in months, and could
>  potentially have been logger robots. If you had a problem with it, why
>  didn't you step in?
>  
>  Thanks for your comments. Best regards,
>  Alex Ionescu 
I'm usually not awake at 4:30am.

What is the reason for this rule? There are 100 people in that channel so
communication would break down if they all talked. I think this rule should
be removed.

Casper

[Alex Ionescu]

Casper Hornstrup wrote:

>    
>
> >  -----Original Message-----
> > From: ros-dev-bounces(a)reactos.org [mailto:[e-mail]] On Behalf Of Alex
> > Ionescu
> > Sent: 4. december 2005 17:57
> > To: ReactOS Development List
> > Subject: Re: [ros-dev] My attitude
> >
> > I was merely having fun executing our IRC policy, which says "no
> > idling". The people that were kicked had not talked in months, and could
> > potentially have been logger robots. If you had a problem with it, why
> > didn't you step in?
> >
> > Thanks for your comments. Best regards,
> > Alex Ionescu
> >     
> >  
> I'm usually not awake at 4:30am.
>
> What is the reason for this rule? There are 100 people in that channel so
> communication would break down if they all talked. I think this rule should
> be removed.
>
> Casper
>
>   
>  
Just remove it from the Wiki, I have no objections. It's always been an 
open policy...

Best regards,
Alex Ionescu

[Ge van Geldorp]

Are you sure a public mailing list is the right place for this? Don't hide
behind Steven on this, he didn't put a gun to your head to force you to make
the post, you decided for yourself. Since the cat seems to be out of the bag
anyway:

Another +1 on the arrogance. I got so tired of it I decided to drop out of
the IRC channel. It won't make me leave the project though, the world
doesn't revolve around Alex.

What worries me far more is your tendency to immediately turn to IDA to find
out how something is implemented in Windows. A recent example, when the
question came up how to prevent umpnpmgr from popping up dialogs during
second stage setup, you told us that IDA revealed that Windows uses such and
such registry key for that. Why would we need to implement this identical to
Windows? Why not create a independent implementation (which could happen to
be the same, only arrived at independently)?
When asked about stuff like this, your reply is that reverse engineering is
legal. I don't dispute it is, when done properly. I'm just not sure that the
way you're doing it, reverse engineering Windows and then writing ReactOS
code, is proper. I have no solid evidence either way on whether it's legal
or not legal and I'd rather err on the side of caution. In short, I do think
your contributions potentially present a major threat to the project.

GvG

[Alex Ionescu]

Ge van Geldorp wrote:

>  Are you sure a public mailing list is the right place
> for this? Don't hide
> behind Steven on this, he didn't put a gun to your head to force you to make
> the post, you decided for yourself.
>  
You have GOT to stop putting words in my mouth, it's gotten really annoying.

>   A recent example, when the
> question came up how to prevent umpnpmgr from popping up dialogs during
> second stage setup, you told us that IDA revealed that Windows uses such and
> such registry key for that. 
>  
I actually used "Strings" to dump out the registry keys. That's not 
reverse engineering.

>  Why would we need to implement this identical to
> Windows? Why not create a independent implementation (which could happen to
> be the same, only arrived at independently)?
>   
>  
Uhh..let's see...because that key is
1) Public
2) Documented
3) Recommended for use by 3rd party software.

>  When asked about stuff like this, your reply is that
> reverse engineering is
> legal. 
>  
No, my reply is that 1) this wasn't reverse engineering. 2) This key HAD 
to be copied. Doing it "independently" would break any app using it. 3) 
This key is public info.

>  I don't dispute it is, when done properly. I'm
> just not sure that the
> way you're doing it, reverse engineering Windows and then writing ReactOS
> code, is proper. 
>  
I don't do that, that is against the ReactOS IP Policy. Please explain 
how you go to from "he found a registry string" to "he reverses code 
then writes ReactOS code"

>  I have no solid evidence either way on whether it's
> legal
> or not legal and I'd rather err on the side of caution. In short, I do think
> your contributions potentially present a major threat to the project.
>   
>  
Thanks for your comments.
However, I find the fact that you've been ignoring me whenever I try to 
talk to you on IRC, and then decide to leave, and that you now make 
public accusations ("reverse engineering Windows and then writing 
ReactOS code" happens to be good enough reason to kick someone out) is 
pretty arrogant too. Just my 2 cents.

