Re: ReactOS UI Team - Concept, Plan, and: help wanted

[mf]

Mikko Tikkanen wrote:
> Aye. I'm still in. Just have been a tad busy. I've been watching my
> mail but that's about it but since I started my school few weeks ago I
> have more time on my hands. At least when project deadlines aren't
> pushing too close.

Great.
> The school also has new advantages; since I'm studying UI/usability
> design I could do some actual user testing, with live subjects. I
> could also get artists involved as the schools also has art teaching.

Be careful not to make ReactOS into some kind of guinea pig for
eccentric design though. One of the most important goals for ReactOS,
interface-wise, is not requiring any retraining for people switching
from Windows.

Max Well wrote:
> As you said, there are already two UI designer, so I would like to
> redesign the setup.

I believe the setup is already being UI-ified. Contact Alex Ionescu for
details. See also:
http://www.reactos.org/wiki/index.php/Alex_Ionescu/RosGooeySetup

Richard Campbell wrote:
> I don't think i quite understand this...Are you saying we should develop
> a new UI?  I don't think so. The Windows UI is standard, and several
> million users KNOW this UI.  Our UI should be kept as close as possible
> to windows without breaking any laws.

I honestly don't know where you got this idea from, but we will be
staying close to the Windows feel, as I explained above.

[e-mail] wrote:
> Richard is correct.
> I understand the statement below as a recipe for suicide.
> If you are having trouble getting skills on the ground now, this will

make sure you never do.
> Being SLAPP'ed by a multibillion business is no picnic.

What's this, chinese whispering? What exactly did I say we're going to
do which is going to make msft get interested in SLAPPing us? I'm
calling for help to improve our UI which currently is somewhere in the
pre-win95 age.

Martin Fuchs wrote:
> Yes, that's the best way: Write down what you intend to implement
> exactly on the Wiki or in Bugzilla. I will help in explorer, winefile
> and ibrowser as far as possible. But my available time is limited.
> Branching the code is possible, if you want to change explorer
> completely. But I would prefer to maintain only one code base. The
> already existing "lean-explorer" branch may be enough.  ;-)

First off, PLEASE reply ONLY in ros-general. My initial mail states:
> Please reply to this mail only on the general list or to me in person
> (if you're not on the list and only get digests), it is only
> crossposted in ros-dev to get a wider range of attention.

Keeping track of conversation on multiple lists is only confusing. Thanks.
As for your suggestion, I'd like to say that I personally dislike
indirect communication like the wiki or bugzilla. Stuff gets done in a
fraction of the time if you can reach a quick concensus by means of word
exchange. I don't know why you seem to avoid IRC, but mailing list seems
alright with me as well. Seeing that you're as "in charge" of the look
of explorer as you currently are, maybe it would be beneficial if you
would join the UI Team yourself? Just a suggestion :).

Cheers,

mf.

[Richard Campbell]

1)  Well, we should be aiming for a windows 2000 look and feel.  UI 
Enhancements should be a 3rd party addon, not bundled with ROS, or at 
least not the default.  Changing the way a proven UI works is a recipe 
for disaster.

