RE: [ros-general] Browsers

[Colin Burn]

What would happen if you installed IE on ReactOS?

Does the licence allow this?

Whilst I'm thinking about it... What would happen if a user went to the
windows update site?

-----Original Message-----
From: Nate DeSimone [mailto:[e-mail]]
Sent: 05 February 2004 07:12
To: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: [ros-general] Browsers

I also agree with this,

We should take Firebird (since its only the browser (not mail, IRC, 
composer, etc.) and its faster than IE) and add in the ActiveX control 
plug in (which you can get at: 
http://www.iol.ie/~locka/mozilla/plugin.htm) and also make a COM wrapper 
for the Gecko rendering engine, between those two we should have a full 
replacement to IE for the OS.  I think that there was some Netscape 
employees working on making a COM wrapper for Mozilla, but I can't 
remember the website, and development seemed to be pretty inactive, but 
its better than starting from scratch.

David Dunn wrote:
> I went through the forum and heard a lot of things about which browser 
> (mostly mozilla) should be used as the default for ROS.
>
> Just my idea, but I think that we should use a modified version of the 
> Mozilla ActiveX control instead with a dummy browser placed on top.  
> There are 3 reasons why I think that this (even though it may be more 
> difficult) is probably the best choice in the long run.
>
> -Programs that require IE will instead be redirected to use Mozilla's 
> rendering engine instead
> -The dummy browser could store it's bookmarks in a similar manner to 
> the way IE does adding to the startbutton/bookmarks compatibility
> -Still promotes OSS
>
> Firebird and Mozilla are great and all, but if there isn't 
> compatability with the myriads of programs that want to call IE for 
> some reason or another ROS will be slower to be adopted
> _______________________________________________
> ros-general mailing list
> [e-mail]
> http://reactos.com/mailman/listinfo/ros-general

_______________________________________________
ros-general mailing list
[e-mail]
http://reactos.com/mailman/listinfo/ros-general

[Robert Köpferl]

It would replace the GUIDs for IE. So they would reference an IE-dll 
rather than the mozilla-dll.
This would be no problem since mozilla-activeX still provides it's own 
GUID. It's just the method to have a default OSS browserplugin. And to 
serve all the people who don't want security holes included.

Colin Burn schrieb:
> What would happen if you installed IE on ReactOS?
>
> Does the licence allow this?
>
> Whilst I'm thinking about it... What would happen if a user went to the
> windows update site?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Nate DeSimone [mailto:[e-mail]]
> Sent: 05 February 2004 07:12
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: [ros-general] Browsers
>
> I also agree with this,
> We should take Firebird (since its only the browser (not mail, IRC, 
>
> composer, etc.) and its faster than IE) and add in the ActiveX control 
> plug in (which you can get at: 
> http://www.iol.ie/~locka/mozilla/plugin.htm) and also make a COM wrapper 
> for the Gecko rendering engine, between those two we should have a full 
> replacement to IE for the OS.  I think that there was some Netscape 
> employees working on making a COM wrapper for Mozilla, but I can't 
> remember the website, and development seemed to be pretty inactive, but 
> its better than starting from scratch.
>
> David Dunn wrote:
> > I went through the forum and heard a lot of things about which browser 
> > (mostly mozilla) should be used as the default for ROS.
> >
> > Just my idea, but I think that we should use a modified version of the 
> > Mozilla ActiveX control instead with a dummy browser placed on top.  
> > There are 3 reasons why I think that this (even though it may be more 
> > difficult) is probably the best choice in the long run.
> >
> > -Programs that require IE will instead be redirected to use Mozilla's 
> > rendering engine instead
> > -The dummy browser could store it's bookmarks in a similar manner to 
> > the way IE does adding to the startbutton/bookmarks compatibility
> > -Still promotes OSS
> >
> > Firebird and Mozilla are great and all, but if there isn't 
> > compatability with the myriads of programs that want to call IE for 
> > some reason or another ROS will be slower to be adopted
> > _______________________________________________
> > ros-general mailing list
> > [e-mail]
> > http://reactos.com/mailman/listinfo/ros-general
>
> ros-general mailing list
> [e-mail]
> http://reactos.com/mailman/listinfo/ros-general
> _______________________________________________
> ros-general mailing list
> [e-mail]
> http://reactos.com/mailman/listinfo/ros-general