>  GvG
>
>   
>  
Best regards,
Alex Ionescu

[Nathan Woods]

[ ] Alex's arrogant attitude hurts this project more then his code helps 
it. Alex should therefore leave, so that the project can stop being hurt.
[ ] Alex's arrogant attitude is annoying at times but his presence in 
this project significantly helps it grow and move towards reaching its 
goals, and does not hurt the project.
[*] Alex's arrogant attitude is annoying at times but his presence in 
this project significantly helps it grow and move towards reaching its 
goals, and does not hurt the project; and it is a trait that he has in 
common with the leaders of some of the most successful open source 
projects out there

[Sylvain Petreolle]

people dont know what having fun is today :))
(even its about idling in a channel)

Witukind wrote:
>   I think the project would stagnate without Alex.
+1
+1
"it's easy if you try
...
 but [you are] not the only one" (singing)

--- Alex Ionescu <ionucu(a)videotron.ca> a écrit :

>   Hi,
>  
>  It was Steven's idea that I should post this emai and I agreedl, so 
>  please don't take it as my personal childish attempt to get attention, 
>  unless you find that both I and Steven (our Project Coordinator) are 
>  children.
>  
>  Steven has recently expressed his opinion that: (modified quote so that 
>  "your" -> "my")
>  
>  "My arrogant attitude hurts this project more then any amount of code or 
>  patches I commit will ever help it."
>  
>  Therefore, since:
>  
>  1) I really care about this project
>  2) I don't wish to spend time writing useless code (since no amount of 
>  code will help the project more then I hurt it, then the code is 
>  useless, like heating a room where the windows are open in winter).
>  
>  I think it's important to know if this is a public opinion or not, so I 
>  am opening a public ML vote. If it is, then I will gladly leave and stop 
>  hurting this project, since those were not my intentions when I joined. 
>  If this is the case, then I only regret for having stayed here so long 
>  and done nothing but hurt the project for almost two years now, and I'm 
>  sorry.
>  
>  [ ] Alex's arrogant attitude hurts this project more then his code helps 
>  it. Alex should therefore leave, so that the project can stop being hurt.
>  [ ] Alex's arrogant attitude is annoying at times but his presence in 
>  this project significantly helps it grow and move towards reaching its 
>  goals, and does not hurt the project.
>  
>  Best regards,
>  Alex Ionescu
>  _______________________________________________
>  Ros-dev mailing list
>  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
>  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>   

Kind regards,
Sylvain Petreolle (aka Usurp)
--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---
Tired of a proprietary Windows on your computer ?
Use free ReactOS instead ( http://www.reactos.org )

[Brandon Turner]

His attitude doesn't really bother me that much.  Sometimes I feel like 
silverblade in the fact that he makes me feel dumb.  But there is a 
reason for that. ;)

I wouldn't like to see Alex leave, he helps me a lot...

Brandon

Alex Ionescu wrote:

>   Hi,
>
>  It was Steven's idea that I should post this emai and I agreedl, so 
>  please don't take it as my personal childish attempt to get attention, 
>  unless you find that both I and Steven (our Project Coordinator) are 
>  children.
>
>  Steven has recently expressed his opinion that: (modified quote so 
>  that "your" -> "my")
>
>  "My arrogant attitude hurts this project more then any amount of code 
>  or patches I commit will ever help it."
>
>  Therefore, since:
>
>  1) I really care about this project
>  2) I don't wish to spend time writing useless code (since no amount of 
>  code will help the project more then I hurt it, then the code is 
>  useless, like heating a room where the windows are open in winter).
>
>  I think it's important to know if this is a public opinion or not, so 
>  I am opening a public ML vote. If it is, then I will gladly leave and 
>  stop hurting this project, since those were not my intentions when I 
>  joined. If this is the case, then I only regret for having stayed here 
>  so long and done nothing but hurt the project for almost two years 
>  now, and I'm sorry.
>
>  [ ] Alex's arrogant attitude hurts this project more then his code 
>  helps it. Alex should therefore leave, so that the project can stop 
>  being hurt.
>  [ ] Alex's arrogant attitude is annoying at times but his presence in 
>  this project significantly helps it grow and move towards reaching its 
>  goals, and does not hurt the project.
>
>  Best regards,
>  Alex Ionescu
>  _______________________________________________
>  Ros-dev mailing list
>  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
>  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>
>

