RE: [ros-general] New to ReactOS

Right on Kevin, right on !!
I intuitively know you aren't trying to win. I like your style.
People of my generation don't like to be patronised, just challenged.
I have to admit I am not a spring chicken, just old and wasting away.
People like you give me that added burst of life. 
Please let me thank you. Lets make ReactOS something to boast about.
It makes me feel so good to have found ros-general.
Here the old and the young can come together with one mind.

But a few (little) adjustments could be helpful.
One such adjustment would be a doorway to MinGW-Msys and to Earnie Boyd.
He is the guy to help all those "C" advocates.
The doorway should be named ros-programming.
The other should be named ros-users.
Perhaps another for ros-abusers (just kidding).

Cheers and rosuccess

Justin
---- Kevin Lawton [e-mail] wrote:
> Hey, Justin, I wasn't trying to 'win' - didn't want to sound better or anything. 
> I just wanted to inject a point or two into the discussion. 
> Anyway, thanks - the link is interesting. 
> I still think the same principle applies - use a high-level language where you want the emphasis on ease of development and maintenance but use a low-level language where speed and efficiency are paramount. What I do think is interesting is where a low-level language, like assembler, is used to produce small fast software - far more than strictly 'necessary' - resulting in high efficiency and an unexpected turn of speed. Like, for example, the concept of a GUI-based op system which will fit on a floppy disk. In other forms of engineering, electrical or mechanical for example, efficiency is highly desirable for economy in both energy consumption and materials usage. Software engineering doesn't currently seem to be following similar principles. 
> What I think would be really cool would be if ReactOS was not just a Windows replacement, but a faster and more efficient Windows replacement. 
> Kevin.
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [e-mail] [mailto:[e-mail]]
> > Sent: 18 October 2005 14:36
> > To: ReactOS General List
> > Cc: Kevin Lawton
> > Subject: RE: [ros-general] New to ReactOS
> >
> > Ok Kevin, you win.
> > How can I begin to answer you?
> > Except to say, take a look at where tha AIM group: Apple IBM and 
> > Motorola are going.
> > It looks like Wintel group Microsoft and Intel will not be far 
> > behind either.
> >
> > So please take a look at what has been thrown away in 1996.
> >
> > www.cs.uta.fi/kurssit/OPOK/smalltalk/Smalltalk%20Express/
> >
> > Please download it. It's only about 3 MB compressed (in two files).
> > It is free non commercial and will do absolutley no damage I promise you.
> > Because it was designed for DOS it will call the Windows API only 
> > very rarely.
> > In fact I ran  it in safe mode and I could access the hard disk, 
> > which is supposed to be impossible to do.
> > This version is probably limited to 256 colors so make sure you 
> > switch the display.
> > Then we can talk later about the relavance of 'C' and 'Assembler'
> > Regards and rosuccess
> > Justin
> >
> > ---- Kevin Lawton [e-mail] wrote:
> > > Yeah, okay, but . . .
> > > With C being a 'higher level' language than assembler it will always be
> > > easier for a group of humans to work on a project in. You could
> >
> > take this
> > > further and use something like Java, though not for an
> >
> > op-system kernel as
> > > Java programs need something below them to run the run-time
> >
> > virtual machine.
> > > C is a good language for writing an op system in because that
> >
> > is why it was
> > > designed (by Kerningham and Ritchie - their book on C is still
> >
> > the best work
> > > of its kind). It was created to write the Unix op system in and the
> > > combination of high and low-level features will always make it ideal for
> > > such a task. In terms of generating nice tight machine code
> >
> > when compiled, C
> > > is probably the best high-level language in this respect.
> > > Modern computers are so enormously powerful that most projects
> >
> > feel that it
> > > is unnecessary to use assembler for the extreme efficiency it
> >
> > offers - C is
> > > more than 'good enough'. But, when projects ARE written for
> >
> > modern machines
> > > using assembler we then start to see just how fast things can
> >
> > go. We might
> > > feel that the 'average' PC is plenty fast enough performing
> >
> > day-to-day tasks
> > > with an op system written in C and applications in Java or VB, and it
> > > probably is, but give it a chance to run software written in
> >
> > good assembler
> > > and you can get quite a surprise. Even if we think we can spare
> >
> > it, those
> > > high-level language programs (incl op system) can perform
> >
> > nothing like the
> > > blistering performance you can get from really good assembler
> >
> > code. You also
> > > find that because assembler programming is so 'direct' then the
> >
> > resulting
> > > machine code tends to be far more compact than that generated from other
> > > languages. Smaller programs (op systems included) use less room on disk,
> > > load faster into a smaller memory space and tend to have
> >
> > shorter execution
> > > paths.
> > > It is all fine and dandy that ReactOS will be a working 'clone'
> >
> > of Windows
> > > but Windows is often criticised for being large and slow. What
> >
> > if ReactOS
> > > could achieve full Windows compatibility while being much
> >
> > smaller and faster
> > > ?
> > > Kevin.
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: [e-mail]
> > > > [mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of Murphy, Ged
> > > > (Bolton)
> > > > Sent: 18 October 2005 08:13
> > > > To: 'ReactOS General List'
> > > > Subject: RE: [ros-general] New to ReactOS
> > > >
> > > > [e-mail] wrote:
> > > > > Who uses assembler for serious anything these days?
> > > >
> > > > <snip>
> > > > > If anybody from ros is really in need of assembler then
> > > > something is sus.
> > > >
> > > > Considering you can't build ROS without an assembler, something
> > > > must be sus.
> > > > If you look at the ReactOS kernel, you will find many asm files.
> > > > My point was that the vast majority is written in C and is generally
> > > > preferred.
> > > >
> > > > Ged.
> > > > The information contained in this message or any of its
> > > > attachments is confidential and is intended for the exclusive
> > > > use of the addressee. The information may also be legally
> > > > privileged. The views expressed may not be company policy,
> > > > but the personal views of the originator. If you are not the
> > > > addressee, any disclosure, reproduction, distribution or other
> > > > dissemination or use of this communication is strictly prohibited.
> > > > If you have received this message in error, please contact
> > > > [e-mail]
> > > > mailto:[e-mail] and then delete this message.
> > > >
> > > > Exide Technologies is an industrial and transportation battery
> > > > producer and recycler with operations in 89 countries.
> > > > Further information can be found at www.exide.com
> > > >
> > > > ros-general mailing list
> > > > [e-mail]
> > > > http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-general
> > >
> > > ros-general mailing list
> > > [e-mail]
> > > http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-general
>
> ros-general mailing list
> [e-mail]
> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-general