mf wrote:
> Mikko Tikkanen wrote:
> > Aye. I'm still in. Just have been a tad busy. I've been watching my
> > mail but that's about it but since I started my school few weeks ago I
> > have more time on my hands. At least when project deadlines aren't
> > pushing too close.
>
> Great.
> > The school also has new advantages; since I'm studying UI/usability
> > design I could do some actual user testing, with live subjects. I
> > could also get artists involved as the schools also has art teaching.
>
> Be careful not to make ReactOS into some kind of guinea pig for
> eccentric design though. One of the most important goals for ReactOS,
> interface-wise, is not requiring any retraining for people switching
> from Windows.
>
> Max Well wrote:
> > As you said, there are already two UI designer, so I would like to
> > redesign the setup.
>
> I believe the setup is already being UI-ified. Contact Alex Ionescu for
> details. See also:
> http://www.reactos.org/wiki/index.php/Alex_Ionescu/RosGooeySetup
>
> Richard Campbell wrote:
> > I don't think i quite understand this...Are you saying we should develop
> > a new UI?  I don't think so. The Windows UI is standard, and several
> > million users KNOW this UI.  Our UI should be kept as close as possible
> > to windows without breaking any laws.
>
> I honestly don't know where you got this idea from, but we will be
> staying close to the Windows feel, as I explained above.
>
> [e-mail] wrote:
> > Richard is correct.
> > I understand the statement below as a recipe for suicide.
> > If you are having trouble getting skills on the ground now, this will
>
> make sure you never do.
> > Being SLAPP'ed by a multibillion business is no picnic.
>
> What's this, chinese whispering? What exactly did I say we're going to
> do which is going to make msft get interested in SLAPPing us? I'm
> calling for help to improve our UI which currently is somewhere in the
> pre-win95 age.
>
> Martin Fuchs wrote:
> > Yes, that's the best way: Write down what you intend to implement
> > exactly on the Wiki or in Bugzilla. I will help in explorer, winefile
> > and ibrowser as far as possible. But my available time is limited.
> > Branching the code is possible, if you want to change explorer
> > completely. But I would prefer to maintain only one code base. The
> > already existing "lean-explorer" branch may be enough.  ;-)
>
> First off, PLEASE reply ONLY in ros-general. My initial mail states:
> > Please reply to this mail only on the general list or to me in person
> > (if you're not on the list and only get digests), it is only
> > crossposted in ros-dev to get a wider range of attention.
>
> Keeping track of conversation on multiple lists is only confusing. 
> Thanks.
> As for your suggestion, I'd like to say that I personally dislike
> indirect communication like the wiki or bugzilla. Stuff gets done in a
> fraction of the time if you can reach a quick concensus by means of word
> exchange. I don't know why you seem to avoid IRC, but mailing list seems
> alright with me as well. Seeing that you're as "in charge" of the look
> of explorer as you currently are, maybe it would be beneficial if you
> would join the UI Team yourself? Just a suggestion :).
>
> Cheers,
>
> mf.
>
> ros-general mailing list
> [e-mail]
> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-general

[Emanuele Aliberti]

Richard Campbell wrote:
> Well, we should be aiming for a windows 2000 look and feel.  UI
>
> Enhancements should be a 3rd party addon, not bundled with ROS, or at 
> least not the default.  Changing the way a proven UI works is a recipe 
> for disaster.

I agree.

[Mikko Tikkanen]

Quick post before school.

2005/10/13, mf [e-mail]:
> Mikko Tikkanen wrote:
> > The school also has new advantages; since I'm studying UI/usability
> > design I could do some actual user testing, with live subjects. I
> > could also get artists involved as the schools also has art teaching.
>
> Be careful not to make ReactOS into some kind of guinea pig for
> eccentric design though. One of the most important goals for ReactOS,
> interface-wise, is not requiring any retraining for people switching
> from Windows.

Erm. As I've stated since the start of whole UI team conversation, I
would like to see ROS aim for classic window look (classic being XP's
classic theme) with few upgrades, like start menu. I've been designing
new way for configuring the OS but I still don't think I like it
enough...
Anyways, as soon as I get my computer table up I start writing some
proper design documents instead of just graphical tests. (Done those
at school) The cardboard - couch environment isn't very healty since I
have to hunch down to write anything...
> exchange. I don't know why you seem to avoid IRC, but mailing list seems
> alright with me as well. Seeing that you're as "in charge" of the look
> of explorer as you currently are, maybe it would be beneficial if you
> would join the UI Team yourself? Just a suggestion :).

Personally I would also like to see you joining the UI team, since the
explorer is a important part of GUI.

-mikko

[mf]

Mikko Tikkanen wrote:
> Quick post before school.