[Tom Lee Mullins]

Robert Köpferl wrote:
> It would replace the GUIDs for IE. So they would reference an IE-dll 
> rather than the mozilla-dll.
> This would be no problem since mozilla-activeX still provides it's own 
> GUID. It's just the method to have a default OSS browserplugin. And to 
> serve all the people who don't want security holes included.
>
> Colin Burn schrieb:
> > What would happen if you installed IE on ReactOS?
> >
> > Does the licence allow this?
> >
> > Whilst I'm thinking about it... What would happen if a user went to the
> > windows update site?
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Nate DeSimone [mailto:[e-mail]]
> > Sent: 05 February 2004 07:12
> > To: [e-mail]
> > Subject: Re: [ros-general] Browsers
> >
> > I also agree with this,
> > We should take Firebird (since its only the browser (not mail, 
> >
> > IRC, composer, etc.) and its faster than IE) and add in the ActiveX 
> > control plug in (which you can get at: 
> > http://www.iol.ie/~locka/mozilla/plugin.htm) and also make a COM 
> > wrapper for the Gecko rendering engine, between those two we should 
> > have a full replacement to IE for the OS.  I think that there was 
> > some Netscape employees working on making a COM wrapper for Mozilla, 
> > but I can't remember the website, and development seemed to be pretty 
> > inactive, but its better than starting from scratch.
> >
> > David Dunn wrote:
> > > I went through the forum and heard a lot of things about which 
> > > browser (mostly mozilla) should be used as the default for ROS.
> > >
> > > Just my idea, but I think that we should use a modified version of 
> > > the Mozilla ActiveX control instead with a dummy browser placed on 
> > > top.  There are 3 reasons why I think that this (even though it may 
> > > be more difficult) is probably the best choice in the long run.
> > >
> > > -Programs that require IE will instead be redirected to use 
> > > Mozilla's rendering engine instead
> > > -The dummy browser could store it's bookmarks in a similar manner to 
> > > the way IE does adding to the startbutton/bookmarks compatibility
> > > -Still promotes OSS
> > >
> > > Firebird and Mozilla are great and all, but if there isn't 
> > > compatability with the myriads of programs that want to call IE for 
> > > some reason or another ROS will be slower to be adopted
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > ros-general mailing list
> > > [e-mail]
> > > http://reactos.com/mailman/listinfo/ros-general
> >
> > ros-general mailing list
> > [e-mail]
> > http://reactos.com/mailman/listinfo/ros-general
> > _______________________________________________
> > ros-general mailing list
> > [e-mail]
> > http://reactos.com/mailman/listinfo/ros-general
>
> ros-general mailing list
> [e-mail]
> http://reactos.com/mailman/listinfo/ros-general

Since Mozilla is open sourced, one could port it with any changes desired.

TomLeeM
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* * http://www.ecomstation.com * * * *
 * * * * *  * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

[Vizzini]

On Thu, 2004-02-05 at 03:44, Colin Burn wrote:
> What would happen if you installed IE on ReactOS?
>
> Does the licence allow this?

At the moment, it depends.  CodeWeavers installs MS Office (legal,
according to the Office EULA), which itself installs IE, without ever
asking for the IE license agreement.  Therefore, so they say, this is
just fine.

I think (but haven't checked lately) that the current IE license
requires the user to own a Windows license, which is still almost always
the case, but hopefully not forever.  It does this by claiming that IE
is an operating system component.

I personally don't believe that MS can enforce that requirement, but we
have a *lot* of thinking and planning to do before I'd be comfortable
actually recommending that someone ignore a license agreement. 
Certainly that is *not* the current position of this project.

