Re: [ros-dev] Improving our procedure

[Matthias Kupfer]

Hi,

just for your information, I have already written a script and it's already 
available in trunk (/trunk/tools/changelog/autocl.py), but Aleksey decided to 
make the ChangeLog manually. Of course the script can't do any magic, but it 
was intended to setup up a ChangeLog-base for manual adjustments with the 
great advantage that nothing will be forgotten. Maybe we can improve the 
script to fit it to our needs and make it as much flexible as possible, but 
nevertheless, we have to give it a chance to judge...

Matthias

-- 
Matthias Kupfer          phone [phone]
Wilhelm-Firl-Straße 21   mobile [phone]
09122 Chemnitz, Germany

[Gregor Schneider]

I already asked why it wasn't used for 0.3.11 CL before starting my parts
manually. Somebody answered it is because of the mess it caused - but I
can't remember any mess nor the person answering me.

2009/12/15 Matthias Kupfer <mkupfer(a)reactos.org>

>   Hi,
>
>  just for your information, I have already written a script and it's already
>  available in trunk (/trunk/tools/changelog/autocl.py), but Aleksey decided
>  to
>  make the ChangeLog manually. Of course the script can't do any magic, but
>  it
>  was intended to setup up a ChangeLog-base for manual adjustments with the
>  great advantage that nothing will be forgotten. Maybe we can improve the
>  script to fit it to our needs and make it as much flexible as possible, but
>  nevertheless, we have to give it a chance to judge...
>
>  Matthias
>
>  --
>  Matthias Kupfer          phone [phone]
>  Wilhelm-Firl-Straße 21   mobile [phone]
>  09122 Chemnitz, Germany
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  Ros-dev mailing list
>  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
>  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>

[Timo Kreuzer]

Thinking about the changelog problem, I had the following idea:

On the website there would be a place maybe called "myDevelopment" or
something. Here you would automatically find a list of all your recent
commits. Seperated by release version. By default every new commit
creates a new entry here. But you can manage the entries.
- Edit the message and component of each entry
- Mark an entry as trivial. These changes don't get into the changelog
at all.
- Split an entry, if a single commit contains 2 changes. You can fix up
the messages afterwards.
- Merge 2 or more entries into one new.
On release the whole stuff will be gathered together.

Additional features:
- Mark an entry as active workitem. Folling commits will automatically
go in there.
- Show recent activity on the frontpage.
- Add planned activities, private notes, TODOs, FIXMEs, status, bugzilla
links, etc

[Ged Murphy]

I definitely like this idea. It's much more workable than a blind script,
changelogs _need_ human interaction.
The problem is, who would write such a webservice and would people use it?

Ged.

-----Original Message-----
From: ros-dev-bounces(a)reactos.org [mailto:[e-mail]] On
Behalf Of Timo Kreuzer
Sent: 15 December 2009 16:45
To: ReactOS Development List
Subject: Re: [ros-dev] Improving our procedure

Thinking about the changelog problem, I had the following idea:

On the website there would be a place maybe called "myDevelopment" or
something. Here you would automatically find a list of all your recent
commits. Seperated by release version. By default every new commit
creates a new entry here. But you can manage the entries.
- Edit the message and component of each entry
- Mark an entry as trivial. These changes don't get into the changelog
at all.
- Split an entry, if a single commit contains 2 changes. You can fix up
the messages afterwards.
- Merge 2 or more entries into one new.
On release the whole stuff will be gathered together.

Additional features:
- Mark an entry as active workitem. Folling commits will automatically
go in there.
- Show recent activity on the frontpage.
- Add planned activities, private notes, TODOs, FIXMEs, status, bugzilla
links, etc


_______________________________________________
Ros-dev mailing list
Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev

[Alex Ionescu]

I still don't see how writing such a webservice + figuring out how to use it is
simpler than just dumping your user log and copy/pasting the entries with a little bit of
formatting cleanup.

It never took me more than an hour, tops, for hundreds of commits in a given release!

I don't understand how a ReactOS developer, which (at least I fucking hope so)
probably spends 6 hours debugging an issue by looking at prints, stepping through code,
and finally discovering the race condition (the most BORING work ever) at least once a
week, can't afford doing one hour of boring work every 6 months?!
Just how lazy are you...