Hi Mikko,

Your phrase about "testing with live subjects" came across as ReactOS 
being something to test out school assignments on, that's where my 
comment about "guinea pig" came from. Excuse me if I misunderstood.

mf.

[Mikko Tikkanen]

2005/10/14, mf [e-mail]:
> Mikko Tikkanen wrote:
> > Quick post before school.
>
> Hi Mikko,
>
> Your phrase about "testing with live subjects" came across as ReactOS
> being something to test out school assignments on, that's where my
> comment about "guinea pig" came from. Excuse me if I misunderstood.
>
> mf.

I merely stated that such testing could be possible. Because that is,
after all, only way to find out how does the shell work.

-mikko

[Martin Fuchs]

On 14.10.2005 08:21:30 Mikko Tikkanen wrote:
> Quick post before school.
> Erm. As I've stated since the start of whole UI team conversation, I
> would like to see ROS aim for classic window look (classic being XP's
> classic theme) with few upgrades, like start menu. I've been designing
> new way for configuring the OS but I still don't think I like it
> enough...

OK, I also prefer the "classic look" of Windows. It's not wasting so much
space on the desktop for window borders and big start menu icons.
What are your ideas to improve the start menu?
I already implemented little gimmicks like the floating start menu windows
and the "program search dialog", which makes possible to search entries
in the "program" start menu folder.
> Anyways, as soon as I get my computer table up I start writing some
> proper design documents instead of just graphical tests. (Done those
> at school) The cardboard - couch environment isn't very healty since I
> have to hunch down to write anything...

Good, we are awaiting your design documents.  :)
> Personally I would also like to see you joining the UI team, since the
> explorer is a important part of GUI.

Who are the "members" of the team - is there some official list?
I think any one can take part in discussions on the mailing list,
and adopt some parts of work.

Regards,

Martin

[Mikko Tikkanen]

2005/10/15, Martin Fuchs [e-mail]:
> On 14.10.2005 08:21:30 Mikko Tikkanen wrote:
> > Quick post before school.
> > Erm. As I've stated since the start of whole UI team conversation, I
> > would like to see ROS aim for classic window look (classic being XP's
> > classic theme) with few upgrades, like start menu. I've been designing
> > new way for configuring the OS but I still don't think I like it
> > enough...
>
> OK, I also prefer the "classic look" of Windows. It's not wasting so much
> space on the desktop for window borders and big start menu icons.
> What are your ideas to improve the start menu?
> I already implemented little gimmicks like the floating start menu windows
> and the "program search dialog", which makes possible to search entries
> in the "program" start menu folder.

There is basic layout I designed a while ago, displaying the search menu & view:
http://www.tpu.fi/~a5mtikka/varasto/guidesign/search.jpg

As the two column start menu seem to create quarrel I created kind of
a hybrid of those two. From top down (- {item name}: {things in the
submenu}):
- Username, Help button
- The list of recent applications used
- My Documents: Recent files, Browse my files
- My Computer: Browse my computer, Printers, Control panel
- Network: Recent, Browse network, My shares, Network settings
- Search: Search, Recent, Advanced
- Run: Run, Recent, Advanced...
- All programs
- Lock and Power off

-mikko

[Ged]

Mikko Tikkanen wrote:
> There is basic layout I designed a while ago, displaying the search menu & view:
> http://www.tpu.fi/~a5mtikka/varasto/guidesign/search.jpg
>
> As the two column start menu seem to create quarrel I created kind of
> a hybrid of those two. From top down (- {item name}: {things in the
> submenu}):

I like it .......... a lot !!!
It's different without straying too far and confusing users.

Ged.

[Martin Fuchs]

On 15.10.2005 01:18:24 Mikko Tikkanen wrote:
> There is basic layout I designed a while ago, displaying the search menu &
>  view:
> http://www.tpu.fi/~a5mtikka/varasto/guidesign/search.jpg

This looks quite good.
I understand this as an proposal for the the ReactOS start menu layout
with activated "XP like" mode. The "classic" mode would look like the
current layout.