[Kevin Lawton]

Me too, Justin. 
After more than a couple of decades in 'software development' I find I can become somewhat jaded by 'the same old thing', but there's still a few challenges to be met if we look for them.  ;-)  
I guess I've always been 'turned on' by good engineering - novel and effective solutions to creating anything, whether it be electrical mechanical or software. Like a suspension bridge, or a large building which doesn't fall over in an earthquake, or a space rocket which can actually carry more than enough fuel to reach orbit, or a steam locomotive which can manage 25% efficiency, or well-written software. I think there is an enormous gulf between 'hacking code' and 'software engineering'. 
I also think that any opportunity to show Microsoft 'how it should be done' is to be welcomed. 
Maybe I need to subscribe to ros-theorising or ros-soapbox !     lol   
Keep right on meeting those challenges - there's life in us old dogs yet ! 
Kevin.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [e-mail] [mailto:[e-mail]]
> Sent: 20 October 2005 05:07
> To: ReactOS General List
> Cc: Kevin Lawton
> Subject: RE: [ros-general] New to ReactOS
>
> Right on Kevin, right on !!
> I intuitively know you aren't trying to win. I like your style.
> People of my generation don't like to be patronised, just challenged.
> I have to admit I am not a spring chicken, just old and wasting away.
> People like you give me that added burst of life. 
> Please let me thank you. Lets make ReactOS something to boast about.
> It makes me feel so good to have found ros-general.
> Here the old and the young can come together with one mind.
>
> But a few (little) adjustments could be helpful.
> One such adjustment would be a doorway to MinGW-Msys and to Earnie Boyd.
> He is the guy to help all those "C" advocates.
> The doorway should be named ros-programming.
> The other should be named ros-users.
> Perhaps another for ros-abusers (just kidding).
>
> Cheers and rosuccess
>
> Justin
> ---- Kevin Lawton [e-mail] wrote:
> > Hey, Justin, I wasn't trying to 'win' - didn't want to sound
>
> better or anything.
> > I just wanted to inject a point or two into the discussion. 
> > Anyway, thanks - the link is interesting. 
> > I still think the same principle applies - use a high-level
>
> language where you want the emphasis on ease of development and 
> maintenance but use a low-level language where speed and 
> efficiency are paramount. What I do think is interesting is where 
> a low-level language, like assembler, is used to produce small 
> fast software - far more than strictly 'necessary' - resulting in 
> high efficiency and an unexpected turn of speed. Like, for 
> example, the concept of a GUI-based op system which will fit on a 
> floppy disk. In other forms of engineering, electrical or 
> mechanical for example, efficiency is highly desirable for 
> economy in both energy consumption and materials usage. Software 
> engineering doesn't currently seem to be following similar principles.
> > What I think would be really cool would be if ReactOS was not
>
> just a Windows replacement, but a faster and more efficient 
> Windows replacement.
> > Kevin.
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: [e-mail] [mailto:[e-mail]]
> > > Sent: 18 October 2005 14:36
> > > To: ReactOS General List
> > > Cc: Kevin Lawton
> > > Subject: RE: [ros-general] New to ReactOS
> > >
> > > Ok Kevin, you win.
> > > How can I begin to answer you?
> > > Except to say, take a look at where tha AIM group: Apple IBM and 
> > > Motorola are going.
> > > It looks like Wintel group Microsoft and Intel will not be far 
> > > behind either.
> > >
> > > So please take a look at what has been thrown away in 1996.
> > >
> > > www.cs.uta.fi/kurssit/OPOK/smalltalk/Smalltalk%20Express/
> > >
> > > Please download it. It's only about 3 MB compressed (in two files).
> > > It is free non commercial and will do absolutley no damage I
>
> promise you.
> > > Because it was designed for DOS it will call the Windows API only 
> > > very rarely.
> > > In fact I ran  it in safe mode and I could access the hard disk, 
> > > which is supposed to be impossible to do.
> > > This version is probably limited to 256 colors so make sure you 
> > > switch the display.
> > > Then we can talk later about the relavance of 'C' and 'Assembler'
> > > Regards and rosuccess
> > > Justin
> > >
> > > ---- Kevin Lawton [e-mail] wrote:
> > > > Yeah, okay, but . . .
> > > > With C being a 'higher level' language than assembler it
