Reaction project announcement

[François Prunier]

Hi,

I decide to join the mailing list to comment on this announcement and the
way it has been treated. I've been following the development of this project
and had a good hope it will develop into a full mature soon enough.

However the replies of Marius Przybylski and Zachary Gorden showed me that's
far from being the case. Sorry you guys, you may not agree with the guy who
did, but treating someone who's done something for the project with the kind
of responses you had is highly immature and just plain stupid. It only harms
the project and confort the opinion that's it's not a friendly environment
to work in. Wonder why there isn't that many devs maybe?

I have little hope you'll actually understand that or act on it but we'll
see...

Francois Prunier

[Aleksey Bragin]

Dear Francois,

all who is part of our community (those who made a significant or  
insignificant contribution to ReactOS, for example, or those who just  
think they belong to our community) are free to have and express  
their own view on the matter. Our project is all about freedom, and  
freedom of speech would be the first one.

Neither me, nor anyone else have stated any official opinion about  
your project so far, so no reason to do a drama out of nothing.


With the best regards,
Aleksey Bragin.

On Sep 28, 2009, at 4:03 PM, François Prunier wrote:

>   Hi,
>
>  I decide to join the mailing list to comment on this announcement  
>  and the way it has been treated. I've been following the  
>  development of this project and had a good hope it will develop  
>  into a full mature soon enough.
>
>  However the replies of Marius Przybylski and Zachary Gorden showed  
>  me that's far from being the case. Sorry you guys, you may not  
>  agree with the guy who did, but treating someone who's done  
>  something for the project with the kind of responses you had is  
>  highly immature and just plain stupid. It only harms the project  
>  and confort the opinion that's it's not a friendly environment to  
>  work in. Wonder why there isn't that many devs maybe?
>
>  I have little hope you'll actually understand that or act on it but  
>  we'll see...
>
>  Francois Prunier

[François Prunier]

Hi Aleksey,

It's not my project at all (it's from *David Zaragoza)* and I'm related to
this project in any way. My point was just that the responses to David's
announcement were pretty harsh and I felt bad for this guy.

Now, whether or not including Python is good idea, I do *not* know or care
to be honest. I'm not developing for reactos and whatever decision is taken
in the end will be alright with me and I'll respect it.

But when someone makes the effort of trying to add something to the project,
whether good or bad, it should be recognized, and maybe give some direction
to the guy instead of a harsh reply.

Now don't get me wrong, I think most of you are doing a really good job, I'm
just worried some might not be open minded enough sometimes. And at this
stage of the project it's critical to get it going.

Best regards,
Francois Prunier


2009/9/28 Aleksey Bragin <aleksey(a)reactos.org>

>   Dear Francois,
>
>  all who is part of our community (those who made a significant or
>  insignificant contribution to ReactOS, for example, or those who just
>  think they belong to our community) are free to have and express
>  their own view on the matter. Our project is all about freedom, and
>  freedom of speech would be the first one.
>
>  Neither me, nor anyone else have stated any official opinion about
>  your project so far, so no reason to do a drama out of nothing.
>
>
>  With the best regards,
>  Aleksey Bragin.
>
>  On Sep 28, 2009, at 4:03 PM, François Prunier wrote:
>
> >   Hi,
> >
> >  I decide to join the mailing list to comment on this announcement
> >  and the way it has been treated. I've been following the
> >  development of this project and had a good hope it will develop
> >  into a full mature soon enough.
> >
> >  However the replies of Marius Przybylski and Zachary Gorden showed
> >  me that's far from being the case. Sorry you guys, you may not
> >  agree with the guy who did, but treating someone who's done
> >  something for the project with the kind of responses you had is
> >  highly immature and just plain stupid. It only harms the project
> >  and confort the opinion that's it's not a friendly environment to
> >  work in. Wonder why there isn't that many devs maybe?
> >
> >  I have little hope you'll actually understand that or act on it but
> >  we'll see...
> >
> >  Francois Prunier 
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  Ros-general mailing list
>  Ros-general(a)reactos.org
>  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-general
>

[Ged Murphy]

Could you point out this harsh reply?

I’m really failing to see any part of this discussion which could be deemed
as being overly harsh.

 

In reality, this is a public mailing list which we (the reactos team) do not
moderate in any way. 

If anyone is sensitive to negative comments of any sort, whether they be
against reactos, for reactos or against any other interest people may have,
then I suggest you moderate yourselves in whatever way best suits you.
Whether that be for inappropriate language, personal infringements or just
your own personal offences, it’s not something we cannot handle personally.
One person’s question is another person’s upset.

 

Regards,

Ged. 

