RE: [ros-general] New to ReactOS

Ok Kevin, you win.
How can I begin to answer you?
Except to say, take a look at where tha AIM group: Apple IBM and Motorola are going.
It looks like Wintel group Microsoft and Intel will not be far behind either.

So please take a look at what has been thrown away in 1996.

www.cs.uta.fi/kurssit/OPOK/smalltalk/Smalltalk%20Express/

Please download it. It's only about 3 MB compressed (in two files).
It is free non commercial and will do absolutley no damage I promise you.
Because it was designed for DOS it will call the Windows API only very rarely.
In fact I ran  it in safe mode and I could access the hard disk, which is supposed to be
impossible to do.
This version is probably limited to 256 colors so make sure you switch the display.
Then we can talk later about the relavance of 'C' and 'Assembler'
Regards and rosuccess
Justin





---- Kevin Lawton <kepla(a)btinternet.com> wrote: 
>   Yeah, okay, but . . .
>  With C being a 'higher level' language than assembler it will always be
>  easier for a group of humans to work on a project in. You could take this
>  further and use something like Java, though not for an op-system kernel as
>  Java programs need something below them to run the run-time virtual machine.
>  C is a good language for writing an op system in because that is why it was
>  designed (by Kerningham and Ritchie - their book on C is still the best work
>  of its kind). It was created to write the Unix op system in and the
>  combination of high and low-level features will always make it ideal for
>  such a task. In terms of generating nice tight machine code when compiled, C
>  is probably the best high-level language in this respect.
>  Modern computers are so enormously powerful that most projects feel that it
>  is unnecessary to use assembler for the extreme efficiency it offers - C is
>  more than 'good enough'. But, when projects ARE written for modern machines
>  using assembler we then start to see just how fast things can go. We might
>  feel that the 'average' PC is plenty fast enough performing day-to-day tasks
>  with an op system written in C and applications in Java or VB, and it
>  probably is, but give it a chance to run software written in good assembler
>  and you can get quite a surprise. Even if we think we can spare it, those
>  high-level language programs (incl op system) can perform nothing like the
>  blistering performance you can get from really good assembler code. You also
>  find that because assembler programming is so 'direct' then the resulting
>  machine code tends to be far more compact than that generated from other
>  languages. Smaller programs (op systems included) use less room on disk,
>  load faster into a smaller memory space and tend to have shorter execution
>  paths.
>  It is all fine and dandy that ReactOS will be a working 'clone' of Windows
>  but Windows is often criticised for being large and slow. What if ReactOS
>  could achieve full Windows compatibility while being much smaller and faster
>  ?
>  Kevin.
>  
> >   -----Original Message-----
> >  From: ros-general-bounces(a)reactos.org
> >  [mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of Murphy, Ged
> >  (Bolton)
> >  Sent: 18 October 2005 08:13
> >  To: 'ReactOS General List'
> >  Subject: RE: [ros-general] New to ReactOS
> >
> >
> >  jwalsh(a)bigpond.net.au wrote:
> >
> > >   Who uses assembler for serious anything these
> > > days? 
> >  <snip>
> > >   If anybody from ros is really in need of
> > > assembler then 
> >  something is sus.
> >
> >
> >  Considering you can't build ROS without an assembler, something
> >  must be sus.
> >  If you look at the ReactOS kernel, you will find many asm files.
> >  My point was that the vast majority is written in C and is generally
> >  preferred.
> >
> >  Ged.
> >
> >
> >
> >  ************************************************************************
> >  The information contained in this message or any of its
> >  attachments is confidential and is intended for the exclusive
> >  use of the addressee. The information may also be legally
> >  privileged. The views expressed may not be company policy,
> >  but the personal views of the originator. If you are not the
> >  addressee, any disclosure, reproduction, distribution or other
> >  dissemination or use of this communication is strictly prohibited.
> >  If you have received this message in error, please contact
> >  postmaster(a)exideuk.co.uk
> >  <mailto:[e-mail]> and then delete this message.
> >
> >  Exide Technologies is an industrial and transportation battery
> >  producer and recycler with operations in 89 countries.
> >  Further information can be found at www.exide.com
> >
> >
> >  _______________________________________________
> >  ros-general mailing list
> >  ros-general(a)reactos.org
> >  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-general 
>  
>  _______________________________________________
>  ros-general mailing list
>  ros-general(a)reactos.org
>  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-general

[Kevin Lawton]

Hey, Justin, I wasn't trying to 'win' - didn't want to sound better or
anything. 
I just wanted to inject a point or two into the discussion. 
Anyway, thanks - the link is interesting. 
I still think the same principle applies - use a high-level language where you want the
emphasis on ease of development and maintenance but use a low-level language where speed
and efficiency are paramount. What I do think is interesting is where a low-level
language, like assembler, is used to produce small fast software - far more than strictly
'necessary' - resulting in high efficiency and an unexpected turn of speed. Like,
for example, the concept of a GUI-based op system which will fit on a floppy disk. In
other forms of engineering, electrical or mechanical for example, efficiency is highly
desirable for economy in both energy consumption and materials usage. Software engineering
doesn't currently seem to be following similar principles. 
What I think would be really cool would be if ReactOS was not just a Windows replacement,
but a faster and more efficient Windows replacement. 
Kevin.   

