Since this is still [ros-general], emphasis on "general":
When I first saw your ros home page I was very impressed with the amount of effort which must have gone into it. There were some errors but tolerable.
Some of the loose references to ros being "buggy" is not helpfull either.
Preserving the Windows "buggyness" is a little too extreme.
I imagined that a lot of money must have secured ros the top system designers.
Amazing that it has all been done on "the smell of and oil rag".
Congratulations !.
I also thought that focussing on some obvious (to us) mistakes would be "nit picking".
However it is now becoming a serious issue, which I feel can be addressed by a few simple "adjustments". Perhaps I'm overreacting.
But, falling back on regulation is throwing good energy after bad.
I don't see that it is necessary.
Is it appropriate to discuss it here?
As for this:
> > Just code, don't talk works fine...when you are a two people project.
I would suggest they retire to minGW-Msys where they can talk code "until the cows come home" and be gently diciplined by Earnie Boyd, its a great list.
Then maybe [ros-general] can stay as it is "general".
Regards and rosuccess
Justin
---- K McI <uniq(a)wwsvr.bounceme.net> wrote:
> Casper Hornstrup wrote:
> > Just code, don't talk works fine...when you are a two people project.
>
> I agree exactly. Governments have constitutions to prevent seizures of
> or misallocation of power, or worse, total inaction do to fear of those
> things. Projects have them to prevent infighting (As I recently noticed
> on another, different project) and the above.
>
> Also, that rule applies best when there are few, well known and trusted
> people in a project and little major outside knowledge or information
> because it assumes everyone is trustworthy and there's no inclination to
> duplicity or malice.
>
> The new site seems to have elevated ROS a new level, most especially now
> that BugZilla is usable, things are definitely moving faster. IMAO, I
> suggest this be done (However), if for nothing else then to hopefully
> preclude the recent vote-fights I've been seeing on the ML.
>
> Thanx,
>
> -uQ
> _______________________________________________
> ros-general mailing list
> ros-general(a)reactos.org
> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-general
Since this is still [ros-general], emphasis on "general":
When I first saw your ros home page I was very impressed with the amount of effort which must have gone into it. There were some errors but tolerable.
Some of the loose references to ros being "buggy" is not helpfull either.
Preserving the Windows "buggyness" is a little too extreme.
I imagined that a lot of money must have secured ros the top system designers.
Amazing that it has all been done on "the smell of and oil rag".
Congratulations !.
I also thought that focussing on some obvious (to us) mistakes would be "nit picking".
However it is now becoming a serious issue, which I feel can be addressed by a few simple "adjustments". Perhaps I'm overreacting.
But, falling back on regulation is throwing good energy after bad.
I don't see that it is necessary.
Is it appropriate to discuss it here?
As for this:
> > Just code, don't talk works fine...when you are a two people project.
I would suggest they retire to minGW-Msys where they can talk code "until the cows come home" and be gently diciplined by Earnie Boyd, its a great list.
Then maybe [ros-general] can stay as it is "general".
Regards and rosuccess
Justin
Justin
---- K McI <uniq(a)wwsvr.bounceme.net> wrote:
> Casper Hornstrup wrote:
> > Just code, don't talk works fine...when you are a two people project.
>
> I agree exactly. Governments have constitutions to prevent seizures of
> or misallocation of power, or worse, total inaction do to fear of those
> things. Projects have them to prevent infighting (As I recently noticed
> on another, different project) and the above.
>
> Also, that rule applies best when there are few, well known and trusted
> people in a project and little major outside knowledge or information
> because it assumes everyone is trustworthy and there's no inclination to
> duplicity or malice.
>
> The new site seems to have elevated ROS a new level, most especially now
> that BugZilla is usable, things are definitely moving faster. IMAO, I
> suggest this be done (However), if for nothing else then to hopefully
> preclude the recent vote-fights I've been seeing on the ML.