 

 

From: ros-general-bounces(a)reactos.org
[mailto:[e-mail]] On Behalf Of François Prunier
Sent: 04 October 2009 05:39
To: ReactOS General List
Subject: Re: [ros-general] Reaction project announcement

 

Hi Aleksey,

It's not my project at all (it's from David Zaragoza) and I'm related to
this project in any way. My point was just that the responses to David's
announcement were pretty harsh and I felt bad for this guy. 

Now, whether or not including Python is good idea, I do *not* know or care
to be honest. I'm not developing for reactos and whatever decision is taken
in the end will be alright with me and I'll respect it.

But when someone makes the effort of trying to add something to the project,
whether good or bad, it should be recognized, and maybe give some direction
to the guy instead of a harsh reply. 

Now don't get me wrong, I think most of you are doing a really good job, I'm
just worried some might not be open minded enough sometimes. And at this
stage of the project it's critical to get it going.

Best regards,
Francois Prunier



2009/9/28 Aleksey Bragin <aleksey(a)reactos.org>

Dear Francois,

all who is part of our community (those who made a significant or
insignificant contribution to ReactOS, for example, or those who just
think they belong to our community) are free to have and express
their own view on the matter. Our project is all about freedom, and
freedom of speech would be the first one.

Neither me, nor anyone else have stated any official opinion about
your project so far, so no reason to do a drama out of nothing.


With the best regards,
Aleksey Bragin.


On Sep 28, 2009, at 4:03 PM, François Prunier wrote:

>   Hi,
>
>  I decide to join the mailing list to comment on this announcement
>  and the way it has been treated. I've been following the
>  development of this project and had a good hope it will develop
>  into a full mature soon enough.
>
>  However the replies of Marius Przybylski and Zachary Gorden showed
>  me that's far from being the case. Sorry you guys, you may not
>  agree with the guy who did, but treating someone who's done
>  something for the project with the kind of responses you had is
>  highly immature and just plain stupid. It only harms the project
>  and confort the opinion that's it's not a friendly environment to
>  work in. Wonder why there isn't that many devs maybe?
>
>  I have little hope you'll actually understand that or act on it but
>  we'll see...
>
>  Francois Prunier 


_______________________________________________
Ros-general mailing list
Ros-general(a)reactos.org
http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-general

[Ged Murphy]

Clearly that should have said “it’s something we cannot handle personally.”

 

A few too many I think. That new Stella 4 is great though, isn’t it J

 

 

From: Ged Murphy [mailto:[e-mail]] 
Sent: 04 October 2009 07:03
To: 'ReactOS General List'
Subject: RE: [ros-general] Reaction project announcement

 

Could you point out this harsh reply?

I’m really failing to see any part of this discussion which could be deemed
as being overly harsh.

 

In reality, this is a public mailing list which we (the reactos team) do not
moderate in any way. 

If anyone is sensitive to negative comments of any sort, whether they be
against reactos, for reactos or against any other interest people may have,
then I suggest you moderate yourselves in whatever way best suits you.
Whether that be for inappropriate language, personal infringements or just
your own personal offences, it’s not something we cannot handle personally.
One person’s question is another person’s upset.

 

Regards,

Ged. 

 

 

From: ros-general-bounces(a)reactos.org
[mailto:[e-mail]] On Behalf Of François Prunier
Sent: 04 October 2009 05:39
To: ReactOS General List
Subject: Re: [ros-general] Reaction project announcement

 

Hi Aleksey,

It's not my project at all (it's from David Zaragoza) and I'm related to
this project in any way. My point was just that the responses to David's
announcement were pretty harsh and I felt bad for this guy. 

Now, whether or not including Python is good idea, I do *not* know or care
to be honest. I'm not developing for reactos and whatever decision is taken
in the end will be alright with me and I'll respect it.

But when someone makes the effort of trying to add something to the project,
whether good or bad, it should be recognized, and maybe give some direction
to the guy instead of a harsh reply. 

Now don't get me wrong, I think most of you are doing a really good job, I'm
just worried some might not be open minded enough sometimes. And at this
stage of the project it's critical to get it going.

Best regards,
Francois Prunier

2009/9/28 Aleksey Bragin <aleksey(a)reactos.org>

Dear Francois,

all who is part of our community (those who made a significant or
insignificant contribution to ReactOS, for example, or those who just
think they belong to our community) are free to have and express
their own view on the matter. Our project is all about freedom, and
freedom of speech would be the first one.

Neither me, nor anyone else have stated any official opinion about
your project so far, so no reason to do a drama out of nothing.


With the best regards,
Aleksey Bragin.


