Good god...
"First off, judge yourself. Are you an experienced graphics designer/artist with extensive icon experience? Have you ever made icons included in other projects, such as at your day job, an open source project, or similar? If you answered "no" to ANY of these questions, please do not attempt to submit icons. Save yourself humiliation, and save me the difficult task of turning you down. It's not because I want to be mean, honestly. If you answered "yes" to all of the above questions, please read on."
Is it just me or do anyone else get a _tad_ arrogant image from that? This attitude has been a major setback, from the start, on my side and it's starting to get under my skin again.
First of all, surely ROS isn't professional project, if it would be it would have real funding etc. Besides, open source projects seldom are for professionals only. In my point of view any kind of help would be appreciated, but it seems that now only professionals can help.
Well, I think it's time to open up a bit. mf: Last time, when I was about to lose it, you persistently you went on (in forums and in IRC) how there is no "magical rules" and i.e. on icon design and only rules applying are recognition and color use. True; Recognition plays a cruicial role and it can be aided with proper color use. False; There are other rules that need to be considered, these are no less "magical" than say proper color use.
Well, for example, lets see your trashcan design: http://www.mufunyo.net/reactos/trashcan.png http://www.mufunyo.net/reactos/trashcan2.png
Now, can you tell me what's wrong with that desing? And in this case I'm not referring to colors, shapes or anything like that...
-mikko
On Sat, 15 Oct 2005, Mikko Tikkanen wrote:
"First off, judge yourself. Are you an experienced graphics designer/artist with extensive icon experience? Have you ever made icons included in other projects, such as at your day job, an open source project, or similar? If you answered "no" to ANY of these questions, please do not attempt to submit icons. Save yourself humiliation, and save me the difficult task of turning you down. It's not because I want to be mean, honestly. If you answered "yes" to all of the above questions, please read on."
First of all, surely ROS isn't professional project, if it would be it would have real funding etc. Besides, open source projects seldom are for professionals only. In my point of view any kind of help would be appreciated, but it seems that now only professionals can help.
You don't have to be professional to be experienced and capable. I think I could do a decent job if I actually thought of doing it, but I don't think anyone here would like my style of eye candy (think early MacOS), nor would it be appropriate for a Windows clone, so I decided it would not be worth your while for me to contribute.
-uso.
Mikko Tikkanen wrote:
Now, can you tell me what's wrong with that desing?
1. the colors 2. the shapes
And in this case I'm not referring to colors, shapes or anything like that...
ah, darn. How about "they are ugly"? Oh well, I'll reply with a counterexample:
http://www.fosk.it/mart/index.php/Graphics
A friend and schoolmate of mine makes them (nope, he's not the guy on the front page). Amazing icon skills IMHO, he totally pwns Everaldo and he has only been doing icon art for a year or so. He's busy with the undergrad thesis right now, so he cannot currently work on them. Judge by yourselves
Mikko,
You are on the very edge of making me feel VERY undervalued and misunderstood. I wrote this article because there are simply TOO_MANY_PEOPLE that *THINK* they can make icons and walk around with a big fat question mark printed on their face when I try to explain why something thrown together in MSPAINT.EXE in 10 seconds is not worth ReactOS' time. You are not the one dealing with these people. And if my simple wish to have a consistent look is arrogance, so be it. YOU go make those goddamn icons and deal with these people, because quite frankly, I am getting pretty pissed off at the fact that there are so many steermen on shore here. It's so crowded, I think you might need to take turns at the helm if you went on board.
Sincerely, mf.
2005/10/16, mf mf@mufunyo.net:
Mikko,
You are on the very edge of making me feel VERY undervalued and misunderstood. I wrote this article because there are simply TOO_MANY_PEOPLE that *THINK* they can make icons and walk around with a big fat question mark printed on their face when I try to explain why something thrown together in MSPAINT.EXE in 10 seconds is not worth ReactOS' time. You are not the one dealing with these people. And if my simple wish to have a consistent look is arrogance, so be it. YOU go make those goddamn icons and deal with these people, because quite frankly, I am getting pretty pissed off at the fact that there are so many steermen on shore here. It's so crowded, I think you might need to take turns at the helm if you went on board.
Sincerely, mf.
Well, quite frankly, you could do that a WHOLE lot nicer way. If you have to state publicly that if you are not professional stay away or get bashed then you are heading the wrong way. You could have wrote simple instructions for the people wanting to help, instead you wrote how good you are, how much you have done and how you are going to bash anyone who tries to submit anything. No matter how I watch that it just isn't constructive. You could have proposed something like icon submission board where certain people could just vote if they like certain icon or not, ergo making your life easier, but again you didn't.. You just decided to bash the people who are TRYING to help.