>
> Thanx,
>
> -uQ
> _______________________________________________
> ros-general mailing list
> ros-general(a)reactos.org
> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-general
I have just migrated from Windows to Linux, and I am very curious about
ReactOS. I have a couple of newbie questions I was hoping I could get
answered. (I have already checked the developer and user FAQs on the ReactOS
website.)
[1] Is ReactOS built on a Unix core, or is it a new operating sytem from
the ground up?
[2] Can you dual boot with ReactOS and a Linux operating system like
Debian? If you can, is there a place where I can find instructions on how to
do so?
[3] Does an application that runs on Microsoft Windows have to be ported
before it can be run on ReactOS? Can I try installing the program to see how
it works?
Thanks,
Scott Huey
I chime in even less than Richard, but I have to say I
whole heartedly agree with his sentiment.
Perhaps we should take a lesson from the early history
of this project and get back to letting the code talk
for it's self.
Reactos started at with an "emphasis on results -- on
written code rather than endless talk". Famous words,
I'm sure we have all read 100 times, but now seems
like a really good time to remind everyone of them.
Kind regards,
Tim Jobling
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Campbell" <eek2121(a)comcast.net>
To: "ReactOS General List" <ros-general(a)reactos.org>
Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2005 6:49 PM
Subject: [ros-general] Wait a second...
> Now, i've been reading the lists the past few
days...I may chime in from
> time to time with my thoughts here and there, but
for the most part i've
> tried to keep my mouth shut.
>
> Lately however, there has been so much bickering
going on. Every thread
> has been turning into a flame war. Several
developers have left, are
> threatening to leave. I think everyone needs to
CHILL OUT for a moment.
>
> There is so much argument over who should be doing
what, what their
> rights should be, etc. There is no sense in this.
ReactOS is supposed
> to be a fun project, yet suddenly we are caught up
in politics. We
> really need to find a better way of doing this.
Flaming each other,
> getting mad, threatening to, or in some cases
leaving the project is NOT
> the right thing to do. What will end up happening
is that the project
> will slowly fade away into obscurity, and I for one
do not want this to
> happen.
>
> While I don't have any recommendations as to how to
do this, i do think
> that there is a solution, and i will be thinking
about this over the
> next few hours/days.
>
> Regards,
> Richard
___________________________________________________________
Yahoo! Messenger - NEW crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with voicemail http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
My point is we starting getting alot of people, and yes the currenct rules works but not for long.
we are now lest 35 people with commit access. And we need a system how u getting svn
access it must be bit harder getting svn write access.
1. I know we got bugzlla, I wrote Bugzila or mailing list
2. A patch need always be tested and exaim before it been accpect
I can not count how many time this year I got bad patcher from people
and I need test the code, I got some patcher that doing BSOD in some
case. Yes U need always test and examin the patcher from people that
does not have svn write access.
3. Not with the time. we are goving alot. We need start thing about futer
so we do not land up with example over 100 commicters.
Yes it should be good with full name and commit name on
reactos website some where. So public can get know how is
how.
I still stand we need these gudlines I worte.
----- Original Message -----
From: Casper Hornstrup
To: 'ReactOS Development List'
Sent: den 16 October 2005 00:26
Subject: RE: [ros-dev] Gudie Lines for SVN Write access
1.. We have a Patches component in Bugzilla for this.
2.. The committer should do minimal testing even if he didn't create the patch. At least check that ReactOS can still be built and boot.
3.. It is enough to have a well-known committer recommend you get repository access. This is usually the person that has committed most of your patches. I see no reason for this to change since it is simple and works quite well.
I can maintain a page in wiki containing full name and username of each committer if needed.
Btw. Christoph von Wittich has posted to the mailing list several times.
Casper
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: ros-dev-bounces(a)reactos.org [mailto:ros-dev-bounces@reactos.org] On Behalf Of Magnus Olsen
Sent: 16. oktober 2005 00:01
To: ReactOS General List; ReactOS Development List
Subject: [ros-dev] Gudie Lines for SVN Write access
Hi I should love to see some new gudieles
how to get svn access. Today it seam anyone
that provide with a patch that is coder can
getting svn access. But I think we need
start think how we should handle it,
Here is some ideas how it can be
1. A maling list with patch or in Bugzila
I love see a maling list with the patch
2. When people have submit the patch
to us we start examing it see if it any godd
(we are doning that already)
3. To get SVN write access u need lest
provide patch in regual basic under
6 month lest, Then after 6 month the provider
can write to mailing list see if can getting
SVN write access before he grant SVN
write access, the full name and mailing
address must be provided, and we should
have a vote if that provder can getting
SVN write access. no accpect from all
this rules.