On Sep 28, 2009, at 4:03 PM, François Prunier wrote:

>   Hi,
>
>  I decide to join the mailing list to comment on this announcement
>  and the way it has been treated. I've been following the
>  development of this project and had a good hope it will develop
>  into a full mature soon enough.
>
>  However the replies of Marius Przybylski and Zachary Gorden showed
>  me that's far from being the case. Sorry you guys, you may not
>  agree with the guy who did, but treating someone who's done
>  something for the project with the kind of responses you had is
>  highly immature and just plain stupid. It only harms the project
>  and confort the opinion that's it's not a friendly environment to
>  work in. Wonder why there isn't that many devs maybe?
>
>  I have little hope you'll actually understand that or act on it but
>  we'll see...
>
>  Francois Prunier 
_______________________________________________
Ros-general mailing list
Ros-general(a)reactos.org
http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-general

[Bernd Blaauw]

Op 4-10-2009 6:39, François Prunier schreef:
>   Hi Aleksey,
>
>  It's not my project at all (it's from /David Zaragoza)/ and I'm 
>  related to this project in any way. My point was just that the 
>  responses to David's announcement were pretty harsh and I felt bad for 
>  this guy.
>
>  Now, whether or not including Python is good idea, I do *not* know or 
>  care to be honest. I'm not developing for reactos and whatever 
>  decision is taken in the end will be alright with me and I'll respect it.
>
>  But when someone makes the effort of trying to add something to the 
>  project, whether good or bad, it should be recognized, and maybe give 
>  some direction to the guy instead of a harsh reply.
>
>  Now don't get me wrong, I think most of you are doing a really good 
>  job, I'm just worried some might not be open minded enough sometimes. 
>  And at this stage of the project it's critical to get it going. 
I've never read the original announcement of this Reaction project 
(where to find it?), nor the responses of it, but it seems to me that 
it's easier to include ReactOS into some distribution that you're 
making/releasing yourself,
than trying to add 3rdparty programs/projects to the ReactOS sourcecode 
repository (which, if I remember correctly, prefers just C [MSVC/GCC) 
and in troublesome cases assembly [NASM?]).
Downside is you'd have to synchronize regularly the updated ReactOS code 
into your own project.

On another subject..any news regarding the release of 0.3.11? A lot of 
work has been done since 0.3.10 but no idea if 0.3.11 would enable 
Firefox/Openoffice to work properly as originally planned.

Bernd

[Johannes Anderwald]

François Prunier schrieb:
>   Hi,
>
>  However the replies of Marius Przybylski and Zachary Gorden showed me 
>  that's far from being the case. Sorry you guys, you may not agree with 
>  the guy who did, but treating someone who's done something for the 
>  project with the kind of responses you had is highly immature and just 
>  plain stupid. It only harms the project and confort the opinion that's 
>  it's not a friendly 
The replies of these two person was rather harsh. However,
the 
anouncement of the Reaction project was welcomed by the majority of 
developers (at least I spoke to).

>   Francois Prunier
>  
WBR,
Johannes Anderwald

[Jacek Rużyczka]

Am Montag 28 September 2009 15:47:50 schrieb Johannes Anderwald:
>   The replies of these two person was rather harsh.
> However, the
>  anouncement of the Reaction project was welcomed by the majority of
>  developers (at least I spoke to).
>  
I would say it this way: To keep a specific technology like Python out of 
ReactOS is simply a matter of politics. Yes, politics. It would be rather wise 
to choose the technology which is most suitable, and when it comes to runtime 
environments, interpreters etc., it is very important to get as many of them 
as possible runnable on ReactOS. This will attract more developers and 
testers.

Yes, ReactOS is not Linux...but it still has one thing in common: It is 
targeted towards those who find Win*** too un-free and expensive.

Cheers
J.R.


----------------------------------------------------------------------
Co godzine losujemy 15 000 z³!
http://link.interia.pl/f2376

[David J. Pogoff]

Hello all.

I have some thoughts about the initial criticism made concerning the use of
Python.  The use of any particular scripting language within the context of
any operating system is the sole decision of the programmer and any
subsequent adopters.  On the other hand, it is important that React OS have
some driving philosophy supporting it.  If the purpose and philosophy of
React OS tend to discourage certain practices, then its devotees will tend
not to use these practices.  Other users who don¹t care may contribute,
instead, to the use of a wide variety of technologies, even if this does not
adhere to the initial purpose of React OS.

I, for one, believe in the importance of adhering to the founding purpose
and philosophy of the development environment in which I work.  This is how
I choose which environments to work in.  In fact, this is a major reason for
the the development of React OS.  We will never, though, be able to prohibit
the work of those who don¹t so adhere ­ nor should we.

Whether Python ³adheres², I do not know.  I am sure this question is subject
to debate.

