how do you clone?
From: "Stephen Hodges" theteofscuba@hotmail.com Reply-To: ReactOS General List ros-general@reactos.com To: "ReactOS General List" ros-general@reactos.com Subject: Re: [ros-general] Mailing lists Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 20:20:29 -0400
Or you could just ask and not tell them you are cloning it.
Stephen ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Lee Mullins" tomleem@comcast.net To: "ReactOS General List" ros-general@reactos.com Sent: Friday, August 27, 2004 6:46 PM Subject: Re: [ros-general] Mailing lists
Andrew Greenwood wrote:
I can just see it now:
"Can anyone from Microsoft help me to write my own version of Windows?" :D
I guess that would be like asking a shark to help you with a cut that is bleeding.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephen Hodges" theteofscuba@hotmail.com To: ros-general@reactos.com Sent: Friday, August 27, 2004 1:35 AM Subject: [ros-general] Mailing lists
If you are interested in an alternative forum for driver development,
you
may want to check out http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
Considering it's free and it is a fairly active mailing list (probably
the
leading one for that matter) on NT driver development, and frequented
by
Microsoft as well as other leading brand companies, it may be able to
help
you.
Stephen. _______________________________________________ ros-general mailing list ros-general@reactos.com http://reactos.com/mailman/listinfo/ros-general
ros-general mailing list ros-general@reactos.com http://reactos.com/mailman/listinfo/ros-general
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Do not _clone_. Do binary compatible OS.
how do you clone?
From: "Stephen Hodges" theteofscuba@hotmail.com Reply-To: ReactOS General List ros-general@reactos.com To: "ReactOS General List" ros-general@reactos.com Subject: Re: [ros-general] Mailing lists Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 20:20:29 -0400
Or you could just ask and not tell them you are cloning it.
Stephen ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Lee Mullins" tomleem@comcast.net To: "ReactOS General List" ros-general@reactos.com Sent: Friday, August 27, 2004 6:46 PM Subject: Re: [ros-general] Mailing lists
Andrew Greenwood wrote:
I can just see it now:
"Can anyone from Microsoft help me to write my own version of
Windows?"
:D
I guess that would be like asking a shark to help you with a cut
that is
bleeding.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephen Hodges" theteofscuba@hotmail.com To: ros-general@reactos.com Sent: Friday, August 27, 2004 1:35 AM Subject: [ros-general] Mailing lists
If you are interested in an alternative forum for driver development,
you
may want to check out http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
Considering it's free and it is a fairly active mailing list
(probably the
leading one for that matter) on NT driver development, and
frequented by
Microsoft as well as other leading brand companies, it may be able to
help
you.
Stephen. _______________________________________________ ros-general mailing list ros-general@reactos.com http://reactos.com/mailman/listinfo/ros-general
ros-general mailing list ros-general@reactos.com http://reactos.com/mailman/listinfo/ros-general
--
TomLeeMBigWarpGuy - BigMiniGuy - BigDosGuy
eComStationThe OS For the Internet Generation http://www.ecomstation.com
ros-general mailing list ros-general@reactos.com http://reactos.com/mailman/listinfo/ros-general
ros-general mailing list ros-general@reactos.com http://reactos.com/mailman/listinfo/ros-general
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Exactly, though with the DMCA even that may not protect us...
What we really need is a legal team...and a good one at that.
Semyon Novikov wrote:
Do not _clone_. Do binary compatible OS.
how do you clone?
From: "Stephen Hodges" theteofscuba@hotmail.com Reply-To: ReactOS General List ros-general@reactos.com To: "ReactOS General List" ros-general@reactos.com Subject: Re: [ros-general] Mailing lists Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 20:20:29 -0400
Or you could just ask and not tell them you are cloning it.
Stephen ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Lee Mullins" tomleem@comcast.net To: "ReactOS General List" ros-general@reactos.com Sent: Friday, August 27, 2004 6:46 PM Subject: Re: [ros-general] Mailing lists
Andrew Greenwood wrote:
I can just see it now:
"Can anyone from Microsoft help me to write my own version of
Windows?"
:D
I guess that would be like asking a shark to help you with a cut
that is
bleeding.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephen Hodges" theteofscuba@hotmail.com To: ros-general@reactos.com Sent: Friday, August 27, 2004 1:35 AM Subject: [ros-general] Mailing lists
If you are interested in an alternative forum for driver
development, you
may want to check out http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
Considering it's free and it is a fairly active mailing list
(probably the
leading one for that matter) on NT driver development, and
frequented by
Microsoft as well as other leading brand companies, it may be
able to help
you.