Now, on to the trashcan: No, I am not talking about looks. I think they look ok for now. To be more on the point, that is the same exact mistake Apple did while ago. (Yes, they make mistakes) The problem here lies in psychology; The trashcan displays an state of immediate explosion even though single text document would be placed in it, so natural response would be to empty the trash hence disabling the very function of trash can: undo. Plus, it changes the single step function (delete) to two step function (delete, empty trash).
-mikko
Mikko Tikkanen wrote:
Well, quite frankly, you could do that a WHOLE lot nicer way. If you have to state publicly that if you are not professional stay away or get bashed then you are heading the wrong way. You could have wrote simple instructions for the people wanting to help, instead you wrote how good you are, how much you have done and how you are going to bash anyone who tries to submit anything. No matter how I watch that it just isn't constructive. You could have proposed something like icon submission board where certain people could just vote if they like certain icon or not, ergo making your life easier, but again you didn't.. You just decided to bash the people who are TRYING to help.
I don't know if it's the language barrier or anything else, but you seem to WANT to interpret my text incorrectly. Anyone who has ever published an iconset on wincustomize or whatever is good enough. It is just that you need to have SOME kind of experience, because a lot of people are going like "icons, heck that must be easy-- I can whip up something in Photoshop in 5 minutes!", with no prior knowhow. You seem to think the people I try to explain to in a friendly manner that their effort is best invested elsewhere are the people that have something useful to give. No, the ones that have something useful to give, I have outlined details and guidelines for. I don't know if "being nice" in finnish means "kissing butt", but in England and in my country, it doesn't. I've written it as friendly as I could while still getting my point across. Interpret it ANY damn way you want, but it is not "writing how good I am, how much I have done and how I am going to bash anyone that tries to submit anything". No, I'm not that good, but I do have experience. No, I haven't done much, but at least I've taken on a responsibility to finish a job. And again, I won't bash anyone, I will simply not accept stuff that is not made by someone who doesn't know what they are doing, because that way ReactOS will come in 5 flavors, apple, cranberry, nuts, licorice and chocolate, and all mixed together. I have yet to see a single icon submission which is even CLOSE to the existing new icons. One that isn't either some barfup of a $7 shareware icon editor, or one that is some XP lookalike. And another thing; tell me why icons are so important. Tell me why we should start accepting everyone and their dog's creations. Is it an immediate need? NO. People trying to help are very nice, but just as nice as someone who knows QBasic and starts hacking the kernel. There is a selection process for committers as well, you know. This is going to sound very selfish (though I don't mean it that way): I don't need help at the moment. In my gentle pace of one icon at a time I will get it done, because I started early. There is no hurry whatsoever. It is not that I consider myself oh so great and I want full credit for any icon ever made for ReactOS. I just want something that looks consistent. And for that, you need artists that a) know what they're doing, and b) know the difference between XP and OSX (what, they both contain an X?). If you look on sites like wincustomize and deviantart, there are MORE than enough people that qualify for that, and that doesn't at all mean we need to accept any less. And you know? You seem to have a FAIRLY big mouth for someone that hasn't done jack shit except moan and rant and cause trouble. I suggest you tone down until you have actually DONE anything for this project. As for the trash can, shut up. It is not a finished icon, it is not submitted to SVN, and _we_don't_even_have_such_functionality_in_reactos_. It is the most irrelevant thing you could ever think of coming up with.
mf.