Regards,

David

David J. Pogoff
djpogoff(a)complexnet.com
Complex Programming Incorporated
-------------------


>   Am Montag 28 September 2009 15:47:50 schrieb Johannes
> Anderwald:
> >   > The replies of these two person was rather
> > harsh. However, the
> >  > anouncement of the Reaction project was welcomed by the majority of
> >  > developers (at least I spoke to).
> >  > 
>  I would say it this way: To keep a specific technology like Python out of
>  ReactOS is simply a matter of politics. Yes, politics. It would be rather wise
>  to choose the technology which is most suitable, and when it comes to runtime
>  environments, interpreters etc., it is very important to get as many of them
>  as possible runnable on ReactOS. This will attract more developers and
>  testers.
>  
>  Yes, ReactOS is not Linux...but it still has one thing in common: It is
>  targeted towards those who find Win*** too un-free and expensive.
>  
>  Cheers
>  J.R.
>  
>  
>  ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>  Co godzine losujemy 15 000 z³!
>  http://link.interia.pl/f2376
>  
>  
>  _______________________________________________
>  Ros-general mailing list
>  Ros-general(a)reactos.org
>  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-general

[Chris Monahan]

ReactOS Mailing List

I'm not a developer, i'm just a follower of the community and enthusiast but
allow me to outline why the decision to not include components that do not
add to the compatibility with the Win32 platform is more than simple
politics.

The way windows works is that it provides a solid OS that has the neccesary
API's to accomodate a healthy ecosystem of third-party software. It also
bends over backwards to enable such third party software to work. I feel
that this emphasis on third party packages and maintaining this ecosystem is
possibly the most important of Windows principles. This is not a principle
of Linux, or rather the third party software ecosystem only really exists on
a source code level. (I'm not counting community repositories as 'third
party' I mean there are pretty much no packages that you can just download,
install and run on any given linux flavour and version.)

That's just the way it works there; arguably it's more secure for Linux, but
it lacks in many ways the flexibility of Windows. For example I cannot
install the latest firefox or OpenOffice in ubuntu without potentially
breaking something - instead I wait for the next release of ubuntu.

ReactOS attempts to provides a synthesis of the opensource values of Linux
and this software flexibility of Windows.

There is a tension, however, when you look at the bigger picture. Microsoft
is a principle developer for it's own platform, and will often bundle things
in an 'integrated' manner within the OS. This, in a sense, defies the
third-party philosophy that should be inherent with the platform. This may
be less of a problem these days as developers and users are more aware, but
it's still an issue.

ReactOS, it seems, attempts to get rid of this tension by harshly pushing
back the line between OS and third-party software - no bundling of anything
that isn''t neccesary to maintain that third-party ecosystem. This is not a
bad thing as it allows this software flexibility to show its strength, but
many who are used to the feature set of linux distros and editions of
Windows are confused. It must be noted that just because ReactOS won't come
with Python, or a media player, or a browser etc does not mean that they
will not be available. Because of the software flexibility inherent in the
platform, it will be a simple matter of downloading a package and running
it.

There's also nothing that anyone can, or should, do to stop people
distributing versions with software packages bundled or 'integrated' a la
the Reaction project. It has been said in the past that such 'distros' would
compromise reactos, creating a nightmare of mutually incompatible systems
like we see in the Linux world. I counter that the nature of the platform is
such that those that break compatibiltiy will neccesarily die out, and to
restrict or condemn third party distros would in fact be damaging to the
strength of a platform with such emphasis on third party software.

The decision to keep ReactOS pure has more to it than simple politics. It is
a principled commitment to the purity of the platform. It, of course, could
be associated with the childish anti-linux stance adopted by a minority of
ReactOS community members, but they do not speak for the project as a whole
and they should largely be ignored in favour of relevent criticisms and
judgements about the roles of each platform.

Chris Monahan

[Bernard]

Hi to All,

 

I just would like to express my feeling about the current little debate about including
Python and such.

 

The thing that puts me off the most is the fact that the newest Windows and Linux
versions/distros are all bundling a lot of
software with their installations.  Now being a advance uses for some time now, I have
found a lot of software I like to use more
that the standard stuff that comes with all the OS's.  Now every time I install a new
copy of Windows, I need to go and remove a lot
of the stuff I don't use, because I found suitable replacements.  For instance I use
Winamp rather that Media Player, or Firefox
rather than Internet Explorer (and recently have started using Chrome more often).  

 

When you install a new OS the size of the installation astonish me everytime.  I looked at
Ubuntu that seems to be so nice according
to everybody, but it uses almost 10Gig after installation.  And look at Vista starting at
7Gig.  I don't want all the gizmo's that
come with them, yet I do not have the choice of installing them or not, I always have to
go and remove them afterwards.  

 

So what I expect from a decent OS is to support all the current hardware (not that I
should come with the drivers, just to be able
to work with the drivers) and to provide a platform that all my other software I like to
use can run on. 

 

I have a lot of PC's running at my house, and I use each one for different purposes,
so having the same set of software on all of
them is just taking up resources and slowing down the more important software I use on
each.  