Stephen. _______________________________________________ ros-general mailing list ros-general@reactos.com http://reactos.com/mailman/listinfo/ros-general
ros-general mailing list ros-general@reactos.com http://reactos.com/mailman/listinfo/ros-general
--
TomLeeMBigWarpGuy - BigMiniGuy - BigDosGuy
eComStationThe OS For the Internet Generation http://www.ecomstation.com
ros-general mailing list ros-general@reactos.com http://reactos.com/mailman/listinfo/ros-general
ros-general mailing list ros-general@reactos.com http://reactos.com/mailman/listinfo/ros-general
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ros-general mailing list ros-general@reactos.com http://reactos.com/mailman/listinfo/ros-general
groklaw
----- Original Message ----- From: "Betam4x" eek2121@comcast.net To: "ReactOS General List" ros-general@reactos.com Sent: Monday, August 30, 2004 2:37 AM Subject: Re: [ros-general] Mailing lists
Exactly, though with the DMCA even that may not protect us...
What we really need is a legal team...and a good one at that.
Semyon Novikov wrote:
Do not _clone_. Do binary compatible OS.
how do you clone?
From: "Stephen Hodges" theteofscuba@hotmail.com Reply-To: ReactOS General List ros-general@reactos.com To: "ReactOS General List" ros-general@reactos.com Subject: Re: [ros-general] Mailing lists Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 20:20:29 -0400
Or you could just ask and not tell them you are cloning it.
Stephen ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Lee Mullins" tomleem@comcast.net To: "ReactOS General List" ros-general@reactos.com Sent: Friday, August 27, 2004 6:46 PM Subject: Re: [ros-general] Mailing lists
Andrew Greenwood wrote:
I can just see it now:
"Can anyone from Microsoft help me to write my own version of
Windows?"
:D
I guess that would be like asking a shark to help you with a cut
that is
bleeding.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephen Hodges" theteofscuba@hotmail.com To: ros-general@reactos.com Sent: Friday, August 27, 2004 1:35 AM Subject: [ros-general] Mailing lists
>If you are interested in an alternative forum for driver
development, you
>may want to check out >http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer > >Considering it's free and it is a fairly active mailing list
(probably the
>leading one for that matter) on NT driver development, and
frequented by
>Microsoft as well as other leading brand companies, it may be
able to help
>you. > >Stephen. >_______________________________________________ >ros-general mailing list >ros-general@reactos.com >http://reactos.com/mailman/listinfo/ros-general > > >
ros-general mailing list ros-general@reactos.com http://reactos.com/mailman/listinfo/ros-general
--
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eComStationThe OS For the Internet Generation http://www.ecomstation.com
ros-general mailing list ros-general@reactos.com http://reactos.com/mailman/listinfo/ros-general
ros-general mailing list ros-general@reactos.com http://reactos.com/mailman/listinfo/ros-general
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Hi,
--- Betam4x eek2121@comcast.net wrote:
What we really need is a legal team...and a good one at that.
Well we don't have a legal team as much as one lawyer working from my end and Vizzini has another working from his end. I think Vizzini's lawyer friend is in business law as is mine and both agree that what we are doing is 100% legal.
Now for getting a real (Tamlin hates this phrase) "IP lawyer" on our team that is going to cost us some money and I would rather not do that until we need to. Of course you could always put in a good word with RMS and the FSF and I would be happy to accept a scholarship to go study IP law for ReactOS <g>
Thanks Steven
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On Mon, 2004-08-30 at 14:00, Steven Edwards wrote:
Well we don't have a legal team as much as one lawyer working from my end and Vizzini has another working from his end. I think Vizzini's lawyer friend is in business law as is mine and both agree that what we are doing is 100% legal.
My guy just got back to me with additional comments, and basically said "sorry, but this is getting over my head". I'm now trying to get an appointment scheduled with another firm that he recommended me to that specializes in intellectual property. And I hate that phrase too. :)
-sd
If you aren't sure if its legal or not you probably are already aware of the shaky legal grounds, and you might as well assume it is illegal until proven otherwise.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Vizzini" vizzini@reactos.com To: "ReactOS General List" ros-general@reactos.com Sent: Monday, August 30, 2004 3:38 PM Subject: Re: [ros-general] Mailing lists
On Mon, 2004-08-30 at 14:00, Steven Edwards wrote:
Well we don't have a legal team as much as one lawyer working from my end and Vizzini has another working from his end. I think Vizzini's lawyer friend is in business law as is mine and both agree that what we are doing is 100% legal.
My guy just got back to me with additional comments, and basically said "sorry, but this is getting over my head". I'm now trying to get an appointment scheduled with another firm that he recommended me to that specializes in intellectual property. And I hate that phrase too. :)
-sd
ros-general mailing list ros-general@reactos.com http://reactos.com/mailman/listinfo/ros-general
Stephen,
--- Stephen Hodges theteofscuba@hotmail.com wrote:
If you aren't sure if its legal or not you probably are already aware of the shaky legal grounds, and you might as well assume it is illegal until proven otherwise.
I am not attempting to defraud anyone and I live in a country that is based on the free market economy. I refuse to accept that ever action I take could be illegal until it is shown to me otherwise. There is a term in law called "Mens Rea" which translates to legal intent. I am not willfully trying to break any known law and we believe that are actions are 100% legal. If it is found later on that are actions are illegal it is up to the legal system to prove that we had prior knowledge and willfully broke the law. That does not mean that by not knowing the law there is no punishment but it does mean in most cases it is much less. Until such time as someone with a real legal ground says otherwise then we can assume we are still operating within the law.
Also note that I have discussed this with other lawyers and they seem to agree that what we are doing should be legal even if it is not. If that is the case then litigation may be the only course of action long term. That does not mean we should stop working on ReactOS. It means we need to keep working on it and change the law.
Thanks Steven
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The only thing that would really make ReactOS legal here is the DMCA. IF Microsoft chose to push for legal action (see below) then they would use the DMCA.
As to whether microsoft would push for legal action, that is another topic entirely. Going after the ReactOS project would be anti competitive. The courts would CLEARLY see this, as long as we can prove we aren't 'stealing' from them (copying their code, using copyrighted materials, etc.) then we'd actually have a pretty good shot of getting the whole thing thrown out.
The goal here is to have a compatible operating system, but not a clone. Make the user interfaces similar so most users don't have to relearn an operating system, but don't 'copy' any given thing. This invites a court fight.
At any rate, i think it is too early for Microsoft to even be interested in us. ReactOS still runs very few applications. Unless there is a very big push for compatibility, we likely don't have anything to worry about.
Richard
Steven Edwards wrote:
Stephen,
--- Stephen Hodges theteofscuba@hotmail.com wrote:
If you aren't sure if its legal or not you probably are already aware of the shaky legal grounds, and you might as well assume it is illegal until proven otherwise.
I am not attempting to defraud anyone and I live in a country that is based on the free market economy. I refuse to accept that ever action I take could be illegal until it is shown to me otherwise. There is a term in law called "Mens Rea" which translates to legal intent. I am not willfully trying to break any known law and we believe that are actions are 100% legal. If it is found later on that are actions are illegal it is up to the legal system to prove that we had prior knowledge and willfully broke the law. That does not mean that by not knowing the law there is no punishment but it does mean in most cases it is much less. Until such time as someone with a real legal ground says otherwise then we can assume we are still operating within the law.
Also note that I have discussed this with other lawyers and they seem to agree that what we are doing should be legal even if it is not. If that is the case then litigation may be the only course of action long term. That does not mean we should stop working on ReactOS. It means we need to keep working on it and change the law.
Thanks Steven
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Betam4x wrote:
The only thing that would really make ReactOS legal here is the DMCA. IF Microsoft chose to push for legal action (see below) then they would use the DMCA.
As to whether microsoft would push for legal action, that is another topic entirely. Going after the ReactOS project would be anti competitive. The courts would CLEARLY see this, as long as we can prove we aren't 'stealing' from them (copying their code, using copyrighted materials, etc.) then we'd actually have a pretty good shot of getting the whole thing thrown out.
The goal here is to have a compatible operating system, but not a clone. Make the user interfaces similar so most users don't have to relearn an operating system, but don't 'copy' any given thing. This invites a court fight.
At any rate, i think it is too early for Microsoft to even be interested in us. ReactOS still runs very few applications. Unless there is a very big push for compatibility, we likely don't have anything to worry about.
Richard
Steven Edwards wrote:
It is similar to what those developing ODIN is try to do for OS/2-eCS; make it possible to run Win programs without having to use Win os(?). http://odin.netlabs.org http://groups.yahoo.com/group/odinusers
wine/ODIN are both different, they enable users of linux to use apps and programs under linux.
ReactOS on the otherhand, is an operating system, and tries to emulate the look, feel, compatibility of that operating system.
Tom Lee Mullins wrote:
Betam4x wrote:
The only thing that would really make ReactOS legal here is the DMCA. IF Microsoft chose to push for legal action (see below) then they would use the DMCA.
As to whether microsoft would push for legal action, that is another topic entirely. Going after the ReactOS project would be anti competitive. The courts would CLEARLY see this, as long as we can prove we aren't 'stealing' from them (copying their code, using copyrighted materials, etc.) then we'd actually have a pretty good shot of getting the whole thing thrown out.
The goal here is to have a compatible operating system, but not a clone. Make the user interfaces similar so most users don't have to relearn an operating system, but don't 'copy' any given thing. This invites a court fight.
At any rate, i think it is too early for Microsoft to even be interested in us. ReactOS still runs very few applications. Unless there is a very big push for compatibility, we likely don't have anything to worry about.
Richard
Steven Edwards wrote:
It is similar to what those developing ODIN is try to do for OS/2-eCS; make it possible to run Win programs without having to use Win os(?). http://odin.netlabs.org http://groups.yahoo.com/group/odinusers
--- Betam4x eek2121@comcast.net wrote:
wine/ODIN are both different, they enable users of linux to use apps and programs under linux.
ReactOS on the otherhand, is an operating system, and tries to emulate the look, feel, compatibility of that operating system.
And there is nothing wrong with that. If there is a legal issue it should, can and will be changed. My honda looks and acts like my ford as well and is compatible with third party stereo systems as well. The honda is not emulating the ford and we are not emulating Windows. We are replacing it.
Until Microsoft comes knocking on our doors this discussion is just noise.
Thanks Steven
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Betam4x wrote:
wine/ODIN are both different, they enable users of linux to use apps and programs under linux.
ReactOS on the otherhand, is an operating system, and tries to emulate the look, feel, compatibility of that operating system.
Tom Lee Mullins wrote:
Betam4x wrote:
The only thing that would really make ReactOS legal here is the DMCA. IF Microsoft chose to push for legal action (see below) then they would use the DMCA.
As to whether microsoft would push for legal action, that is another topic entirely. Going after the ReactOS project would be anti competitive. The courts would CLEARLY see this, as long as we can prove we aren't 'stealing' from them (copying their code, using copyrighted materials, etc.) then we'd actually have a pretty good shot of getting the whole thing thrown out.
The goal here is to have a compatible operating system, but not a clone. Make the user interfaces similar so most users don't have to relearn an operating system, but don't 'copy' any given thing. This invites a court fight.
At any rate, i think it is too early for Microsoft to even be interested in us. ReactOS still runs very few applications. Unless there is a very big push for compatibility, we likely don't have anything to worry about.
Richard
Steven Edwards wrote:
It is similar to what those developing ODIN is try to do for OS/2-eCS; make it possible to run Win programs without having to use Win os(?). http://odin.netlabs.org http://groups.yahoo.com/group/odinusers
ros-general mailing list ros-general@reactos.com http://reactos.com/mailman/listinfo/ros-general
Thanks for the information.
ODIN is a program to allow users of OS/2 Warp and eComStation to run Win programs without having the Win os and without being part of OS2-Win in Warp.
Steven Edwards wrote:
Stephen,
--- Stephen Hodges theteofscuba@hotmail.com wrote:
If you aren't sure if its legal or not you probably are already aware of the shaky legal grounds, and you might as well assume it is illegal until proven otherwise.
I am not attempting to defraud anyone and I live in a country that is based on the free market economy. I refuse to accept that ever action I take could be illegal until it is shown to me otherwise. There is a term in law called "Mens Rea" which translates to legal intent. I am not willfully trying to break any known law and we believe that are actions are 100% legal. If it is found later on that are actions are illegal it is up to the legal system to prove that we had prior knowledge and willfully broke the law. That does not mean that by not knowing the law there is no punishment but it does mean in most cases it is much less. Until such time as someone with a real legal ground says otherwise then we can assume we are still operating within the law.
Also note that I have discussed this with other lawyers and they seem to agree that what we are doing should be legal even if it is not. If that is the case then litigation may be the only course of action long term. That does not mean we should stop working on ReactOS. It means we need to keep working on it and change the law.
Thanks Steven
Like 'innocent until proven guilty'(?).
Stephen Hodges wrote:
If you aren't sure if its legal or not you probably are already aware of the shaky legal grounds, and you might as well assume it is illegal until proven otherwise.
Ha!
Guilty until proven innocent! French Law perhaps? Ha, could not help my self!
8^o
Trying to keep my self from being eaten by the troll, James
Straight from the Horse's Mouth (Bill Gates thinks that cloning someone else's technology is cool):
“The Road Ahead”, Revised and Updated by Bill Gates, Penguin 1996, ISBN 0-14-024351-8
Chapter 3, Lessons From The Computer Industry "The scalable architecture of the IBM System/360 and its successor, the System/370, drove many of IBM’s competitors out of business and scared away potential newcomers – at least for a while. Then in 1970 Gene Amdahl, who had been a senior engineer at IBM, founded a competing company. Amdahl had a novel business plan. His Amdahl company would build computers fully compatible with the IBM 360 software. Amdahl delivered hardware that not only ran the same operating systems and applications as IBM’s 360 machines but, because it took advantage of new technology, also outperformed IBM’s comparably priced systems. Soon Control Data, Hitachi and Itel (not Intel) all offered mainframes that were “plug-compatible” with IBM’s machines. By the mid-1970s the importance of 360 compatibility was becoming obvious. The only mainframe companies doing well were those whose hardware could run IBM’s operating systems. Before the 360 and its “clones”, computers were intentionally designed to be incompatible with those from other companies because the manufacturer’s goal was to make it discouragingly difficult and expensive for existing customers to switch to a different brand. Once a customer committed to a machine, he or she was stuck with offerings from the computer’s manufacturer because changing the software, while it could be done, was difficult and expensive. Amdahl and the other IBM-compatible companies ended that stranglehold on the customer. Now customers could - and did – choose systems that gave them a choice of hardware suppliers and the widest variety of software applications. Market-driven compatibility proved to be an important lesson for the mainframe and minicomputer industries, and later it was an important lesson for the personal computer industry. It promises to be an important one for the Internet industry as well." Pg41-42[…] "IBM’s early business decisions, which grew out of its rush to get the PC to market, made it easy for other companies to build compatible machines. The architecture was for sale. The microprocessor chips from Intel and Microsoft’s operating system were available to any startup. This openness was a powerful incentive for component builders, software developers, and everybody else in the business. […] Some commentators like to conclude that IBM made a mistake working with Intel and Microsoft to create its PC. They argue that IBM should have kept the PC architecture proprietary and that Intel and Microsoft somehow got the better of IBM. But the commentators are missing the point. IBM became the central force in the PC industry precisely because it was able to harness an incredible amount of innovative talent and entrepreneurial energy and use it to promote its open architecture. IBM set the standards." Pp52-56[…]
On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 08:16, Stephen Hodges wrote:
If you aren't sure if its legal or not you probably are already aware of the shaky legal grounds, and you might as well assume it is illegal until proven otherwise.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Vizzini" vizzini@reactos.com To: "ReactOS General List" ros-general@reactos.com Sent: Monday, August 30, 2004 3:38 PM Subject: Re: [ros-general] Mailing lists
On Mon, 2004-08-30 at 14:00, Steven Edwards wrote:
Well we don't have a legal team as much as one lawyer working from my end and Vizzini has another working from his end. I think Vizzini's lawyer friend is in business law as is mine and both agree that what we are doing is 100% legal.
My guy just got back to me with additional comments, and basically said "sorry, but this is getting over my head". I'm now trying to get an appointment scheduled with another firm that he recommended me to that specializes in intellectual property. And I hate that phrase too. :)
-sd
ros-general mailing list ros-general@reactos.com http://reactos.com/mailman/listinfo/ros-general
ros-general mailing list ros-general@reactos.com http://reactos.com/mailman/listinfo/ros-general
Hi,
--- Wesley Parish wes.parish@paradise.net.nz wrote:
Straight from the Horse's Mouth (Bill Gates thinks that cloning someone else's technology is cool):
I have read as much before. He has said if he was in another situation he would be cloning Windows. Let us not forget as well that other people made DOS so it should only be fair for other people to make a type of Windows.
Thanks Steven
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Precisely! And he has made this a public statement, so it can and will be used against Microsoft should they attempt to interfere.
On Wed, 01 Sep 2004 01:31, Steven Edwards wrote:
Hi,
--- Wesley Parish wes.parish@paradise.net.nz wrote:
Straight from the Horse's Mouth (Bill Gates thinks that cloning someone else's technology is cool):
I have read as much before. He has said if he was in another situation he would be cloning Windows. Let us not forget as well that other people made DOS so it should only be fair for other people to make a type of Windows.
Thanks Steven
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Steven Edwards wrote:
Hi,
--- Wesley Parish wes.parish@paradise.net.nz wrote:
Straight from the Horse's Mouth (Bill Gates thinks that cloning someone else's technology is cool):
I have read as much before. He has said if he was in another situation he would be cloning Windows. Let us not forget as well that other people made DOS so it should only be fair for other people to make a type of Windows.
Thanks Steven
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Probably he is okay with it as long as it does not sound like Windows with its name. Lindows became Linspire after Microsoft paid them alot of money to change the name (after failing to sue them).