On 2009-12-15, at 12:24 PM, Ged Murphy wrote:

>   I definitely like this idea. It's much more
> workable than a blind script,
>  changelogs _need_ human interaction.
>  The problem is, who would write such a webservice and would people use it?
>  
>  Ged.
>  
>  -----Original Message-----
>  From: ros-dev-bounces(a)reactos.org [mailto:[e-mail]] On
>  Behalf Of Timo Kreuzer
>  Sent: 15 December 2009 16:45
>  To: ReactOS Development List
>  Subject: Re: [ros-dev] Improving our procedure
>  
>  Thinking about the changelog problem, I had the following idea:
>  
>  On the website there would be a place maybe called "myDevelopment" or
>  something. Here you would automatically find a list of all your recent
>  commits. Seperated by release version. By default every new commit
>  creates a new entry here. But you can manage the entries.
>  - Edit the message and component of each entry
>  - Mark an entry as trivial. These changes don't get into the changelog
>  at all.
>  - Split an entry, if a single commit contains 2 changes. You can fix up
>  the messages afterwards.
>  - Merge 2 or more entries into one new.
>  On release the whole stuff will be gathered together.
>  
>  Additional features:
>  - Mark an entry as active workitem. Folling commits will automatically
>  go in there.
>  - Show recent activity on the frontpage.
>  - Add planned activities, private notes, TODOs, FIXMEs, status, bugzilla
>  links, etc
>  
>  
>  _______________________________________________
>  Ros-dev mailing list
>  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
>  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>  
>  
>  _______________________________________________
>  Ros-dev mailing list
>  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
>  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev 
Best regards,
Alex Ionescu

[Ged Murphy]

I agree, but something is obviously amiss somewhere as changelogs aren't
being done.
Considering you can't force people to do them, maybe making it easier would
help?

I don't know what else to suggest, nagging people doesn't work as Z98 will
confirm.
Maybe we just need to put more emphasis on getting it done and gradually
slide people back into that way of working?


-----Original Message-----
From: ros-dev-bounces(a)reactos.org [mailto:[e-mail]] On
Behalf Of Alex Ionescu
Sent: 15 December 2009 17:45
To: ReactOS Development List
Subject: Re: [ros-dev] Improving our procedure

I still don't see how writing such a webservice + figuring out how to use it
is simpler than just dumping your user log and copy/pasting the entries with
a little bit of formatting cleanup.

It never took me more than an hour, tops, for hundreds of commits in a given
release!

I don't understand how a ReactOS developer, which (at least I fucking hope
so) probably spends 6 hours debugging an issue by looking at prints,
stepping through code, and finally discovering the race condition (the most
BORING work ever) at least once a week, can't afford doing one hour of
boring work every 6 months?!
Just how lazy are you...

On 2009-12-15, at 12:24 PM, Ged Murphy wrote:

>   I definitely like this idea. It's much more
> workable than a blind script,
>  changelogs _need_ human interaction.
>  The problem is, who would write such a webservice and would people use it?
>  
>  Ged.
>  
>  -----Original Message-----
>  From: ros-dev-bounces(a)reactos.org [mailto:[e-mail]] On
>  Behalf Of Timo Kreuzer
>  Sent: 15 December 2009 16:45
>  To: ReactOS Development List
>  Subject: Re: [ros-dev] Improving our procedure
>  
>  Thinking about the changelog problem, I had the following idea:
>  
>  On the website there would be a place maybe called "myDevelopment" or
>  something. Here you would automatically find a list of all your recent
>  commits. Seperated by release version. By default every new commit
>  creates a new entry here. But you can manage the entries.
>  - Edit the message and component of each entry
>  - Mark an entry as trivial. These changes don't get into the changelog
>  at all.
>  - Split an entry, if a single commit contains 2 changes. You can fix up
>  the messages afterwards.
>  - Merge 2 or more entries into one new.
>  On release the whole stuff will be gathered together.
>  
>  Additional features:
>  - Mark an entry as active workitem. Folling commits will automatically
>  go in there.
>  - Show recent activity on the frontpage.
>  - Add planned activities, private notes, TODOs, FIXMEs, status, bugzilla
>  links, etc
>  
>  
>  _______________________________________________
>  Ros-dev mailing list
>  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
>  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>  
>  
>  _______________________________________________
>  Ros-dev mailing list
>  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
>  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev 
Best regards,
Alex Ionescu


_______________________________________________
Ros-dev mailing list
Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev

[Timo Kreuzer]

Alex Ionescu schrieb:
>   I still don't see how writing such a webservice +
> figuring out how to use it is simpler than just dumping your user log and copy/pasting the
> entries with a little bit of formatting cleanup.
>     
Why do people bother figuring out how MSVC works, when they can as well
write the commands in the console? Why do people bother with fancy GUIs
at all?
Maybe because it's more comfortable.