 

I can't wait for ReactOS to start supporting more API calls or what ever is needed to
allow me to run my everyday software.  

 

Greatings,

Bernard du Toit

[Niels Egberts]

On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 3:40 PM, Bernard <bernarddt(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>  
>  When you install a new OS the size of the installation astonish me
>  everytime.  I looked at Ubuntu that seems to be so nice according to
>  everybody, but it uses almost 10Gig after installation.
>  
Not that it tackles your piont but Ubuntu uses waaay less than 10GB. It
comes on a 700mb disk. The requirements are:
At least 4 GB of disk space (for full installation and swap space)

I think the default installation is below 3Gb I think.

Niels.

[Frank Van Damme]

2009/9/29 Niels Egberts <niels.egberts(a)gmail.com>om>:
>   On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 3:40 PM, Bernard
> <bernarddt(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> >  
> >  When you install a new OS the size of the installation astonish me
> >  everytime.  I looked at Ubuntu that seems to be so nice according to
> >  everybody, but it uses almost 10Gig after installation. 
>  Not that it tackles your piont but Ubuntu uses waaay less than 10GB. It
>  comes on a 700mb disk. The requirements are:
>  At least 4 GB of disk space (for full installation and swap space)
>
>  I think the default installation is below 3Gb I think. 
Something like that, if you take the default full desktop install.

As for Windows, the point is entirely valid off course ;)

-- 
Frank Van Damme

I think I've got the hang of it now:  exit, ^D, ^C, ^\, ^Z, ^Q, ^^,
F6, quit, ZZ, :q, :q!, M-Z, ^X^C, logoff, logout, close, bye, /bye,
stop, end, F3, ~., ^]c, +++ ATH, disconnect, halt,  abort,  hangup,
PF4, F20, ^X^X, :D::D, KJOB, F14-f-e, F8-e,  kill -1 $$,  shutdown,
init 0, kill -9 1, Alt-F4, Ctrl-Alt-Del, AltGr-NumLock, Stop-A, ...
 ...  "Are you sure?"  ...   YES   ...   Phew ...   I'm out

[Bernard]

On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 3:40 PM, Bernard <bernarddt(a)gmail.com> wrote: 

When you install a new OS the size of the installation astonish me everytime.  I looked at
Ubuntu that seems to be so nice according
to everybody, but it uses almost 10Gig after installation. 

Not that it tackles your piont but Ubuntu uses waaay less than 10GB. It comes on a 700mb
disk. The requirements are:
At least 4 GB of disk space (for full installation and swap space)



Thanks for correcting my mistake.  I didn't mean to exaggerate, just didn't do
research on the subject.  I see most people report
the installation at 3gig, with Gnome and KDE included about 5Gig.  


I think the default installation is below 3Gb I think. 

Niels.

 

I wanted to upgrade my Windows installations to Ubuntu about a year ago, but after hearing
it needs that amount of space (I thought
it would be less than 1Gig), I decided to stick to my Windows XP installations that
Install to about 1.7Gig.  

 

Thanks 

Bernard

[Ivan Vodopiviz]

On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 4:17 PM, Bernard <bernarddt(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>   On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 3:40 PM, Bernard
> <bernarddt(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>  I wanted to upgrade my Windows installations to Ubuntu about a year ago, but
>  after hearing it needs that amount of space (I thought it would be less than
>  1Gig), I decided to stick to my Windows XP installations that Install to
>  about 1.7Gig.
>
>
>
>  Thanks
>
>  Bernard 
Just out of curiosity: Does that XP size include a full installation
of OpenOffice? One of the few things I really don't like about Ubuntu
is the fact that they include the full blown OO.org suit by default.
Evolution is another beast that I usually remove 5 minutes after I
finished installing the OS since it sucks and takes quite some space.

Cheers,

-- 
Iván Vodopiviz

[Bernard]

No this is a standard installation of Windows XP with nothing extra installed (and only
the Windows folder). I just looked at an old
laptop I installed XP to use as 'n gateway, and that installation is only 1Gig
(Windows) and 100Mb (Program Files), nothing programs
related installed.  My File Server is at: 1.7Gig (Windows), Program files is 14Gig, quite
a few things installed over time. On my
other File server I used N-Lite to strip a lot out of windows so it's at: 850Mb
(Windows) and 312Mb (Program Files), also have
installed a lot of program files, and the setup of the n-lite windows is only 200Mb. 