-Vizzini

[Nate DeSimone]

Codeweavers only supports Internet Explorer versions that come with 
Office, however they don't support installing it by itself, which I do 
think is due to licensing issues.  I have actually looked at the IE EULA 
recently and they still claim that you may only use IE with a valid copy 
of Windows.  So even if the user installed IE via Office, I think its 
definitely still in the gray area as far a legality goes, so when your 
talking about a project like ReactOS where M$ will sue it for whatever 
they can, we should cover our ass as much as we can. (Well as soon as 
name ReactOS actually reaches a guy in upper management at M$ they will 
start suing anyway.)  Thus, we need to replace the browser (just like we 
have to replace the DLLs and not simply copy M$ DLLs into our 
distribution.)  That is why I recommended that we take Firebird and 
modify it so that it will accept ActiveX controls and have a COM 
interface, that way we will maintain compatibility and still be legal, 
and Firebird is better than IE anyway, and its going to be "the next 
mozilla" so it will save time later by just starting with it.

Vizzini wrote:
> On Thu, 2004-02-05 at 03:44, Colin Burn wrote:
> > What would happen if you installed IE on ReactOS?
> >
> > Does the licence allow this?
>
> At the moment, it depends.  CodeWeavers installs MS Office (legal,
> according to the Office EULA), which itself installs IE, without ever
> asking for the IE license agreement.  Therefore, so they say, this is
> just fine.
>
> I think (but haven't checked lately) that the current IE license
> requires the user to own a Windows license, which is still almost always
> the case, but hopefully not forever.  It does this by claiming that IE
> is an operating system component.
>
> I personally don't believe that MS can enforce that requirement, but we
> have a *lot* of thinking and planning to do before I'd be comfortable
> actually recommending that someone ignore a license agreement. 
> Certainly that is *not* the current position of this project.
>
> -Vizzini
>
> ros-general mailing list
> [e-mail]
> http://reactos.com/mailman/listinfo/ros-general

[KJK::Hyperion]

At 19.15 05/02/2004, you wrote:
> So even if the user installed IE via Office, I think its definitely still 
> in the gray area as far a legality goes,

Microsoft would like to define "legality" according to their own standards. 
Unfortunately for them, laws are still made by legitimate governments, and 
most of the governments we're likely to be involved with recognize both 
unlimited freedom to individuals as long as the rest of the society isn't 
harmed and a free market driven by fair competition. Requiring a Windows 
license to make use of Office using Internet Explorer as an excuse violates 
both principles: Microsoft can neither dictate what use you make of the 
licenses you bought from them (as long as you don't harm them, but we'll 
assume you've purchased the right number and kind of licenses) nor force 
you to buy their products in a bundle; plus, the limitation is clearly 
imposed in bad faith, since it's arbitrary, with no factual basis, and the 
very existence of ReactOS and Wine will prove this

That said, Internet Explorer sucks. Being able to run it will be merely a 
test of strength for ReactOS. Otherwise, it's just more of the usual 
Microsoft shit: ad-hoc, idiosyncratic, driven by greed rather than good 
engineering. We should stay clear away from it

[Tom Lee Mullins]

Vizzini wrote:
> On Thu, 2004-02-05 at 03:44, Colin Burn wrote:
> > What would happen if you installed IE on ReactOS?
> >
> > Does the licence allow this?
>
> At the moment, it depends.  CodeWeavers installs MS Office (legal,
> according to the Office EULA), which itself installs IE, without ever
> asking for the IE license agreement.  Therefore, so they say, this is
> just fine.
>
> I think (but haven't checked lately) that the current IE license
> requires the user to own a Windows license, which is still almost always
> the case, but hopefully not forever.  It does this by claiming that IE
> is an operating system component.
>
> I personally don't believe that MS can enforce that requirement, but we
> have a *lot* of thinking and planning to do before I'd be comfortable
> actually recommending that someone ignore a license agreement. 
> Certainly that is *not* the current position of this project.
>
> -Vizzini
>
> ros-general mailing list
> [e-mail]
> http://reactos.com/mailman/listinfo/ros-general

One could also use Open Office ( http://www.openoffice.org ) instead of 
MSOffice.
It too is open sourced like Mozilla.