You just copied the MS icons into your prototype.
Shouldn't you better use our nice ROS icons?  :)
> As the two column start menu seem to create quarrel I created kind of
> a hybrid of those two. From top down (- {item name}: {things in the
> submenu}):
> Username, Help button
> The list of recent applications used
> My Documents: Recent files, Browse my files
> My Computer: Browse my computer, Printers, Control panel
> Network: Recent, Browse network, My shares, Network settings
> Search: Search, Recent, Advanced
> Run: Run, Recent, Advanced...
> All programs
> Lock and Power off

The "Lock" button would activate the screen saver, which may be configured
to ask for a password? What about adding a "Logoff" button?

Regards,

Martin

[Mikko Tikkanen]

2005/10/15, Martin Fuchs [e-mail]:
> On 15.10.2005 01:18:24 Mikko Tikkanen wrote:
> > There is basic layout I designed a while ago, displaying the search menu &
> >  view:
> > http://www.tpu.fi/~a5mtikka/varasto/guidesign/search.jpg
>
> This looks quite good.
> I understand this as an proposal for the the ReactOS start menu layout
> with activated "XP like" mode. The "classic" mode would look like the
> current layout.
>
> You just copied the MS icons into your prototype.
> Shouldn't you better use our nice ROS icons?  :)
> > As the two column start menu seem to create quarrel I created kind of
> > a hybrid of those two. From top down (- {item name}: {things in the
> > submenu}):
> > Username, Help button
> > The list of recent applications used
> > My Documents: Recent files, Browse my files
> > My Computer: Browse my computer, Printers, Control panel
> > Network: Recent, Browse network, My shares, Network settings
> > Search: Search, Recent, Advanced
> > Run: Run, Recent, Advanced...
> > All programs
> > Lock and Power off
>
> The "Lock" button would activate the screen saver, which may be configured
> to ask for a password? What about adding a "Logoff" button?
>
> Regards,
> Martin

I copied the icons because they are quickly accessible. That mockup is
not intended to show 1:1 reflection about ROS UI as it was created
merely to show the constuction and functionality of the start menu.

As user security is a big issue nowdays, the lock button has higher
priority than logoff, user can find the logoff function from the
shutdown menu as well as the basic function is the same; you press
shutdown when you leave from the computer, no matter if you actually
shut it down or just log off.

-mikko

[Martin Fuchs]

On 14.10.2005 08:44:43 mf wrote:
> Be careful not to make ReactOS into some kind of guinea pig for
> eccentric design though. One of the most important goals for ReactOS,
> interface-wise, is not requiring any retraining for people switching
> from Windows.

Correct. Windows is such well-known, that a different completely user
interface would only distract most people.

[citates out of the initial post]
> So getting down to business. The UI team is recruiting two kinds of people.

[...]
> The plan(tm) to kickstart the UI team is as follows:
> Our first goal will be to make the surface experience of ReactOS familiar.
> Surface in this context means the things a user will see during and after
> bootup. This mainly involves modifying explorer;

What exactly do you want to modify?
> to display a consistent and familiar start menu

OK - i started with inserting a few shortcuts into the start menu some days ago.
Sure, there are still missing subfolders and more entries...
> and to show a friendly explorer when My Computer or the Explore link
> is opened. This means making all the surface icons consistent (my task),

Aehm - what do you mean with "friendly"?  ;-)
> There is no plan past this first task, because I cannot predict how small or
> big the team is going to be, what feedback we are going to get, and how fast
> things will move.

As said before: You - the coordinator should make a plan, lead the discussion
about what has to be done, and then make a list of the working points.
Then any one can choose some of them, and design/implement them.
That's what I would like to see in the Wiki, Bugzilla. I think this is the best
way someone can pick up something, assign it to himself, and mark it
as at the end.

Regards,

Martin