-----Original Message-----
From: ros-general-bounces(a)reactos.org [mailto:[e-mail]] On Behalf
Of Ivan Vodopiviz
Sent: 29 September 2009 09:24 PM
To: ReactOS General List
Subject: Re: [ros-general] Keep it Clean

On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 4:17 PM, Bernard <bernarddt(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>   On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 3:40 PM, Bernard
> <bernarddt(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>  I wanted to upgrade my Windows installations to Ubuntu about a year ago, but
>  after hearing it needs that amount of space (I thought it would be less than
>  1Gig), I decided to stick to my Windows XP installations that Install to
>  about 1.7Gig.
>
>
>
>  Thanks
>
>  Bernard 
Just out of curiosity: Does that XP size include a full installation
of OpenOffice? One of the few things I really don't like about Ubuntu
is the fact that they include the full blown OO.org suit by default.
Evolution is another beast that I usually remove 5 minutes after I
finished installing the OS since it sucks and takes quite some space.

Cheers,

-- 
Iván Vodopiviz

_______________________________________________
Ros-general mailing list
Ros-general(a)reactos.org
http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-general

[Timothy J Massey]

ros-general-bounces(a)reactos.org wrote on 09/29/2009 03:49:44 PM:

>   No this is a standard installation of Windows XP with
> nothing extra 
>  installed (and only the Windows folder). I just looked at an old
>  laptop I installed XP to use as 'n gateway, and that installation is
>  only 1Gig (Windows) and 100Mb (Program Files), nothing programs
>  related installed.  My File Server is at: 1.7Gig (Windows), Program 
>  files is 14Gig, quite a few things installed over time. On my
>  other File server I used N-Lite to strip a lot out of windows so 
>  it's at: 850Mb (Windows) and 312Mb (Program Files), also have
>  installed a lot of program files, and the setup of the n-lite 
>  windows is only 200Mb.  
The point is that a Ubuntu install gives you *everything*:  OS, browser, 
e-mail client, full Office suite, games, loads of utilities, etc.  Windows 
doesn't.  So, you're comparing apples to oranges.

If you want a slimmed down install, you might want to look into something 
like CentOS (or Debian).

What would be nice would be either a full-featured installer (so that you 
can pick and choose items), or an n-lite-like tool for Ubuntu.  You may 
want to do some Googling for respinning or remastering Ubuntu.

Or check out Fedora:  it gives you easy, n-lite tools for remixing it:  
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Remix

Tim Massey

>   
>  -----Original Message-----
>  From: ros-general-bounces(a)reactos.org [ 
mailto:[e-mail]
>   ] On Behalf Of Ivan Vodopiviz
>  Sent: 29 September 2009 09:24 PM
>  To: ReactOS General List
>  Subject: Re: [ros-general] Keep it Clean
>  
>  On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 4:17 PM, Bernard <bernarddt(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>  > On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 3:40 PM, Bernard <bernarddt(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>  > I wanted to upgrade my Windows installations to Ubuntu about a year  
ago, but
>   > after hearing it needs that amount of space (I
> thought it would beless  
than
>   > 1Gig), I decided to stick to my Windows XP
> installations that Install  
to
> >   about 1.7Gig.
> >
> >
> >
> >  Thanks
> >
> >  Bernard 
>  
>  Just out of curiosity: Does that XP size include a full installation
>  of OpenOffice? One of the few things I really don't like about Ubuntu
>  is the fact that they include the full blown OO.org suit by default.
>  Evolution is another beast that I usually remove 5 minutes after I
>  finished installing the OS since it sucks and takes quite some space.
>  
>  Cheers,
>  
>  -- 
>  Iván Vodopiviz
>  
>  _______________________________________________
>  Ros-general mailing list
>  Ros-general(a)reactos.org
>  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-general
>  
>  
>  _______________________________________________
>  Ros-general mailing list
>  Ros-general(a)reactos.org
>  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-general

[Bernard]

>   The point is that a Ubuntu install gives you
> *everything*:  OS, browser,  
>   e-mail client, full Office suite, games, loads of
> utilities, etc.  Windows  
>   doesn't.  So, you're comparing apples to
> oranges. 
 

This definitely is a good point.  If you look at it this way, Ubuntu is beating the hell
out of Vista, since with Vista you still
need to install everything else you need.  And then it is wrong comparing Ubuntu with any
other OS in terms of size.

 

If you want a slimmed down install, you might want to look into something 

like CentOS (or Debian).

 

What would be nice would be either a full-featured installer (so that you 

can pick and choose items), or an n-lite-like tool for Ubuntu.  You may 

want to do some Googling for respinning or remastering Ubuntu.

 

If ReactOS would ever consider adding applications to their installation I hope this will
be their approach from the start.  

 

Or check out Fedora:  it gives you easy, n-lite tools for remixing it:  

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Remix

 

Will look into it. Thanks.