[Rick Langschultz]

I have experienced some attitude from a variety of people on the  
mailing-list, and irc. I believe each persons way of doing things are  
different. Logging all communications both on IRC and Mailing-lists  
would allow users, developers, and internet browsers. Logging irc  
would allow people to see what is happening on IRC. I had a great  
deal of flaming and difficulty on IRC. With logging people can see  
what is going on and if there is any arrogance people would be able  
to see it. Also if something is important integration with the wiki  
would be great.
On Dec 3, 2005, at 9:44 PM, Alex Ionescu wrote:

>   Hi,
>
>  It was Steven's idea that I should post this emai and I agreedl, so  
>  please don't take it as my personal childish attempt to get  
>  attention, unless you find that both I and Steven (our Project  
>  Coordinator) are children.
>
>  Steven has recently expressed his opinion that: (modified quote so  
>  that "your" -> "my")
>
>  "My arrogant attitude hurts this project more then any amount of  
>  code or patches I commit will ever help it."
>
>  Therefore, since:
>
>  1) I really care about this project
>  2) I don't wish to spend time writing useless code (since no amount  
>  of code will help the project more then I hurt it, then the code is  
>  useless, like heating a room where the windows are open in winter).
>
>  I think it's important to know if this is a public opinion or not,  
>  so I am opening a public ML vote. If it is, then I will gladly  
>  leave and stop hurting this project, since those were not my  
>  intentions when I joined. If this is the case, then I only regret  
>  for having stayed here so long and done nothing but hurt the  
>  project for almost two years now, and I'm sorry.
>
>  [ ] Alex's arrogant attitude hurts this project more then his code  
>  helps it. Alex should therefore leave, so that the project can stop  
>  being hurt.
>  [ ] Alex's arrogant attitude is annoying at times but his presence  
>  in this project significantly helps it grow and move towards  
>  reaching its goals, and does not hurt the project.
>
>  Best regards,
>  Alex Ionescu
>  _______________________________________________
>  Ros-dev mailing list
>  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
>  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev

[Hartmut Birr]

Rick Langschultz wrote:
>   I have experienced some attitude from a variety of
> people on the
>  mailing-list, and irc. I believe each persons way of doing things are
>  different. Logging all communications both on IRC and Mailing-lists
>  would allow users, developers, and internet browsers. Logging irc
>  would allow people to see what is happening on IRC. I had a great deal
>  of flaming and difficulty on IRC. With logging people can see what is
>  going on and if there is any arrogance people would be able to see it.
>  Also if something is important integration with the wiki would be great.
>  On Dec 3, 2005, at 9:44 PM, Alex Ionescu wrote:
>  
Do you working for the CIA (MI5, KGB, MAD, Stasi, ...)? Usually, a
secret service will try to log all conversations. IRC is way, where
people do speak what they currently thinking. I don't see a reason to
log this conversation.

- Hartmut

[Sylvain Petreolle]

agreed :)
--- Hartmut Birr <osexpert(a)googlemail.com> a écrit :

>   Do you working for the CIA (MI5, KGB, MAD, Stasi,
> ...)? Usually, a
>  secret service will try to log all conversations. IRC is way, where
>  people do speak what they currently thinking. I don't see a reason to
>  log this conversation.
>  
>  - Hartmut
>  _______________________________________________
>  Ros-dev mailing list
>  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
>  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>   

Kind regards,
Sylvain Petreolle (aka Usurp)
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