Why do people enjoy twitter more than writing letters?
It's quick'n'easy. You can do it in the meanwhile. While you're waiting
for your stuff to compile. You cannot do your changelog in the meanwhile.

And the most boring debugging session is probably more enjoyable than
writing a changelog.

[Alex Ionescu]

You know what else is boring? Going to a shitty university class, going to meetings at
work, listening to your wife whine about her backstabbing girlfriends, and helping your
child work out a 4th grade math problem.

It's called responsibility.

On 2009-12-15, at 1:00 PM, Timo Kreuzer wrote:

>   Alex Ionescu schrieb:
> >   I still don't see how writing such a
> > webservice + figuring out how to use it is simpler than just dumping your user log and
> > copy/pasting the entries with a little bit of formatting cleanup.
> >   
>  Why do people bother figuring out how MSVC works, when they can as well
>  write the commands in the console? Why do people bother with fancy GUIs
>  at all?
>  Maybe because it's more comfortable.
>  
>  Why do people enjoy twitter more than writing letters?
>  It's quick'n'easy. You can do it in the meanwhile. While you're waiting
>  for your stuff to compile. You cannot do your changelog in the meanwhile.
>  
>  And the most boring debugging session is probably more enjoyable than
>  writing a changelog.
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  _______________________________________________
>  Ros-dev mailing list
>  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
>  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev 
Best regards,
Alex Ionescu

[Johannes Anderwald]

Alex Ionescu schrieb:
>   You know what else is boring? Going to a shitty
> university class, going to meetings at work, listening to your wife whine about her
> backstabbing girlfriends, and helping your child work out a 4th grade math problem.
>
>  It's called responsibility.
>     
Perfect.
+1
You hit it.

Johannes Anderwald

[Sir Gallantmon]

On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 4:40 PM, Johannes Anderwald
<janderwald(a)reactos.org>wrote;wrote:

>   Alex Ionescu schrieb:
> >   You know what else is boring? Going to a shitty
> > university class, going 
>  to meetings at work, listening to your wife whine about her
> backstabbing
>  girlfriends, and helping your child work out a 4th grade math problem.
> >  
> >  It's called responsibility.
> >  
>  Perfect.
>  +1
>  You hit it.
>
>  Johannes Anderwald
>
>  
Couldn't have said it better myself... Life sometimes sucks, mostly it's
boring, and sometimes it's exciting.  You gotta get through it all, and do
everything you're supposed to do by the end of the day. Otherwise, it'll
bite you in the ass much later and you will wish you did it when you were
supposed to.

Alex, you may be "abrasive," but at least you know exactly what you're
supposed to be doing!
*thumbs up*

[Love Nystrom]

Alex Ionescu wrote:
>   You know what else is boring? Going to a shitty
> university class, going to meetings at work, listening to your wife whine about her
> backstabbing girlfriends, and helping your child work out a 4th grade math problem.
>
>  It's called responsibility.
>     
Precisely.. So f*in true it brings a smile to my weary face ;-)
Thumbs up man!

[Steven Edwards]

On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 1:57 PM, Alex Ionescu <ionucu(a)videotron.ca> wrote:
>   You know what else is boring? Going to a shitty
> university class, going to meetings at work, listening to your wife whine about her
> backstabbing girlfriends, and helping your child work out a 4th grade math problem.
>
>  It's called responsibility. 
If we made it a requirement for people just be responsible and write
proper Changelog messages as part of the commit then there would not
be the added responsibility of doing it after the fact. The release
manager could just grep for important shit and be done with it.

I am in favor of public ridicule, even those of us that don't code but
review patches can help out. Every time some commits a patch with an
inconclusive Changelog we should call them to the carpet and if it
keeps happening they need commit access revoked. I know of no other
major open source project that would put up with the shit.