 

Bernard 

(South Africa)

[Steve Walters]

I think the whole point is that most distros (Linux, Windows, etc) try
to accommodate the majority of users who are not computer literate. They
just want to push a few buttons and everything is there. That is
wonderful for your parents maybe and others who look at a PC with some
suspicion. But yes there should be an option at install to indicate what
kind of user you are (Novice, Nervous, Newbie, Power-User, etc) and it
should then install accordingly.
 
My tuppence worth
 
Steve 
________________________________

From: ros-general-bounces(a)reactos.org
[mailto:[e-mail]] On Behalf Of Bernard
Sent: 29 September 2009 11:53
To: 'ReactOS General List'
Subject: Re: [ros-general] Keep it Clean



>   The point is that a Ubuntu install gives you
> *everything*:  OS, 
browser, 

>   e-mail client, full Office suite, games, loads of
> utilities, etc. 
Windows 

>   doesn't.  So, you're comparing apples to
> oranges. 
 

This definitely is a good point.  If you look at it this way, Ubuntu is
beating the hell out of Vista, since with Vista you still need to
install everything else you need.  And then it is wrong comparing Ubuntu
with any other OS in terms of size.

 

If you want a slimmed down install, you might want to look into
something 

like CentOS (or Debian).

 

What would be nice would be either a full-featured installer (so that
you 

can pick and choose items), or an n-lite-like tool for Ubuntu.  You may 

want to do some Googling for respinning or remastering Ubuntu.

 

If ReactOS would ever consider adding applications to their installation
I hope this will be their approach from the start.  

 

Or check out Fedora:  it gives you easy, n-lite tools for remixing it:  

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Remix

 

Will look into it. Thanks.

 

Bernard 

(South Africa)



This message is subject to Metropolitans disclaimer pertaining to electronic
communications. To view the disclaimer please visit
http://www.metropolitan.co.za/disclaimer.asp

[Eduardo Menezes]

If space is your worry and you will use it only as gateway / file server /
whatever, try Damn Small Linux (http://www.damnsmalllinux.org/). 50 Mb and
it's fully functional.

2009/9/29 Bernard <bernarddt(a)gmail.com>

>   No this is a standard installation of Windows XP with
> nothing extra
>  installed (and only the Windows folder). I just looked at an old
>  laptop I installed XP to use as 'n gateway, and that installation is only
>  1Gig (Windows) and 100Mb (Program Files), nothing programs
>  related installed.  My File Server is at: 1.7Gig (Windows), Program files
>  is 14Gig, quite a few things installed over time. On my
>  other File server I used N-Lite to strip a lot out of windows so it's at:
>  850Mb (Windows) and 312Mb (Program Files), also have
>  installed a lot of program files, and the setup of the n-lite windows is
>  only 200Mb.
>
>  -----Original Message-----
>  From: ros-general-bounces(a)reactos.org [mailto:
>  ros-general-bounces(a)reactos.org] On Behalf Of Ivan Vodopiviz
>  Sent: 29 September 2009 09:24 PM
>  To: ReactOS General List
>  Subject: Re: [ros-general] Keep it Clean
>
>  On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 4:17 PM, Bernard <bernarddt(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> >   On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 3:40 PM, Bernard
> > <bernarddt(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> >  I wanted to upgrade my Windows installations to Ubuntu about a year ago, 
>  but
> >   after hearing it needs that amount of space (I
> > thought it would be less 
>  than
> >   1Gig), I decided to stick to my Windows XP
> > installations that Install to
> >  about 1.7Gig.
> >
> >
> >
> >  Thanks
> >
> >  Bernard 
>  Just out of curiosity: Does that XP size include a full installation
>  of OpenOffice? One of the few things I really don't like about Ubuntu
>  is the fact that they include the full blown OO.org suit by default.
>  Evolution is another beast that I usually remove 5 minutes after I
>  finished installing the OS since it sucks and takes quite some space.
>
>  Cheers,
>
>  --
>  Iván Vodopiviz
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  Ros-general mailing list
>  Ros-general(a)reactos.org
>  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-general
>
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  Ros-general mailing list
>  Ros-general(a)reactos.org
>  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-general
>  


-- 
Eduardo
"Toda Revolução é IMPOSSÍVEL até que se torne INEVITÁVEL!!!" (Leon Trotsky)

[Kevin Lawton]

I think it is important to ensure that you are actually comparing like for like, if
comparisons are necessary, and not 'apples against oranges'.   
A 'normal' installation of Windows XP is basically just the operating system and a
few tools and utilities to help use it in some basic ways.  Yeah, it takes around a Gig or
so but you are than going to want to install applications to be doing much usefull with it
- and the way in which applications install under Windows impacts both the available space
and the performance of the system badly. 
A 'bare bones' Ubuntu instalation will be somewhat smaller than that, depending
upon just how far you want to go with optimising it.  By default, Ubuntu will let you
install a whole load of useful applications at the same time as you install the op system
which of course will take up more space, but not really impact the prformance of the
system.    
With storage space being so cheap these days, even 16Gb USB memory sticks cost hardly
anything, most people make their choices based around functionality rather than size.  
Basically you one choice if you want to play games and experience all of the latest virus
and spyware threats, and another choice if you are on a restricted budget but want a
secure and efficient system to really get things done on.    
Like the motor manufacturers omit to say:   'You mileage might vary'.      