2005/10/16, mf mf@mufunyo.net:
Mikko Tikkanen wrote:
I don't know if it's the language barrier or anything else, but you seem to WANT to interpret my text incorrectly. Anyone who has ever published an iconset on wincustomize or whatever is good enough. It is just that you need to have SOME kind of experience, because a lot of people are going like "icons, heck that must be easy-- I can whip up something in Photoshop in 5 minutes!", with no prior knowhow. You seem to think the people I try to explain to in a friendly manner that their effort is best invested elsewhere are the people that have something useful to give. No, the ones that have something useful to give, I have outlined details and guidelines for. I don't know if "being nice" in finnish means "kissing butt", but in England and in my country, it doesn't. I've written it as friendly as I could while still getting my point across. Interpret it ANY damn way you want, but it is not "writing how good I am, how much I have done and how I am going to bash anyone that tries to submit anything". No, I'm not that good, but I do have experience. No, I haven't done much, but at least I've taken on a responsibility to finish a job. And again, I won't bash anyone, I will simply not accept stuff that is not made by someone who doesn't know what they are doing, because that way ReactOS will come in 5 flavors, apple, cranberry, nuts, licorice and chocolate, and all mixed together. I have yet to see a single icon submission which is even CLOSE to the existing new icons. One that isn't either some barfup of a $7 shareware icon editor, or one that is some XP lookalike. And another thing; tell me why icons are so important. Tell me why we should start accepting everyone and their dog's creations. Is it an immediate need? NO. People trying to help are very nice, but just as nice as someone who knows QBasic and starts hacking the kernel. There is a selection process for committers as well, you know. This is going to sound very selfish (though I don't mean it that way): I don't need help at the moment. In my gentle pace of one icon at a time I will get it done, because I started early. There is no hurry whatsoever. It is not that I consider myself oh so great and I want full credit for any icon ever made for ReactOS. I just want something that looks consistent. And for that, you need artists that a) know what they're doing, and b) know the difference between XP and OSX (what, they both contain an X?). If you look on sites like wincustomize and deviantart, there are MORE than enough people that qualify for that, and that doesn't at all mean we need to accept any less. And you know? You seem to have a FAIRLY big mouth for someone that hasn't done jack shit except moan and rant and cause trouble. I suggest you tone down until you have actually DONE anything for this project. As for the trash can, shut up. It is not a finished icon, it is not submitted to SVN, and _we_don't_even_have_such_functionality_in_reactos_. It is the most irrelevant thing you could ever think of coming up with.
mf.
Like you, I want ROS to be aestethically pleasing to achieve good first impression. I never said that you should accept any slab of pixels submitted by Jerry 5 years. Could you point me to the exact point where I said something about "kissing asses"? I never said anything like that, I simply said that you could write the damn thing in neutral context.
Something like: "Help is accepted. Although, as strive for good first impression, there are certain rules. The icons has to be consistent. Both looks and color, so you basically you need to have the skills to imitate the chosen (realistic) look as closely as possible."
And how can you say that I haven't done anything? I have done some design but as you might know, you don't get good design doesn't just by snapping fingers. Basically I've done some preliminary work, Besides, now it's my first change to actually do something, as you might notice, when the UI team was decided upon I really didn't have time to do jack. My days aren't going to have more hours by bitching about it.
My contribution isn't something clear and concretic which you can measure. My main mission is to consult UI design and, when I have the possibility, to write design documents. Since I am not going to get my back sore by spending 5 hours per day writing an design document on cardboardboxes, there really isn't anything concretic for me to submit. When I get my table done I'll start writing. Until that day, I'm stuck on consult land.
Though I could whip up something in school with Photoshop. Maybe an icon or two?
The trashcan. It is not irrelevant as it simply answers to the question: are there "magic rules in icon design, besides color etc", as you put it. And it says yes, no matter how you look at it.
-mikko
Mikko - maybe you could make up your own guidelines? And I'm sure mf would love to include your best thoughts into the Icon Submission document.
I really don't see any personal in the guidelines, except for that they are kind of strict. But providing example - do you want to commit ugly hacks into the kernel, or get a good patch done (though it requires a little more time usually)?
Please don't take this into personal "mf vs. crappish" fight again. Provide constructive critic, provide ideas...
WBR, Aleksey Bragin.
On Oct 16, 2005, at 3:31 AM, Mikko Tikkanen wrote:
Well, quite frankly, you could do that a WHOLE lot nicer way. If you have to state publicly that if you are not professional stay away or get bashed then you are heading the wrong way. You could have wrote simple instructions for the people wanting to help, instead you wrote how good you are, how much you have done and how you are going to bash anyone who tries to submit anything. No matter how I watch that it just isn't constructive. You could have proposed something like icon submission board where certain people could just vote if they like certain icon or not, ergo making your life easier, but again you didn't.. You just decided to bash the people who are TRYING to help.
Now, on to the trashcan: No, I am not talking about looks. I think they look ok for now. To be more on the point, that is the same exact mistake Apple did while ago. (Yes, they make mistakes) The problem here lies in psychology; The trashcan displays an state of immediate explosion even though single text document would be placed in it, so natural response would be to empty the trash hence disabling the very function of trash can: undo. Plus, it changes the single step function (delete) to two step function (delete, empty trash).
-mikko
ros-general mailing list ros-general@reactos.org http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-general
2005/10/16, Aleksey Bragin aleksey@studiocerebral.com:
Mikko - maybe you could make up your own guidelines? And I'm sure mf would love to include your best thoughts into the Icon Submission document.
I really don't see any personal in the guidelines, except for that they are kind of strict. But providing example - do you want to commit ugly hacks into the kernel, or get a good patch done (though it requires a little more time usually)?
Please don't take this into personal "mf vs. crappish" fight again. Provide constructive critic, provide ideas...
WBR, Aleksey Bragin.
I didn't say there is something wrong in the guidelines. I just said that the tone could be tweaked a bit more nicer.
Though there could be something like colormap so that would-be icon devs would have better idea about the colours of the icons. Both general colours and colours for certain subjects. (Like yellow folders etc.)
-mikko
I say, ditch all the icons and use KDE's Crystal theme :)
Richard
Mikko Tikkanen wrote:
2005/10/16, Aleksey Bragin aleksey@studiocerebral.com:
Mikko - maybe you could make up your own guidelines? And I'm sure mf would love to include your best thoughts into the Icon Submission document.
I really don't see any personal in the guidelines, except for that they are kind of strict. But providing example - do you want to commit ugly hacks into the kernel, or get a good patch done (though it requires a little more time usually)?
Please don't take this into personal "mf vs. crappish" fight again. Provide constructive critic, provide ideas...
WBR, Aleksey Bragin.
I didn't say there is something wrong in the guidelines. I just said that the tone could be tweaked a bit more nicer.
Though there could be something like colormap so that would-be icon devs would have better idea about the colours of the icons. Both general colours and colours for certain subjects. (Like yellow folders etc.)
-mikko
ros-general mailing list ros-general@reactos.org http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-general
2005/10/16, mf mf@mufunyo.net:
Mikko,
You are on the very edge of making me feel VERY undervalued and misunderstood. I wrote this article because there are simply TOO_MANY_PEOPLE that *THINK* they can make icons and walk around with a big fat question mark printed on their face when I try to explain why something thrown together in MSPAINT.EXE in 10 seconds is not worth ReactOS' time. You are not the one dealing with these people. And if my simple wish to have a consistent look is arrogance, so be it. YOU go make those goddamn icons and deal with these people, because quite frankly, I am getting pretty pissed off at the fact that there are so many steermen on shore here. It's so crowded, I think you might need to take turns at the helm if you went on board.
Sincerely, mf.
Forgot the link to the document in question: http://www.reactos.org/wiki/index.php/Icon_Submission
-mikko
MadRat made a very good suggestion regarding icons in the forums:
http://www.reactos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=945
I think this is a very good thing to think about.
Mikko Tikkanen wrote:
Good god...
"First off, judge yourself. Are you an experienced graphics designer/artist with extensive icon experience? Have you ever made icons included in other projects, such as at your day job, an open source project, or similar? If you answered "no" to ANY of these questions, please do not attempt to submit icons. Save yourself humiliation, and save me the difficult task of turning you down. It's not because I want to be mean, honestly. If you answered "yes" to all of the above questions, please read on."
Is it just me or do anyone else get a _tad_ arrogant image from that? This attitude has been a major setback, from the start, on my side and it's starting to get under my skin again.
First of all, surely ROS isn't professional project, if it would be it would have real funding etc. Besides, open source projects seldom are for professionals only. In my point of view any kind of help would be appreciated, but it seems that now only professionals can help.
Well, I think it's time to open up a bit. mf: Last time, when I was about to lose it, you persistently you went on (in forums and in IRC) how there is no "magical rules" and i.e. on icon design and only rules applying are recognition and color use. True; Recognition plays a cruicial role and it can be aided with proper color use. False; There are other rules that need to be considered, these are no less "magical" than say proper color use.
Well, for example, lets see your trashcan design: http://www.mufunyo.net/reactos/trashcan.png http://www.mufunyo.net/reactos/trashcan2.png
Now, can you tell me what's wrong with that desing? And in this case I'm not referring to colors, shapes or anything like that...
-mikko
ros-general mailing list ros-general@reactos.org http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-general
How difficult is it to make an icon? I did one by doing a drawing, scanning it and used PMView (there is an OS/2 and a Win version of it; I have both) to convert it to an icon. :)
-
Aleksey Bragin -
KJKHyperion -
Lyrical Nanoha -
mf -
Mikko Tikkanen -
Richard Campbell -
Sascha Gehrke -
Tom Lee Mullins