Thanks
-- 
Steven Edwards

"There is one thing stronger than all the armies in the world, and
that is an idea whose time has come." - Victor Hugo

[victor martinez]

Your idea Timo seems to be quite nice, but seems to be a longterm plan.Creating an
interface for developing takes some time but is a great idea.
The issue is that we should face the problems with Changelog asap.
I still suggest the idea of opening the Changelog for the next release the same day that
we release 0.3.11,calling it,as Gregor said, "Changelog for next release", so
all the work hasnt to be done in the latest week, and Devs can fill it little by little.
Maybe indeed some Devs wont find time in 3 months to add their commits.
In this project there is the " I can´t force Somebody to do Something"
statement, and following this idea there is NO documentation "I can´t force Devs to
do documentation", there is NO commiting/reverting rules (why?if I can´t force Devs
to follow them?), and there is of course NO way of forcing to create a Changelog neither.

So we have to be prepared for a Dev who doesnt want to create his Changelog.If he doesnt
want and from the Project point of view it is critical, then we have to find a workaround.
Today the workaround was me using my hand and pasting as mad (thanks Ged,dreimer,guys for
showing your gratitude, but it is the less i can do if i want a release before end of the
year), this workaround is not a proper one and of course it would be painful if we points
to have 10000 devs working in this project(one dev ,be sure, will fail). So,we have to
decide a PlanB if a dev doesnt want to/can´t complete his Changelog,and until now just the
Script seems to be the only solution. To use the Script Devs should follow some formatting
RULES, and again we are in the same "I cant force Devs to follow formatting
Rules".
So maybe it´s time to begin sending to shit the "I can´t force..." statement and
remember that there are Small-Easy-Duties and Rights,for the sake of the project, and if a
Dev(which is one of the MOST representatives figures in a Project and should care for the
sake for it) doesnt want to follow,then,sending him then to...make the ReactOS Changelog
from r1 to nowadays,or (lets him choose), to hell. If a Dev can´t understand this, maybe
he should consider the  @ in front of  his IRC nickname. Noone can obligate someone but
someone has to show that he cares for this Project.And this doesn´t affect just Devs,but
Testers,Translators or anyone who feels as part of this ship called ReactOS Awesome
Project.



 		 	   		  
_________________________________________________________________
Date una vuelta por Sietes y conoce el pueblo de los expertos en Windows 7
http://www.sietesunpueblodeexpertos.com/

[victor martinez]

:)
Nice to see opinions, i wasnt aware about Matthias script. Can it be set to make a
Changelog by author? I mean, not processing all the commit messages but just from those
commiters that want to use it?I think there are devs that doesnt know about the existence
of this script. :)
If more and more devs joins this project, then Changelog is going to be a pain in the...so
automated tools will be a must.


 		 	   		  
_________________________________________________________________
Deja que Sietes te enseñe todo los secretos de Windows
http://www.sietesunpueblodeexpertos.com/

[Zachary Gorden]

The person who said it was a mess was me, and the last time around due to
the inconsistent commit message formats used by different devs it did create
one.  And as one of the people responsible for formatting the changelog, my
workload increased due to it.  Which was why I wanted a guideline/template
ready for devs to use in their commits before we tried using the script
again.  And as you're likely aware, I haven't been on consistently lately
due to schoolwork so the final decision on the format is unknown to me.

On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 8:50 AM, victor martinez <vicmarcal(a)hotmail.com>wrote;wrote:

>   :)
>  Nice to see opinions, i wasnt aware about Matthias script. Can it be set to
>  make a Changelog by author? I mean, not processing all the commit messages
>  but just from those commiters that want to use it?I think there are devs
>  that doesnt know about the existence of this script. :)
>  If more and more devs joins this project, then Changelog is going to be a
>  pain in the...so automated tools will be a must.
>
>
>
>  ------------------------------
>  49 habitantes, 49 expertos en Windows 7. Así es Sietes,
> ¡Visítalo!<http://www.sietesunpueblodeexpertos.com/>
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  Ros-dev mailing list
>  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
>  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>

[Alex Ionescu]

You guys with your "Creating a changelog is boring" are really really acting
immature and irresponsible.

I, considered the most "arrogant", "asshole" and "abrasive"
person of this project, who would "never low myself" to writing a changelog
after "Rewriting the kernel" ALWAYS FOUND THE F*CKING TIME TO SIT DOWN FOR AN
HOUR AND DO MY LOG.

How HARD can it possibly be, when, no offense, most of you do 1/5th of the number of
commits I used to do?