Kevin Lawton(0161 654 8944 & 07973 303785  
*kepla(a)btinternet.com & kepla56(a)hotmail.com 



________________________________
From: Niels Egberts <niels.egberts(a)gmail.com>
To: ReactOS General List <ros-general(a)reactos.org>
Sent: Tuesday, 29 September, 2009 7:50:23 PM
Subject: Re: [ros-general] Keep it Clean

On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 3:40 PM, Bernard <bernarddt(a)gmail.com> wrote: 
When
>  you install a new OS the size of the installation
> astonish me everytime.  I
> looked at Ubuntu that seems to be so nice according to everybody, but it uses
> almost 10Gig after installation. 
>  
Not that it tackles your piont but Ubuntu uses waaay less than 10GB. It comes on a
700mb disk. The requirements are:
At least 4 GB of disk space (for full installation and swap space)

I think the default installation is below 3Gb I think. 

Niels.

[Patrick Lopez]

Now I like this one. I seriously would love to see ReactOS be successful,
and I'm no developer, but I can say that if we want this to be successful,
then we need to take the winning features from the best of both worlds.
Windows has the flexibility and user-friendliness, and Linux is free. So,
put them together and you have the winning combination right?
On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 7:37 AM, Chris Monahan <
foreverwatcher(a)googlemail.com&gt; wrote:

>   ReactOS Mailing List
>
>  I'm not a developer, i'm just a follower of the community and enthusiast
>  but allow me to outline why the decision to not include components that do
>  not add to the compatibility with the Win32 platform is more than simple
>  politics.
>
>  The way windows works is that it provides a solid OS that has the neccesary
>  API's to accomodate a healthy ecosystem of third-party software. It also
>  bends over backwards to enable such third party software to work. I feel
>  that this emphasis on third party packages and maintaining this ecosystem is
>  possibly the most important of Windows principles. This is not a principle
>  of Linux, or rather the third party software ecosystem only really exists on
>  a source code level. (I'm not counting community repositories as 'third
>  party' I mean there are pretty much no packages that you can just download,
>  install and run on any given linux flavour and version.)
>
>  That's just the way it works there; arguably it's more secure for Linux,
>  but it lacks in many ways the flexibility of Windows. For example I cannot
>  install the latest firefox or OpenOffice in ubuntu without potentially
>  breaking something - instead I wait for the next release of ubuntu.
>
>  ReactOS attempts to provides a synthesis of the opensource values of Linux
>  and this software flexibility of Windows.
>
>  There is a tension, however, when you look at the bigger picture. Microsoft
>  is a principle developer for it's own platform, and will often bundle things
>  in an 'integrated' manner within the OS. This, in a sense, defies the
>  third-party philosophy that should be inherent with the platform. This may
>  be less of a problem these days as developers and users are more aware, but
>  it's still an issue.
>
>  ReactOS, it seems, attempts to get rid of this tension by harshly pushing
>  back the line between OS and third-party software - no bundling of anything
>  that isn''t neccesary to maintain that third-party ecosystem. This is not a
>  bad thing as it allows this software flexibility to show its strength, but
>  many who are used to the feature set of linux distros and editions of
>  Windows are confused. It must be noted that just because ReactOS won't come
>  with Python, or a media player, or a browser etc does not mean that they
>  will not be available. Because of the software flexibility inherent in the
>  platform, it will be a simple matter of downloading a package and running
>  it.
>
>  There's also nothing that anyone can, or should, do to stop people
>  distributing versions with software packages bundled or 'integrated' a la
>  the Reaction project. It has been said in the past that such 'distros' would
>  compromise reactos, creating a nightmare of mutually incompatible systems
>  like we see in the Linux world. I counter that the nature of the platform is
>  such that those that break compatibiltiy will neccesarily die out, and to
>  restrict or condemn third party distros would in fact be damaging to the
>  strength of a platform with such emphasis on third party software.
>
>  The decision to keep ReactOS pure has more to it than simple politics. It
>  is a principled commitment to the purity of the platform. It, of course,
>  could be associated with the childish anti-linux stance adopted by a
>  minority of ReactOS community members, but they do not speak for the project
>  as a whole and they should largely be ignored in favour of relevent
>  criticisms and judgements about the roles of each platform.
>
>  Chris Monahan
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  Ros-general mailing list
>  Ros-general(a)reactos.org
>  http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-general
>