>   -----Original Message-----
>  From: jwalsh(a)bigpond.net.au [mailto:[e-mail]]
>  Sent: 18 October 2005 14:36
>  To: ReactOS General List
>  Cc: Kevin Lawton
>  Subject: RE: [ros-general] New to ReactOS
>  
>  
>  
>  Ok Kevin, you win.
>  How can I begin to answer you?
>  Except to say, take a look at where tha AIM group: Apple IBM and 
>  Motorola are going.
>  It looks like Wintel group Microsoft and Intel will not be far 
>  behind either.
>  
>  So please take a look at what has been thrown away in 1996.
>  
>  www.cs.uta.fi/kurssit/OPOK/smalltalk/Smalltalk%20Express/
>  
>  Please download it. It's only about 3 MB compressed (in two files).
>  It is free non commercial and will do absolutley no damage I promise you.
>  Because it was designed for DOS it will call the Windows API only 
>  very rarely.
>  In fact I ran  it in safe mode and I could access the hard disk, 
>  which is supposed to be impossible to do.
>  This version is probably limited to 256 colors so make sure you 
>  switch the display.
>  Then we can talk later about the relavance of 'C' and 'Assembler'
>  Regards and rosuccess
>  Justin
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  ---- Kevin Lawton <kepla(a)btinternet.com> wrote: 
> >   Yeah, okay, but . . .
> >  With C being a 'higher level' language than assembler it will always be
> >  easier for a group of humans to work on a project in. You could  
>  take this
> >   further and use something like Java, though not
> > for an  
>  op-system kernel as
> >   Java programs need something below them to run
> > the run-time  
>  virtual machine.
> >   C is a good language for writing an op system in
> > because that  
>  is why it was
> >   designed (by Kerningham and Ritchie - their book
> > on C is still  
>  the best work
> >   of its kind). It was created to write the Unix op
> > system in and the
> >  combination of high and low-level features will always make it ideal for
> >  such a task. In terms of generating nice tight machine code  
>  when compiled, C
> >   is probably the best high-level language in this
> > respect.
> >  Modern computers are so enormously powerful that most projects  
>  feel that it
> >   is unnecessary to use assembler for the extreme
> > efficiency it  
>  offers - C is
> >   more than 'good enough'. But, when
> > projects ARE written for  
>  modern machines
> >   using assembler we then start to see just how
> > fast things can  
>  go. We might
> >   feel that the 'average' PC is plenty fast
> > enough performing  
>  day-to-day tasks
> >   with an op system written in C and applications
> > in Java or VB, and it
> >  probably is, but give it a chance to run software written in  
>  good assembler
> >   and you can get quite a surprise. Even if we
> > think we can spare  
>  it, those
> >   high-level language programs (incl op system) can
> > perform  
>  nothing like the
> >   blistering performance you can get from really
> > good assembler  
>  code. You also
> >   find that because assembler programming is so
> > 'direct' then the  
>  resulting
> >   machine code tends to be far more compact than
> > that generated from other
> >  languages. Smaller programs (op systems included) use less room on disk,
> >  load faster into a smaller memory space and tend to have  
>  shorter execution
> >   paths.
> >  It is all fine and dandy that ReactOS will be a working 'clone'  
>  of
> Windows
> >   but Windows is often criticised for being large
> > and slow. What  
>  if ReactOS
> >   could achieve full Windows compatibility while
> > being much  
>  smaller and faster
> >   ?
> >  Kevin.
> >  
> >  > -----Original Message-----
> >  > From: ros-general-bounces(a)reactos.org
> >  > [mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of Murphy, Ged
> >  > (Bolton)
> >  > Sent: 18 October 2005 08:13
> >  > To: 'ReactOS General List'
> >  > Subject: RE: [ros-general] New to ReactOS
> >  >
> >  >
> >  > jwalsh(a)bigpond.net.au wrote:
> >  >
> >  > > Who uses assembler for serious anything these days?
> >  > <snip>
> >  > > If anybody from ros is really in need of assembler then
> >  > something is sus.
> >  >
> >  >
> >  > Considering you can't build ROS without an assembler, something
> >  > must be sus.
> >  > If you look at the ReactOS kernel, you will find many asm files.
> >  > My point was that the vast majority is written in C and is generally
> >  > preferred.
> >  >
> >  > Ged.
> >  >
> >  >
> >  >
> >  >  
>  ************************************************************************
> > >   The
> > > information contained in this message or any of its
> > >  attachments is confidential and is intended for the exclusive
> > >  use of the addressee. The information may also be legally
> > >  privileged. The views expressed may not be company policy,
> > >  but the personal views of the originator. If you are not the
> > >  addressee, any disclosure, reproduction, distribution or other
> > >  dissemination or use of this communication is strictly prohibited.
> > >  If you have received this message in error, please contact
> > >  postmaster(a)exideuk.co.uk
> > >  <mailto:[e-mail]> and then delete this message.
> > >
> > >  Exide Technologies is an industrial and transportation battery
> > >  producer and recycler with operations in 89 countries.
> > >  Further information can be found at www.exide.com
> > >
> > >
> > >  _______________________________________________
> > >  ros-general mailing list
> > >  ros-general(a)reactos.org
> > >  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-general 
> >  
> >  _______________________________________________
> >  ros-general mailing list
> >  ros-general(a)reactos.org
> >  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-general 
>