Yestday some was granted svn access
his name was not on the mailing list
why he got one, he did not write either
on the mailing list asking for svn access
that why I want see new guide lines how
svn write access handles. so every one
know how he is and why he was granted
to be granted after few patcher are not
accpect in my eys. For we are starting
getting alot with people with svn write
access. And new guide lines must be
create.
BestReagds
Magnus Olsen
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A constitution is a set of rules: do's and don'ts.
Is that what you want?
It is a regulatory mechanism to control behaviour.
It sits between Law ands no Law at all.
It is a formality commonly associated with corporations.
So far I don't see any reason for current behaviour to change.
Your founding principles seem quite sound to me. Why the panic?
Perhaps your current Strategic Plan could be a bit more flexible.
But there are all sorts of sub-forums which can deal with superficial issues.
I suggest a cool down period, and agreement to disagree on particulars only.
But never a compromise on principle: they are either right or wrong.
If a better principle emerges then drop the old one and take on the new.
Otherwise let the opponents prove their point.
Earnie Boyd at MinGW-Msys is a good example of control by principle.
Regards and rosuccess
Justin
---- Casper Hornstrup <ch(a)csh-consult.dk> wrote:
> Just code, don't talk works fine...when you are a two people project.
>
> ReactOS isn't a two people project anymore. We need a fair way to
> settle disagreements and we need a way to remember the decisions
> we make. Fair meaning that everyone has equal opportunity to
> influence the decision. We need a constitution.
>
> Casper
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: ros-general-bounces(a)reactos.org [mailto:ros-general-bounces@reactos.org] On Behalf Of Tim
> > Jobling
> > Sent: 16. oktober 2005 22:55
> > To: ros-general(a)reactos.org
> > Subject: Re: [ros-general] Wait a second...
> >
> > I chime in even less than Richard, but I have to say I
> > whole heartedly agree with his sentiment.
> >
> > Perhaps we should take a lesson from the early history
> > of this project and get back to letting the code talk
> > for it's self.
> >
> > Reactos started at with an "emphasis on results -- on
> > written code rather than endless talk". Famous words,
> > I'm sure we have all read 100 times, but now seems
> > like a really good time to remind everyone of them.
> >
> > Kind regards,
> > Tim Jobling
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> ros-general mailing list
> ros-general(a)reactos.org
> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-general
Sorry, Wesley.
But all Maxims (an adage is merely that) of behaviour, good or bad, are unreliable. They are mostly to be found on desk calendars or on fridge doors.
I call them Fridge Magnetisms.
Whatsmore they can never be taken as Law; they actually contradict the term Law.
Such adages can, under certain conditions, even be utter nonsense like:
WYSIWYG, "The best way to predict the future is to invent it", "Power comes from the barrel of a gun", "suck it and See".
Or be quite sensible like: Keep It Sweet and Simple", "what goes up must come down".
However I do agree that delivering something to argue over is better than empty theory. So please keep making your point.
Both sense and nonsense are necessary (necessety ~ law) part of our human makeup.
They must live together: but in two houses with a tall fence between.
Why not then, create two categories of ros-general according to the law of:
Theory and
Practice.
Perhaps it already exists?
An old man like me does not want to spend the rest of his life arguing with the young, but merely be nearby to lend a bit of advice now and again (behind a tall fence).
For what it is worth.
Regards and rosucceed
Justin
---- Wesley Parish <wes.parish(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote:
> Remember that adage of the Free and Open Source community? "Code is Law"?
>
> Meaning that arguing's not anything worth near as much as a good file of code.