>
> will always be
> > > > easier for a group of humans to work on a project in. You could
> > >
> > > take this
> > > > further and use something like Java, though not for an
> > >
> > > op-system kernel as
> > > > Java programs need something below them to run the run-time
> > >
> > > virtual machine.
> > > > C is a good language for writing an op system in because that
> > >
> > > is why it was
> > > > designed (by Kerningham and Ritchie - their book on C is still
> > >
> > > the best work
> > > > of its kind). It was created to write the Unix op system in and the
> > > > combination of high and low-level features will always make
>
> it ideal for
> > > > such a task. In terms of generating nice tight machine code
> > >
> > > when compiled, C
> > > > is probably the best high-level language in this respect.
> > > > Modern computers are so enormously powerful that most projects
> > >
> > > feel that it
> > > > is unnecessary to use assembler for the extreme efficiency it
> > >
> > > offers - C is
> > > > more than 'good enough'. But, when projects ARE written for
> > >
> > > modern machines
> > > > using assembler we then start to see just how fast things can
> > >
> > > go. We might
> > > > feel that the 'average' PC is plenty fast enough performing
> > >
> > > day-to-day tasks
> > > > with an op system written in C and applications in Java or
>
> VB, and it
> > > > probably is, but give it a chance to run software written in
> > >
> > > good assembler
> > > > and you can get quite a surprise. Even if we think we can spare
> > >
> > > it, those
> > > > high-level language programs (incl op system) can perform
> > >
> > > nothing like the
> > > > blistering performance you can get from really good assembler
> > >
> > > code. You also
> > > > find that because assembler programming is so 'direct' then the
> > >
> > > resulting
> > > > machine code tends to be far more compact than that
>
> generated from other
> > > > languages. Smaller programs (op systems included) use less
>
> room on disk,
> > > > load faster into a smaller memory space and tend to have
> > >
> > > shorter execution
> > > > paths.
> > > > It is all fine and dandy that ReactOS will be a working 'clone'
> > >
> > > of Windows
> > > > but Windows is often criticised for being large and slow. What
> > >
> > > if ReactOS
> > > > could achieve full Windows compatibility while being much
> > >
> > > smaller and faster
> > > > ?
> > > > Kevin.
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: [e-mail]
> > > > > [mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of Murphy, Ged
> > > > > (Bolton)
> > > > > Sent: 18 October 2005 08:13
> > > > > To: 'ReactOS General List'
> > > > > Subject: RE: [ros-general] New to ReactOS
> > > > >
> > > > > [e-mail] wrote:
> > > > > > Who uses assembler for serious anything these days?
> > > > >
> > > > > <snip>
> > > > > > If anybody from ros is really in need of assembler then
> > > > > something is sus.
> > > > >
> > > > > Considering you can't build ROS without an assembler, something
> > > > > must be sus.
> > > > > If you look at the ReactOS kernel, you will find many asm files.
> > > > > My point was that the vast majority is written in C and
>
> is generally
> > > > > preferred.
> > > > >
> > > > > Ged.
> > > > > The information contained in this message or any of its
> > > > > attachments is confidential and is intended for the exclusive
> > > > > use of the addressee. The information may also be legally
> > > > > privileged. The views expressed may not be company policy,
> > > > > but the personal views of the originator. If you are not the
> > > > > addressee, any disclosure, reproduction, distribution or other
> > > > > dissemination or use of this communication is strictly prohibited.
> > > > > If you have received this message in error, please contact
> > > > > [e-mail]
> > > > > mailto:[e-mail] and then delete this message.
> > > > >
> > > > > Exide Technologies is an industrial and transportation battery
> > > > > producer and recycler with operations in 89 countries.
> > > > > Further information can be found at www.exide.com
> > > > >
> > > > > ros-general mailing list
> > > > > [e-mail]
> > > > > http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-general
> > > >
> > > > ros-general mailing list
> > > > [e-mail]
> > > > http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-general
> >
> > ros-general mailing list
> > [e-mail]
> > http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-general