Use SVN to grab the commit log, use a regexp to remove non-YOURUSERNAMEHERE logs, and if
you have BEEN WRITING GOOD LOGS FOR EACH COMMIT, you can pretty much COPY PASTE THAT LIST,
and then organize it into modules.

Oh yeah, to those of you whose commit logs have been "fix a bug.", well SUCK IT
UP.

On 2009-12-15, at 10:11 AM, Zachary Gorden wrote:

>   The person who said it was a mess was me, and the last
> time around due to the inconsistent commit message formats used by different devs it did
> create one.  And as one of the people responsible for formatting the changelog, my
> workload increased due to it.  Which was why I wanted a guideline/template ready for devs
> to use in their commits before we tried using the script again.  And as you're likely
> aware, I haven't been on consistently lately due to schoolwork so the final decision
> on the format is unknown to me.
>  
>  On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 8:50 AM, victor martinez <vicmarcal(a)hotmail.com> wrote:
>  :)
>  Nice to see opinions, i wasnt aware about Matthias script. Can it be set to make a
> Changelog by author? I mean, not processing all the commit messages but just from those
> commiters that want to use it?I think there are devs that doesnt know about the existence
> of this script. :)
>  If more and more devs joins this project, then Changelog is going to be a pain in
> the...so automated tools will be a must.
>  
>  
>  
>  49 habitantes, 49 expertos en Windows 7. Así es Sietes, ¡Visítalo!
>  
>  _______________________________________________
>  Ros-dev mailing list
>  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
>  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>  
>  _______________________________________________
>  Ros-dev mailing list
>  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
>  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev 
Best regards,
Alex Ionescu

[Gregor Schneider]

That's exactly what I was talking about:
for me it means 95% copy and paste amd still takes quite a lot of time since
it has to be organised into modules. Thats why I mentioned >boring< and like
the idea of a script to do that. Thanks for using caps and acting immature
to point that out.

2009/12/15 Alex Ionescu &lt;ionucu(a)videotron.ca&gt;

>   You guys with your "Creating a changelog is
> boring" are really really
>  acting immature and irresponsible.
>
>  I, considered the most "arrogant", "asshole" and "abrasive"
> person of this
>  project, who would "never low myself" to writing a changelog after
>  "Rewriting the kernel" ALWAYS FOUND THE F*CKING TIME TO SIT DOWN FOR AN HOUR
>  AND DO MY LOG.
>
>  How HARD can it possibly be, when, no offense, most of you do 1/5th of the
>  number of commits I used to do?
>
>  Use SVN to grab the commit log, use a regexp to remove non-YOURUSERNAMEHERE
>  logs, and if you have BEEN WRITING GOOD LOGS FOR EACH COMMIT, you can pretty
>  much COPY PASTE THAT LIST, and then organize it into modules.
>
>  Oh yeah, to those of you whose commit logs have been "fix a bug.", well
>  SUCK IT UP.
>
>   On 2009-12-15, at 10:11 AM, Zachary Gorden wrote:
>
>  The person who said it was a mess was me, and the last time around due to
>  the inconsistent commit message formats used by different devs it did create
>  one.  And as one of the people responsible for formatting the changelog, my
>  workload increased due to it.  Which was why I wanted a guideline/template
>  ready for devs to use in their commits before we tried using the script
>  again.  And as you're likely aware, I haven't been on consistently lately
>  due to schoolwork so the final decision on the format is unknown to me.
>
>  On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 8:50 AM, victor martinez &lt;vicmarcal(a)hotmail.com&gt;wrote;wrote:
>
> >   :)
> >  Nice to see opinions, i wasnt aware about Matthias script. Can it be set
> >  to make a Changelog by author? I mean, not processing all the commit
> >  messages but just from those commiters that want to use it?I think there are
> >  devs that doesnt know about the existence of this script. :)
> >  If more and more devs joins this project, then Changelog is going to be a
> >  pain in the...so automated tools will be a must.
> >
> >
> >
> >  ------------------------------
> >  49 habitantes, 49 expertos en Windows 7. Así es Sietes,
> > ¡Visítalo!<http://www.sietesunpueblodeexpertos.com/>
> >
> >  _______________________________________________
> >  Ros-dev mailing list
> >  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
> >  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
> >  
>  _______________________________________________
>  Ros-dev mailing list
>  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
>  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>
>
>   Best regards,
>  Alex Ionescu
>
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  Ros-dev mailing list
>  Ros-dev(a)reactos.org
>  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>