>
> Just my 0.02c (inflation - it's obvious ;)
>
> Wesley Parish
>
> On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 10:03, TwoTailedFox wrote:
> > I had exactly the same thought, Tim.
> >
> > Maybe that should be the 'ReactOS Motto'?
> >
> > On 10/16/05, Tim Jobling <tjob800(a)yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> > > I chime in even less than Richard, but I have to say I
> > > whole heartedly agree with his sentiment.
> > >
> > > Perhaps we should take a lesson from the early history
> > > of this project and get back to letting the code talk
> > > for it's self.
> > >
> > > Reactos started at with an "emphasis on results -- on
> > > written code rather than endless talk". Famous words,
> > > I'm sure we have all read 100 times, but now seems
> > > like a really good time to remind everyone of them.
> > >
> > > Kind regards,
> > > Tim Jobling
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Richard Campbell" <eek2121(a)comcast.net>
> > > To: "ReactOS General List" <ros-general(a)reactos.org>
> > > Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2005 6:49 PM
> > > Subject: [ros-general] Wait a second...
> > >
> > > > Now, i've been reading the lists the past few
> > >
> > > days...I may chime in from
> > >
> > > > time to time with my thoughts here and there, but
> > >
> > > for the most part i've
> > >
> > > > tried to keep my mouth shut.
> > > >
> > > > Lately however, there has been so much bickering
> > >
> > > going on. Every thread
> > >
> > > > has been turning into a flame war. Several
> > >
> > > developers have left, are
> > >
> > > > threatening to leave. I think everyone needs to
> > >
> > > CHILL OUT for a moment.
> > >
> > > > There is so much argument over who should be doing
> > >
> > > what, what their
> > >
> > > > rights should be, etc. There is no sense in this.
> > >
> > > ReactOS is supposed
> > >
> > > > to be a fun project, yet suddenly we are caught up
> > >
> > > in politics. We
> > >
> > > > really need to find a better way of doing this.
> > >
> > > Flaming each other,
> > >
> > > > getting mad, threatening to, or in some cases
> > >
> > > leaving the project is NOT
> > >
> > > > the right thing to do. What will end up happening
> > >
> > > is that the project
> > >
> > > > will slowly fade away into obscurity, and I for one
> > >
> > > do not want this to
> > >
> > > > happen.
> > > >
> > > > While I don't have any recommendations as to how to
> > >
> > > do this, i do think
> > >
> > > > that there is a solution, and i will be thinking
> > >
> > > about this over the
> > >
> > > > next few hours/days.
> > > >
> > > > Regards,
> > > > Richard
> > >
> > > ___________________________________________________________
> > > Yahoo! Messenger - NEW crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with
> > > voicemail http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > ros-general mailing list
> > > ros-general(a)reactos.org
> > > http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-general
> >
> > --
> > "I had a handle on life, but then it broke"
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > ros-general mailing list
> > ros-general(a)reactos.org
> > http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-general
>
> --
> Clinersterton beademung, with all of love - RIP James Blish
> -----
> Mau e ki, he aha te mea nui?
> You ask, what is the most important thing?
> Maku e ki, he tangata, he tangata, he tangata.
> I reply, it is people, it is people, it is people.
> _______________________________________________
> ros-general mailing list
> ros-general(a)reactos.org
> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-general
I like them.
Wonder if he'd be interested in doing a set for us?
-----Original Message-----
From: KJKHyperion [mailto:hackbunny@reactos.com]
Sent: 15 October 2005 22:37
To: ReactOS General List
Subject: Re: [ros-general] Icon submission
ah, darn. How about "they are ugly"? Oh well, I'll reply with a
counterexample:
<http://www.fosk.it/mart/index.php/Graphics>
A friend and schoolmate of mine makes them (nope, he's not the guy on
the front page). Amazing icon skills IMHO, he totally pwns Everaldo and
he has only been doing icon art for a year or so. He's busy with the
undergrad thesis right now, so he cannot currently work on them. Judge
by yourselves
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Hi,
I have read a bit of your homepage and a bit of the mailinglists.
Some people complained about the quite "ugly" GUI. Here my suggestion: Do not
put your energy in improving the GUI for ReactOS. It would be nice when
ReactOS will run on slow and older machines, too. But a ReactOS-Distro could
include KDE (or GNOME) as default GUI. There will be a KDE- and a
GNOME-version for Windows in a year or so. Hence it will also run on ReactOS
(at least theoratically). So people who like to have a marvelous looking
desktop enviroment can use KDE or GNOME. Besides there will be dozens of
usefull application (just think of Kate, K3B, Kile, AmaroK, Konqueror,
KOffice, KMail, Kontact, ...).
A ReactOS-Distro could, of couse, include all those packages and a
linux-distro-like package manager. It would be great to see mingw-, qt-,
gtk-, wx-, gnome- and kde-dlls. This would make a ReactOS-Distro very thin
and lean because - for instance - every wx-application can link dynamically
against the wx-library and so on.
--
Greetz,
Roland
I must agree with Robert.
Many competent people have tried to make the GUI "all things to all people".
It's a problem which lies at the very foundation of all the popular Open Source platforms, particularly Linux and Windows. I constantly keep reminding myself of that.
My interest in ROS came form the original FreeDOS and so far the ROS team has managed to stay true to freeDOS founding principles.
Above all plug-in replaceability with the core elements of DOS.
Congratualtions so far.
In spite of overwhelming increase in feature demand, beginning with multasking, ROS is keeping up.
What made it easier for me to stick with ROS is the knowledge that, behind the scenes a lot of ground-breaking "core" work is being done by other Open Source groups.
For example: MinGW-Msys.
It is the most impressive so far.
They (if I understand them properly) have stepped back to the very roots of Unix and the Bourne (again) Shell i.e BASH.
>From that stable base they have taken the line that both Windows and Linux and some other proprietry platforms like Apple all rely on "C" at some point.
They too are faceing "Feature and Transaction pressure", but through good planning they are keeping up with ,and in some places overtaking, all of the rich platform giants.
It is really up to the "feature enthusiasts" to take more resonsibilty onto themselves.
That is: rtfm, or do the homework. How often have I forgotten that advice.
Unlike some other open groups, the ROS team is respectful and tolerant, even if they do get a little touchy.
Regards and rosuccess.
Justin
---- "Robert Köpferl" <rob(a)koepferl.de> wrote:
> Sorry, but technically it seems you have no clue.
> This gui stuff is difficult and not as easy as putting gt and k+ togehter.
>
> Think of event handling not just painting. Or why is Ooo still without
> Cocoa UI?
>
> Dmitrij D. Czarkoff wrote:
> > On Monday 17 October 2005 02:01, Mikko Tikkanen wrote:
> >
> >>Except that KDE or GNOME isn't really a Windows GUI nor can it run
> >>Windows software (presuming on the applications you mentioned)...
> >
> >
> > Still this idea could be usefull after some rethinking.
> > ReactOS has its own implementation of win32 apps' GUI. On the other hand, we
> > do have GTK+, Qt and some more crossplatform GUIs implemented on win32
> > platform. So we can pass all the widgets stuff to one of them and drop the
> > windows-native GUI (which is still slow and buggy). This would unify the GUI
> > of the system and make the system more stable while easier configurable. This
> > will let us use any popular X11 environment (or give a choise to user).
> > I think the preferable widget set would be GTK+ (because it's the most widely
> > spread among alternative widget sets and its license is safe) and the
> > preferable workspace would be GNOME (just because it's GTK+-based, popular
> > and actively developed).
> > Technically this approache means makeing all the Windows GUI-related libraries
> > the wrappers to the GTK libraries.
> > I think that such modification would be useful even without switching to some
> > DE or WM from Linux world just because GTK is off and ready, while ReactOS's
> > GUI is slow and buggy.
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > ros-general mailing list
> > ros-general(a)reactos.org
> > http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-general
> _______________________________________________
> ros-general mailing list
> ros-general(a)reactos.org
> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-general