TomLeeM
-- 
* * * * *BigWarpGuy / TomLeeM* * * *
 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * * eComStation * * * * * * * *
 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*   the os for the internet generation *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* * http://www.ecomstation.com * * * *
 * * * * *  * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

[Jeff Smith]

I think they are talking about distributing this "mozilla" browser with
ReactOS,  and if that's the case, I don't think we can legally do that with
IE... I haven't read the licence, so I don't know if we can install it on
ReactOS or not...

as for Windows update, the site would reject ReactOS, because #1 the OS
version isn't anyting that MS supposerts, and I'm suer the browser will have
a simliar problem... but I think it would be cool if we could have out own
ReactOS update site, to keep the users up to date...
----- Original Message -----
From: "Colin Burn" [e-mail]
To: [e-mail]
Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2004 2:44 AM
Subject: RE: [ros-general] Browsers
> What would happen if you installed IE on ReactOS?
>
> Does the licence allow this?
>
> Whilst I'm thinking about it... What would happen if a user went to the
> windows update site?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Nate DeSimone [mailto:[e-mail]]
> Sent: 05 February 2004 07:12
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: [ros-general] Browsers
>
> I also agree with this,
> We should take Firebird (since its only the browser (not mail, IRC,
>
> composer, etc.) and its faster than IE) and add in the ActiveX control
> plug in (which you can get at:
> http://www.iol.ie/~locka/mozilla/plugin.htm) and also make a COM wrapper
> for the Gecko rendering engine, between those two we should have a full
> replacement to IE for the OS.  I think that there was some Netscape
> employees working on making a COM wrapper for Mozilla, but I can't
> remember the website, and development seemed to be pretty inactive, but
> its better than starting from scratch.
>
> David Dunn wrote:
> > I went through the forum and heard a lot of things about which browser
> > (mostly mozilla) should be used as the default for ROS.
> >
> > Just my idea, but I think that we should use a modified version of the
> > Mozilla ActiveX control instead with a dummy browser placed on top.
> > There are 3 reasons why I think that this (even though it may be more
> > difficult) is probably the best choice in the long run.
> >
> > -Programs that require IE will instead be redirected to use Mozilla's
> > rendering engine instead
> > -The dummy browser could store it's bookmarks in a similar manner to
> > the way IE does adding to the startbutton/bookmarks compatibility
> > -Still promotes OSS
> >
> > Firebird and Mozilla are great and all, but if there isn't
> > compatability with the myriads of programs that want to call IE for
> > some reason or another ROS will be slower to be adopted
> > _______________________________________________
> > ros-general mailing list
> > [e-mail]
> > http://reactos.com/mailman/listinfo/ros-general
>
> ros-general mailing list
> [e-mail]
> http://reactos.com/mailman/listinfo/ros-general
> _______________________________________________
> ros-general mailing list
> [e-mail]
> http://reactos.com/mailman/listinfo/ros-general

[Tom Lee Mullins]

Jeff Smith wrote:
> I think they are talking about distributing this "mozilla" browser with
> ReactOS,  and if that's the case, I don't think we can legally do that with
> IE... I haven't read the licence, so I don't know if we can install it on
> ReactOS or not...
>
> as for Windows update, the site would reject ReactOS, because #1 the OS
> version isn't anyting that MS supposerts, and I'm suer the browser will have
> a simliar problem... but I think it would be cool if we could have out own
> ReactOS update site, to keep the users up to date...
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Colin Burn" [e-mail]
> To: [e-mail]
> Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2004 2:44 AM
> Subject: RE: [ros-general] Browsers

A ROS update site would be nice.

TomLeeM

* * * * *BigWarpGuy / TomLeeM* * * *
 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * * eComStation * * * * * * * *
 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*   the os for the internet generation *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* * http://www.ecomstation.com * * * *
 * * * * *  * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *