Re: [ros-general] Mailing lists

[Inti Carvajal]

how do you clone?

>  From: "Stephen Hodges"
> <theteofscuba(a)hotmail.com>
> Reply-To: ReactOS General List <ros-general(a)reactos.com>
> To: "ReactOS General List" <ros-general(a)reactos.com>
> Subject: Re: [ros-general] Mailing lists
> Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 20:20:29 -0400
>
> Or you could just ask and not tell them  you are cloning it.
>
>
> Stephen
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Tom Lee Mullins" <tomleem(a)comcast.net>
> To: "ReactOS General List" <ros-general(a)reactos.com>
> Sent: Friday, August 27, 2004 6:46 PM
> Subject: Re: [ros-general] Mailing lists
>
>
> >   Andrew Greenwood wrote:
> >
> > >  I can just see it now:
> > >
> > > "Can anyone from Microsoft help me to write my own version of Windows?"
> > > :D
> > >
> > >
> > >  
> >  I guess that would be like asking a shark to help you with a cut that is
> >  bleeding.
> >
> >  >----- Original Message -----
> >  >From: "Stephen Hodges" <theteofscuba(a)hotmail.com>
> >  >To: <ros-general(a)reactos.com>
> >  >Sent: Friday, August 27, 2004 1:35 AM
> >  >Subject: [ros-general] Mailing lists
> >  >
> >  >
> >  >
> >  >
> >  >>If you are interested in an alternative forum for driver development, 
> you
> >   >>may want to check out
> >  >>http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
> >  >>
> >  >>Considering it's free and it is a fairly active mailing list (probably
> the
> >   >>leading one for that matter) on NT driver
> > development, and frequented  
> by
> >   >>Microsoft as well as other leading brand
> > companies, it may be able to 
> help
> > > >  you.
> > > >
> > > > Stephen.
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > ros-general mailing list
> > > > ros-general(a)reactos.com
> > > > http://reactos.com/mailman/listinfo/ros-general
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >  
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > ros-general mailing list
> > > ros-general(a)reactos.com
> > > http://reactos.com/mailman/listinfo/ros-general
> > >
> > >
> > >  
> >
> >  --
> >
> >                     TomLeeM
> >  BigWarpGuy - BigMiniGuy - BigDosGuy
> >  * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
> >                eComStation
> >  The OS For the Internet Generation
> >   http://www.ecomstation.com
> >
> >   * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
> >
> >
> >  _______________________________________________
> >  ros-general mailing list
> >  ros-general(a)reactos.com
> >  http://reactos.com/mailman/listinfo/ros-general
> >  
> _______________________________________________
> ros-general mailing list
> ros-general(a)reactos.com
> http://reactos.com/mailman/listinfo/ros-general 
_________________________________________________________________
The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* 
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[Semyon Novikov]

Do not _clone_. Do binary compatible OS.

>   
>  how do you clone?
>  
> >   From: "Stephen Hodges"
> > <theteofscuba(a)hotmail.com>
> >  Reply-To: ReactOS General List <ros-general(a)reactos.com>
> >  To: "ReactOS General List" <ros-general(a)reactos.com>
> >  Subject: Re: [ros-general] Mailing lists
> >  Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 20:20:29 -0400
> >
> >  Or you could just ask and not tell them  you are cloning it.
> >
> >
> >  Stephen
> >  ----- Original Message -----
> >  From: "Tom Lee Mullins" <tomleem(a)comcast.net>
> >  To: "ReactOS General List" <ros-general(a)reactos.com>
> >  Sent: Friday, August 27, 2004 6:46 PM
> >  Subject: Re: [ros-general] Mailing lists
> >
> >
> > >   Andrew Greenwood wrote:
> > >
> > >  >I can just see it now:
> > >  >
> > >  >"Can anyone from Microsoft help me to write my own version of  
> > Windows?"
> > > >  :D
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >  
> > >  I guess that would be like asking a shark to help you with a cut  
> >  that is
> > >   bleeding.
> > >
> > >  >----- Original Message -----
> > >  >From: "Stephen Hodges" <theteofscuba(a)hotmail.com>
> > >  >To: <ros-general(a)reactos.com>
> > >  >Sent: Friday, August 27, 2004 1:35 AM
> > >  >Subject: [ros-general] Mailing lists
> > >  >
> > >  >
> > >  >
> > >  >
> > >  >>If you are interested in an alternative forum for driver development, 
> >  you
> > >   >>may want to check out
> > >  >>http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
> > >  >>
> > >  >>Considering it's free and it is a fairly active mailing list  
> > (probably
> >  the
> > >   >>leading one for that matter) on NT driver
> > > development, and  
> >  frequented by
> > >   >>Microsoft as well as other leading brand
> > > companies, it may be able to 
> >  help
> > > >  >you.
> > > > >
> > > > >Stephen.
> > > > >_______________________________________________
> > > > >ros-general mailing list
> > > > >ros-general(a)reactos.com
> > > > >http://reactos.com/mailman/listinfo/ros-general
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > ros-general mailing list
> > > > ros-general(a)reactos.com
> > > > http://reactos.com/mailman/listinfo/ros-general
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >  
> > >
> > >  --
> > >
> > >                     TomLeeM
> > >  BigWarpGuy - BigMiniGuy - BigDosGuy
> > >  * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
> > >                eComStation
> > >  The OS For the Internet Generation
> > >   http://www.ecomstation.com
> > >
> > >   * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
> > >
> > >
> > >  _______________________________________________
> > >  ros-general mailing list
> > >  ros-general(a)reactos.com
> > >  http://reactos.com/mailman/listinfo/ros-general
> > >  
> >  _______________________________________________
> >  ros-general mailing list
> >  ros-general(a)reactos.com
> >  http://reactos.com/mailman/listinfo/ros-general 
>  
>  
>  _________________________________________________________________
>  The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* 
>  http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
>  
>  _______________________________________________
>  ros-general mailing list
>  ros-general(a)reactos.com
>  http://reactos.com/mailman/listinfo/ros-general
>  
>   

-- 
wbr
.tappak

.-----------------------------------.
|http://livejournal.com/users/tappak|
'-----------------------------------'

[Betam4x]

Exactly, though with the DMCA even that may not protect us...

What we really need is a legal team...and a good one at that.

Semyon Novikov wrote:

>   Do not _clone_. Do binary compatible OS.
>
> >  
> >  how do you clone?
> >
> > >   From: "Stephen Hodges"
> > > <theteofscuba(a)hotmail.com>
> > >  Reply-To: ReactOS General List <ros-general(a)reactos.com>
> > >  To: "ReactOS General List" <ros-general(a)reactos.com>
> > >  Subject: Re: [ros-general] Mailing lists
> > >  Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 20:20:29 -0400
> > >
> > >  Or you could just ask and not tell them  you are cloning it.
> > >
> > >
> > >  Stephen
> > >  ----- Original Message -----
> > >  From: "Tom Lee Mullins" <tomleem(a)comcast.net>
> > >  To: "ReactOS General List" <ros-general(a)reactos.com>
> > >  Sent: Friday, August 27, 2004 6:46 PM
> > >  Subject: Re: [ros-general] Mailing lists
> > >
> > >
> > > >   Andrew Greenwood wrote:
> > > >
> > > >  >I can just see it now:
> > > >  >
> > > >  >"Can anyone from Microsoft help me to write my own version of  
> > > Windows?"
> > > >   >:D
> > > >  >
> > > >  >
> > > >  >
> > > >  I guess that would be like asking a shark to help you with a cut  
> > >  that is
> > > >   bleeding.
> > > >
> > > >  >----- Original Message -----
> > > >  >From: "Stephen Hodges" <theteofscuba(a)hotmail.com>
> > > >  >To: <ros-general(a)reactos.com>
> > > >  >Sent: Friday, August 27, 2004 1:35 AM
> > > >  >Subject: [ros-general] Mailing lists
> > > >  >
> > > >  >
> > > >  >
> > > >  >
> > > >  >>If you are interested in an alternative forum for driver  
> > >  development,
> > >  you
> > > >   >>may want to check out
> > > >  >>http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
> > > >  >>
> > > >  >>Considering it's free and it is a fairly active mailing list  
> > > (probably
> > >  the
> > > >   >>leading one for that matter) on NT driver
> > > > development, and  
> > >  frequented by
> > > >   >>Microsoft as well as other leading brand
> > > > companies, it may be  
> > >  able to
> > >  help
> > > >   >>you.
> > > >  >>
> > > >  >>Stephen.
> > > >  >>_______________________________________________
> > > >  >>ros-general mailing list
> > > >  >>ros-general(a)reactos.com
> > > >  >>http://reactos.com/mailman/listinfo/ros-general
> > > >  >>
> > > >  >>
> > > >  >>
> > > >  >
> > > >  >_______________________________________________
> > > >  >ros-general mailing list
> > > >  >ros-general(a)reactos.com
> > > >  >http://reactos.com/mailman/listinfo/ros-general
> > > >  >
> > > >  >
> > > >  >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >  --
> > > >
> > > >                     TomLeeM
> > > >  BigWarpGuy - BigMiniGuy - BigDosGuy
> > > >  * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
> > > >                eComStation
> > > >  The OS For the Internet Generation
> > > >   http://www.ecomstation.com
> > > >
> > > >   * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >  _______________________________________________
> > > >  ros-general mailing list
> > > >  ros-general(a)reactos.com
> > > >  http://reactos.com/mailman/listinfo/ros-general
> > > >  
> > >  _______________________________________________
> > >  ros-general mailing list
> > >  ros-general(a)reactos.com
> > >  http://reactos.com/mailman/listinfo/ros-general 
> >
> >
> >  _________________________________________________________________
> >  The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* 
> >  http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
> >
> >  _______________________________________________
> >  ros-general mailing list
> >  ros-general(a)reactos.com
> >  http://reactos.com/mailman/listinfo/ros-general
> >
> >  
>

[Stephen Hodges]

groklaw

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Betam4x" <eek2121(a)comcast.net>
To: "ReactOS General List" <ros-general(a)reactos.com>
Sent: Monday, August 30, 2004 2:37 AM
Subject: Re: [ros-general] Mailing lists


>   Exactly, though with the DMCA even that may not
> protect us...
>  
>  What we really need is a legal team...and a good one at that.
>  
>  Semyon Novikov wrote:
>  
> >   Do not _clone_. Do binary compatible OS.
> >
> > >  
> > >  how do you clone?
> > >
> > > >   From: "Stephen Hodges"
> > > > <theteofscuba(a)hotmail.com>
> > > >  Reply-To: ReactOS General List <ros-general(a)reactos.com>
> > > >  To: "ReactOS General List" <ros-general(a)reactos.com>
> > > >  Subject: Re: [ros-general] Mailing lists
> > > >  Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 20:20:29 -0400
> > > >
> > > >  Or you could just ask and not tell them  you are cloning it.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >  Stephen
> > > >  ----- Original Message -----
> > > >  From: "Tom Lee Mullins" <tomleem(a)comcast.net>
> > > >  To: "ReactOS General List" <ros-general(a)reactos.com>
> > > >  Sent: Friday, August 27, 2004 6:46 PM
> > > >  Subject: Re: [ros-general] Mailing lists
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >  > Andrew Greenwood wrote:
> > > >  >
> > > >  > >I can just see it now:
> > > >  > >
> > > >  > >"Can anyone from Microsoft help me to write my own version of 
> > > >  Windows?"
> > > >  > >:D
> > > >  > >
> > > >  > >
> > > >  > >
> > > >  > I guess that would be like asking a shark to help you with a cut 
> > > >  that is
> > > >  > bleeding.
> > > >  >
> > > >  > >----- Original Message -----
> > > >  > >From: "Stephen Hodges" <theteofscuba(a)hotmail.com>
> > > >  > >To: <ros-general(a)reactos.com>
> > > >  > >Sent: Friday, August 27, 2004 1:35 AM
> > > >  > >Subject: [ros-general] Mailing lists
> > > >  > >
> > > >  > >
> > > >  > >
> > > >  > >
> > > >  > >>If you are interested in an alternative forum for driver 
> > > >  development,
> > > >  you
> > > >  > >>may want to check out
> > > >  > >>http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
> > > >  > >>
> > > >  > >>Considering it's free and it is a fairly active mailing list 
> > > >  (probably
> > > >  the
> > > >  > >>leading one for that matter) on NT driver development, and 
> > > >  frequented by
> > > >  > >>Microsoft as well as other leading brand companies, it may be 
> > > >  able to
> > > >  help
> > > >  > >>you.
> > > >  > >>
> > > >  > >>Stephen.
> > > >  > >>_______________________________________________
> > > >  > >>ros-general mailing list
> > > >  > >>ros-general(a)reactos.com
> > > >  > >>http://reactos.com/mailman/listinfo/ros-general
> > > >  > >>
> > > >  > >>
> > > >  > >>
> > > >  > >
> > > >  > >_______________________________________________
> > > >  > >ros-general mailing list
> > > >  > >ros-general(a)reactos.com
> > > >  > >http://reactos.com/mailman/listinfo/ros-general
> > > >  > >
> > > >  > >
> > > >  > >
> > > >  >
> > > >  >
> > > >  > --
> > > >  >
> > > >  >                    TomLeeM
> > > >  > BigWarpGuy - BigMiniGuy - BigDosGuy
> > > >  > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
> > > >  >               eComStation
> > > >  > The OS For the Internet Generation
> > > >  >  http://www.ecomstation.com
> > > >  >
> > > >  >  * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
> > > >  >
> > > >  >
> > > >  > _______________________________________________
> > > >  > ros-general mailing list
> > > >  > ros-general(a)reactos.com
> > > >  > http://reactos.com/mailman/listinfo/ros-general
> > > >  >
> > > >  _______________________________________________
> > > >  ros-general mailing list
> > > >  ros-general(a)reactos.com
> > > >  http://reactos.com/mailman/listinfo/ros-general 
> > >
> > >
> > >  _________________________________________________________________
> > >  The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* 
> > >  http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
> > >
> > >  _______________________________________________
> > >  ros-general mailing list
> > >  ros-general(a)reactos.com
> > >  http://reactos.com/mailman/listinfo/ros-general
> > >
> > >  
> >  
>  
>  _______________________________________________
>  ros-general mailing list
>  ros-general(a)reactos.com
>  http://reactos.com/mailman/listinfo/ros-general
>

[Steven Edwards]

Hi,

--- Betam4x <eek2121(a)comcast.net> wrote:
>   What we really need is a legal team...and a good one
> at that. 
Well we don't have a legal team as much as one lawyer working from my
end and Vizzini has another working from his end. I think Vizzini's
lawyer friend is in business law as is mine and both agree that what we
are doing is 100% legal.

Now for getting a real (Tamlin hates this phrase) "IP lawyer" on our
team that is going to cost us some money and I would rather not do that
until we need to. Of course you could always put in a good word with
RMS and the FSF and I would be happy to accept a scholarship to go
study IP law for ReactOS <g>

Thanks
Steven


		
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[Vizzini]

On Mon, 2004-08-30 at 14:00, Steven Edwards wrote:
>   Well we don't have a legal team as much as one
> lawyer working from my
>  end and Vizzini has another working from his end. I think Vizzini's
>  lawyer friend is in business law as is mine and both agree that what we
>  are doing is 100% legal. 
My guy just got back to me with additional comments, and basically said
"sorry, but this is getting over my head".  I'm now trying to get an
appointment scheduled with another firm that he recommended me to that
specializes in intellectual property.  And I hate that phrase too. :)

 -sd

[Stephen Hodges]

If you aren't sure if its legal or not you probably are already aware of the
shaky legal grounds, and you might as well assume it is illegal until proven
otherwise.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Vizzini" <vizzini(a)reactos.com>
To: "ReactOS General List" <ros-general(a)reactos.com>
Sent: Monday, August 30, 2004 3:38 PM
Subject: Re: [ros-general] Mailing lists


>   On Mon, 2004-08-30 at 14:00, Steven Edwards wrote:
> >   Well we don't have a legal team as much as
> > one lawyer working from my
> >  end and Vizzini has another working from his end. I think Vizzini's
> >  lawyer friend is in business law as is mine and both agree that what we
> >  are doing is 100% legal. 
>  My guy just got back to me with additional comments, and basically said
>  "sorry, but this is getting over my head".  I'm now trying to get an
>  appointment scheduled with another firm that he recommended me to that
>  specializes in intellectual property.  And I hate that phrase too. :)
>
>   -sd
>
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  ros-general mailing list
>  ros-general(a)reactos.com
>  http://reactos.com/mailman/listinfo/ros-general
>

[Steven Edwards]

Stephen,

--- Stephen Hodges <theteofscuba(a)hotmail.com> wrote:
>   If you aren't sure if its legal or not you
> probably are already aware
>  of the
>  shaky legal grounds, and you might as well assume it is illegal until
>  proven
>  otherwise. 
I am not attempting to defraud anyone and I live in a country that is
based on the free market economy. I refuse to accept that ever action I
take could be illegal until it is shown to me otherwise. There is a
term in law called "Mens Rea" which translates to legal intent. I am
not willfully trying to break any known law and we believe that are
actions are 100% legal. If it is found later on that are actions are
illegal it is up to the legal system to prove that we had prior
knowledge and willfully broke the law. That does not mean that by not
knowing the law there is no punishment but it does mean in most cases
it is much less. Until such time as someone with a real legal ground
says otherwise then we can assume we are still operating within the
law.

Also note that I have discussed this with other lawyers and they seem
to agree that what we are doing should be legal even if it is not. If
that is the case then litigation may be the only course of action long
term. That does not mean we should stop working on ReactOS. It means we
need to keep working on it and change the law.

Thanks
Steven


		
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[Betam4x]

The only thing that would really make ReactOS legal here is the DMCA.  
IF Microsoft chose to push for legal action (see below) then they would 
use the DMCA.

As to whether microsoft would push for legal action, that is another 
topic entirely.  Going after the ReactOS project would be anti 
competitive.  The courts would CLEARLY see this, as long as we can prove 
we aren't 'stealing' from them (copying their code, using copyrighted 
materials, etc.) then we'd actually have a pretty good shot of getting 
the whole thing thrown out.

The goal here is to have a compatible operating system, but not a 
clone.  Make the user interfaces similar so most users don't have to 
relearn an operating system, but don't 'copy' any given thing.  This 
invites a court fight.

At any rate, i think it is too early for Microsoft to even be interested 
in us.  ReactOS still runs very few applications.  Unless there is a 
very big push for compatibility, we likely don't have anything to worry 
about.

Richard

Steven Edwards wrote:

>  Stephen,
>
> --- Stephen Hodges <theteofscuba(a)hotmail.com> wrote:
>   
>
> >  If you aren't sure if its legal or not you
> > probably are already aware
> > of the
> > shaky legal grounds, and you might as well assume it is illegal until
> > proven
> > otherwise.
> >     
> >  
> I am not attempting to defraud anyone and I live in a country that is
> based on the free market economy. I refuse to accept that ever action I
> take could be illegal until it is shown to me otherwise. There is a
> term in law called "Mens Rea" which translates to legal intent. I am
> not willfully trying to break any known law and we believe that are
> actions are 100% legal. If it is found later on that are actions are
> illegal it is up to the legal system to prove that we had prior
> knowledge and willfully broke the law. That does not mean that by not
> knowing the law there is no punishment but it does mean in most cases
> it is much less. Until such time as someone with a real legal ground
> says otherwise then we can assume we are still operating within the
> law.
>
> Also note that I have discussed this with other lawyers and they seem
> to agree that what we are doing should be legal even if it is not. If
> that is the case then litigation may be the only course of action long
> term. That does not mean we should stop working on ReactOS. It means we
> need to keep working on it and change the law.
>
> Thanks
> Steven
>
>
> 		
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages!
> http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail 
> _______________________________________________
> ros-general mailing list
> ros-general(a)reactos.com
> http://reactos.com/mailman/listinfo/ros-general
>
>   
>

[Tom Lee Mullins]

Betam4x wrote:

>   The only thing that would really make ReactOS legal
> here is the DMCA.  
>  IF Microsoft chose to push for legal action (see below) then they 
>  would use the DMCA.
>
>  As to whether microsoft would push for legal action, that is another 
>  topic entirely.  Going after the ReactOS project would be anti 
>  competitive.  The courts would CLEARLY see this, as long as we can 
>  prove we aren't 'stealing' from them (copying their code, using 
>  copyrighted materials, etc.) then we'd actually have a pretty good 
>  shot of getting the whole thing thrown out.
>
>  The goal here is to have a compatible operating system, but not a 
>  clone.  Make the user interfaces similar so most users don't have to 
>  relearn an operating system, but don't 'copy' any given thing.  This 
>  invites a court fight.
>
>  At any rate, i think it is too early for Microsoft to even be 
>  interested in us.  ReactOS still runs very few applications.  Unless 
>  there is a very big push for compatibility, we likely don't have 
>  anything to worry about.
>
>  Richard
>
>  Steven Edwards wrote:
>  
It is similar to what those developing ODIN is try to do for OS/2-eCS; 
make it possible
to run Win programs without having to use Win os(?).
http://odin.netlabs.org
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/odinusers

-- 

                   TomLeeM
BigWarpGuy - BigMiniGuy - BigDosGuy
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *  
              eComStation
The OS For the Internet Generation
 http://www.ecomstation.com

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[Betam4x]

wine/ODIN are both different, they enable users of linux to use apps and 
programs under linux.

ReactOS on the otherhand, is an operating system, and tries to emulate 
the look, feel, compatibility of that operating system.

Tom Lee Mullins wrote:

>   Betam4x wrote:
>
> >   The only thing that would really make ReactOS
> > legal here is the 
> >  DMCA.  IF Microsoft chose to push for legal action (see below) then 
> >  they would use the DMCA.
> >
> >  As to whether microsoft would push for legal action, that is another 
> >  topic entirely.  Going after the ReactOS project would be anti 
> >  competitive.  The courts would CLEARLY see this, as long as we can 
> >  prove we aren't 'stealing' from them (copying their code, using 
> >  copyrighted materials, etc.) then we'd actually have a pretty good 
> >  shot of getting the whole thing thrown out.
> >
> >  The goal here is to have a compatible operating system, but not a 
> >  clone.  Make the user interfaces similar so most users don't have to 
> >  relearn an operating system, but don't 'copy' any given thing.  This 
> >  invites a court fight.
> >
> >  At any rate, i think it is too early for Microsoft to even be 
> >  interested in us.  ReactOS still runs very few applications.  Unless 
> >  there is a very big push for compatibility, we likely don't have 
> >  anything to worry about.
> >
> >  Richard
> >
> >  Steven Edwards wrote:
> >  
>  It is similar to what those developing ODIN is try to do for OS/2-eCS; 
>  make it possible
>  to run Win programs without having to use Win os(?).
>  http://odin.netlabs.org
>  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/odinusers
>

[Steven Edwards]

--- Betam4x <eek2121(a)comcast.net> wrote:
>   wine/ODIN are both different, they enable users of
> linux to use apps
>  and 
>  programs under linux.
>  
>  ReactOS on the otherhand, is an operating system, and tries to
>  emulate 
>  the look, feel, compatibility of that operating system. 
And there is nothing wrong with that. If there is a legal issue it
should, can and will be changed. My honda looks and acts like my ford
as well and is compatible with third party stereo systems as well. The
honda is not emulating the ford and we are not emulating Windows. We
are replacing it.

Until Microsoft comes knocking on our doors this discussion is just
noise.

Thanks
Steven



	
		
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[Tom Lee Mullins]

Betam4x wrote:

>   wine/ODIN are both different, they enable users of
> linux to use apps 
>  and programs under linux.
>
>  ReactOS on the otherhand, is an operating system, and tries to emulate 
>  the look, feel, compatibility of that operating system.
>
>  Tom Lee Mullins wrote:
>
> >   Betam4x wrote:
> >
> > >   The only thing that would really make ReactOS
> > > legal here is the 
> > >  DMCA.  IF Microsoft chose to push for legal action (see below) then 
> > >  they would use the DMCA.
> > >
> > >  As to whether microsoft would push for legal action, that is another 
> > >  topic entirely.  Going after the ReactOS project would be anti 
> > >  competitive.  The courts would CLEARLY see this, as long as we can 
> > >  prove we aren't 'stealing' from them (copying their code, using 
> > >  copyrighted materials, etc.) then we'd actually have a pretty good 
> > >  shot of getting the whole thing thrown out.
> > >
> > >  The goal here is to have a compatible operating system, but not a 
> > >  clone.  Make the user interfaces similar so most users don't have to 
> > >  relearn an operating system, but don't 'copy' any given thing.  This 
> > >  invites a court fight.
> > >
> > >  At any rate, i think it is too early for Microsoft to even be 
> > >  interested in us.  ReactOS still runs very few applications.  Unless 
> > >  there is a very big push for compatibility, we likely don't have 
> > >  anything to worry about.
> > >
> > >  Richard
> > >
> > >  Steven Edwards wrote:
> > >  
> >  It is similar to what those developing ODIN is try to do for 
> >  OS/2-eCS; make it possible
> >  to run Win programs without having to use Win os(?).
> >  http://odin.netlabs.org
> >  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/odinusers
> >  
>  _______________________________________________
>  ros-general mailing list
>  ros-general(a)reactos.com
>  http://reactos.com/mailman/listinfo/ros-general
>  
Thanks for the information.

ODIN is a program to allow users of OS/2 Warp and eComStation to run Win 
programs without having the Win os and without being part of OS2-Win in 
Warp.

-- 

                   TomLeeM
BigWarpGuy - BigMiniGuy - BigDosGuy
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *  
              eComStation
The OS For the Internet Generation
 http://www.ecomstation.com

 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

[Tom Lee Mullins]

Steven Edwards wrote:

>  Stephen,
>
> --- Stephen Hodges <theteofscuba(a)hotmail.com> wrote:
>   
>
> >  If you aren't sure if its legal or not you
> > probably are already aware
> > of the
> > shaky legal grounds, and you might as well assume it is illegal until
> > proven
> > otherwise.
> >     
> >  
> I am not attempting to defraud anyone and I live in a country that is
> based on the free market economy. I refuse to accept that ever action I
> take could be illegal until it is shown to me otherwise. There is a
> term in law called "Mens Rea" which translates to legal intent. I am
> not willfully trying to break any known law and we believe that are
> actions are 100% legal. If it is found later on that are actions are
> illegal it is up to the legal system to prove that we had prior
> knowledge and willfully broke the law. That does not mean that by not
> knowing the law there is no punishment but it does mean in most cases
> it is much less. Until such time as someone with a real legal ground
> says otherwise then we can assume we are still operating within the
> law.
>
> Also note that I have discussed this with other lawyers and they seem
> to agree that what we are doing should be legal even if it is not. If
> that is the case then litigation may be the only course of action long
> term. That does not mean we should stop working on ReactOS. It means we
> need to keep working on it and change the law.
>
> Thanks
> Steven
>
>
>   
>  
Like 'innocent until proven guilty'(?).

-- 

                   TomLeeM
BigWarpGuy - BigMiniGuy - BigDosGuy
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *  
              eComStation
The OS For the Internet Generation
 http://www.ecomstation.com

 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

[James Tabor]

Stephen Hodges wrote:
>   If you aren't sure if its legal or not you
> probably are already aware of the
>  shaky legal grounds, and you might as well assume it is illegal until proven
>  otherwise.
>   
Ha!

Guilty until proven innocent! French Law perhaps? Ha, could not help my self!

8^o

Trying to keep my self from being eaten by the troll,
James

[Wesley Parish]

Straight from the Horse's Mouth (Bill Gates thinks that cloning someone else's 
technology is cool):

“The Road Ahead”, Revised and Updated by Bill Gates, Penguin 1996, ISBN 
0-14-024351-8

Chapter 3, Lessons From The Computer Industry
"The scalable architecture of the IBM System/360 and its successor, the 
System/370, drove many of IBM’s competitors out of business and scared away 
potential newcomers – at least for a while.  Then in 1970 Gene Amdahl, who 
had been a senior engineer at IBM, founded a competing company.  Amdahl had a 
novel business plan.  His Amdahl company would build computers fully 
compatible with the IBM 360 software.  Amdahl delivered hardware that not 
only ran the same operating systems and applications as IBM’s 360 machines 
but, because it took advantage of new technology, also outperformed IBM’s 
comparably priced systems.  Soon Control Data, Hitachi and Itel (not Intel) 
all offered mainframes that were “plug-compatible” with IBM’s machines.  By 
the mid-1970s the importance of 360 compatibility was becoming obvious.  The 
only mainframe companies doing well were those whose hardware could run IBM’s 
operating systems.
Before the 360 and its “clones”, computers were intentionally designed to be 
incompatible with those from other companies because the manufacturer’s goal 
was to make it discouragingly difficult and expensive for existing customers 
to switch to a different brand.  Once a customer committed to a machine, he 
or she was stuck with offerings from the computer’s manufacturer because 
changing the software, while it could be done, was difficult and expensive.  
Amdahl and the other IBM-compatible companies ended that stranglehold on the 
customer.  Now customers could - and did – choose systems that gave them a 
choice of hardware suppliers and the widest variety of software applications.  
Market-driven compatibility proved to be an important lesson for the 
mainframe and minicomputer industries, and later it was an important lesson 
for the personal computer industry.  It promises to be an important one for 
the Internet industry as well."
Pg41-42[…]
"IBM’s early business decisions, which grew out of its rush to get the PC to 
market, made it easy for other companies to build compatible machines.  The 
architecture was for sale.  The microprocessor chips from Intel and 
Microsoft’s operating system were available to any startup.  This openness 
was a powerful incentive for component builders, software developers, and 
everybody else in the business.
[…]
Some commentators like to conclude that IBM made a mistake working with Intel 
and Microsoft to create its PC.  They argue that IBM should have kept the PC 
architecture proprietary and that Intel and Microsoft somehow got the better 
of IBM.  But the commentators are missing the point.  IBM became the central 
force in the PC industry precisely because it was able to harness an 
incredible amount of innovative talent and entrepreneurial energy and use it 
to promote its open architecture.  IBM set the standards."
Pp52-56[…]

On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 08:16, Stephen Hodges wrote:
>   If you aren't sure if its legal or not you
> probably are already aware of
>  the shaky legal grounds, and you might as well assume it is illegal until
>  proven otherwise.
>
>  ----- Original Message -----
>  From: "Vizzini" <vizzini(a)reactos.com>
>  To: "ReactOS General List" <ros-general(a)reactos.com>
>  Sent: Monday, August 30, 2004 3:38 PM
>  Subject: Re: [ros-general] Mailing lists
>
> >   On Mon, 2004-08-30 at 14:00, Steven Edwards
> > wrote:
> > >   Well we don't have a legal team as much as
> > > one lawyer working from my
> > >  end and Vizzini has another working from his end. I think Vizzini's
> > >  lawyer friend is in business law as is mine and both agree that what we
> > >  are doing is 100% legal. 
> >  My guy just got back to me with additional comments, and basically said
> >  "sorry, but this is getting over my head".  I'm now trying to get an
> >  appointment scheduled with another firm that he recommended me to that
> >  specializes in intellectual property.  And I hate that phrase too. :)
> >
> >   -sd
> >
> >
> >  _______________________________________________
> >  ros-general mailing list
> >  ros-general(a)reactos.com
> >  http://reactos.com/mailman/listinfo/ros-general 
>  _______________________________________________
>  ros-general mailing list
>  ros-general(a)reactos.com
>  http://reactos.com/mailman/listinfo/ros-general 
-- 
Wesley Parish
* * *
Clinersterton beademung - in all of love.  RIP James Blish
* * *
Mau e ki, "He aha te mea nui?"
You ask, "What is the most important thing?"
Maku e ki, "He tangata, he tangata, he tangata."
I reply, "It is people, it is people, it is people."

[Steven Edwards]

Hi,

--- Wesley Parish <wes.parish(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote:
>   Straight from the Horse's Mouth (Bill Gates thinks
> that cloning
>  someone else's 
>  technology is cool): 
I have read as much before. He has said if he was in another situation
he would be cloning Windows. Let us not forget as well that other
people made DOS so it should only be fair for other people to make a
type of Windows.

Thanks
Steven



		
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[Wesley Parish]

Precisely!  And he has made this a public statement, so it can and will be 
used against Microsoft should they attempt to interfere.

On Wed, 01 Sep 2004 01:31, Steven Edwards wrote:
>   Hi,
>
>  --- Wesley Parish <wes.parish(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote:
> >   Straight from the Horse's Mouth (Bill Gates
> > thinks that cloning
> >  someone else's
> >  technology is cool): 
>  I have read as much before. He has said if he was in another situation
>  he would be cloning Windows. Let us not forget as well that other
>  people made DOS so it should only be fair for other people to make a
>  type of Windows.
>
>  Thanks
>  Steven
>
>
>
>
>  _______________________________
>  Do you Yahoo!?
>  Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now.
>  http://promotions.yahoo.com/goldrush
>  _______________________________________________
>  ros-general mailing list
>  ros-general(a)reactos.com
>  http://reactos.com/mailman/listinfo/ros-general 
-- 
Wesley Parish
* * *
Clinersterton beademung - in all of love.  RIP James Blish
* * *
Mau e ki, "He aha te mea nui?"
You ask, "What is the most important thing?"
Maku e ki, "He tangata, he tangata, he tangata."
I reply, "It is people, it is people, it is people."

[Tom Lee Mullins]

Steven Edwards wrote:

>  Hi,
>
> --- Wesley Parish <wes.parish(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote:
>   
>
> >  Straight from the Horse's Mouth (Bill Gates
> > thinks that cloning
> > someone else's 
> > technology is cool):
> >     
> >  
> I have read as much before. He has said if he was in another situation
> he would be cloning Windows. Let us not forget as well that other
> people made DOS so it should only be fair for other people to make a
> type of Windows.
>
> Thanks
> Steven
>
>
>
> 		
> _______________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now.
> http://promotions.yahoo.com/goldrush
> _______________________________________________
> ros-general mailing list
> ros-general(a)reactos.com
> http://reactos.com/mailman/listinfo/ros-general
>
>   
>  
Probably he is okay with it as long as it does not sound like Windows 
with its name.
Lindows became Linspire after Microsoft paid them alot of money to 
change the name
(after failing to sue them).

-- 

                   TomLeeM
BigWarpGuy - BigMiniGuy - BigDosGuy
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *  
              eComStation
The OS For the Internet Generation
 http://www.ecomstation.com

 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *